12 Sep
2001
12 Sep
'01
5:58 a.m.
I have to say that I agree with the original
part of this - I have been discussing this
with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and
yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're
not involved) that I would definately take
the risk... the chances are you're gonna die
anyway. If the plane was on the ground or
part of a "hostage scenario" thats different
but I am surprised not one person would have
tried anything. But who knows... perhaps they
did.
Just my thoughts.
Unfortunately, I think you're mistaken here, Bill.
The typical American of
today hasn't the courage to risk his life as an individual, even if it means
being slaughtered as part of a group. That same American hasn't the courage to
call the cops if he sees someone breaking into his neighbor's house or car,
because he fears being singled out as an honest individual, rather than part of
the corrupt masses.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Sudbrink" <wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash...
Mike Ford [mikeford(a)socal.rr.com] wrote:
Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be
repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too
effective, for other organizations not to try
it again.
I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that
most airline hijacking will cease to be effective.
I think that, after this, any able bodied person
on a hijacked plane will resist with their life.
I know that I would, rather than die as part of
an instrument used to kill many more.
12 Sep
12 Sep
6:32 a.m.
The problem is, a lot of planes that are hijaked in the the air are being
diverted for an "on the ground, they'll let us go after they get to iraq (or
wherever" type scenario. This is probably what the passengers thought was
going on (in which case it would be better to just cooperate and wait till
they let you go), until it was too late...
In fact, I don't know of any previous hijacking scenario where the whole point
was to fly the plane into something to destroy it, rather then to take the
plane somewhere other then the intended destination; hijackings do take place
all the time in other parts of the world, though, so it might happen and I
just don't know about it. Anyone else have any idea?
marino13(a)btopenworld.com said:
I have to say that I agree with the original
part of this - I have been discussing this
with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and
yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're
not involved) that I would definately take
the risk... the chances are you're gonna die
anyway. If the plane was on the ground or
part of a "hostage scenario" thats different
but I am surprised not one person would have
tried anything. But who knows... perhaps they
did.
Just my thoughts.
> Unfortunately, I think you're mistaken here, Bill. The typical American of
> today hasn't the courage to risk his life as an individual, even if it means
> being slaughtered as part of a group. That same American hasn't the courage to
> call the cops if he sees someone breaking into his neighbor's house or car,
> because he fears being singled out as an honest individual, rather than part of
> the corrupt masses.
>
> Dick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Sudbrink" <wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net>
> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:10 AM
> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash...
>
>
> >
> > Mike Ford [mikeford(a)socal.rr.com] wrote:
> >
> > > Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be
> > > repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too
> > > effective, for other organizations not to try
> > > it again.
> >
> > I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that
> > most airline hijacking will cease to be effective.
> > I think that, after this, any able bodied person
> > on a hijacked plane will resist with their life.
> > I know that I would, rather than die as part of
> > an instrument used to kill many more.
> >
> >
>
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
8:22 a.m.
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Dan Wright wrote:
The problem is, a lot of planes that are hijaked in
the the air are
being diverted for an "on the ground, they'll let us go after they get
to iraq (or wherever" type scenario. This is probably what the
passengers thought was going on (in which case it would be better to
just cooperate and wait till they let you go), until it was too
late...
For the record, I doubt anyone would be hijacking a plane with the intent
of flying it to Iraq. That would be pretty pointless :)
In fact, I don't know of any previous hijacking
scenario where the
whole point was to fly the plane into something to destroy it, rather
then to take the plane somewhere other then the intended destination;
hijackings do take place all the time in other parts of the world,
though, so it might happen and I just don't know about it. Anyone
else have any idea?
This is pretty unprecedented, and heralds a new type of terrorism that's
even more evil and sinister than anything seen before.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
9:41 a.m.
Re:
In fact, I don't know of any previous hijacking
scenario where the whole point
was to fly the plane into something to destroy it, rather then to take the
plane somewhere other then the intended destination; hijackings do take place
all the time in other parts of the world, though, so it might happen and I
just don't know about it. Anyone else have any idea?
In between (i.e, no specific destination, but a crash was desired)
...a man tried to hijack and crash a plane here in California
a couple of years ago (IIRC, the flight was from Southern California up to
Northern California). The cockpit crew overpowered
him, and landed safely. IIRC, the criminal venue was in San Francisco, and the
defense attorney tried to get bail for the client, on the grounds that he had
been mentally disturbed before, but was now "okay". (Don't recall what
happened.)
Stan Sieler sieler(a)allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler
10:04 a.m.
Back in the sixties/seventies, the US authorities were afraid that
it could be done on a nuclear powerplant. It seems the designed
the containmenthull of nuclear powerplants to resist such an event.
Sipke de Wal
-------------------------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
-------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Stan Sieler <sieler(a)allegro.com>
To: Dan Wright <dtwright(a)uiuc.edu>du>; <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash...
the
Re:
> In fact, I don't know of any previous hijacking scenario where the whole
point
> was to fly the plane into something to destroy
it, rather then to take the
> plane somewhere other then the intended destination; hijackings do take
place
all the time
in other parts of the world, though, so it might happen and I
just don't know about it. Anyone else have any idea?
In between (i.e, no specific destination, but a crash was desired)
...a man tried to hijack and crash a plane here in California
a couple of years ago (IIRC, the flight was from Southern California up to
Northern California). The cockpit crew overpowered
him, and landed safely. IIRC, the criminal venue was in San Francisco, and defense attorney tried to get bail for the client, on
the grounds that he had
been mentally disturbed before, but was now "okay". (Don't recall what
happened.)
Stan Sieler sieler(a)allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler
13 Sep
13 Sep
9:05 p.m.
Yup, I've seen a tape of a test on TLC or Discovery. They flew a radio
controled F4 Phantom into a test wall!
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Sipke de Wal wrote:
Back in the sixties/seventies, the US authorities were afraid that
it could be done on a nuclear powerplant. It seems the designed
the containmenthull of nuclear powerplants to resist such an event.
Sipke de Wal
12 Sep
12 Sep
11:07 a.m.
There was an hijack on a UPS cargo plane a number of years back by a
disgruntled UPS employee. He overpowered the skeleton flight crew and
attempted to crash the plane into the main UPS hub in Memphis, TN.
Fortunately, the injured flight crew struggled back control of the plane
and overted a potential disaster.
Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com)
On Wed, 2001-09-12 at 14:41, Stan Sieler wrote:
Re:
In fact, I don't know of any previous
hijacking scenario where the whole point
was to fly the plane into something to destroy it, rather then to take the
plane somewhere other then the intended destination; hijackings do take place
all the time in other parts of the world, though, so it might happen and I
just don't know about it. Anyone else have any idea?
In between (i.e, no specific destination, but a crash was desired)
...a man tried to hijack and crash a plane here in California
a couple of years ago (IIRC, the flight was from Southern California up to
Northern California). The cockpit crew overpowered
him, and landed safely. IIRC, the criminal venue was in San Francisco, and the
defense attorney tried to get bail for the client, on the grounds that he had
been mentally disturbed before, but was now "okay". (Don't recall what
happened.)
Stan Sieler sieler(a)allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler 
3:16 p.m.
In message <1000325237.18315.7.camel@DESK-2>, Jeffrey Ingber writes:
There was an hijack on a UPS cargo plane a number of
years back by a
disgruntled UPS employee. He overpowered the skeleton flight crew and
attempted to crash the plane into the main UPS hub in Memphis, TN.=20
Fortunately, the injured flight crew struggled back control of the plane
and overted a potential disaster.
I think you're referring to an incident with a FedEx employee. (Either
that or a freakishly similar one happened to FedEx.) The employee
used some of the instruments already on board the plane, particularly
a hammer, to injure the captain. He intended to crash the plane into
the primary data center facility for the company.
Brian L. Stuart
6:59 a.m.
Latest news reports that three passengers on the flight that ended up in
Pennsylvania mentioned "doing something" about the situation. Might be
why it ended up a smoking hole in a rural area rather than at its
undetermined destination. (News says Camp David, I believe that the
White House/Congress a more likely target.)
Jim
marino13(a)btopenworld.com wrote:
I have to say that I agree with the original
part of this - I have been discussing this
with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and
yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're
not involved) that I would definately take
the risk... the chances are you're gonna die
anyway. If the plane was on the ground or
part of a "hostage scenario" thats different
but I am surprised not one person would have
tried anything. But who knows... perhaps they
did.
8:16 a.m.
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 marino13(a)btopenworld.com wrote:
I have to say that I agree with the original part of
this - I have
been discussing this with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and
yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're not involved) that I
would definately take the risk... the chances are you're gonna die
anyway. If the plane was on the ground or part of a "hostage scenario"
thats different but I am surprised not one person would have tried
anything. But who knows... perhaps they did.
When you have a cross-country 8am flight, that means you probably got up
pretty early that morning (maybe 5:30am), got showered and dressed, got
your stuff together and rushed to the airport, still in a haze. You then
got on the plane, put your bags up, maybe kicked off your shoes, and
settled in for a long flight.
All of a sudden, you're awoken by a bunch of maniacs who are thrusting
knives at you and forcing you to the back of the plane. Within 15 minutes
you are slamming into the side of a highrise building.
Give these people some credit. They didn't have much time to react, let
alone assess just what the heck was going on.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10:06 a.m.
Yeah I agree - I guess its the time and short duration that are key to this and
that would make a difference.
I still stick by the fact that I for one would not let 3 guys with pocket knives
(no matter how mad they looked) scare me into letting them get on with the process
of killing, especially after they killed the stewardesses... that would probably
be enough catalyst for me to try to do something. Dont take it the wrong way, I'm
not saying "hey, look at me, I could deal with them no problem", but I
definately
would give it a go if push came to shove. But hey, we have no idea what happened
really - people may well have tried, or they may all have been told it was a plain
hijack / hostage thing, I dunno. The lack of guns probably did look extremely
suspicious I think.
But above all this, I'm definately not trying to detract at all from the
credibility, braveness or intelligence of these poor people, many such debates
will rage on for months but overall my deepest regrets and best wishes go out to
all those families and friends, and complete and utmost respect to the people that
died.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 marino13(a)btopenworld.com wrote:
I have to say that I agree with the original part
of this - I have
been discussing this with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and
yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're not involved) that I
would definately take the risk... the chances are you're gonna die
anyway. If the plane was on the ground or part of a "hostage scenario"
thats different but I am surprised not one person would have tried
anything. But who knows... perhaps they did.
When you have a cross-country 8am flight, that means you probably got up
pretty early that morning (maybe 5:30am), got showered and dressed, got
your stuff together and rushed to the airport, still in a haze. You then
got on the plane, put your bags up, maybe kicked off your shoes, and
settled in for a long flight.
All of a sudden, you're awoken by a bunch of maniacs who are thrusting
knives at you and forcing you to the back of the plane. Within 15 minutes
you are slamming into the side of a highrise building.
Give these people some credit. They didn't have much time to react, let
alone assess just what the heck was going on.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
8353
days inactive
8355
days old
10 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
blstuart＠bellsouth.net -
dtwright＠uiuc.edu -
fernande＠internet1.net -
foo＠siconic.com -
jhingber＠ix.netcom.com -
jrasite＠eoni.com -
marino13＠btinternet.com -
marino13＠btopenworld.com -
sieler＠allegro.com -
sipke＠wxs.nl