10 Jun
2004
10 Jun
'04
10:26 a.m.
Why does everything have to be so difficult?
I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum
event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga
1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input,
plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into
the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out
(and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a
DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to
DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also
need to set up).
None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display.
Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not
insane?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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9 Jun
9 Jun
11 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf(a)siconic.com>
To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: "Bay Area Computer Collector List" <baccl(a)lists.baccl.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:26 PM
Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/ this site will tell you just about anything
you need to know about amiga hardware and pinouts.
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/manuals/a520manual.lha is the link to download
the manual for you A520 (rf modulator you were referring to)
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/1080.html Shows the connection for the 1080
(there should be a switch on your unit to select which input to use). There
are quite a few differences between monitor runs on the 1080/1084 commodore
monitor along with different types of connections so you need the proper
cables.
If you don't have the correct cables, connecting both the 520st and the A500
to a color TV with RCA connections will do.
Why does everything have to be so difficult?
I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum
event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga
1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input,
plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into
the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out
(and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a
DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to
DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also
need to set up).
None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display.
Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not
insane?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage
mputers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at
http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
10 Jun
10 Jun
2:05 p.m.
Why does everything have to be so difficult?
I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum
event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga
What is the correct name for the 23 pin D connector? It's slightly
smaller than a B shell. I've seen it called the DG23 (and DF19 for the 19
pin connector on the Atari ST DMA port), but I don't know how official
they are.
1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a
Video and Chroma input,
plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into
the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out
(and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a
DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to
How many pins on the DIN plugs?
DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari
520ST (which I also
need to set up).
None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display.
_NOW_ do you know why I like to have schemaitcs to everything :-). If I
had more specs on what the signals actually were (RGB can mean just about
anything), it would be easy to make up the right cable. In fact I could
probably do it in less time than it takes to send this message.
IIRC, the 520 modulator has a composite colour output (luminance and
chromanace in the same signal, like a baseband TV signal). Commodore
monitors often had separate luma and chroma inputs (a bit like the
S-video connector, but on separate RCA phono sockets). If you connect the
5230's output to the lumanace ('video') socket on a commodore monitor,
you get a monochrome picture.
In any case, assuming the RGB signals are compatible (I assume the Amiaga
outpus analogue RGB at TV rates), you'd get a better picture using them.
It should just be a matter of matching up the signals on the 2 connectors.
I've long since given up trying to find the right cable for things like
this. To be honest it's quicker to make one. And then I hopefully keep it
with whatever device it goes with...
-tony
2:35 p.m.
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
What is the correct name for the 23 pin D connector?
It's slightly
smaller than a B shell. I've seen it called the DG23 (and DF19 for the 19
pin connector on the Atari ST DMA port), but I don't know how official
they are.
. . .
I've long since given up trying to find the right cable for things like
this. To be honest it's quicker to make one. And then I hopefully keep it
with whatever device it goes with...
But, do you have a source for the Dsomething-23 connector
for making that cable?
In 1986?, when I got my A1000, I cut one end of the shell away
on the male connectors, so that a DB25 could hang over the end.
(a somewhat less than satisfactory solution,
that also reduces the resale value)
On the external drive, the logo was misinstalled upside down
(AT THE FACTORY) - would that raise the value? (like on a postage stamp)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
1:56 p.m.
Contact Gateway Electronics on Page Avenue in St. Louis, MO. They have
DB23 Male and female (used for the disk drives too) and they stock the
plastic hoods. I think they're about $1-2 each. They have a webpage, and
ISTR they advertised in pop electronics and nuts & volts.
Gary Hildebrand
ST. Joseph, MO
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote:
[Amiga video connector]
But, do you have a source for the Dsomething-23
connector
for making that cable?
If anyone is trying to find these, I do some work for an electronics store
which has a stock of them.
Ed.
10 Jun
10 Jun
6:13 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 12:05:55AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Commodore was one of the last home computer companies to make schematics
available. The A500/A2000 tech reference has the schematics, and even
15 years ago, ordinary people could buy it (i.e., it wasn't restricted
to service centers only).
None of this
connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display.
_NOW_ do you know why I like to have schemaitcs to everything :-). In any case, assuming the RGB signals are compatible
(I assume the Amiaga
outpus analogue RGB at TV rates), you'd get a better picture using them.
It should just be a matter of matching up the signals on the 2 connectors.
Yes... the Amiga just slammed out colors on the R, G and B pins at either
PAL or NTSC frequencies (~15KHz, not 31KHz like VGA), at least for older
models and those without "flicker fixers" (buffering hardware that would
accept 15KHz input and emit 31KHz output to use with a VGA-style monitor,
integral to the A3000, and a card option for other models).
What I can't remember without looking it up is how Amigas handled sync
pulses... it's nothing bizarre, but I forget if it's HSync/VSync positive
or negative logic. Since I typically used C= monitors, it was only ever
an issue once - I got an upgrade board for a C= 1702 (C-64 chroma/luma/
composite) monitor that added RGBI for the C-128. I hacked the board a
bit and got it to work with analog RGB on my A1000 before I could afford
a "proper" RGB monitor. One part of the hack was an external sync pulse
inverter. I etched my own PCB and put a DPDT switch and a 7404 on the
sync signals so I could invert or buffer the sync pulses.
It worked great until my house was broken into in 1990 and they stole it,
my A500 (a game machine next to my workhorse A1000) and a couple of PETs.
The A1000 was lying face down next to everything - they almost got it, too.
The real loss, though, was my "WEDGE" for the A500 - a rare device that
plugged into the expansion socket and provided an 8bit ISA slot. I had
modified mine to work with serial boards as well as MFM HDCs (additional
IRQ wiring). A500s were cheap even then... I've never seen another WEDGE,
ever.
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Jun-2004 03:00 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -91.5 F (-68.7 C) Windchill -135.3 F (-93 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 12 kts Grid 063 Barometer 674.4 mb (10836. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
11 Jun
11 Jun
1:34 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 12:05:55AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Commodore was one of the last home computer companies to make schematics
available. The A500/A2000 tech reference has the schematics, and even
Indeed. I bought my A500 (the only Amiga I own, I think) at a charity
shop (what you'd call a thrift store) and it came with the user manual.
In the back was a somewhat poorly-printed schematic.
The hardware technical manual I have (another charity shop purchase...)
contains pinouts of all the custom chips, but no complete schematics.
Not a major pronlem, though.
However, I have never seen official schematics for the A520 modulator
(probably more important than the CPU board schematics for this problem),
and I can't remember if they were easily available for the monitor (or,
idndeed, if I have them, whioch is not the same thing at all!)
-tony
None of
this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display.
_NOW_ do you know why I like to have schemaitcs to everything :-).
10 Jun
10 Jun
9:58 p.m.
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
I've long since given up trying to find the right
cable for things like
this. To be honest it's quicker to make one. And then I hopefully keep it
with whatever device it goes with...
It would have been quicker but I had a very limited time to get everything
together and would've taken me as much time just to find all the parts and
tools.
One of these days I'll be organized.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
11 Jun
11 Jun
1:42 p.m.
I've long
since given up trying to find the right cable for things like
this. To be honest it's quicker to make one. And then I hopefully keep it
with whatever device it goes with...
It would have been quicker but I had a very limited time to get everything
together and would've taken me as much time just to find all the parts and
tools.
One of these days I'll be organized.
I hope not!. You'll never find anything then
-tony
10 Jun
10 Jun
2:48 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Why does everything have to be so difficult?
I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum
event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga
1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input,
plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into
the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out
(and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a
DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to
DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also
need to set up).
None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display.
Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not
insane?
Nothing personal, Sellam, but that sort of statement drives me nuts.
After reading this and the post about the A1000, it looks like you're
expecting to be able to set up a machine you know almost nothing about,
as easily as you would a machine of the type you've used all your life.
To coin a phrase, that doesn't compute. The Apples are simple and
obvious to you for the same reason Windows is simple and obvious to most
people - they're *familiar*. Even with an unknown model, you have a
good, *educated* feel for the design philosophy. To expect that kind of
intuitive understanding of an Amiga or an Atari (or an S/390) with
little or no experience is what's insane.
Doc
3:10 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
To: <General(a)mdrconsult.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks
I never had too much of a problem setting machines up that I never touched
before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver if you ever
run into problems. If you start getting into the architecture find a decent
forum that caters to those kind of machines. Having a manual is very
helpful, and if you get frustrated put the thing down and go do something
else for a while. I guess even Sellam is human like the rest of us and has
bad days.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
> Why does everything have to be so difficult?
>
> I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum
> event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga
> 1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input,
> plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into
> the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio
out
(and an RF
out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a
DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to
DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also
need to set up).
None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display.
Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not
insane?
Nothing personal, Sellam, but that sort of statement drives me nuts.
After reading this and the post about the A1000, it looks like you're
expecting to be able to set up a machine you know almost nothing about,
as easily as you would a machine of the type you've used all your life.
To coin a phrase, that doesn't compute. The Apples are simple and
obvious to you for the same reason Windows is simple and obvious to most
people - they're *familiar*. Even with an unknown model, you have a
good, *educated* feel for the design philosophy. To expect that kind of
intuitive understanding of an Amiga or an Atari (or an S/390) with
little or no experience is what's insane.
Doc
3:29 p.m.
On Thursday 10 June 2004 07:10, Teo Zenios wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
To: <General(a)mdrconsult.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks
Then you must not have tried to set up an S/390. :)
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Atari (or an S/390) with little or no experience
is what's insane.
Doc
I never had too much of a problem setting machines up that I never
touched before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver
if you ever run into problems. If you start getting into the
architecture find a decent forum that caters to those kind of
machines. Having a manual is very helpful, and if you get frustrated
put the thing down and go do something else for a while. I guess even
Sellam is human like the rest of us and has bad days.
3:47 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Finnegan" <pat(a)computer-refuge.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks
On Thursday 10 June 2004 07:10, Teo Zenios wrote:
No I stick with the simple stuff like Amigas, Atari ST's, 8 bit Commodores,
Apple IIgs, Timex, old PC's, 68k & PPC Macs, etc. Most of my problems come
when trying to find drivers for oddball upgrades, figuring out where to get
obsolete parts, or messing with Apple Unix configurations. Just like every
other hobby you spend as much time researching as you do acquiring and using
(at least for me anyway).
TZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doc Shipley" <doc(a)mdrconsult.com>
To: <General(a)mdrconsult.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks
Then you must not have tried to set up an S/390. :)
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Atari (or an S/390) with little or no experience
is what's insane.
Doc
I never had too much of a problem setting machines up that I never
touched before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver
if you ever run into problems. If you start getting into the
architecture find a decent forum that caters to those kind of
machines. Having a manual is very helpful, and if you get frustrated
put the thing down and go do something else for a while. I guess even
Sellam is human like the rest of us and has bad days.
10:08 p.m.
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote:
I never had too much of a problem setting machines up
that I never touched
before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver if you ever
run into problems. If you start getting into the architecture find a decent
forum that caters to those kind of machines. Having a manual is very
helpful, and if you get frustrated put the thing down and go do something
else for a while. I guess even Sellam is human like the rest of us and has
bad days.
Not really a bad day, just that I wanted to throw these two systems
together in short order for the Computer History Museum event so I could
get in a few hours of work before I had to leave. Instead, the Amiga
debacle absorbed way more time than I wanted it to and I lost an afternoon
futzing around with stupid issues.
Oh well...
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
10:06 p.m.
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Doc Shipley wrote:
I figured it would :)
Is it too much
to ask to have products designed by people who are not
insane?
Nothing personal, Sellam, but that sort of statement drives me nuts. After reading this and the post about the A1000, it
looks like you're
expecting to be able to set up a machine you know almost nothing about,
as easily as you would a machine of the type you've used all your life.
Kinda. But that misses the point of my rant (which may not have come
across so well) which is that these are two very closely related models
yet Commdore chose to introduce just enough difference between models that
interchanging something as simple as a video cable was an obstacle to
overcome. Contrast that with, say, the old Atari 8-bit series where each
model used the same cable type for peripherals, video, etc. Or the Apple
][ which maintained backward hardware compatibility all the way through
their last ][ model (//gs). It's just brain-dead to introduce design
variations like that, both in an engineering and business sense.
To coin a phrase, that doesn't compute. The
Apples are simple and
obvious to you for the same reason Windows is simple and obvious to most
people - they're *familiar*. Even with an unknown model, you have a
good, *educated* feel for the design philosophy. To expect that kind of
intuitive understanding of an Amiga or an Atari (or an S/390) with
little or no experience is what's insane.
C'mon, an S/390 is a tad bit more complex than an Amiga. But ultimately
I'm comparing my experiences with other equivalent era machines. For
instance, the first time I ever set up an Atari 800 system I just plugged
everything in where it seemed it needed to go and it booted up. So just
what was the "design philosophy" of the Amiga? Require the purchase of
separate video cables when you upgraded?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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7380
days inactive
7381
days old
15 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dickset＠amanda.spole.gov -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
ghldbrd＠ccp.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
shirker＠mooli.org.uk -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
vcf＠siconic.com