28 Mar
2019
28 Mar
'19
9:46 a.m.
I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in
order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way
there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out.
So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on
bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs.
I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360
instruction set. I've figured out a bunch of the strange
micro-instructions, such as S47?E, which ORs the emit field into flags 4
through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me,
like F?FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1?BS*MB which
does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50
microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-)
Thanks,
Ken
29 Mar
29 Mar
8:18 a.m.
On 03/28/2019 11:46 AM, Ken Shirriff via cctalk wrote:
I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at
the microcode level, in
order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way
there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out.
So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on
bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs.
I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360
instruction set.
If you had a 360 instruction set, why would you implement a
360 by an emulator?
It would be most common that a microcode emulator would be a
quite different scheme, kind of implementing an RTL
(Register Transfer Logic) in a "language".
I've figured out a bunch of the strange
micro-instructions, such as S47?E, which ORs the emit field into flags 4
through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me,
like F?FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1?BS*MB which
does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50
microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-)
Wow, what a project! I think the only way to understand the
microcode is to follow the signals through the ALD
schematics. A microcode programming manual would be of no
use to anyone, as the microcode bit pattern was stored in
the serpentine word-line traces of the control store
boards. 360/50 and 360/65 used CCROS (capacitor-capacitor
read only storage) where there were two word lines on one
board, one driven and one grounded through a resistor,
called drive lines and balance lines, respectively. If
there was a wide pad on the drive line opposite the pad on
the bit line, that generated a 1 in the control store word,
if the wide pad was on the balance line, you got a zero. A
very thin Mylar sheet separated the two boards, and pressure
was applied by a pressure plate and foam pad. So, a
microcode change required a board master artwork to be
changed and a new board etched. Not a practical field
operation. The only custom microcode I heard of in these
models was for the National Airspace System for the FAA
traffic control computers. The variant of the 360/50 was
called a 9020D display element, and the 360/65 variant was
called the 9020E compute element. So, somebody used the
required documents for that project.
Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage
elements were transparent latches, and they generally used a
4-phase clock. All this is pretty well documented between
the ALDs and the FEMM's for the particular model.
Jon
9:51 a.m.
On Mar 29, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were transparent
latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock.
The same is true for the CDC 6600. Not a big surprise; a transparent latch can be made of
two cross-connected gates, while a flip-flop (edge triggered) requires more stuff (four
gates?). And the 6600 uses at least four clock phases; in parts of the CPU there are
additional clocks so some of the hairy parts are more like 6 or so phases.
paul
1:47 p.m.
From an emulation standpoint, latch or flop is not
necessarily an issue. It is that it is a state holding element. The only potential issue
is if he was doing clock cycle emulation. He'd need to understand what was originally
considered a clock cycle.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 9:51 AM
To: Jon Elson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: Ken Shirriff
Subject: Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On Mar 29, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were transparent
latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock.
The same is true for the CDC 6600. Not a big surprise; a transparent latch can be made of
two cross-connected gates, while a flip-flop (edge triggered) requires more stuff (four
gates?). And the 6600 uses at least four clock phases; in parts of the CPU there are
additional clocks so some of the hairy parts are more like 6 or so phases.
paul
9:12 p.m.
Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. Anyone has them?
Marc
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at
classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>, "cctalk at
classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, March 29, 2019 at 8:45 AM
To: Ken Shirriff <ken.shirriff at gmail.com>, <General at ezwind.net>,
"cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 03/28/2019 11:46 AM, Ken Shirriff via cctalk wrote:
I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in
order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way
there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out.
So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on
bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs.
I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360
instruction set.
If you had a 360 instruction set, why would you implement a
360 by an emulator?
It would be most common that a microcode emulator would be a
quite different scheme, kind of implementing an RTL
(Register Transfer Logic) in a "language".
I've figured out a bunch of the strange
micro-instructions, such as S47?E, which ORs the emit field into flags 4
through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me,
like F?FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1?BS*MB which
does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50
microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-)
Wow, what a project! I think the only way to understand the
microcode is to follow the signals through the ALD
schematics. A microcode programming manual would be of no
use to anyone, as the microcode bit pattern was stored in
the serpentine word-line traces of the control store
boards. 360/50 and 360/65 used CCROS (capacitor-capacitor
read only storage) where there were two word lines on one
board, one driven and one grounded through a resistor,
called drive lines and balance lines, respectively. If
there was a wide pad on the drive line opposite the pad on
the bit line, that generated a 1 in the control store word,
if the wide pad was on the balance line, you got a zero. A
very thin Mylar sheet separated the two boards, and pressure
was applied by a pressure plate and foam pad. So, a
microcode change required a board master artwork to be
changed and a new board etched. Not a practical field
operation. The only custom microcode I heard of in these
models was for the National Airspace System for the FAA
traffic control computers. The variant of the 360/50 was
called a 9020D display element, and the 360/65 variant was
called the 9020E compute element. So, somebody used the
required documents for that project.
Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage
elements were transparent latches, and they generally used a
4-phase clock. All this is pretty well documented between
the ALDs and the FEMM's for the particular model.
Jon
30 Mar
30 Mar
7:51 a.m.
On 3/29/19 9:12 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote:
Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360
Model 50 ALDs. Anyone has them?
I've been looking for years.
The few on bitsavers is all I've ever been able to get.
Decades later, people are still afraid to release them.
I tried to get 2065 ALDs from someone that had them and they
wouldn't give them to me.
1 Apr
1 Apr
5:59 p.m.
New subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
Marc said
Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360
Model 50 ALDs. Anyone has them?
Marc
And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040 ALD's and
some peripheral ALD's only
saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book covering.
I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's not much
there. A while ago I did scan a
tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley
https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347
Steve.
7:25 p.m.
New subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Marc said
What does ALD stand for?
Bill
Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t
have 360 Model 50 ALDs.
Anyone has them?
Marc
And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040
ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only
saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book
covering.
I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's
not much there. A while ago I did scan a
tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley
https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347
Steve.
7:29 p.m.
New subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 2019-04-01 11:25 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Automated Logic Diagram??? they are logic diagrams that where printed on
1403 printer with a special print train.
Paul.
Marc said
What does ALD stand for?
Bill Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t
have 360 Model 50 ALDs.
Anyone has them?
Marc
And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I
have is one or two pages of the 2040
ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only
saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book
covering.
I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's
not much there. A while ago I did scan a
tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley
https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347
Steve.
7:45 p.m.
New subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
can you show me an example? Long shot but I can at least check to see if I
have any in my 360 docs. I have mostly programming manuals and general
hardware docs but a stray ALD may be present.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 10:29 PM Paul Berger via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2019-04-01 11:25 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
Automated Logic Diagram they are logic diagrams that where printed on
1403 printer with a special print train.
Paul.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Marc said
>> Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360 Model 50 ALDs.
> Anyone has them?
>> Marc
> And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the
2040
ALD's
and some peripheral ALD's only
saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book
covering.
I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's
not much there. A while ago I did scan a
tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley
https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347
Steve.
What does ALD stand for?
Bill
2 Apr
2 Apr
7:49 a.m.
New subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 4/1/19 7:45 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
can you show me an example? Long shot but I can at
least check to see if I
have any in my 360 docs. I have mostly programming manuals and general
hardware docs but a stray ALD may be present.
ALDs are 11x17, and are marked with the product number on the spine of the n-ring binder
8:20 a.m.
New subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 04/02/2019 09:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
On 4/1/19 7:45 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
Not only that, they are marked
with the machine serial
number, and are specific to that machine.
So, any ECOs, or hardware options present in that machine
will be shown on the schematics.
There will be several other manuals in the set that are not
specifically "ALD"s, but are part of the set, such as
microcode listings and FLT (Fault Location Test) manuals
that reflect ECOs and options.
Jon
can you show me an example? Long shot but I can
at least check to see if I
have any in my 360 docs. I have mostly programming manuals and general
hardware docs but a stray ALD may be present.
ALDs are 11x17, and are marked with
the product number on the spine of the n-ring binder
8:02 a.m.
New subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
On 04/01/2019 09:45 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
can you show me an example?
I think this may actually be a section of the "ALD"s for a
model /50:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050/2050_Vol18_Sep72.pdf
And, this one has pretty detailed info on the microcode
flow, listing of operations, etc.
(This may be what the OP was already working with.)
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050/Z22-2833-R_2050_Processing_Uni…
This whole area of bitsavers is well hidden, but has a
wealth of hardware information:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/
Jon
3:47 a.m.
New subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information?
As Paul said. ALDs are schematics down to the gate level basically. Necessary to make a
gate exact emulation, or debug and maintain a real machine. Used to be sent with each and
every machine, but sadly not often preserved apparently. Fortunately our IBM 1401?s came
with their ALDs. We refer to them every time so something goes wrong.
Marc
On Apr 1, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2019-04-01 11:25 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk
wrote:
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Automated Logic Diagram they are logic diagrams that where printed on 1403 printer
with a special print train.
Paul.
Marc said
What does ALD stand for?
Bill Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t
have 360 Model 50 ALDs.
Anyone has them?
Marc
And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I
have is one or two pages of the 2040
ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only
saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book
covering.
I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's
not much there. A while ago I did scan a
tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley
https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347
Steve.
7:19 a.m.
New subject: PL/M for Wang 600
Yesterday a visitor in our museum told me, that they used a PL/M
compiler on their Wang 600 at the highschool in the mid-70ies.
First I couldn't believe this, but he had some handwritten
(typwriter) documention about this system.
I scanned the papers and put them on our ftp-server:
ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/wang/model600_plm
Naturally the docu is in german.
Has anybody heard about this, or better has more documentation?
Klemens
--
http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de
31 Mar
31 Mar
3:24 p.m.
On 28/03/2019 17:46, Ken Shirriff via cctech wrote:
I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at
the microcode level, in
order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way
there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out.
So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on
bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs.
I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360
instruction set. I've figured out a bunch of the strange
micro-instructions, such as S47?E, which ORs the emit field into flags 4
through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me,
like F?FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1?BS*MB which
does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50
microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-)
Thanks,
Ken
Welcome to the club!
Do you only have the manuals from Bitsavers? So CLDs but no ALDs.
Yes, something that does a FP shift-left-4 will be related to the IBM FP
format normalisation and it should be possible to work out exactly what
from the context. It may do other odd things and not
just what the
operation mnemonic shows, e.g shift left 4 + increment exponent + set
flag on overflow, or perhaps the opposite to de-normalise for
addition/subtraction (see CPL 115.)
You could also look through the diagnostic sections to see if the
operation is used in there - this may well give exercise special cases
of the operation and confirm exactly how it is meant to work. I had a
problem with the 2030 ALDs and CLDs not being the same version (I think
the microcode/CLD was newer) and this meant it would not work with the
circuitry I had. I can't remember the differences, I think an extra
diagnostic latch or two, but once the diagnostics passed I was confident
they were correct.
Is there anything new at http://www.ibm360.info/ for you?
--
Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360
1860
days inactive
1865
days old
15 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
curiousmarc3＠gmail.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
ken.shirriff＠gmail.com -
krause＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
ljw-cctech＠ljw.me.uk -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
phb.hfx＠gmail.com -
steven＠malikoff.com