I was making the comparison to the WinTel world, forgetting that without specifying that on this list, I opened the comment to compare them to a slew of machines that would blow Apple out of the water. Sorry it was my Mac Evangelist side popping out too quickly. Ok... I was thinking security as in how often we loose or destroy your files. Not how often we let someone steal your files. No Apple doesn't excel at keeping the files intact, but they are no worse than many others. In terms of allowing someone to steal or alter your files, I agree, short of encrypting the files, there is nothing acceptable on the Mac pre-OS X (at least OS 9 finally added built in encryption if you wanted to use it). I have seen few even half way decent security systems to keep people off your Mac. And even the half way decent ones tend to be easy to bypass if you have sufficient access to the machine (ie: steal it and take your time) Although, in the Mac's defense, in terms of "hacker" access from over the internet, I will trust my Mac running any pre-OS X version of the OS before I will trust ANY other OS (even well configured Unix). In that line, then I stand by my overly stated statement saying that the Mac has far better security. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>