9 May
2014
9 May
'14
6:53 a.m.
hello,
I have a question about paper tape punch / reader devices.
I see sometime around devices developed for CNC machines, e.g. the Facit
N4000.
I know these devices are configurable, and mostly have serial interface, so
maybe they could be attached to an "old iron", or to a pc for dumping
purposes.
I'm not sure however about the physical format of the paper tape, the
position of the holes, etc
Are these machines compatible?
Thanks
Andrea
9 May
9 May
9:01 a.m.
On 09/05/2014 06:53, shadoooo wrote:
hello,
I have a question about paper tape punch / reader devices.
I see sometime around devices developed for CNC machines, e.g. the Facit
N4000.
I know these devices are configurable, and mostly have serial interface, so
maybe they could be attached to an "old iron", or to a pc for dumping
purposes.
I'm not sure however about the physical format of the paper tape, the
position of the holes, etc
Are these machines compatible?
Thanks
Andrea
I have a couple of GNT reader/punches and they are standard 1" , 8-hole
tape (actually they will do 5-hole as well).
They have photo electric readers. I have used them to read tapes for
other folks.
I remember punching CNC tape on Newcastle Polytechnics IBM1130 some 40
years ago and it was a standard IBM punch....
... so I think they are all standard layout....
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
10:56 a.m.
afaik, there was only one format for eight-bit 1" punchtape. 6bit was in
a couple of formats, mainly with the transport hole being offset a
litthe early or late in regard to the data holes. but the data on a 8bit
tape can be all kind of things. remember, ascii came relatively late in
the game, so i have a few machines with propritary coding schemes.
translation can be achieved with https://github.com/Hack42/Punchconverter
macsimski
On 09-05-14 07:53, shadoooo wrote:
hello,
I have a question about paper tape punch / reader devices.
I see sometime around devices developed for CNC machines, e.g. the Facit
N4000.
I know these devices are configurable, and mostly have serial interface, so
maybe they could be attached to an "old iron", or to a pc for dumping
purposes.
I'm not sure however about the physical format of the paper tape, the
position of the holes, etc
Are these machines compatible?
Thanks
Andrea
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
4:58 p.m.
There are two questions here.
One is physical format: placement and size of holes and width of tape. I know of 2, 5,
6, and 8 bit tape. Hole pitch is 0.1 inch, and the feed hole is small while the data
holes are bigger. (I don?t know the sizes but all the ones I?ve seen are consistent.)
Width is 0.2 inch + 0.1 * number of data bits. So 8 bit tape is 1 inch wide.
Feed holes are between the 3rd and 4th row on 8 bit, between the 2nd and 3rd on 5 bit,
between the two rows on 2 bit, and I?m not sure where on 6 bit. (In the middle,
probably.)
2 bit is Wheatstone, for encoding Morse code. 5 bit is ?Baudot?, i.e., Murray code, the
older telegraph system. 6 bit is for early automated typesetters (automated Linotypes or
early phototypesetters). 8 bit we all know.
Oh yes, there is much wider tape (19 channels???) for Monotype machines. I know nothing
about those other than the brief reference I saw in the excellent book ?Travels in
Computerland?.
The other question is encoding. 2 channel tape is Morse (specifically International
Morse, it can?t encode American Morse). 5 channel is Baudot/Murray, which actually comes
in a half dozen variations that generally affect just the ?figures shift?. 6 channel also
comes in a pile of variations, for example one used for stock listings which has lots of
different fractions. And 8 channel can encode 7 or 8 bit codes (and probably even 6 bit
codes on old computers that used that), anywhere from ASCII to the many Flexowriter codes
to BCD and EBCDIC.
As for the original question: a one inch tape machine from CNC equipment should be just
like any other 8 bit tape as far as the physical aspects are concerned. So you should
just need to worry about the electrical interfacing.
paul
On May 9, 2014, at 5:56 AM, Simon Claessen <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
afaik, there was only one format for eight-bit 1"
punchtape. 6bit was in a couple of formats, mainly with the transport hole being offset a
litthe early or late in regard to the data holes. but the data on a 8bit tape can be all
kind of things. remember, ascii came relatively late in the game, so i have a few machines
with propritary coding schemes. translation can be achieved with
https://github.com/Hack42/Punchconverter
macsimski
On 09-05-14 07:53, shadoooo wrote:
hello,
I have a question about paper tape punch / reader devices.
I see sometime around devices developed for CNC machines, e.g. the Facit
N4000.
I know these devices are configurable, and mostly have serial interface, so
maybe they could be attached to an "old iron", or to a pc for dumping
purposes.
I'm not sure however about the physical format of the paper tape, the
position of the holes, etc
Are these machines compatible?
Thanks
Andrea
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl 
9:35 p.m.
There are two questions here.
One is physical format: placement and size of holes and width of
tape. I know of 2, 5, 6, and 8 bit tape. Hole pitch is 0.1 inch, and
the feed hole is small while the data holes are bigger. (I don?t know
the sizes but all the ones I?ve seen are cosistent.)
Herr's a spec I extracted from the service manaul for my Facit 4070 many
years ago....
------------
My Facit 4070 punch service manual gives some specifications of the paper
tape. They're in milimetres (which is crazy, because the original
dimensions were almost certainly specified in inches), but here goes.
I'll convert some of them to inches as well...
Tape widths :
5 track : 17.46+/-0.08mm (11/16")
6 track, 7 track, 6 track typesetter tape : 22.23+/-0.08mm (7/8")
8 track : 25.40+/-0.08mm (1")
Now, for all but typesetter tape, each row across the tape consists of 3
data holes, a smaller sproket hole, and then 2/3/4/5 data holes,
depending on the number of tracks. The edge of the tape nearest to the
3-holes is the reference edge.
The sprocket hole centre-line is 9.96+/-0.1mm (about 25/64") from the
reference edge. The holes are spaced at 2.54+/-0.05mm(0.1") multiples
from the sprocket holes. And the rows on the tape are
also spaced at
2.54mm (0.1") multiples.
In other words, the centres of the holes on the tape lie on a 0.1" * 0.1"
grid.
Data holes are 1.83 +/-0.05mm in diameter (72 thou). Sprocket holes are
1.17 (+0.05,-0.025)mm in diameter (46 thou).
Typesetter tape is the odd one. It's 6 track, with a line of sprocket
holes almost down the middle of the tape - 11.02+/-0.1mm from the
reference edge (just unde 7.16"). I wonder if this is a typo, and that
the sprocket track should be _on_ the centre line (11.12mm from the
reference edge).
Hole spacings and diameters are as above, apart from the fact that
instead of the center line of the sprocket holes and data holes lining
up, the leading edge does. In other words, the centres of the sprocket
holes are displaced 0.33+/-0.02mm towards the front end of the tape.
-----------------------------------
2 bit is Wheatstone, for encoding Morse code. 5 bit
is ?Baudot?,
i.e., Murray code, the older telegraph system. 6 bit is for early
Ste normal code for 5 level tape is ITA2. This is often mis-named Baudot
r Murray code, but is actually different to both of them.
Baudot code was sued on a 5 lever chording keyboard for the Baudot
Quadruplex system. The encoding is totally differnet ot the others,
Murray code was used on early (1920s) teleprinters, the main diffference
as agaisnt ITA 2 is that there is no separate space chracter, rather ht
there is a 'letters space' and a 'figures space' which advanec on print
position and set the apporpriate shift. There are no seprate shift
chracters either. So you actually coulding prrint '1A48FC' on such a
machine it would be '1 A 48 FC'.
automated typesetters (automated Linotypes or early
phototypesetters).
8 bit we all know.
Do we? 8 level tape was used for all sorts of thigns (ASCII (maybe with a
parity bit), EBCDIC, binary data, etc
FWIW, Iv'e yet to see a punch or reader that does any translation on the
data. You send it 8 bits, it punchs that pattern of holes ('1'= hole),
ditto for reading. It's up to your host machine to get the right data to
the punch.
Oh yes, there is much wider tape (19 channels???) for Monotype
machines. I know nothing about those other than the brief reference I
saw in the excellent book ?Travels in Computerland.
SOmehwere I have the handbook for the Monotype Caster. I don't think it
incldues the tape encoding, though (tIt does include dismantling and
repair instructions)
The other question is encoding. 2 channel tape is Morse (specifically
International Morse, it can?t encode American Morse). 5 channel is
Baudot/Murray, which actually comes in a half dozen variations that
generally affect just the ?figures shift?. channel also comes in a pile
I seem to rememebr that ITA2 has 3 of 4 of the 'figures' shift'
characters unasigned for local usage.
of variations, for example one used for stock listings
which has lots of
different fractions. And 8 channel can encode 7 or 8 bit codes (and
probably even 6 bit codes on old computers that used that), anywhere
from ASCII to t he many Flexowriter codes to BCD and EBCDIC.
As for the original question: a one inch tape machine from CNC
equipment should be just like any other 8 bit tape as far as the
physical aspects are concerned. So you should just need to worry about
the electrical interfacing.
Indeed.
-tony
11:06 p.m.
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 9:35 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I believe my Facit 4047 can do this. I've got the manuals and will scan
them in someday when I get a chance. It's a "smart" unit, with both a
reader and punch, two serial ports, and all driven by a 6800. Or maybe it
was a 6809; it's been too long since I've opened it.
Kyle
automated typesetters (automated Linotypes or
early phototypesetters).
8 bit we all know.
Do we? 8 level tape was used for all sorts of thigns (ASCII (maybe with a
parity bit), EBCDIC, binary data, etc
FWIW, Iv'e yet to see a punch or reader that does any translation on the
data. You send it 8 bits, it punchs that pattern of holes ('1'= hole),
ditto for reading. It's up to your host machine to get the right data to
the punch. 
5:59 p.m.
On 5/8/14 10:53 PM, shadoooo wrote:
I'm not sure however about the physical format of
the paper tape, the
position of the holes, etc
Are these machines compatible?
Yes, they are 1" wide 8 bits with a sprocket hole.
You need to make sure that the serial interface is set to 8 bits of data.
The tape readers on these units are star wheel, and don't work well on tapes
that haven't been evenly punched. I've noticed DEC paper tapes sometimes have
this problem
We use a DSI NC2400 for punching tapes for the PDP-1.
It would be nice to find a schematic and/or service manual for these. Another
project is making a schematic, since I have a couple with blown punch drivers,
and the one we use for punching tapes has a dead reader.
9:41 p.m.
The tape readers on these units are star wheel, and
don't work well on tapes
that haven't been evenly punched. I've noticed DEC paper tapes sometimes have
this problem
That surprises me, as the DEC rader in the PC04/PC05 is also a
sprokect-feed unit. The sproket is quite larrge, but it would still give
problems with non-even spacing of the characters.
Actually, I think my fully optical Trends would too, in that they have 2
feed sensors 2.5 chracters apart, a character is sensed wien the oen
in-line with the data holes is brighter than the other by a certain
amount and the data threshold is the (weighted) average of the 2 feed
hole detectors. This compensates for non-opaque tape, etc. But it could
cause problems with uneven chracter spacing.
We use a DSI NC2400 for punching tapes for the PDP-1.
It would be nice to find a schematic and/or service manual for these. Another
project is making a schematic, since I have a couple with blown punch drivers,
and the one we use for punching tapes has a dead reader.
I would love to find the manuals for the Facit 4000. I have oen that
seems ot have some faults, but it may be htat I've jsut not set it up
properly.
-tony
11:07 p.m.
On 05/09/2014 01:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
It seems to me that, while the sprocket holes are useful, they're not
particularly necessary for reading. One can sample each frame several
times with a modern MCU as it goes by and figure out pretty precisely
where the center of the frame lies--and probably the angle of the tape skew.
Not that I've ever had a need to try it...
--Chuck
The tape
readers on these units are star wheel, and don't work well on tapes
that haven't been evenly punched. I've noticed DEC paper tapes sometimes have
this problem
That surprises me, as the DEC rader in the PC04/PC05 is also a
sprokect-feed unit. The sproket is quite larrge, but it would still give
problems with non-even spacing of the characters.
10 May
10 May
1:29 a.m.
On May 9, 2014, at 6:07 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 05/09/2014 01:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
It seems to me that, while the sprocket holes are useful, they're not particularly
necessary for reading. One can sample each frame several times with a modern MCU as it
goes by and figure out pretty precisely where the center of the frame lies--and probably
the angle of the tape skew.
Not that I've ever had a need to try it...
You need the sprocket holes for byte framing. Yes, you could deal with irregular spacing
and skew easily enough, but you do need to be able to count the bytes, even if there are
no holes (bytes of zero).
paul
The tape
readers on these units are star wheel, and don't work well on tapes
that haven't been evenly punched. I've noticed DEC paper tapes sometimes have
this problem
That surprises me, as the DEC rader in the PC04/PC05 is also a
sprokect-feed unit. The sproket is quite larrge, but it would still give
problems with non-even spacing of the characters.
2:07 a.m.
On 05/09/2014 05:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
You need the sprocket holes for byte framing. Yes,
you could deal
with irregular spacing and skew easily enough, but you do need to be
able to count the bytes, even if there are no holes (bytes of zero).
Ah, yes. The same problem with even parity on 7 track mag tape. 00
looks the same as blank tape.
Okay, well, forget that.
--Chuck
9 May
9 May
9:17 p.m.
hello,
I have a question about paper tape punch / reader devices.
I see sometime around devices developed for CNC machines, e.g. the Facit
N4000.
I know these devices are configurable, and mostly have serial interface, so
maybe they could be attached to an "old iron", or to a pc for dumping
purposes.
I'm not sure however about the physical format of the paper tape, the
position of the holes, etc
Are these machines compatible?
In genral, yes. The odd paper tape is the 6-level 'typesetter' tape which
has differences like the leading edge of the data holes and the (smaller)
sproket holes are aligned ; for all other tapes the cantre lines are
aligned.
Now Facit did make typesetter punches, but they are not common. All the
Facits I've seen (4070s and 4000s) have the normal punch die assembly.
This will punch the 8 level tape used on classic computers, Model 33
ASR's, etc. They will also do the narrower 5 level tape if you want to
work with am ITA2 [1] teleprinter.
Ditto the readers.
Most of these machines (in fact every one I've got) have adjustable or
self-setting guides for the various tape widths, so that's not a problem
either.
-tony
3664
days inactive
3665
days old
11 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
kylevowen＠gmail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
shadoooo＠gmail.com -
simski＠dds.nl