languages - test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

9 Mar 2000

please see embedded comments below.

Dick

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Strickland &lt;jim(a)calico.litterbox.com&gt;
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org &lt;classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org&gt;
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: languages

...
 *snip*

> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the
tools
...
 > that should have been taught with English, e.g.
organization and structure
...
 > in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and
organization in writing,
> which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no
point
...
 > of reference.  Try asking a recent high school
graduate what a gerund or an
...
 > infinitive is.  Then ask what the different
between a present participle and
...
 > a gerund is.  Don't even bother to discuss
sentence diagrams, since the
> teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools.  Foreign languages
> all have their own sentence structure and grammar.  If a teacher can't
make
...
 > reference to a model their pupils must know,
there's nowhere for them to go
...
   in order to
teach those same characteristics in another language.

 It's a sad situation.

 Dick 
I agree with the fundamental premise of this post, but I have to disagree with
...
 the example of grammar.  See, classical grammer, what
most of us DID learn in
...
 high school, was actually lifted from latin grammar. 
It never fit English very
...
 well.  In the last 20 years or so there have arisen new
systems of grammar
which understand a word order language like English far better than Latin
grammar, which was designed for a word-ending language where word order is
irrelevant, ever could.  Of course, THESE grammars are not well taught either,
...
 but the fact that a modern high school student
doesn't know gerunds and present
...
 participles may well be because that whole system of
grammar is no longer
taught.  It never was that useful to begin with.
 First of all, you must consider that, unlike French and Spanish, English is
not a Latin-derived language, but rather a Germaic language.  It's true that
English is a language that has developed over the centuries into one which
does allow word order to effect sentence meaning, unlike most other modern
languages.  However, having seen MANY sentences written by college graduates
to be lacking in subject or verb, or grossly misusing predicate nominatives
or adjectives, I have to say that the BASIC STRUCTURE that was taught by
simple tools like sentence diagrams (remember them?) tended to teach people
who were taught that structure to write complete sentences.  Along the way,
it was taught that one shouldn't split infinitives, end sentences with
prepositions, and so on.   The lack of that basic structure is "out there"
in the newspapers, magazines and, even worse, in the common speech
observable in radio and television programs every day.

I have to disagree with the notion that it's not important to know whether a
word is a gerund or a participle.  Knowing that they exist means knowing
that there's a difference, hence, serves as an aid in using them correctly.
...

Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
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