Tony Duell wrote: I can't comment on whether it's possible to make reliable, long-lasting, devices with lead-free solder (although there seem to be exemptions for what I'd call 'critical' applications (military, aerospace, medical, etc) in the UK regulations which allow the use of leaded solder for such devices, so draw you own conclusions). ---------------- I've put a call into a specialist friend who does mil-spec here. Last time I talked to him he said they couldn't use lead based. In fact most of his "hardened" designs had to be laser welded. But I want to verify what US mil-spec calls for currently. ------------------- But I can assure you I've had enough dry joints in modern stuff assembled with lead free solder to last me a lifetime. I've even had brand-new stuff that's had to be resoldered before it will work. And I've met plenty of other repairers (entusiasts and professionals) who have had the same problems. Not 'a' bad expeience, but many of them. I can't see what a hobbyist would have to bother -- at least in the UK, these directives only apply to equipment that's offered for sale. You cna do what yuou like in stuff you build for yourself. ---------------- Like you, many hobbists want to repair or modify equipment they buy. And even more simple users like myself, where I buy PCBs and salvage the parts I want. For example, I found some boards with 10 nanosecond 32Kx8 RAMS that were perfect for a logic analyzer I want to build. A bitch to get off, even though surface mount. Wish they were some of those bad joints you see - these almost had to be cut off. ------------------- Perhaps your consumer electronic devices are built a lot better than ours. THis all started with a mention of a $89 VCR. Over here that's a '50 quid VCR' and yes, we get them at that sort of price. Now, when I last bought a VCR, some 15 years ago, it cost nearly \pounds 1000 (or 20 times as much). Are you seriously telling me that, even though there's been inflation in that time, a modern 50 quid machine is going to be as well made anf as long lasting. Becasue I simply don't see that. I think the big change is that 20 years ago there was good stuff and bad stuff out there. I mentioned I'd paid \pounds 1000 or so for a VCR. There were much cheaper machines around at the time, sure, and they probably have not lasted 15 years. But if you wanted to spend the money you could get one that lasted, that was maintainable (the manufacturers not only produced an excellent servive manual, but they sent it to me free of charge when I asked about it), etc. Now I see \pounds 50 VCRs and \pounds 20 DVD players and nothing else. I'd love to be able to spend more money and get a better machine, but I can't. Not over here they don't. People upgrade because a new model is available with more features (they they probably will never use). Provided the machine lasts for the warranty period the manufacturer is happy. If it fails after that time he gets to sell another one. ------------------------------------ This is one area I will agree with you. My experience at Philips exposed me to the enormous difference in consumer protection laws in the US versus the rest of the world. Philips management had a terrible time dealing with these differences. For example, if a box is even opened here, the unit automatically becomes "used" and has to be marked as such. (Usually referred to as white labelling.) Customers can return a product without giving any reason. It doesn't have to be a failure. Cosmetic damage consititutes a failure. This includes the packaging. Another huge difference is that refurbished units have to be sold as used, even if they have a new product warranty. (Philip's answer was to sell the reburished units through the employee stores.) This is also true if the unit was refurbished before it ever left the factory. Of course that rule is ignored by everybody. But big accounts like Apple and Dell still insist that no unit can be reworked. They demand only prime yield product. All of these laws were different from the typical consumer protection laws in Europe. There, many manufacturers used a 5% rule. 5% of what they ship is defective. They give the distributors extra units as a margin against returns. Sadly, many of the returns are sold as new. There are no laws in the Common Market to prevent this. Management used to this Euro environment had a terrible time adjusting to the US conditions. Some couldn't even understand the concept of a rebate: if you advertised a rebate, you have to pay it! That lesson cost several European companies tens of millions of dollars and government law suits to learn. One result of these differences is that European companies normally don't normally thrive in the US. The cultural gap in business is too great. When I went to work for Philips, no one I knew here was aware Philips made anything besides light bulbs. It is not a well known brand name here, like Sony and Panasonic. So I can accept that you see a much lower level of quality than is normal here in the US. We still see some crap, but we can do something about it. --------------------------- Sorry, I have looked at modern stuff and found that in many cases the performance and quality of construction is markedly inferior to that which I already own. Perhaps you could explain to me in what ways I am going to find it 'superior'. -tony --------------------- Tony, your heart and mind are in the past. No matter how many facts, figures, statistics I present, I will never convince you that today's world is as good as your golden age when everything was perfect. Why bother? It's just unpleasant for both of us. I've spent 46 years in the electronics industry, always on the cutting edge, and always striving for improvement. I see enormous changes, most for the good. You don't. I value my time too much to waste it on repairing minor appliances. You get great pleasure from that activity. We are never going to agree on what constitutes a good product - you want a maintenance manual and lots of spares; I want no failures and no hassles during a useful life cycle. I think we agree on a love of old computers and the need to keep a few alive. And we may share pleasure in designing and building little systems. But I wonder if you enjoy playing with PICs and FPGAs like I do, since little documention on the innards is available. And I know we disagree strongly on use of the internet, saving old manuals and sending photos, scans, software etc. That requires technology you are not willing to embrace. I have to admit I'm hoping to meet you next year. I'll be retiring then and we are going to spend half our time in Colechester and the other half in California. We are going to explore a lot of England that I still haven't seen. And attend a few science fiction conventions, hit the famous book stores in Wales, check out pub food, sample the local beers and in general do the things we always wanted to do but were too busy. Billy