On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Paul Koning wrote: There are many "photo-finish" and "photo-start" events in this industry. Many, if not most, "first"s in computers had overlapping development times. I remember a few times where the setup staffs at Comdex were frantically trying to get their booths together in order to be the first one to boot up their machine, in order to claim to have introduced it before somebody else. In the end, it is only the big money people whose claims get listened to - Adam Osborne with $100K? of chrome and black plexiglass, or a 10x10 booth across the aisle made out of flush doors and file cabinets? Is "FIRST" based on design? prototypes? prototypes being misrepresented as production machines? first public demo? first trade show? first sale? preorder? first shipped? first delivered? Such differentiations obviously are petty, but have always played a part in almost every "FIRST" claim.

Oh I don't know...I think these had some interest in 1975 http://vintagecomputer.net/altair-poptronics.cfm Also take a look at the run of Byte mags published in 1975, plus People's Computer Company Newsletters from 1975. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Richard Loken <richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca> wrote: -- Bill vintagecomputer.net

On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: Ah that was my question. I did not pay attention to computers at all until 1980 and it another five or more years before I had any interest something that could be lifted by one man. My interest is still largely confined to big iron. I am sort of curious about whether a computer store in 1975 sold only parts and kits or whether assemble self supporting packages were starting to appear. Was this still the era of the front panel and the S100 bus or had they move onto stuff like the Kaypro and the Apple ][? Circa 1988 I bought a TRS80 Model II with an external drive cabinet and an immense Tandy printer for $100.00. As far as I recall, the prof who sold it to me had paid about $10,000.00 for it around 1978. It was still pretty hard to lift without help. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston

On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Richard Loken wrote: Ah, we all have different times that we heard about microcomputers V when we became interested in them, based on personal criteria that they had to meet to be what we might want to have. You mention, "could be lifted by one man", which happens to coincide with one of my favorite DEFINITIONs of "microcomputer". All of the definitions have some level of subjectivity - different physical strengths, or abilities to lose different size things, etc. You also mention front panel V Kaypro and Apple (with integrated keyboard, and screen might or might not be integral). For some people, a computer connected to a terminal didn't get their interest, until that was built-in. I went around to the computer stores (we had 3 of them here in 1978), but what they had was still out of my reach. My personal decision points were: programmable in a high-level language and <$500. For me, those were first met by TRS80 ($400 with my own CCTV monitor; $600 with monitor and cassette) Murray's personal decision points were apparently first met by Coleco Adam. Writers in the computer history genre usually acknowledge some "pre-history" (usually starting with Altair's appearance on a magazine cover (how many machines were available for sale at THAT time?)). Then, they mention a few other prehistoric machines, that they had personally seen, but were unable/uninterested in buying, and get to "The First PRACTICAL Computer", which was, of course, the first one that they felt finally met their needs. That used to be Apple/TRS80/PET. But, as we age, newer writers think of computers as starting with PC, Mac, or AT, with all earlier ones being consigned to that "unusable" prehistory category ("You can't DO anything without a hard drive", "Unusable without WYSIWYG", etc.) Now, obviously, the first "REAL" computer needed to have internet connectivity. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: It's not a real computer unless it has a real front panel with switches and blinkenlights. Real computers haven't been commercially sold in ages. A keypad and display scanned by software, e.g., Heath H8, doesn't qualify; an important purpose of the front panel is to examine and modify memory for diagnostic purposes when the computer isn't working properly. The KL10 CPU used in later PDP-10 systems (DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20) doesn't qualify because the only real front panel is on the PDP-11 front end; there's no front panel to examine and modify main system memory.

On 07/24/2015 04:20 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: Ever watch any old reruns of "Wonder Woman". Lots of blinkin' lights; no computer. Or you could watch old "The Outer Limits" episodes where clicking of relays and beeps and boops seems to accompany real computers. Or you could just get a floor-standing vacuum-column tape drive and spin the reels back and forth... --Chuck

On 7/24/2015 6:41 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: Time Tunnel had a lot of scenes with "computery" looking gizmos, probably including these drives. But more panels with meters, displays and blinking lights.

Remember when USB was referred to as the Useless Serial Bus after it was introduced? I think it was a solid 1-2 years after it was introduced that I began to notice peripherals designed for it. Sent from my iPhone

On 07/26/2015 06:12 AM, tony duell wrote: The first USB devices were utterly terrible--I've got a few that work only with certain controllers--modern controllers are absolutely blind to the things. It seems to me (and I'll defer to more experienced hands) that USB is not wonderful for single- or low-count byte transfers; that the negotiation overhead makes short transfers rather problematic, particularly where the topology involves multiple hubs. In other words, USB is well-suited to block transfers. Is this a fair assessment? And the proliferation of unofficial VID and PIDs seems to be an issue, particularly with Chinese-origin devices. "Squatting" seems to be a practice also: VID 0001 = Fry's Electronics; 0004 = Nebraska Furniture Mart--really? I've found Chinese USB devices squatting on the Linksys VID, with a non-Linksys PID. Really, it's a mess. --Chuck

If it is a gentleman's agreement (i.e. no licensing/certification fees) why wouldn't people use their own VID/PID? Is it because they do not want to develop drivers?

why Its not a gentlemens agreement. The USB.ORG sue folks who try and sell block of IDs. http://www.voti.nl/docs/usb-pid.html so folks just pinch them.. Dave

On 07/26/2015 03:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: Heck, they don't sue people who roll their own PIDs and use someone else's VID. Maybe they think that that's the prerogative of the VID owner. But what does one do if the VID owner no longer is in business? The ultimate solution would probably be to run a 64 or 128-bit counter that *anyone* can use to get universal device ID. Essentially it's a scheme to inflate the value of VID/PID pairs. No profit in appropriating someone else's. --Chuck

Ahhh! So it is not a gentleman's agreement but a licensing scheme.

On Fri, 24 Jul 2015, Richard Loken wrote: Stan Veit, claiming to have run the SECOND computer store (in New York city), backs up the statement that Heiser started the first one. In 1976, Veit sold IIMSAIs, and Sphere. This was largely due to him being unwilling to become a franchise of "The Computer Store" out of Boston, who had an exclusive on Altairs for the the northeast. He doesn't say when "The Computer Store" opened their first actual retail store, but he was well established when they opened one in New York.

I have some slides of the IBM Customer Center from 1980, recently scanned and I need to put them online. Yes, you could buy things like system 36/38, Displaywriters, typewriters, printers, etc. Just before the IBM PC. By 1980 the portable 5100 was not present, but I am sure you could buy a 5100 from a customer center in 1975. Good point. I think the original poster was referring to one of the first independent microcomputer stores. There is a huge bias assumption towards "first [micro]computer" whatever, conveniently ignoring the huge volume of mini and mainframes sold at the same time. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote: -- Bill vintagecomputer.net