22 Oct
2010
22 Oct
'10
10:10 a.m.
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access.
A random access storage is defined by the fact that
addressing
any arbitrary cell needs the same time.
.
That may be today's definition but if you check the literature of the 50's
and 60's I am sure u will find drums (along with Williams Tubes, etc)
categorized as random access devices. Even the first disk drive was the IBM
RAMAC 350 - as in Random Access Memory! I think IBM invented the term
Direct Access Storage in the 1960s to distinguish devices whose assess time
was short but variable; that is, in between core (random) and tape
(sequential).
So the historical definition may have been . needs essentially the same
time.
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:14 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers (William
Donzelli)
2. RE: the new manx is live (Rob Jarratt)
3. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
(Ian King)
4. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (MikeS)
5. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Dan
Williams)
6. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Al Kossow)
7. Re: the new manx is live (Dan Roganti)
8. Re: the new manx is live (Richard)
9. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Chuck
Guzis)
10. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
(Rich Alderson)
11. Re: HTL (Charles Dickman)
12. Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
(Al Kossow)
13. Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey)
14. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Chuck Guzis)
15. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Pontus
Pihlgren)
16. Re: the new manx is live (Pontus Pihlgren)
17. Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC
(Operation
Alto Restoration) (Nick Allen)
18. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
(Charlie Carothers)
19. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (r.stricklin)
20. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
(Jochen Kunz)
21. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
(Christian Corti)
22. RE: Oldest original working proper computer
(stored program
etc) (Roger Holmes)
23. Re: lilith computer by wikipedia (Simon Fryer)
24. Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on
a PC
(Operation Alto Restoration) (Al Kossow)
25. RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey)
26. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Dave McGuire)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:25:52 -0400
From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTinUBCts0XvV0RaGH7RcJQab-Vqm5YjBrks8aQP3
at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Will, you've got a 1604; do you know anything
about this?
Not me.
I probably have enough of the modules that I could
build one, however.
--
Will
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:28:17 +0100
From: "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at
ntlworld.com>
Subject: RE: the new manx is live
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>,
"'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Only'"
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<015601cb7166$e49b58a0$add209e0$(a)ntlworld.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
-----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn
Ingolfsen
> Sent: 21 October 2010 08:10
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
> Subject: Re: the new manx is live
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard
<legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
> > Manx is an online catalog of computer
documentation.
> >
> > The new manx is up for beta testing here:
<http://manx.classiccmp.org>
> >
>
> I seem to be having problems reaching the site.
> Details:
> root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org
traceroute to
> (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
> 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms
0.158 ms
> 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms
86.825 ms
> 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1)
15.481 ms 14.011 ms
14.051
ms
> 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30)
17.763 ms * 59.706 ms
> 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70)
18.365 ms 14.260 ms
> 14.759 ms
> 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088
ms 14.948 ms 14.765
ms
> 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331
ms 27.930 ms 28.293
ms
> 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114)
78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479
ms
> 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142)
67.265 ms
> ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123)
44.158 ms
> ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142)
50.006 ms
> 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490
ms
> ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347
ms
> ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628
ms
> 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net
(213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms
42.313 ms
> 40.571 ms
> 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms
> te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms
> te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms
> 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms
> te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms
> te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms
> 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms
> te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms
> 147.097 ms
> 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms
150.014
> ms 150.329 ms
> 16
vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170)
167.084
> ms 156.374 ms
>
vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166)
158.136
ms
> 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms
155.902 ms 152.225 ms
> 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893
ms 179.548 ms 167.528
ms
> 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22)
157.149 ms 151.804 ms
151.915
> ms
> 20 * * *
> 21 * * *
> 22 * * *
> 23 * * *
> 24 * * *
> 25 * * *
> 26 * * *
> 27 * * *
> 28 * * *
> 29 * * *
> 30 * * *
> 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517
ms !X *
> 32 * * *
> 33 * * *
> 34 * * *
> 35 * * *
> 36 * * *
> 37 * * *
> 38 * * *
> 39 * * *
> 40 * * *
> 41 * * *
> 42 * * *
> 43 * * *
> 44 * * *
> 45 * * *
> 46 * * *
> 47 * * *
> 48 * * *
> 49 * * *
> 50 * * *
> 51 * * *
> 52 * * *
> 53 * * *
> 54 * * *
> 55 * * *
> 56 * * *
> 57 * * *
> 58 * * *
> 59 * * *
> 60 * * *
> 61 * * *
> 62 * * *
> 63 * * *
> 64 * * *
> root at kg-quiet#
>
> Is it working ok for everyone else?
> --
> Regards,
> Torfinn Ingolfsen
> Oslo, Norway
Works OK for me, here is my tracert:
1 8 ms 3 ms <1 ms JUPITER
[192.168.0.1]
2 42 ms 22 ms 26 ms 10.236.80.1
3 29 ms 66 ms 9 ms
oldh-cam-1a-v100.network.virginmedia.net
[80.5.1
65.13]
4 11 ms 24 ms 12 ms
manc-core-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net
[195.
182.180.37]
5 25 ms 23 ms 18 ms
manc-bb-1a-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net
[213.10
5.175.1]
6 22 ms 31 ms 49 ms
manc-bb-1b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net
[62.253
.187.178]
7 34 ms 45 ms 35 ms
nrth-bb-1a-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net
[213.10
5.64.21]
8 30 ms 29 ms 15 ms
nrth-tmr-1-ae1-0.network.virginmedia.net
[213.10
5.159.30]
9 64 ms 54 ms 43 ms
fran-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net
[62.253.
185.81]
10 76 ms 51 ms 54 ms
te0-7-0-7.mpd22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com
[130.11
7.14.133]
11 144 ms 138 ms 120 ms
te0-2-0-6.mpd22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
[130.11
7.51.230]
12 138 ms 186 ms 155 ms
te0-0-0-4.mpd22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
[154.54
.40.234]
13 137 ms 145 ms 155 ms
te0-1-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
[154.54
.6.178]
14 184 ms 142 ms 141 ms
te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com
[154.54.27.
30]
15 173 ms 146 ms 158 ms
38.20.47.170]
16 165 ms 165 ms 180 ms 38.104.146.10
17 163 ms 151 ms 146 ms host42.datotel.com
[208.82.151.42]
18 147 ms 151 ms 161 ms
stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com [208.82.151.22]
19 151 ms 140 ms 155 ms host50.datotel.com
[208.75.82.50]
20 146 ms 163 ms 158 ms
209-145-130-66.accessus.net
[209.145.130.66]
21 147 ms 160 ms 163 ms louie.classiccmp.org
[209.145.140.17]
Regards
Rob
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:30:07 -0700
From: Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com>
Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E70BE at 505fuji>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
-----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony
Duell
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was
Re: nonsense...]
>
> > > I'd like to hear more about what
constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a
> > > n00b in this respect.
> >
> > Just what it sounds like. :-)
> >
> > When an item comes into the collection, it
is assigned an accession
> > number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where
nnn represents order in
> > which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm
is the individual number
> > of each piece that makes up the item. If a
piece is made up of
> > parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter
can be suffixed to the
> > piece number for each part to make it
possible to keep them
> associated
> > even if physically apart. Leading zeroes
should be used in the item
> > and piece numbers.
>
> What do you mean by
'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an
> item being made of several pieces, but why do you
need a third level
> here?
>
> In the case of a classic computer, what would you
label? The casing?
> The
> individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the
case of taking 2
> effectively identical machines acquired at
differnet times and using
> parts from bvth to make one working example, or
would a museum never do
> that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy
to be broken!).
>
Yes. :-)
Seriously: we do encounter this situation. When a
machine comes in, it is
catalogued as an entity. If we find it necessary to
remove a component
from machine A to install in machine B, the component
is separately
catalogued with a note in the record stating that it
was originally part
of machine A.
I did this recently with a machine that came as a
system containing an
RK05 drive identified as non-functional. We used the
RK8-E from that
machine with another PDP-8/e that also had RK05 drives
but no RK8-E.
That would not be appropriate for a machine that is
historically
significant in its particular configuration (for
example, our PDP-12), but
that's a hard argument to make for the vast
majority of PDP-8/e's. And
given the records we keep, we could restore the
accession to its original
configuration if needed.
It's always a judgement call when one must balance
preservation and
restoration. -- Ian
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:52:03 -0400
From: "MikeS" <dm561 at torfree.net>
Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <C254F6585ED7493FB620AF800A7CA4F5 at
vl420mt>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed;
charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700
From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600)
> That would be fun to find. There was a version
that I used in the late
> 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to
it. I think I still have
> all of the software for it.
----
And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the
GIC8000 and GIMINI and
the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is
the computer ;-)
mike
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:53:10 +0100
From: Dan Williams <williams.dan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTinSeMiB8LqMnhemRO9Gkq56Ov5wGO6oZfeYtG0P
at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 21 October 2010 20:12, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus
at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 07:12:03PM +0100, Dan
Williams wrote:
>> I'm sure these will be popular: ?I have
8x big heavy drive DSSI drive
>> units. They have not been powered up for a
few years. They have
>> scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They
currently have 1GB and 2GB
>> full height drive units in them. But they can
take up to 9GB.
>> I also have cabling which I have to sort out
mainly for SUN and DEC. I
>> have all the cabling for the dssi drives and
a lot of monitor and
>> other cables for Vaxstation 3100's.
>
> I'm curious about that SCSI->DSSI
converter. Is it used to run dssi
> disks on a scsi controller or scsi disks on a
dssi controller ?
>
> The latter would be interesting.
>
> Regards,
> Pontus.
>
It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a
front panel and you
can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk.
It is a
liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone
is interested.
Dan
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:08:48 -0700
From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4CC0B9F0.5000705 at bitsavers.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/21/10 2:52 PM, MikeS wrote:
> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700
> From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
> Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
>
> On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600)
>
>> That would be fun to find. There was a
version that I used in the late
>> 70's that had a DSD floppy disk
interfaced to it. I think I still have
>> all of the software for it.
> ----
> And I've got some brochures and datasheets
for the GIC8000 and GIMINI
and the various cards and chips in them, so all we
need is the computer ;-
)
>
I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments
on bitsavers a
couple of weeks ago.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:26 -0400
From: Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: the new manx is live
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTinTe5iYUGDnrsygRs+4XuFwxrGweoN+rEDL6fMg
at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard <legalize
at xmission.com> wrote:
>
> In article
<AANLkTikFFFKKo=6Ba=6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp+WO-
gfLNyM at
mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com>
> >,
> Torfinn Ingolfsen <tingox at gmail.com>
writes:
>
> > Is it working ok for everyone else?
>
> Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted
on the same group of
> machines that serves this mailing list and
several other classic
> computing sites graciously hosted by Jay.
>
>
very nice !
Can we always request to add addt'l companies ?
SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours.
=Dan
--http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:51:54 -0600
From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com>
Subject: Re: the new manx is live
To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <E1P93zG-0005Jz-CS at
shell.xmission.com>
In article
<AANLkTinTe5iYUGDnrsygRs+4XuFwxrGweoN+rEDL6fMg at mail.gmail.com>,
Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> writes:
Can we always request to add addt'l companies ?
> SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours.
This first round was just to reproduce the existing
manx.
Next up is to add users and roles to provide for
community additions.
Contributions of code are welcome. The whole code
base has been
developed test-driven and is covered by unit tests.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX
9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood!
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:02 -0700
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at
sydex.com>
Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4CC06472.12811.1626E31 at
cclist.sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 21 Oct 2010 at 15:08, Al Kossow wrote:
I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments
on bitsavers a
> couple of weeks ago.
Well, I've got the CP1600 CPU sitting unused in my
hellbox and the
blue manual that gives the schematics for the system.
But no
firmware listing for the monitor...
BTW, did anyone notice that there's a fellow on
eBay offering the
INS8900 (PACE in NMOS) NOS CPUs for about $16 the
each?
--Chuck
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:06 -0700
From: Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com>
Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCB91 at
505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: Tony Duell
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM
>> When an item comes into the collection, it is
assigned an accession
>> number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where
nnn represents order in
>> which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm
is the individual number
>> of each piece that makes up the item. If a
piece is made up of
>> parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter
can be suffixed to the
>> piece number for each part to make it
possible to keep them associated
>> even if physically apart. Leading zeroes
should be used in the item
>> and piece numbers.
> What do you mean by
'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an
> item being made of several pieces, but why do you
need a third level
here?
I was trying not to re-use the same word for different
levels.
You donate items to a museum, let's say for
simplicity's sake a horse shoe
and a tea service with 4 individually decorated cups
and matching saucers,
pot, sugar and creamer.
You do this in 2010. That's the first field of
the accession numbers.
The two items are the 75th and 76th donated to the
museum this year.
These numbers will be the second fields of the
respective accession
numbers.
The horse shoe will receive accession number
2010.075.001, and be marked
as 2010.75.1
The tea pot will be 2010.076.001; the sugar,
2010.076.002; the creamer,
2010.076.003; the first cup-and-saucer pair,
2010.076.004A and
2010.076.004B;
and so on. The reason for pairing the cup and saucer
will be the matching
decoration on each pair.
You could also simply number each piece individually,
but then you lose
information.
> In the case of a classic computer, what would you
label? The casing? The
> individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the
case of taking 2
> effectively identical machines acquired at
differnet times and using
> parts from bvth to make one working example, or
would a museum never do
> that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy
to be broken!).
I'll start with the last comment. The policy will
depend on the purpose
of the museum; no two museums have identical missions,
though they may be
very close. A computer museum with a mission of
making systems run will
have a very different answer to your question than a
museum dealing with
the history of engineering laboratories, where the
identical computers
may have been used for very different purposes and be
important to the
understanding of how each lab achieved its goals.
(Not every museum tries
to please everyone in the know about a topic--there
are art museums which
I find deadly dull, and art museums I love to visit
over and over, for
example.) Neither policy is "broken", they
simply differ.
Computers are more difficult to catalog than tea
services. My personal
preference would be to replicate the
manufacturer's bill of materials,
assigning accession numbers at each level down to the
circuit boards (or
equivalent, in the case of large valve-based modules,
but those don't
crop up in the time frame in which we have
specialized). Since the
catalog here was set up by someone else several years
before I joined
the team, I have to accommodate myself to what is in
place--we're not in
a position to re-catalog several thousand pieces my
way.
We catalog the top-level items (CPU, disk drives, tape
drives, printers,
etc.) when they come in. The low-level items (disk
packs and cartridges,
tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier: Loose items, like
spare boards, are
catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in
larger items only
get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or
replacement.
It takes discipline to catalog pieces when you would
really rather be
restoring a system to working condition, but without a
catalog, you will
very quickly lose all semblance of provenance, and
your reason for being
a museum.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:09:31 -0400
From: Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com>
Subject: Re: HTL
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTimgJ80NcGDTXXwhRHZFDfbzy_reGtCe65juy5Ax
at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:27 PM, William Donzelli
<wdonzelli at gmail.com>wrote:
> Maybe a retarded question, but how static
sensitive are HTL chips?
>
> Why do you ask?
I have quite a few HTL chips that I have no use for.
-chuck
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:23:11 -0700
From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4CC0E77F.3000005 at bitsavers.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/21/10 4:04 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges,
> tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier
But necessary.
We're discovering that systems were accepted in
Boston with no boards in
them,
for example, and there is nothing in the accession
record that mentions
that
fact.
It's absolutely necessary to know if anything that
should be in an
accessioned
artifact is missing, and the condition.
It is a huge amount of work to catalog a collection.
One of the requirements for museum accreditation is
having a significant
portion of your collection cataloged.
CHM has come a LONG way since I've been here. We
have just under 75,000
items
visible in the on-line data base
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:37:58 -0700
From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com>
Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W286E3F0A65E7EDCFA0F5C3A35E0 at
phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi
I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it
is working as expected.
When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down
but the tape drive motor doesn't move.
Is this normal?
Dwight
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at
sydex.com>
Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67 at
cclist.sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote:
I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it
> is working as expected.
> When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down
> but the tape drive motor doesn't move.
> Is this normal?
My recollection of this drive is that the tape should
be
automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e.,
the drive
should spin the tape a bit).
--Chuck
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:13:36 +0200
From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20101022051336.GA15674 at
Update.UU.SE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:53:10PM +0100, Dan Williams
wrote:
>
> It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a
front panel and you
> can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk.
It is a
> liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone
is interested.
It would be a lovely thing to have. I live in sweden
and unless you find
someone local and wouldn't mind shipping I
wouldn't mind paying for it.
Well, it depends on the size of course, how big is
this thing?
/P
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:16:37 +0200
From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: the new manx is live
Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20101022051637.GB15674 at
Update.UU.SE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
This is a semiuseful tool:
Good work everyone! Manx is an awesome tool! Many
thanks.
/Pontus
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:10:28AM +0200, Torfinn
Ingolfsen wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard
<legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
> > Manx is an online catalog of computer
documentation.
> >
> > The new manx is up for beta testing here:
<http://manx.classiccmp.org>
> >
>
> I seem to be having problems reaching the site.
> Details:
> root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org
> traceroute to classiccmp.org (209.145.140.17), 64
hops max, 52 byte
packets
> 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms
0.158 ms
> 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms
86.825 ms
> 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1)
15.481 ms 14.011 ms
14.051
> ms
> 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30)
17.763 ms * 59.706 ms
> 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70)
18.365 ms 14.260 ms
> 14.759 ms
> 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088
ms 14.948 ms 14.765
ms
> 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331
ms 27.930 ms 28.293
ms
> 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114)
78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479
ms
> 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142)
67.265 ms
> ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123)
44.158 ms
> ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142)
50.006 ms
> 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490
ms
> ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347
ms
> ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628
ms
> 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net
(213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms
42.313
> ms 40.571 ms
> 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms
> te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms
> te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms
> 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms
> te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms
> te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms
> 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms
> te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms
> 147.097 ms
> 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms
150.014
> ms 150.329 ms
> 16
vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170)
167.084
> ms 156.374 ms
>
vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166)
158.136
> ms
> 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms
155.902 ms 152.225 ms
> 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893
ms 179.548 ms 167.528
ms
> 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22)
157.149 ms 151.804 ms
151.915
> ms
> 20 * * *
> 21 * * *
> 22 * * *
> 23 * * *
> 24 * * *
> 25 * * *
> 26 * * *
> 27 * * *
> 28 * * *
> 29 * * *
> 30 * * *
> 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517
ms !X *
> 32 * * *
> 33 * * *
> 34 * * *
> 35 * * *
> 36 * * *
> 37 * * *
> 38 * * *
> 39 * * *
> 40 * * *
> 41 * * *
> 42 * * *
> 43 * * *
> 44 * * *
> 45 * * *
> 46 * * *
> 47 * * *
> 48 * * *
> 49 * * *
> 50 * * *
> 51 * * *
> 52 * * *
> 53 * * *
> 54 * * *
> 55 * * *
> 56 * * *
> 57 * * *
> 58 * * *
> 59 * * *
> 60 * * *
> 61 * * *
> 62 * * *
> 63 * * *
> 64 * * *
> root at kg-quiet#
>
> Is it working ok for everyone else?
> --
> Regards,
> Torfinn Ingolfsen
> Oslo, Norway
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:57:55 -0500
From: Nick Allen <nick.allen at comcast.net>
Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a
PC (Operation
Alto Restoration)
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4CC0E193.9070101 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
Al and everyone else,
I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo
Model 31 with a
PC computer (I assume so, since he uploaded the Alto
diskpacks up to
bitsavers.org). Al, Can you (or anyone else) please
provide the steps
on how to do so?
If I can verify the disk drive is working, and the
disk packs have valid
data on them, this would be yet another step completed
in getting the
alto up and running =)
Thanks!
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:26:49 -0500
From: Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech
at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4CC10479.2020902 at tx.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/18/2010 6:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote:
>> From: Christian Corti<cc at
informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
>>
>> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote:
>>> don't believe its true, I was told my
machine is currently the oldest
>>> original working computer. Not counting
replicas or machines which
don't
>>> have stored programs. My machine was
installed in 1962 (and designed
in
>>> the late 1950s).
>>
>> Then you've been told wrong.
>> Several examples:
>> - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still
working with peripherals.
Just
>> yesterday I've had a group of
visitors. It's been designed around
1954.
>> - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in
Sindelfingen (working)
>> - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also
built around 1958
(apparently
>> still working, although the ZKM is not the
right place for it IMHO)
>> All are original first generation machines,
and all of them are in
>> southern Germany.
>>
>>> restored was first installed in 1964. Are
there other? I'm not
counting
>>> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored
program machine, and anyway
I'm
>>> not sure if it is a replica or the
original. It is surprising if it
>>> survived the extensive bombing by the
USAF and RAF during WW2 unless
it
>>> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine.
>>
>> What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has
been destroyed, yes, and
>> rebuilt by Zuse in 1962.
>
> Thank you, this is just the information I wanted.
>
> Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete?
>
> If it is, then it would be useful to know when
the rebuilt version
became operational, though I'm not actually sure
the actual month my
machine went live either.
>
> Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program,
than my list so far is:
>
> 1958, LGP-30
> 1958, Zuse Z22
> Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650
> 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest
surviving machine with
random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and
called Immediate
Access Store by ICT).
>
> Thanks again.
>
> I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of
several more when I
catch up with my e-mails.
>
>
>
According to this:
650 was installed at a customer site in December,
1954.
I thought this was pretty interesting as well:
It indicates the 701 was around in 1952. I'm not
sure if you want to
limit your list to core memory or not. It appears
that the 701's
internal memory consisted of a drum and a CRT. In any
case, I need to
waste a lot more time exploring these pages. :-)
Later,
Charlie C.
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:23:44 -0700
From: "r.stricklin" <bear at
typewritten.org>
Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <D428CDED-9195-48F5-B183-3CE5930788D1
at typewritten.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII;
format=flowed
On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
> When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and
down
> but the tape drive motor doesn't move.
> Is this normal?
It could be, depending on firmware.
ok
bear
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:53:46 +0200
From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <20101022085346.5c1f9ec0.jkunz at
unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:00 +0100
Roger Holmes <roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk>
wrote:
> 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest
surviving machine
> with random access program and data storage.
Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and
data storage,
just with a bit lattency...
I don't know how and when the Z22 at the ZKM is
operated now. When it
moved to the ZKM there where weekly operating hours
with demonstrations
done by the former maintainers of the machine.
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST)
From: Christian Corti <cc at
informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1010221057001.21272 at
linuxserv.home>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII;
format=flowed
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and
data storage,
> just with a bit lattency...
Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access.
A random access
storage is defined by the fact that addressing any
arbitrary cell needs
the same time.
But the Z22 has a small amount of core memory, too,
called
"Schnellspeicher", i.e. "fast
memory".
Christian
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:11:53 +0100
From: Roger Holmes <roger.holmes at
microspot.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Oldest original working proper computer
(stored program
etc)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <C1C3379B-1DCB-412A-B3C3-43252EF6DC0E
at microspot.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> From: "Rod Smallwood" <rodsmallwood
at btconnect.com>
>
>
> And we have a winner!!
>
>
> The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948)
> It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube,
enough to demonstrate
the
> stored-program principle in working electronics,
the first in the world
to
> do so
>
> Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A
von Neumann
> ?
No, sorry the ORIGINAL Manchester Baby no longer
exists. Fellow members of
the Computer Conservation Society have built a
replica, correct in almost
every respect but it is only a few years old so does
not qualify as oldest
original working stored program computer. I still
would like to make a
list of the top ten not just the top one.
------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:11:20 +1100
From: Simon Fryer <fryers at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: lilith computer by wikipedia
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTinYKzyw+HKKc3FS9EAFdkrLis0n1NX-KnAO=rcx
at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 22/10/2010, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Yes, and made the mistake of buying one.
Couldn't believe it when it
>> actually arrived. I left an interesting
review on Amazon.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title (or have a
URL) for this? I wonder
> how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles
feel about this? I know
> I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with
something I'd written.
ISBN 10: 1155452186
ISBN 13: 978-1155452180
Title: ICL Mainframe Computers: Leo, English Electric
Kdf8, Elliott
803, Ict 1900, ICL 2900 Series, English Electric Kdf9,
Ict 1301
By: Books LLC
Electric/dp/1155452186/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
>> Only upside, it is in a more convenient
format for reading while on the
>> toilet.
>
> And for other uses in that location?
The paper isn't really too soft. It might be okay
in an emergency.
Simon
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well, an engineer is not concerned with the
truth; that is left to
philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an
engineer is
the utility of the final product."
Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials,
L.Solymar, D.Walsh
------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:27:37 -0700
From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack
on a PC
(Operation Alto Restoration)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4CC19149.5030409 at bitsavers.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/21/10 5:57 PM, Nick Allen wrote:
> Al and everyone else,
>
> I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo
Model 31 with a PC
computer
I used a program that runs on the Alto and copies
sectors across through a
PC parallel port.
Could you take pictures of the labels on the packs? I
normally supplied a
couple of them
with the machines that came from me, and could tell
pretty quickly if they
need to be copied.
------------------------------
Message: 25
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:07:24 -0700
From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W644821C0BBBE562CFC5863A35E0 at
phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
> From: cclist at sydex.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700
> Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
>
> On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote:
>
> > I just got this use drive and I was
wondering if it
> > is working as expected.
> > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and
down
> > but the tape drive motor
doesn't move.
> > Is this normal?
>
> My recollection of this drive is that the tape should
be
> automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e.,
the drive
> should spin the tape a bit).
>
> --Chuck
>
>
Thanks Chuck
I was afraid of that. That was my recollection
of similar drives. Now I have to find out why the
motor
doesn't spin.
As I recalled, if the tape was accidentally loaded
with the end of tape marker off the spool, it would
unspool the hole thing and it would then be a 30
minute job to spool it back on.
I'll have to look at the motor drive and see what
is up.
The fact that I see the head moving gives me
confidence
that it is most likely the motor drive circuit.
This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you
recall
my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I
thought
I'd try a drive that was inteneded.
Dwight
Dwight
------------------------------
Message: 26
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:13:34 -0400
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4CC19C0E.3060509 at neurotica.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/22/10 10:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
> This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you
recall
> my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I
thought
> I'd try a drive that was inteneded.
8mm drives were sold with early SPARCstations and
SPARCservers as
well, FYI. An 8mm drive will work fine if it's
properly set up.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46
**************************************
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