And thusly Curt Vendel spake: Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was available for the PC? (Other then name) Cheers, Bryan

Here's an interesting history tidbit... the Tramiels were so strapped for cash when they took over Atari, that in order to pay DRI for the work on GEM 68K for the ST computers.... they paid DRI with the VAX 11/750 located in the Atari Grass Valley R&D lab which was closed shortly after. I spoke with Ron Milner, one of the original Atari engineers and he explained how one day Gary Kildall and crew were in the R&D computer room disconnecting the Vax and was explained that it was their "payment" for developing a new OS for the Tramiels. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Walker" <lgwalker(a)mts.net> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 2:36 PM Subject: Re: GEM-OS Windows. for the Cartridge

OK. This thread has been causing a tickle in the back of my head for days. I finally went digging in my old came-with-what-I-wanted-at- auction boxes, and I have two unrelated sets of GEM stuff. 1 box 5.25 floppies: Sleeves labelled "AMSTRAD PC System Discs", colored disks labelled: (red) DISC [sic] 1, MICROSOFT MSDOS OPERATING SYSTEM STARTUP & UTILIIES v3.2 (blue) DISC 2, GEM STARTUP v2.0U. (green) DISC 3, GEM DESKTOP v2.0U. /Locomotive BASIC 2 v1.0 (yellow) DISC 4, DOS Plus STARTUP & Utilities v1.2/GEM PAINT v1.0U Other: Bad Dudes IBM-Program Disk Bad Dudes IBM-Data Disk Read 'n Roll Program and Data For IBM and Compatibles Read 'n Roll Stories level 1-2-3-4 For IBM and Compatibles Talking Word Attack Plus! Program and Data Disk for IBM, Tandy and Compatibles Talking Word Attack Plus! Speech Disk for IBM, Tandy and Compatibles MATH BLASTER PLUS! Program and Data for IBM and Compatibles MATH BLASTER MYSTERY Program Disk For IBM, Tandy and Compatibles MATH BLASTER MYSTERY Data Disk For IBM, Tandy and Compatibles WHERE IN THE U.S.A. IS CARMEN SANDIEGO? DISK 1 WHERE IN THE U.S.A. IS CARMEN SANDIEGO? DISK 2 And, in the shrinkwrap, a package of 5.25" disks, a book titled GEM Artline by CCP, and a smaller book titled GEM/3 Desktop User's Guide. There's a small paper label on the package that says DAK # (70230) 5.25" GEM/3/ARTLINE/HIJAAK HD The logo on the books is Digital Research but the EULA on the software envelope is from DAK Industries Inc. Unfortunately, I don't have a PC set up to try all this out. I think I got the 2 sets in different auctions at different places, but I know I've had them since before I was seriously collecting. They were useless junk when I got them. Heh. For all I really know, they still are. Doc

I love it ! Still giggling. This puts various things into perspective

Amiga legend. Even the Hasbro sale and Atari demise is related to the precarious monetory origins of the Tramiel fortune. One would have thought he came out of the Commodore thing fairly flush Lawrence > Here's an interesting history tidbit... the Tramiels were so strapped

> cash when they took over Atari, that in order to pay DRI for the work on

> for the ST computers.... they paid DRI with the VAX 11/750 located in

> Grass Valley R&D lab which was closed shortly after. I spoke with Ron

> one of the original Atari engineers and he explained how one day Gary

> and crew were in the R&D computer room disconnecting the Vax and was

> that it was their "payment" for developing a new OS for the Tramiels. > > > Curt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lawrence Walker" <lgwalker(a)mts.net> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: GEM-OS > > > > They had a common origin in GEM 1.2. The ST GEM ran on top of TOS. > > The guy who wrote it for DRI (Lee Lorenzen) was one of the Xerox Parc > > people who really developed the GUI as well as mouse usage. Jobs > > glommed his Mac ideas as well as numerous coders from Parc and then > > sued DRI for copying the Mac. He won and DRI was forced to cripple

> > versions and never marketed it very seriously even tho it preceded > Windows. > > For some reason Apple didn't go after the ST or Ventura Publisher

> > used GEM. Lorenzen was one of the founders of Ventura. > > > > Lawrence > > > > > And thusly Curt Vendel spake: > > > > > > > > Don't forget Diamond which is a GEM TOS "look-alike" version

> for the > > > > Atari 8bits which original came on disk and then came on Super > Cartridge > > > > format. Designed by Reevesoft. > > > > > > > > > > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was

lgwalker(a)mts.net bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com

Well, yes and no. first of all, it didn't run ontop of TOS ... TOS was tha name given by Atari to the whole OS software, including GEM. TOS looks like: BIOS/XBIOS GEMDOS (and GEM BIOS) VDI (and GDOS) AES DESKTOP The lowest layer is the BIOS, which is quite similar to a PC BIOS. Youll find most of the PC BIOS functions - realy, it looks amazing similar. Beside the BIOS there's the XBIOS for extended Functions, like screen base handling etc. The XBIOS also included functions for sound handling (interrupt driven play lists etc.) or the basic keyboard maps. On the falcon the DSP handling was done thru XBIOS calls. I'm not shure, but IIRC the very basic graphic primitives (set point, line draw, any kind of bitblit operations) where also handled by the XBIOS thru a service called Line A function, a feature provided by the 68K CPU - all opcodes sarting with Ax where reserved and lead to an exception. The basic idea of in the ST desin was to make graphic primitives as extened opcodes, so they could introduce a graphic coprocessor later on to speed up tha execution - and until then do it by software. The BIOS handles all basic setup stuff and the 'boot' process - usualy scanning disks for boot code to be executed. These boot files are usualy onl add ons (like hard disk drivers) and return to the BIOS, which finaly loads GEMDOS from ROM. Of course there could be a real boot process of a different OS, or a (newer) disk version of TOS. Next in Row is the GEMDOS. If you ever played with the DOS interface (Int 21h) of PC DOS >2.0, you know exactly what you find. Literaly a copy of DOS. Even the function numbers are the same. Due the different processor structur parameter passing was different. You had to push all parameters on the stack and issue a TRAP instruction (The BIOS did it the IBM way in registers). Even some internal structures where _very_ similar to MS-DOS 2.x - inclunding the bufeer handling. To be correct, internaly GEMDOS had anoter part called GEM BIOS, which was supposed to be a hardware independent BIOS ... well, or something like that. the structures where somewhat mixed, so one should considere GEMDOS/GEM BIOS as one thing. What DRI/Atari did until here was more or less recreating a PC DOS like environment, so GEM could be running on top. GEM itself was composed of two parts: the VDI (Virtual Device Interface) and the AES (Aplication Environment Services). The VDI did handle all graphic operations available to GEM programms. from line drawing to text output. All programm operations where made on to virtual devices, while the VDI did map them to real coordinates on real devices. To load new device drivers the GDOS (Graphics Device Operating System) was supplied. On the ST the GDOS was quite important, since the ROM only included a driver for the standard ST screen, mouse and keyboard. To use the device independant luxury of GEM with printers or whatever, new Drivers had to be made ... now, such a concept was in 1986 still revolutionary, so a lot of programms still used classic style printer drivers. It took several years (until ~ 1990) to get most applications realy use the advantages of the VDI (and GEM). Doesn't that sound like the storie of Win 3.x :) Well, the next (and for GEM topmost) layer is the AES. The AES did all the usual work of a GUI: Dialog boxes, menue bars, pop up menues, input fields, drop worn lists, window handling, etc. pp. The AES also offered services to support a desktop application - linke reading and writing the shell file (Which would be called WIN.INI under Windows :) As the final part, TOS included the DESKTOP.APP application, which supplied the user visible dektop. CP/M compatibility: As for the CP/M issue someone mentioned. I'm not shure if there ever was a GEM for CP/M. but there was the GSX (Graphic System eXtension). which incooperates most features of VDI and AES. Even things like the "application controll block" (Sorry, no idea about the original name), a structure which held all information about the actual prog, the used resources etc., basicly the root to build a multi tasking or at least multi application system (a part of the AES) was already available in GSX. Also all sata structures used for the VDI where exactly the same as found in the GSX. GEM is a real sraight foreward development from GSX (and CP/M 3.0). It may be true that the tale of CP/M 68k beening an accessor of TOS is originated on the fact that the first development tools sold by Atari where one on one ports of DRI tools for CP/M 68K - and noone did edit the manuals at all - you you found CP/M 68K mentioned on every other page. Also, if you where an early developer, you got a development version of CP/M 68k to run on a ST. Interesting. GEM and the PC: On the PC only the AES and VDI parts made up GEM. Apple never sued DRI about GEM itself. All the wuss was about DESKTOP.APP, the shell. When DRI lost, only the shell had to be changed, which lead to the infamous two window design of DESKTOP.APP in GEM 3 and up. Application programms where not included. And the Publisher didn't use DESKTOP.APP, but was the application itself. DRI did continue to develop GEM afterwards for some time, but with the 'fixed' DESKTOP.APP, sales where not as good as it could be. GEM itself did get some inprovements, especialy with additional drivers and so on for GEM 3 and 4 - and all you had to do is install the new version and then copy back your old DESKTOP.APP :) In fact GEM was a real good example of hardware independant programming. At this time I used a SIEMENS PC-D as main computer. A 80186 machine with NO IBM hardware compatibility at all. GEM 1.2 was the only Version ever ported to this computer, but is was no problem at all to install GEM 2 and GEM 3 on the machine from standard PC distributions. All I had to do was to put the SIEMENS specific drivers back into the right directories and add their name to the driver lists. I liked it a real lot. Anyway History H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/

I guess we loved the system ... Maybe the Amiga/Atari wars where nowhere else fought with the same vigilance than in Germany ... Youd rather dumped your friends than admiting that the other machine could be more worth than the dirt under your nails.