18 Jun
2009
18 Jun
'09
8:36 a.m.
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:21:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Doc <doc at vaxen.net>
Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) (continued...)
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
It should
'just boot' into the Installer. The Happy Mac you briefly get
indicates that the Mac can see the disc, and the System Folder on it, so
the CD-ROM is undoubtedly working. I'm still thinking about RAM being a
problem, mind you, but your unit may just be plain broken if it's
throwing
bus errors.
Or the terminator is bad, or if it's external, he's using an Iomega
25->50-pin "SCSI" cable.... 
18 Jun
18 Jun
8:46 a.m.
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Jeff Walther<trag at io.com> wrote:
I would check along the lines that Doc suggested.
?Some times Apple's "bus
failure" means a SCSI bus failure.
Make sure that the SCSI chain is properly terminated. ?If you're using
internal and external devices, confirm that both ends are terminated
properly and neither end is double terminated. ? Check the SCSI IDs being
used by all devices on the chain.
Go ahead and just pull the SIMMs on the motherboard. ?There's 4 MB on the
logic board and that should be enough to boot from, or if it gets that
far, you'll get a message about lack of memory, which is further than
you're getting now. ?If that happens, hold down the shift key during boot
to not load extensions. ?That will often save enough memory to allow
booting in 4 MB.
I don't remember the beginning of this thread, but isn't there a suspicion
that the internal hard drive is malfunctioning? ? Disconnect the internal
hard drive completely, and only connect the CD-ROM drive. ?That will
simplify your SCSI chain, and eliminate electronic babbling from the hard
drive as a possibility.
So, basically, pull the RAM and all SCSI devices other than the CDROM,
make sure the CD-ROM drive is terminated and set to some ID other than 7
(SCSI ID 3 is traditional for CD-ROMs in a Mac) and try that. ? Also
double check the cable you're using and try a different one if the first
does not work.
Once you get a successful boot, you can try adding things back in.
Thanks, I'll give it a shot. I'm not sure about the internal
termination situation. This is just a jumper on the hard drive,
right? I think the 3.5" half height drives didn't use resistor packs.
I know there's no separate terminator on the ribbon cable inside.
I'll swap out the cable and terminator.
As far as I know, the hard drive is ok.
I ordered another OS cd which should be here shortly. This one is a
new one so it shouldn't be suspect.
I supposed it's possible that the cdrom drive could be bad. I ordered
it used from ebay. It's been behaving exactly as expected though so I
believe it's ok.
brian
19 Jun
19 Jun
7:42 a.m.
I will state this: do not buy any other parts for the machine until you've
swapped or replaced ram. reason being, it took me to replacing a
motherboard, power supply, floppy drive, and hard drive in a Mac SE, and
several days of wasted time, just to one day discover that I had bad RAM in
my machine, and that was causing the floppy to act erratic, the hard drive
not to detect in hd setup, the computer would stall during OS install. sad
macs, from what i've seen, half the time are ram issues.
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com>wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Jeff Walther<trag
at io.com> wrote:
I would check along the lines that Doc suggested.
Some times Apple's
"bus
failure" means a SCSI bus failure.
Make sure that the SCSI chain is properly terminated. If you're using
internal and external devices, confirm that both ends are terminated
properly and neither end is double terminated. Check the SCSI IDs being
used by all devices on the chain.
Go ahead and just pull the SIMMs on the motherboard. There's 4 MB on the
logic board and that should be enough to boot from, or if it gets that
far, you'll get a message about lack of memory, which is further than
you're getting now. If that happens, hold down the shift key during boot
to not load extensions. That will often save enough memory to allow
booting in 4 MB.
I don't remember the beginning of this thread, but isn't there a
suspicion
that the internal hard drive is malfunctioning?
Disconnect the internal
hard drive completely, and only connect the CD-ROM drive. That will
simplify your SCSI chain, and eliminate electronic babbling from the hard
drive as a possibility.
So, basically, pull the RAM and all SCSI devices other than the CDROM,
make sure the CD-ROM drive is terminated and set to some ID other than 7
(SCSI ID 3 is traditional for CD-ROMs in a Mac) and try that. Also
double check the cable you're using and try a different one if the first
does not work.
Once you get a successful boot, you can try adding things back in.
Thanks, I'll give it a shot. I'm not sure about the internal
termination situation. This is just a jumper on the hard drive,
right? I think the 3.5" half height drives didn't use resistor packs.
I know there's no separate terminator on the ribbon cable inside.
I'll swap out the cable and terminator.
As far as I know, the hard drive is ok.
I ordered another OS cd which should be here shortly. This one is a
new one so it shouldn't be suspect.
I supposed it's possible that the cdrom drive could be bad. I ordered
it used from ebay. It's been behaving exactly as expected though so I
believe it's ok.
brian
9:38 a.m.
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Brian Lanning<brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
> Make sure that the SCSI chain is properly
terminated. ?If you're using
> internal and external devices, confirm that both ends are terminated
> properly and neither end is double terminated. ? Check the SCSI IDs being
> used by all devices on the chain.
There was a resistor pack (looked like an IC) on the hard drive, but
it wasn't seated correctly. I pushed it in, but no change. I'll keep
looking.
brian
12:09 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Brian Lanning<brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Brian
Lanning<brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
It was the disk. I have a new 7.6.1 cd that's currently booting. It
worked the first try. :-)
Thanks for the help. We'll see how far I get this time.
brian
> Make sure that the SCSI chain is properly
terminated. ?If you're using
> internal and external devices, confirm that both ends are terminated
> properly and neither end is double terminated. ? Check the SCSI IDs being
> used by all devices on the chain.
There was a resistor pack (looked like an IC) on the hard drive, but
it wasn't seated correctly. ?I pushed it in, but no change. ?I'll keep
looking.
12:30 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Brian Lanning<brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the help. ?We'll see how far I get this
time.
Not very apparently. :-)
So the 7.6.1 installer refuses to find the hard drive in the machine.
It says there's no suitable hard drive on the scsi bus. I don't know
the scsi id of the hard drive, but I tried two different IDs for the
cdrom drive. Of course, it's a fight to get it to boot from the CD
instead of finding the hosed hard drive, usually takes me 4 or 5
attempts. I have another scsi disk I could put in the machine. But
think there's probably a way to make this one work. Does anyone have
any idea what's happening?
brian
12:38 p.m.
Brian Lanning wrote:
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Brian
Lanning<brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
7.6.1 will only speak to Apple-branded SCSI disks. However, there's
a patched set of MacOS 7.6.1 disk tools out there, shouldn't be hard to
google up.
Quick starter page:
http://lowendmac.com/sable/07/mac-drive-setup-patch.html
Doc
Thanks for the help. We'll see how far I get
this time.
Not very apparently. :-)
So the 7.6.1 installer refuses to find the hard drive in the machine.
It says there's no suitable hard drive on the scsi bus. I don't know
the scsi id of the hard drive, but I tried two different IDs for the
cdrom drive. Of course, it's a fight to get it to boot from the CD
instead of finding the hosed hard drive, usually takes me 4 or 5
attempts. I have another scsi disk I could put in the machine. But
think there's probably a way to make this one work. Does anyone have
any idea what's happening? 
12:54 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Doc<doc at vaxen.net> wrote:
Yeah. I still have an Apple-branded 20MB and 400MB drive on the shelf
for my old Mac stuff. Once you are up, you can install the FWB
Toolkit to drop a brand-less driver on the front of your non-Apple
drive, but getting up from original Apple media without an Apple drive
was something of a challenge back in the day - normally, all Apple
machines _came_ with Apple drives, so you were only totally screwed if
your original drive died (or if you got a used machine that someone
else replaced the drive in).
I remember having all kinds of trouble with this about 12-14 years
ago. I used floppy-based Macs in the early days (pre System-6.0),
then went away (to Amigas and such), and when I came back to Macs
newer than the Mac SE (Quadras and Mac IIs and such), I found several
parts of the experience maddening - top of the list was Apple drive
branding.
Thanks for pointing out the patches, Doc. I would have *loved* to
have had those back in 1996-1997.
-ethan
?7.6.1 will only speak to Apple-branded SCSI
disks. ?However, there's a
patched set of MacOS 7.6.1 disk tools out there, shouldn't be hard to google
up.
Shoot me.
1:36 p.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Brian Lanning
<brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Doc<doc at vaxen.net> wrote:
>> 7.6.1 will only speak to Apple-branded SCSI disks. However, there's a
>> patched set of MacOS 7.6.1 disk tools out there, shouldn't be hard to google
>> up.
> Shoot me.
<snippy>
Thanks for pointing out the patches, Doc. I would
have *loved* to
have had those back in 1996-1997.
You're welcome.
They were around, at least by '97. I was overjoyed to find out I
wasn't going to have to pay near-kilobux for a replacement disk....
Brian, I *think* I have a bootable CD with the patched HD Setup tools
on it. If so, it'll be a 500-650MB download, burnable with anything
that can burn a raw file. It has a lot of other awesome stuff on it,
like the "Om" program.
Want it? I can upload it tonight so it's available for download
tomorrow.
Doc
1:43 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Doc<doc at vaxen.net> wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
?Brian, I *think* I have a bootable CD with the patched HD Setup tools on
it. ?If so, it'll be a 500-650MB download, burnable with anything that can
burn a raw file. ?It has a lot of other awesome stuff on it, like the "Om"
program.
?Want it? ?I can upload it tonight so it's available for download tomorrow.
That would be awesome doc, please do.
And by raw file, do you mean an ISO or something that's been applefied?
And what's the Om program?
brian
1:49 p.m.
Brian Lanning wrote:
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Doc<doc at
vaxen.net> wrote:
it's HFS format, so not ISO9660, but any bruning app that will just
scribble the image onto the CDR will work.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Brian, I *think* I have a bootable CD with the patched HD Setup tools on
it. If so, it'll be a 500-650MB download, burnable with anything that can
burn a raw file. It has a lot of other awesome stuff on it, like the "Om"
program.
Want it? I can upload it tonight so it's available for download tomorrow.
That would be awesome doc, please do.
And by raw file, do you mean an ISO or something that's been applefied? And what's the Om program?
It just chants "Ommmmmmmmmmm" :^)
Doc Shipley
1:55 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Doc<doc at vaxen.net> wrote:
I'm going to need some meditation after this. I'm certainly starting
to look like a monk now that I've pulled all my hair out.
brian
?it's HFS format, so not ISO9660, but any bruning
app that will just
scribble the image onto the CDR will work.
ok, I'm sure I can find something.
And what's
the Om program?
?It just chants "Ommmmmmmmmmm" ?:^) 
21 Jun
21 Jun
2:50 p.m.
Brian Lanning wrote:
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Doc<doc at
vaxen.net> wrote:
I'm going to need some meditation after this. I'm certainly starting
to look like a monk now that I've pulled all my hair out.
:^) Welcome to Classic Computing!
I'm still looking for that CD - I may have to set up the IIci and
make a new image. I'm in the midst of a huge spring cleaning project,
so things are a little disorganized here.
Doc
it's HFS format, so not ISO9660, but any
bruning app that will just
scribble the image onto the CDR will work.
ok, I'm sure I can find something.
And
what's the Om program?
It just chants "Ommmmmmmmmmm" :^)
22 Jun
22 Jun
11:01 a.m.
thanks. it appears that I can now read mac floppies on my xp box.
this was a disk I formatted on the quadra. so I think I can get the
utilities over there now. my problem now is that the utilities are in
a bin file. I can't seem to get them out or manage to write the bin
to a disk that the quara can read. if you have the disk utility handy
an could email it to me, I coul probably get it going.
alternatively, if you know of a program that can write mac bin files
on xp, that would work also. rawrite seems to not work.
On 6/21/09, Doc Shipley <doc at docsbox.net> wrote:
Brian Lanning wrote:
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Doc<doc at
vaxen.net> wrote:
I'm going to need some meditation after this. I'm certainly starting
to look like a monk now that I've pulled all my hair out.
:^) Welcome to Classic Computing!
I'm still looking for that CD - I may have to set up the IIci and
make a new image. I'm in the midst of a huge spring cleaning project,
so things are a little disorganized here.
Doc
it's HFS format, so not ISO9660, but any
bruning app that will just
scribble the image onto the CDR will work.
ok, I'm sure I can find something.
And
what's the Om program?
It just chants "Ommmmmmmmmmm" :^)
19 Jun
19 Jun
1:39 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Ethan Dicks<ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Brian Lanning
<brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm back to the chicken or egg problem then. I have the disk image,
and it seemed to write correctly with rawrite on my usb floppy. But
the quadra claims that it's not formatted. Same for pc formatted
disks. Could be a bad drive. But most likely it's a bad disk.
This hard drive *has* MacOS on it. Shouldn't it work then? I got the
feeling that they were using some sort of disk compression with it. I
might be wrong though. Maybe it doesn't matter.
I considered burning a cdrom with some utilities on it. But I can't
get the cdrom drive to eject. I guess it doesn't want to give up its
system disk. And I'm not sure I can create an image it would read
anyway. And I'm not sure I can get at the file in the bin file.
I think I have a pci scsi controller somewhere. I could pull the disk
and put it in my vista machine. If this were an amiga, I could use
WinUAE and format the disk and install. I don't think such a thing
exists for the mac though.
I do have the IIfx I haven't tried to revive yet. That one requires
the magic black external terminator so I suspect the 600e won't work
with it. I've been meaning to get a nubus scsi controller for it to
get around this. Not sure if that would work though. It might be an
apple branded drive. I believe it's a quantum 1" disk. That's
probably worth a try.
brian
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Doc<doc at vaxen.net> wrote:
Yeah. ?I still have an Apple-branded 20MB and 400MB drive on the shelf
for my old Mac stuff. ?Once you are up, you can install the FWB
Toolkit to drop a brand-less driver on the front of your non-Apple
drive, but getting up from original Apple media without an Apple drive
was something of a challenge back in the day - normally, all Apple
machines _came_ with Apple drives, so you were only totally screwed if
your original drive died (or if you got a used machine that someone
else replaced the drive in).
I remember having all kinds of trouble with this about 12-14 years
ago. ?I used floppy-based Macs in the early days (pre System-6.0),
then went away (to Amigas and such), and when I came back to Macs
newer than the Mac SE (Quadras and Mac IIs and such), I found several
parts of the experience maddening - top of the list was Apple drive
branding. ?7.6.1 will only speak to Apple-branded SCSI
disks. ?However, there's a
patched set of MacOS 7.6.1 disk tools out there, shouldn't be hard to google
up.
Shoot me.
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days inactive
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15 comments
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brianlanning＠gmail.com -
doc＠docsbox.net -
doc＠vaxen.net -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
jlobocki＠gmail.com -
trag＠io.com