26 Nov
2019
26 Nov
'19
2:16 p.m.
I posted on the discord channel looking for information on measuring the
keys (ACE cylinder locks) for duplication.
I'm including a quote from a post by Jay on the subject.? I need to get
the information on measuring the depths of the cuts, as the postings
I've found don't mention how the depths are measured for each value.
I have an ACE key for an IBM 9370 mod 20 I'm measuring. Found a post by
Jay from 2016
Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 18 15:57:30 CDT 2016
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI - the key codes I measured previously for Data General and HP have
been cut, tested, and verified. Amazingly, my measurements were correct.
So to summarize: XX2247 Code: 5173757 Use: DEC PDP-8 (all varieties),
PDP-11 machines that do not use an ACE blank (11/24, 11/44)
Anyone have a reference on the depths of the Code values? There's
another post with depths, but not explicitly calling out what each
number equates to.
My master has a DND legend on the back, so I will need to get a copy cut
and tested via codes, and will publish it when I find out that it works.
Dennis Boone post:
Allegedly Control Data used a National C415A on Network Processing Unit
cabinets in the late 70s, early 80s. That's an Ilco 1069-N, cuts are
12343 from bow to tip. Cut spacings are .156 .249 .342 .435 .528. Depths
are 1=.250 2=.225 3=.200 4=.175.
The Boone post has numbers, but they make no sense WRT the post Jay
posted (which has 7 depth values)
Also need to know if metric or inches.
26 Nov
26 Nov
2:33 p.m.
I think there was a long thread about this in the DEC section of the VCFED
site. Sticky, so at the top of the forum.?
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On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 5:16 PM -0500, "jim stephens via cctalk" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
I posted on the discord channel looking for information on measuring the
keys (ACE cylinder locks) for duplication.
I'm including a quote from a post by Jay on the subject.? I need to get
the information on measuring the depths of the cuts, as the postings
I've found don't mention how the depths are measured for each value.
I have an ACE key for an IBM 9370 mod 20 I'm measuring. Found a post by
Jay from 2016
Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 18 15:57:30 CDT 2016
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI - the key codes I measured previously for Data General and HP have
been cut, tested, and verified. Amazingly, my measurements were correct.
So to summarize: XX2247 Code: 5173757 Use: DEC PDP-8 (all varieties),
PDP-11 machines that do not use an ACE blank (11/24, 11/44)
Anyone have a reference on the depths of the Code values? There's
another post with depths, but not explicitly calling out what each
number equates to.
My master has a DND legend on the back, so I will need to get a copy cut
and tested via codes, and will publish it when I find out that it works.
Dennis Boone post:
Allegedly Control Data used a National C415A on Network Processing Unit
cabinets in the late 70s, early 80s. That's an Ilco 1069-N, cuts are
12343 from bow to tip. Cut spacings are .156 .249 .342 .435 .528. Depths
are 1=.250 2=.225 3=.200 4=.175.
The Boone post has numbers, but they make no sense WRT the post Jay
posted (which has 7 depth values)
Also need to know if metric or inches.
2:57 p.m.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
I think there was a long thread about
this in the DEC
section of the VCFED site. Sticky, so at the top of the forum.?
and here.
look since 2011 for subject lines containing "XX2247", and/or "Ace
Key"
I have some of those posts, so let me know if you want a hand finding
them.
2:40 p.m.
I need to get the information on measuring the depths
of the cuts, as
the postings I've found don't mention how the depths are measured for
each value.
For Chicago/ACE, cut depths from 1 to 8 respectively are:
0.0155" 0.0310" 0.0465" 0.0620" 0.0775" 0.093" 0.1085"
0.1240"
For Fort/GEM, depths are numbered 0 to 7, but the measurements are the
same as for Chicago/ACE.
Looking into the end of the key, pin numbering is:
Chicago: #1 at eleven o'clock, proceed counterclockwise to #7 at one
o'clock.
Fort: #1 at one o'clock, proceed clockwise to #7 at eleven o'clock.
Presumably they had to avoid a patent. ;)
Offset rotations of the pin placements are possible. The non-rotated
kind has the indexing pin halfway between pins 1 and 7. For Fort/GEM,
if the #1 pin is further from the indexing pin, it's "left offset"; the
opposite direction is "right offset".
Secondary cuts are possible, where there's another channel cut into the
same rotation as the primary cut, but shallower into the wall, and
further along the length of the wall. Hopefully that's not involved
here.
I have an ACE key for an IBM 9370 mod 20 I'm
measuring.
Questions -
Does it have a number stamped on it? I'll try to look it up if so.
Do you know if these are per-machine, or all machines the same? I'd
like to collect the data in case it's the latter.
De
6:43 p.m.
On 11/26/2019 2:40 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
For Chicago/ACE, cut depths from 1 to 8 respectively
are:
0.0155" 0.0310" 0.0465" 0.0620" 0.0775" 0.093" 0.1085"
0.1240"
For Fort/GEM, depths are numbered 0 to 7, but the measurements are the
same as for Chicago/ACE.
Looking into the end of the key, pin numbering is:
Chicago: #1 at eleven o'clock, proceed counterclockwise to #7 at one
o'clock.
I found another reference.? different numbers slightly.
https://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42870
There are a couple different numbering systems. The pin lengths are the
same, but the number
given to that particular length is different. Fort Lock, such as the Gem
and Apex locks go clockwise
if you are looking down the barrel of the key from the tip. The Chicago
Ace style goes counter-clockwise.
Fort Lock numbers them from 1-8 while Chicago goes 0-7.
Fort Lock/Chicago Ace/Depth of cut
1----------0----------.016"
2----------1----------.032"
3----------2----------.048"
4----------3----------.064"
5----------4----------.080"
6----------5----------.096"
7----------6----------.112"
8----------7----------.128"
What I have measured so far.? This starts with the index up, first slot
to the right, going CCW.
Index pin? meas value
????????????????depth
1.
?.0460 ? 3
2.
?.0770 ? 5
3.
?.0770 ? 5
4.
?.1090 ? 7
5.
?.0460 ? 3
6.
?.0795 ? 5
7.
?.1080 ? 7
Here are photos of the key.
https://imgur.com/a/yCPwaR0
--30--
7:47 p.m.
I found another reference. different numbers
slightly.
These are just rounded from four places to three. Since the step is
.0155, the tolerances are probably a couple of thousandths anyway.
What I have measured so far. This starts with the
index up, first
slot to the right, going CCW.
Thanks for these. Sure you meant CCW from one o'clock?
De
2:41 p.m.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
I posted on the discord channel looking for
information on measuring the keys
(ACE cylinder locks) for duplication.
I'm including a quote from a post by Jay on the subject.? I need to get the
information on measuring the depths of the cuts, as the postings I've found
don't mention how the depths are measured for each value.
With a depth mike (or improvise) laid across the face of the key, measure
how deep the cylinder "section" cut is.
There is nothing stopping a manufacturer from using different depths
and/or different nomenclature (for instance, Schlage and Kwikset house
keys have different depths, and different numberings)
Besides depth, there are a couple of differnt spacings (7 V 8 cuts?), and
even different center peg diameters (hence the cheap pick tools on e-Bay
have 3 variations 7.2mm, 7.5 and 7.8)
But, fortunately, most follow the leader.
In SOME localities, code cutting is severely restricted, and sometimes
requires that you provide proof of ownership of the lock (physically bring
it in and/or formal request on your letterhead)
If you have the lock in hand, many locksmiths will ignore the DND,
assuming thet YOU are the one placing that there.
'course some will duplicate a key with a piece of tape over the DND!
The numbers stamped on the key rarely correspond algorithmically to the
depths. Instead, they are a pseudo-random identification of the key, and
a well equipped locksmith can look those up in a "Code Book" to get the
depths that are required.
For example, XX2247 is one of the most common for minicomputers.
There are also "Depgh And Space" books that identify the distance between
cuts, and what depth distance corresponds to what depth number. But, here
is THAT information:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith
but I'm not), but
according to...
http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and
_Depth
The depths by number are:
1 - 0.0155"
2 - 0.0310"
3 - 0.0465"
4 - 0.0620"
5 - 0.0775"
6 - 0.093"
7 - 0.1085"
8 - 0.1240"
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
4 p.m.
For $60 or $70 on eBay, you can get the KLOM tubular key cutter. It is
similar, but not the same as the more expensive HPC TKM-90 "Pocket Cut-Up"
With a little careful work, you CAN cut them with a drill press.
4:27 p.m.
On 11/26/2019 4:00 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
For $60 or $70 on eBay, you can get the KLOM tubular
key cutter.? It
is similar, but not the same as the more expensive HPC TKM-90 "Pocket
Cut-Up"
With a little careful work, you CAN cut them with a drill press.
Thanks everyone, Fred, Richard and Dennis.? Dennis's numbers line up
with the measurements I have, so can get a code.
I didn't know what to look for for a cutter, thanks, Fred.
A friend in KCMO has a contact that cuts any key with the code numbers
that Jay / Dennis have published, will get him
to cut a key. He charges $6.00 and is a locksmith. The system is
currently in Kansas City, Mo, and he can try it to see if it works,
and we can tune any errors out.
Dennis, the Key is "IBM" logo with the stripped logo style on one side
of the handle of the key, and DND legend on
the other.? Suggests either all are the same, not requiring a code, or
they just didn't bother because they're IBM.
I'll publish it and email Dennis and Jay to be sure that the code gets
saved.
Thanks
Jim
5:11 p.m.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
I didn't know what to look for for a cutter,
thanks, Fred.
There are much better ones, for a price.
The HPC TKM90 is better. ~$350
The Herty Gerty? is better. ~$380
HPC Duplicode ~$1000?
The KLOM is the cheapest by far.
I don't see a frequent enough need to spend the money.
Many of the tubular key picks can also be used to decode the key and/or
the lock after it is picked open.
Dennis, the Key is "IBM" logo with the
stripped logo style on one side of the
handle of the key, and DND legend on
the other.? Suggests either all are the same, not requiring a code, or they
just didn't bother because they're IBM.
Sometimes they are all the same.
Sometimes machines come with a dummy lock for anything that will fit the
keyhole; sometimes an extra-price option for a real lock
Sometimes there is no printed code.
Sometimes the code is stamped on a key, sometimes it is not.
Sometimes it will be on the face of the lock.
Sometimes it will be on the back of the lock.
Sometimes it will be on a piece inside the lock.
Sometimes it is on the original paperwork with a admonishment to save it,
or on a paper tag tied to the original key.
OT: On a Datsun 280ZX, it is on a paper label inside the glove box
On some cars it is on ONE of the lock cylinders inside ONE of the doors.
(it helps to have access to such information in advance)
4:50 p.m.
Fred said
For $60 or $70 on eBay, you can get the KLOM tubular
key cutter. It is
similar, but not the same as the more expensive HPC TKM-90 "Pocket Cut-Up"
With a little careful work, you CAN cut them with a drill press.
The barrel key sounds like something that could be done in OpenSCAD, parametrically, and
printed in metal from Shapeways. For instance they have a 60% steel / 40% bronze mix as
well as others.
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10 comments
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participants (5)
-
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
drb＠msu.edu -
jwsmail＠jwsss.com -
rich.cini＠verizon.net -
steven＠malikoff.com