6 Aug
2014
6 Aug
'14
3:21 a.m.
What will someone give me for this beast?
I have no room for it - it will be dismantled.
Located in Orange County, CA 92656
Model 5322:
Predates the "IBM PC" by 1 month
Intel 8085
Weight 95 lbs
Two built-in 8-inch floppy drives
BASIC in ROM
8 Aug
8 Aug
5:49 a.m.
On Aug 5, 2014, at 20:21 , steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
Model 5322:
Predates the "IBM PC" by 1 month
Intel 8085
Weight 95 lbs
Two built-in 8-inch floppy drives
BASIC in ROM
Do any of y'all know if documentation and/or software for this interesting-looking
beast exists out in the wild? Does it require a boot disk to do things other than BASIC,
like a PC would? I found this old TV advertisement for it on the YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhskfSpGxMA
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
7:49 a.m.
On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:21 PM, steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
Model 5322:
Predates the "IBM PC" by 1 month
Intel 8085
Has it ever been conclusively proven this was based on an 8085, that
is the modernised Intel 8-bit 8080?
I'm a little surprised that with the Displaywriter based on an 8086
and the IBM PC on the 8088, why an 8085? did IBM use 8-bit
microprocessors in any other contemporary desktop-level products?
4:18 p.m.
On Aug 8, 2014, at 12:49 AM, Nigel Williams <nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com>
wrote:
On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:21 PM, steven stengel
<tosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
See my earlier post. Yes it was *definitely* an 8085 with additional HW to
allow for up to 128KB of ROM and 128KB of RAM.
The internal SW automatically handled dealing with "page" crossings and
allocations. I can't remember exactly the size of a page (1K seems to stick
in my mind but it could be 16K as well...too long ago). The other cool thing
was that all of the memory allocation was automatic and garbage collected.
That required the internal SW to recompute the physical address of an "object"
that was being used if something was invoked that could have caused a
garbage collection.
Model 5322:
Predates the "IBM PC" by 1 month
Intel 8085
Has it ever been conclusively proven this was based on an 8085, that
is the modernised Intel 8-bit 8080?
I'm a little surprised that with the Displaywriter based on an 8086
and the IBM PC on the 8088, why an 8085? did IBM use 8-bit
microprocessors in any other contemporary desktop-level products?
Because the DataMaster was started before the 8088 was available. The SW
took *way* longer than expected because of several changes in direction. At
first the BASIC was its own variant. Then it was to be compatible with the
5110/5120. The final change (and what we ultimately shipped) was to be
compatible (more or less) with S/34. Which BTW is why it's called System/23
Datamaster. The name was intended to imply that S/23 and S/34 were related.
BTW because of the lateness of S/23, an interim project the 5120 was done
(basically a repackaged 5110) so that there was a current product in the
market.
TTFN - Guy
1:39 p.m.
Do any of y'all know if documentation and/or
software for this
interesting-looking beast exists out in the wild? Does it require a
boot disk to do things other than BASIC, like a PC would?
These were small business DP systems. Hardware-wise, the line included
a desktop model, a deskside model, a shared hard-disk unit, several
printers, a network option in the megabit range that utilized thick
twinax cable and (iirc) a star topology, a serial communications (for a
modem) option, and likely other things. Screens were high persistence
green phosphor, with at least two intensities for text. I don't
remember point addressable graphics. Keyboards were IBM-style buckling
spring; as I recall the layout was slightly unique. Floppies were 8",
fairly capacious, reasonably quick, quite reliable. Printers were big,
fast, dot matrix, top mounted tractor feed. I think at least one model
included a multi-pass NLQ mode. Draft mode was IBM-esque, with dotted
zeros and an odd diagonal 'S' character. Construction is pure IBM, with
reliability and serviceability in spades.
I haven't seen electronic stuff online. I have paper docs for a couple
of models and some of the options, as well as not-yet-imaged floppies
containing diagnostics. I do intend to get them scanned/imaged
eventually, I swear. Strong need and urgent pleas for specific things
may add motivation. :)
No boot disk is required. A fair amount of the available software was
actually written in BASIC. At least a few utilities were compiled or
assembled binaries, but as far as I recall, even those were not booted
from floppy.
The BASIC is an extremely capable business type, with forms, file/disk
handling, ISAM type functionality, etc. It was even possible to do
serial communications over a modem with it reasonably well, other than
some limitations in keyboard handling. I'm not sure if adding the
network and remote disk added code on adapter cards to support those
things, or if the support was in the base unit firmware.
IBM offered the usual AR/AP/GL/Inventory/etc packages. I'm sure there
was a word processing tool, though I can't seem to remember anything
about it. There was an application generator tool called BRADS
(business rapid application development system or thereabouts, I think).
The "rapid" part was ironic; while it was certainly faster to build some
sorts of simple applications with it than to write them from scratch,
BRADS itself was pretty slow. I'm sure IBM had other offerings. I
think I also recall seeing a directory of third-party applications,
though for the life of me I don't recall anything about what was on
offer. I don't believe there was a customer option to write code in
anything other than BASIC.
The weight of 90 lbs for the desktop unit is not a joke. Besides being
built like an IBM product, those 8" floppy drives are stout, and
constitute a significant chunk of the mass.
I've not dug far enough into my desktop unit to read the markings on the
CPU chip, but a few bits like register layout shown in the maintenance
documentation match the 8085. I'm pretty sure these systems use a paged
memory layout, at least for the firmware. It's the only way they could
provide all the functionality that's in there.
De
4:41 p.m.
On Aug 8, 2014, at 6:39 AM, Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> wrote:
The differences in the systems were just in the shared storage (floppy or
eventual hard disk). All of the compute was in the "head".
Do any of
y'all know if documentation and/or software for this
interesting-looking beast exists out in the wild? Does it require a
boot disk to do things other than BASIC, like a PC would?
These were small business DP systems. Hardware-wise, the line included
a desktop model, a deskside model, a shared hard-disk unit, several
printers, a network option in the megabit range that utilized thick
twinax cable and (iirc) a star topology, a serial communications (for a
modem) option, and likely other things. Screens were high persistence
green phosphor, with at least two intensities for text. I don't
remember point addressable graphics. Keyboards were IBM-style buckling
spring; as I recall the layout was slightly unique. Floppies were 8",
fairly capacious, reasonably quick, quite reliable. Printers were big,
fast, dot matrix, top mounted tractor feed. I think at least one model
included a multi-pass NLQ mode. Draft mode was IBM-esque, with dotted
zeros and an odd diagonal 'S' character. Construction is pure IBM, with
reliability and serviceability in spades.
I haven't seen electronic stuff online. I have
paper docs for a couple
of models and some of the options, as well as not-yet-imaged floppies
containing diagnostics. I do intend to get them scanned/imaged
eventually, I swear. Strong need and urgent pleas for specific things
may add motivation. :)
If I recall correctly, the "library" was 23 volumes.
No boot disk is required. A fair amount of the available software was
actually written in BASIC. At least a few utilities were compiled or
assembled binaries, but as far as I recall, even those were not booted
from floppy.
As I recall, the CSFs were binaries that were loaded off of floppy.
The BASIC is an extremely capable business type, with forms, file/disk
handling, ISAM type functionality, etc. It was even possible to do
serial communications over a modem with it reasonably well, other than
some limitations in keyboard handling. I'm not sure if adding the
network and remote disk added code on adapter cards to support those
things, or if the support was in the base unit firmware.
I know that the external floppies were supported in the ROM as shipped.
I don't recall how the support for the HD was done. The ROM *was*
patchable but I doubt that entire device support would have been done
that way.
My guess (from 35+ year old memory) is that there was code on the
I/O card that handled the actual low level operations of the disk.
The weight of 90 lbs for the desktop unit is not a joke. Besides being
built like an IBM product, those 8" floppy drives are stout, and
constitute a significant chunk of the mass.
I don't recall them being quite that heavy. But I was a lot younger then. ;-)
And the reality was that we didn't move them around much. We just had
labs *full* of them (20-30 each). Even then we had to schedule time to
use/debug one.
I've not dug far enough into my desktop unit to read the markings on the
CPU chip, but a few bits like register layout shown in the maintenance
documentation match the 8085. I'm pretty sure these systems use a paged
memory layout, at least for the firmware. It's the only way they could
provide all the functionality that's in there.
Yep. It's an 8085. There was paging hardware (and some cool low level
SW to go with it). As I'm thinking about it now, I think it was 16K pages.
A fixed code page, a fixed data page, a variable code page and a variable
data page.
The memory/page management was all done at a low level and the majority
of the rest of the code didn't really know the details. Memory was allocated
as "objects" and you got a "handle" to an object. You could then get
a physical
mapping of the object. Which you needed to do anytime you wanted to
manipulate the contents of the object. To prevent fragmentation (and to make
sure there weren't memory leaks) garbage collection was done. So if the
code did any sort of memory operation, you had to re-evaluate the physical
address of the object because it could have been moved in memory.
In the code, you could explicitly free an object but the garbage collector would
reclaim any object that didn't have a reference to it. I remember that there was
a trick to prevent a newly allocated from being immediately reclaimed if the GC
ran before the object was referenced from something else. Too long ago to
remember the details.
Damn, it's all starting to come back now.
TTFN - Guy
13 Aug
13 Aug
1:54 a.m.
Well, I'm now the happy new caretaker of this System/23! I'm still at work, and
haven't had a chance to power it up for the first time myself to play with it. I'm
told it works, though the floppy drives are untested and it doesn't include any disks.
If extra copies or images of the previously mentioned CSF disks are out there, then I
would be interested in obtaining them!
I don't know yet whether I'll end up keeping this interesting machine long-term,
or will instead learn about it and then pass it along to the next caretaker. Maybe
it'll gradually work its way around the country, one local pickup or delivery at a
time? :)
I'll start playing with it sometime between tonight and this weekend, and I'll see
how far I can get by blindly poking at it. I think it'll be a fun machine to explore.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
2:06 a.m.
On Aug 12, 2014, at 6:54 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
Well, I'm now the happy new caretaker of this
System/23! I'm still at work, and haven't had a chance to power it up for the
first time myself to play with it. I'm told it works, though the floppy drives are
untested and it doesn't include any disks.
You *have* to post this up for Big Blue Week on RetroBattlestations!
http://redd.it/2d5lx9
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
2:21 a.m.
On Aug 12, 2014, at 19:06 , Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
On Aug 12, 2014, at 6:54 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at
nf6x.net> wrote:
Wow! I hadn't heard of that before, and the timing is perfect!
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
Well, I'm now the happy new caretaker of this
System/23! I'm still at work, and haven't had a chance to power it up for the
first time myself to play with it. I'm told it works, though the floppy drives are
untested and it doesn't include any disks.
You *have* to post this up for Big Blue Week on RetroBattlestations!
http://redd.it/2d5lx9
6:12 a.m.
I brought the System/23 in to the house from my truck this evening. Now I'm laying on
an ice bag to counteract the inevitable back strain. :)
I can type in a "Hello, World!" type program and run it. Naturally, I used my
standard test program for old BASIC machines first:
10 print "Butts! ";
20 goto 10
It appears to word-wrap automatically when I used the semicolon. It has a shift lock key
rather than a caps lock key, and the shift lock is disengaged by pressing a shift key
rather than pressing the shift lock again -- i.e., it works like a typewriter, rather than
most common computers do nowadays. That makes sense for a machine's target market, I
think.
Other than that, I haven't figured out how to do other significant things with it yet.
I did dig around inside; there's plenty of dust to clean out, but it seems to be in
good shape overall. It's clearly designed with field maintenance in mind. I was
surprised to find that its hex-head screws use a 3mm metric hex key instead of an inch
one, but that single hex key breaks the unit down into subassemblies pretty easily.
There are various annunciators printed along the bottom of the screen; some make sense,
and some are cryptic. The green text screen can display at least two levels of brightness.
I've been making very frequent use of the error reset key, but I don't know the
meanings of the error numbers yet.
I have't tried sticking in any blank disks yet, since I figure I should try cleaning
the heads first. I haven't examined the drives carefully enough yet to determine
whether they're single-sided or double-sided. For that matter, I don't know
whether the machine uses soft sectored or hard sectored disks.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
2:23 p.m.
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 1:12 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I brought the System/23 in to the house from my truck
this evening. Now I'm laying on an ice bag to counteract the inevitable back strain.
:)
I can type in a "Hello, World!" type program and run it. Naturally, I used my
standard test program for old BASIC machines first:
10 print "Butts! ";
20 goto 10
I believe that is the correct testing procedure for this model.
I acquired one of these last year also but sadly, mine doesn't get as
far. Power goes on, there's a slight hum, no drive activity and
nothing on the screen. Too bad, as it's in good shape, externally.
Another ~100lb project for the pile...
j
4:08 p.m.
Pretty cool. I've wished more than once for a shift lock key on modern
keyboards, LOL.
Best,
Sean
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 2:12 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I brought the System/23 in to the house from my truck
this evening. Now
I'm laying on an ice bag to counteract the inevitable back strain. :)
I can type in a "Hello, World!" type program and run it. Naturally, I used
my standard test program for old BASIC machines first:
10 print "Butts! ";
20 goto 10
It appears to word-wrap automatically when I used the semicolon. It has a
shift lock key rather than a caps lock key, and the shift lock is
disengaged by pressing a shift key rather than pressing the shift lock
again -- i.e., it works like a typewriter, rather than most common
computers do nowadays. That makes sense for a machine's target market, I
think.
Other than that, I haven't figured out how to do other significant things
with it yet. I did dig around inside; there's plenty of dust to clean out,
but it seems to be in good shape overall. It's clearly designed with field
maintenance in mind. I was surprised to find that its hex-head screws use a
3mm metric hex key instead of an inch one, but that single hex key breaks
the unit down into subassemblies pretty easily.
There are various annunciators printed along the bottom of the screen;
some make sense, and some are cryptic. The green text screen can display at
least two levels of brightness. I've been making very frequent use of the
error reset key, but I don't know the meanings of the error numbers yet.
I have't tried sticking in any blank disks yet, since I figure I should
try cleaning the heads first. I haven't examined the drives carefully
enough yet to determine whether they're single-sided or double-sided. For
that matter, I don't know whether the machine uses soft sectored or hard
sectored disks.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
4:48 p.m.
On 08/13/2014 09:08 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
Pretty cool. I've wished more than once for a
shift lock key on modern
keyboards, LOL.
That's easy enough to do, since AFAIK, modern keyboards all use table
lookup. You can even have both a shift-lock and a caps-lock key if
you'd like.
Some of my older systems really do have a mechanical shift-lock
key--press it and it stays down until the shift key is pressed to
release it. A standard Keytronic option when ordering a keyboard--along
with alternate-action keys.
I prefer the modern LED-indicated locks myself. Catches the eye more
easily than a depressed key. I wonder if there are transparent-key
keyboards where the background LED color changes with an active shift-lock.
--Chuck
5:56 p.m.
On Aug 13, 2014, at 09:48 , Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I prefer the modern LED-indicated locks myself.
Catches the eye more easily than a depressed key. I wonder if there are transparent-key
keyboards where the background LED color changes with an active shift-lock.
It appears that the shift lock indicator on this Datamaster is a single number on the
bottom row of the screen, which will be 1 for unshifted, 2 for shifted/shift-locked, or 3
for alt.
I just posted a couple of grainy phone pictures of my magnificent new beast:
http://www.nf6x.net/2014/08/ibm-system23-datamaster/
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
6:04 p.m.
On Aug 12, 2014, at 19:06 , Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
You *have* to post this up for Big Blue Week on
RetroBattlestations!
http://redd.it/2d5lx9
I've posted it up in that subreddit. Thanks!
I'm a complete noob on reddit. I see that many posts there have a gray box that reads
"Big Blue Week" before their titles, but mine doesn't. How would I add that?
I started my title with "[Big Blue Week]" as I saw in several other posts, but
that doesn't seem to be the magic incantation.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
6:18 p.m.
On Aug 13, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I'm a complete noob on reddit. I see that many
posts there have a gray box that reads "Big Blue Week" before their titles, but
mine doesn't. How would I add that? I started my title with "[Big Blue
Week]" as I saw in several other posts, but that doesn't seem to be the magic
incantation.
The gray box is called "flair" and only I can add it in that subreddit. I use it
to mark valid contest entries so I don't want people to just do it on their own. I
already saw the post and added the flair to it.
I'd sure like to know what IBM was thinking when they made the keycaps for that and
the Model F. Why did they put tiny keys in the center of the big keys?
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
6:39 p.m.
On Aug 13, 2014, at 11:21 , Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
Ever seen a Selectric typewriter, kid.
Selectrics have the small cap on a larger key to a certain extent, but the lower right key
on a System23 keyboard really takes it to an extreme.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
6:35 p.m.
On Aug 13, 2014, at 11:18 , Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
The gray box is called "flair" and only I
can add it in that subreddit. I use it to mark valid contest entries so I don't want
people to just do it on their own. I already saw the post and added the flair to it.
Aha! Thanks for the explanation.
I'd sure like to know what IBM was thinking when
they made the keycaps for that and the Model F. Why did they put tiny keys in the center
of the big keys?
Yeah, that's weird.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
9:22 p.m.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Aug 12, 2014, at 19:06 , Chris Osborn <fozztexx at fozztexx.com> wrote:
A friend of mine may have docs or disks for that system. When she gets a
chance she'll check her attic and get back to me.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
You *have* to post this up for Big Blue Week on
RetroBattlestations!
http://redd.it/2d5lx9
I've posted it up in that subreddit. Thanks!
I'm a complete noob on reddit. I see that many posts there have a gray
box that reads "Big Blue Week" before their titles, but mine doesn't.
How would I add that? I started my title with "[Big Blue Week]" as I saw
in several other posts, but that doesn't seem to be the magic
incantation.
9:30 p.m.
On Aug 13, 2014, at 14:22 , geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
A friend of mine may have docs or disks for that
system. When she gets a chance she'll check her attic and get back to me.
Cool! Thank you both very much!
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
9:39 p.m.
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Aug 13, 2014, at 14:22 , geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
You're quite welcome! If you don't hear from me by Friday, email me
directly and I'll contact her.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
A friend of mine may have docs or disks for that
system. When she gets a chance she'll check her attic and get back to me.
Cool! Thank you both very much!
8 Aug
8 Aug
4:09 p.m.
On Aug 7, 2014, at 10:49 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
On Aug 5, 2014, at 20:21 , steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:
BASIC and the internal OS (such as it is) are in ROM. To do other utility like things
(copy diskettes,
format them, etc) you need the "CSF" diskette(s). CSF = Customer Support
Facility as I recall.
System/23 was the precursor to the PC at IBM. This is true for several reasons:
1. It was the first "computer" at IBM that didn't use an IBM
microprocessor. It's what allowed
management to go forward with an "open" PC design that contained a
majority of non-IBM
designed components.
2. The PC being on a short schedule and tight budget re-used a lot from the
System/23. The
I/O bus is actually the System/23 I/O bus rotated 180 degrees (so that you
couldn't use the
cheaper PC cards in the System/23).
I never did much with the CSF stuff because I was working on the ROM code. I wrote about
~20%
of the code in the ROM. Mainly it was the input/output data formatting,
"floating" point code (which
is actually all done in 17 digit BCD with exponents) and reconstituting the source when
you did a
LIST.
It was all written in 8085 assembler.
TTFN - Guy
Model 5322:
Predates the "IBM PC" by 1 month
Intel 8085
Weight 95 lbs
Two built-in 8-inch floppy drives
BASIC in ROM
Do any of y'all know if documentation and/or software for this interesting-looking
beast exists out in the wild? Does it require a boot disk to do things other than BASIC,
like a PC would? I found this old TV advertisement for it on the YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhskfSpGxMA
3765
days inactive
3772
days old
23 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
drb＠msu.edu -
fozztexx＠fozztexx.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
nw＠retrocomputingtasmania.com -
scaron＠umich.edu -
silent700＠gmail.com -
tosteve＠yahoo.com