On Wed, 2020-05-27 at 14:57 -0700, geneb wrote: That I knew. It's just that the email that was sent sounded pretty ominous. TTFN - Guy

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: Makes no sense, I am sure it's only temporary. The artifacts are not going anywhere, but there is always so much to do, this is a great time to retool and prepare to re-open a-fresh b

This related story makes the situation a bit scarier. https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-enterta… <https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/vulcan-to-close-its-arts-entertainment-division-which-includes-cinerama-and-seattle-art-fair/> Ian

Aw shit.... (Where is the nearest U Haul?) CZ On 5/27/2020 8:13 PM, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote:

most museums? of? all? varieties? are? closed? still....? the? smart? ones? will remain? so? for? a? while? longer...the foolish will jump? the? gun.Ed# sdIn a message dated 5/27/2020 2:57:12 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Wed, 27 May 2020, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: They've been closed to visitors since early March I think. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby.? Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

https://www.livingcomputers.org/Closure.aspx On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:02 AM Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

That place was funded by Paul Allen right? I would have thought it would have been setup to last many years. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:23 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: What is disturbing and perhaps not surprising that the people at the top have no interest in the museum. For them, shut it down for now allows for the more important stuff to be dealt with first. Big picture it's not important relative to other things like professional sports teams and islands in the Pacific. b

The big problem with this situation is that it?s simply unnecessary: Living Computer Museum + Labs is not independent of Vulcan, and Vulcan can *easily* afford to keep the people who work there on payroll and working from home indefinitely. This is happening entirely because the people holding the pursestrings have no idea how to run a museum, or even what a museum *does*. It?s pretty clear that they think they can just pack things away for a while, then hire a few people to take tickets and put out exhbits when they decide to reopen, without any consideration to the kind of historical preservation work the museum is in the process of doing or even what might need to be done to prepare exhibits for public access, what it means to be ready to obtain, receive, and preserve newly-uncovered historical artifacts, and so on. https://twitter.com/eschaton/status/1265751114953011200 A group of people who actually understand (like Woz and Gates et al) should step in, take it off Vulcan?s hands, and endow it as an independent entity. And people should stop donating their collections to museums and lend them instead. -- Chris

On 5/27/20 9:02 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: Vulcan is reported to have pulled the plug on their entertainment division (Vulcan Arts + Entertainment). Also part of this is the Flying Heritage and Combat Armor Museum and they put out an announcement almost identical to the LCM+L announcement. The Seattle Cinerama theater and Seattle Art Fair are caught up in this as well. I don't know if the MoPOP (formerly the Experience Music Project, the Science Fiction Museum, and Science Fiction & Fantasy Hall of Fame, which occupied the same building) is part of this. alan

On May 27, 2020, at 8:02 PM, Alan Perry <aperry at snowmoose.com> wrote: Well, that really sucks. -- Chris

On May 27, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr <jecel at merlintec.com> wrote: It might be a battle, possibly even a major one, but it would be fundamentally winnable when there?s explicitly no transfer of ownership. That may, of course, be why they told Alan they don?t take loans; they may want to not worry about dealing with people who want loaned pieces returned, or dealing with the risk of loss or damage (e.g. insurance), and so on. -- Chris

Its a challenge. Most Museums refuse to accept loans. It?s a lot of admin. If the original owner dies what happens. Under what terms can it be removed. Value if stolen or damaged? If it is working and it breaks. A lot of hassle and risk. Dave

On 2020-05-28 4:14 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: We must certainly not put a very very very very well endowed museum to any effort in the matter of museuming After all they might need to suddenly evaporate any moment for any reason

Art museums work under a different set of rules and ethics than other museums. -- Will

On May 28, 2020, at 10:31 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: Do tell. -- Chris

On 5/27/20 11:02 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: I once sent them some rather rare documentation (at the suggestion of other collectors). I got back a letter with a nasty tone stating they do not accept unsolicited items. I have no idea what that meant as to the continued existence of the item. It certainly did not come back to me. bill

On 5/28/20 9:18 AM, William Donzelli wrote: Why would I do that? I had something people said was rare. I needed to do something with it. Suggestions were send it to the museum. I have given stuff to other, much smaller museums in the past that were happily accepted. Why would you refuse to accept something given with no strings and even worse send the donor a nasty letter? Result is I will never donate anything again. Who is the loser? bill

On 5/28/20 9:53 AM, William Donzelli wrote: Nothing like asking people to jump thru hoops before you let them do you a favor. :-) bill

You pay for shipping, and I'll take them! -- Will

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:14 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: What museum was that? Bill

The problem is that the public wrecks stuff. Big time. And they steal stuff. Just for the thrill. Even just the stupidest little thing, like a keycap. A long time ago, I volunteered on BB-59 (battleship MASSACHUSETTS), and dealt with the radars. I was warned about people stealing stuff. One night I was in the ET shack (radar technician compartment) - a small room maybe 15 by 5 feet. Normally locked with a USN padlock, I was at the bench with a radar scope, door unlocked so visitors could come in and ask questions. I left the padlock open and hanging from the latch. Yup, some kid stile the lock. So yes, every museum must weigh public interaction against artifact damage, and what is the mission of the museum. CHM is more conservative, LCM more liberal*. I think it is good to have both sides. -- Will * 100 percent not political, but in the more classic sense. If you bring this up politically, I will shit down your throat.

Good fortune, maybe! On another ship I sometime volunteer on (DE-766 SLATER), someone stole a piece of silverware from the officer's ward room (the dining room, basically)., Yes, just a knife or fork or whatever... but gone forever. -- Will

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 05:28:06PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I would almost want to bet money on this if I actually liked betting money. Once the ignorantariat starts pushing the doors, I expect them to sing under their nose to the rhyme of "some Lisa went for 5 bricks so I will pickup a keycap". (here I wrote "A fork up theirs" but then I have promptly deleted it). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **

I?ve been just kinda skimming along in this thread, I?ve been busy; Just wanna make sure I have everything down... 0: If you sent anything to a museum, you?ve been fleeced - you?re an idiot. 1: If you didn?t send anything to a museum, you?re a hoarder - you?re an idiot. 2: If you send things to a museum they will be destroyed, museums are full of idiots. 3: If you send things to a museum they will be taken care of, museums keep out the idiots. 4: Museums are for physical display only and a proper museum will prioritize long-term physical stability at the cost of operational capability. 5: Museums are for physical interaction only and a proper museum will prioritize operational capability at the cost of long-term physical stability. 6: If you start or join an ongoing internet slapfight, you?re an asshole. 7: If you avoid starting or joining an ongoing internet slapfight, you?re a coward. 10: I?m not an idiot, you?re an idiot. 11: No, I?m not an idiot, YOU?RE an idiot! 12: For having read this far, I am the biggest idiot of all. Sound good?

On Fri, 29 May 2020, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: I may be an idiot according to #12, but at least I'm an *entertained* idiot! \o/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

-----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 10:57 AM To: 'Daniel Seagraves'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Living Computer Museum I was thinking pretty much the same thing and I think it just shows how futile some threads are, although I am sure that wherever you stand on the arguments above, everyone will agree that the loss of the LCM is a major blow. I sold a complete Displaywriter system with at least 7 terminals and keyboards, and a 3278 terminal with keyboard to them some years back. I hope those don't wind up in the skip! -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Thank you. From: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> To: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>, "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 1:05:17 PM Subject: RE: Living Computer Museum Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds: Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin. It's a long pause, that's all. Rich Alderson ex-Sr. Systems Engineer/Curator emeritus Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 Cell: (206) 465-2916 Desk: (206) 342-2239 http://www.LivingComputers.org/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 9:00 AM I sold a complete Displaywriter system with at least 7 terminals and keyboards, and a 3278 terminal with keyboard to them some years back. I hope those don't wind up in the skip! -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Fri, 29 May 2020, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: It's not you guys we're worried about. It's those skeezy shitbirds at Vulcan that make us nervous. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Awwww, Rich, now you've gone and taken all the mystery out of it, and the fun of complaining about something over which we have no control! Unfair to Local 12 of the Villains, Thieves, and Scoundrels Union! :D On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 2:25 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

On 5/29/20 2:31 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: Honestly, I'm less concerned about the equipment itself. It will either be on display again at some future LCM incarnation, or sold off in some fashion where interested parties can try to buy it. The loss of the institution is very sad and I'm mourning that loss, as we all are. Right now, however, I'm mostly worried about my friends who work there. They are not only mourning the loss of the place that they've poured themselves into for years, but now are also scrambling for economic security. Even during this pandemic, most of us working in the tech sector enjoy a truly uncommon level of job security. Even in the tech sector though, the hiring process totally fucked everywhere right now and these folks now have to navigate that nightmare. This is what I'm most worried about. --Jason

All this shows me is that in principal people will pick the extreme ends of a topic to fight about but in reality once you get into specifics and details most people are really in the middle and tend to agree on what should be done (in most cases). You can argue to the point of violence if a glass of water is half empty or half full but everybody will agree there is water in the cup (and then argue over the definition of a cup). People are funny. -----Original Message----- From: Rob Jarratt via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 11:57 AM To: 'Daniel Seagraves' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Living Computer Museum I was thinking pretty much the same thing and I think it just shows how futile some threads are, although I am sure that wherever you stand on the arguments above, everyone will agree that the loss of the LCM is a major blow. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 5/29/2020 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I tend to break them in the middle. Ben.

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 4:36 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: So depressingly true. I run the little museum in Google's NYC office. I've had a bunch of working 80's-90's era machines and workstations on display, but they require constant repair because people are too lazy or entitled to treat them with care - people erase boot disks - they bring in children as visitors and let them pound the keys until they break - the open cabinets and pull out trays marked "DO NOT OPEN. IT WILL GET STUCK". Do you know what? Once a week I have to go and close chassis that is stuck open. - They drop and crack any artifacts in a glass display case (I now encase boards in plexiglass frames) and then stick them out of sight - despite our blameless "if you see something, report it" policy. - They drop broken old hardware off - anonymously. - They want me to take the stuff from their basement and do the work to make it displayable - while promising that people won't break it. When colleagues ask about setting up displays in their offices I tell them not to. It is 10x more work than they think, and frustrating to receive rare and interesting items that you know will be ruined. A long time ago, I volunteered on BB-59 (battleship MASSACHUSETTS), It might not have been a kid. Adults are often class one miscreants. There was a great bit in a "Most Interesting Man in the World" commercial "When he goes to museums, he is allowed to touch the art."

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 2:20 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: When we restored the PDP-1 at CHM, we *really* wanted to make sure that the public could interact with it, though in a limited fashion. Ken Sumrall and I built quick-and-dirty Spacewar control boxes out of particle board and arcade switches, which were intended for restoration team use, and we originally thought that we would later build some "more authentic" control boxes. (The control boxes used in Boston had disappeared, and in any case we don't know whether they were "original".) However, Steve Russell (author of the Spacewar game) pointed out that our hastily knocked together control boxes actually were "authentic" in the sense that the originals were also hastily knocked together out of whatever was at hand. It would certainly be nice if there was a practical way to allow more hands-on use of the PDP-1, but I can't think of any way of doing that which CHM would be likely to approve, and I don't disagree with them. It's somewhat difficult to keep the machine in good working order even when only a few skilled people operate it. Eric