5 Jul
2005
5 Jul
'05
6:12 p.m.
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at
siconic.com>
How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way
more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a
handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical
nuts.
Hi Sellam
You have to remember, that machine was in the lease
days of IBM. They took back their old machines and
flattened them in a wreaking yard down at Santa Maria.
I used to look for things like blocks of core memory
there.
Dwight
5 Jul
5 Jul
6:19 p.m.
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote:
This is my point. Pat doesn't think an IBM 360 would sell for, say, as
much as $50K. I agree with him that it may not attract the same sort of
frenzy that a PDP-1 would (it's a different dynamic with IBM old iron
collectors) but considering that they are probably more rare than PDP-1's
(which is ironic considering the IBM 360 sold in the thousands(?) and the
PDP-1 had a run of 50) if one did show up, and it was as complete the
recent PDP-8 sale, then there would be a bidding frenzy like you wouldn't
believe.
I suspected the PDP-8 could fetch as high as $25K, and I still think this
is a valid number. Bill Maddox actually got one hell of a deal. A PDP-1
equipped in an equivalent manner would surely fetch at least $25K, and so
would the equivalent IBM 360 system (maybe a decked out 360/20).
I'd be interested in knowing of any complete IBM 360's out in the wild
(i.e. not already in museums). From what I know, there aren't many, if
any (at least as yet undiscovered) so I'd like to be corrected if I'm
ignorant.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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From:
"Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way
more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a
handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical
nuts.
Hi Sellam
You have to remember, that machine was in the lease
days of IBM. They took back their old machines and
flattened them in a wreaking yard down at Santa Maria.
I used to look for things like blocks of core memory
there. 
10:17 p.m.
This is my point. Pat doesn't think an IBM 360
would sell for, say, as
much as $50K.
I do not think an S/360 processor would hit $10K, personally.
On Ebay a few years back, an IBM 650 only hit $5K. IBM stuff just doesn't
have the prestige.
I agree with him that it may not attract the same
sort of
frenzy that a PDP-1 would (it's a different dynamic with IBM old iron
collectors) but considering that they are probably more rare than PDP-1's
You must know of many PDP-1s that we do not, because I can think of
roughly ten S/360 processors still around. All but one are in museums.
And of course, S/370s are rarer that S/360s for some dumb reason. And
S/370 clones are rarer than Blue S/370s.
(which is ironic considering the IBM 360 sold in the
thousands(?) and the
PDP-1 had a run of 50)
I do not have the figures handy, but I think about 2400 S/360 processors
were made. Over 1000 were model 30s.
if one did show up, and it was as complete the
recent PDP-8 sale, then there would be a bidding frenzy like you wouldn't
believe.
I doubt a complete S/360 system would pop up (but who knows!). By their
nature, pieces were upgraded over time, resulting in systems with parts
spanning 20 years of production. DASDs (disks) were some of the first
things to go. I would venture to say that old IBM disks (1311/2311, 2316,
3330 and the like) are probably rarer than the processors.
Also, a complete S/360 installation, even a small one, would still be
quite large compared to a PDP-1. An S/360 mod 20 is the smallest, but it
isn't a real machine anyway.
I suspected the PDP-8 could fetch as high as $25K, and
I still think this
is a valid number. Bill Maddox actually got one hell of a deal. A PDP-1
equipped in an equivalent manner would surely fetch at least $25K, and so
would the equivalent IBM 360 system (maybe a decked out 360/20).
I do not think 20s were common, because they were bastards replaced by
S/3s very shortly after introduced (there are still S/3s out there - one
still in production). The 30s were the common model.
20s also do not have very nice panels - nearly nothing, actually. Odd
machine.
I'd be interested in knowing of any complete IBM
360's out in the wild
(i.e. not already in museums).
The only one I know of is the ex-Stumf model 22 processor, and I do not
know where that went.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
10:40 p.m.
--- William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> wrote:
On Ebay a few years back, an IBM 650 only hit $5K.
IBM stuff just doesn't
have the prestige.
Wow! Was it complete? Did anyone save any pictures
from the listing?
You must know of many PDP-1s that we do not, because
I can think of
roughly ten S/360 processors still around. All but
one are in museums.
To the best of my knowledge, there are only three
PDP-1s still in existence, all of which are in the
collection of the Computer History Museum, although
one is on loan elsewhere. That would indeed make the
PDP-1 more rare, though it is amazing that so few
S/360s survive. There are probably bits and pieces of
them still rotting in scrapyards, however. Apparently,
a bunch of them running the FAA ATC system were
retired in recent memory -- as I recall, William
Donzelli knows more about this and may have something
to add.
--Bill
6 Jul
6 Jul
9:45 a.m.
Wow! Was it complete? Did anyone save any pictures
from the listing?
No, but the machine is in a well known collection (he may lurk here).
There are probably bits and pieces of
them still rotting in scrapyards, however. Apparently,
a bunch of them running the FAA ATC system were
retired in recent memory
Quite a few years ago, now. They are long gone.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
5 Jul
5 Jul
11:34 p.m.
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote:
Thanks for the info. I think you're more right than me about the 360s.
For some reason, people tend to pay more attention to DEC stuff. And I
think the size issue, as you explained, is probably the key reason why.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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On Ebay a few years back, an IBM 650 only hit $5K. IBM
stuff just doesn't
have the prestige.
An IBM 650 showed up on eBay? And it sold for only $5K??
Wow.
You must know of many PDP-1s that we do not, because I
can think of
roughly ten S/360 processors still around. All but one are in museums.
The Computer History Museum has three PDP-1's (including the original
prototype). I thought there was one at a university in the Netherlands,
but I can't find a reference currently.
I'd be
interested in knowing of any complete IBM 360's out in the wild
(i.e. not already in museums).
The only one I know of is the ex-Stumf model 22 processor, and I do not
know where that went.
6 Jul
6 Jul
12:33 a.m.
--- Vintage Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com> wrote:
For some reason, people tend to pay more attention
to DEC stuff. And I
think the size issue, as you explained, is probably
the key reason why.
Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big
machines and IBM made some small ones, and the DEC
boxes still seem to get more attention from
collectors. I think that the relative availability of
DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes
the DEC machines more practical if one's interest is
in restoring and running them. That would explain
the 8's and 11's anyway. It's frustrating how little
of the older non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be
available.
--Bill
12:42 a.m.
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote:
Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big
machines and IBM
made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more attention
from collectors. I think that the relative availability of DEC hardware,
software, and documentation simply makes the DEC machines more practical
if one's interest is in restoring and running them. That would explain
the 8's and 11's anyway. It's frustrating how little of the older
non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be available.
Well, actually, the reason is clear.
In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about
their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass walls where one
could only drool over them, and only let priveleged people touch them. So
in general, most IBM computers (i.e. not the 1620 or 1130) were
off-limits, and thus there is relatively little hacking experience for
people today who are older and richer and want to reiminisce to draw upon
and drive interest in IBM machines.
DEC, on the other hand, fully understood the hacking instinct. They made
machines that were meant to be touched, programmed, and hacked. From
their very first models they made them open and friendly and approachable
and PERSONAL. Most people today who went to college from the early 1960s
onwards probably had access to DEC machines and learned to love them as
they touched and prodded them and flipped their switches and hacked on
them all night. So that experience remains with them and today that is
what they seek.
So that's why a DEC PDP-1 will always have much more appeal than a gray
thing that IBM created.
IBM wanted to keep computers away from the masses, to keep them in the
hands of the "priveleged", and their reward was to be able to continue to
dominate the market to this day. DEC wanted computers to be free and for
people to use them. Their reward was to be sucked up, torn apart and
destroyed by a lesser company whose origins was in making clones of IBM's
computers.
How ironic.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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12:56 a.m.
On 7/6/05, Vintage Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com> wrote:
<snip>
IBM wanted to keep computers away from the masses, to
keep them in the
hands of the "priveleged", and their reward was to be able to continue to
dominate the market to this day. DEC wanted computers to be free and for
people to use them. Their reward was to be sucked up, torn apart and
destroyed by a lesser company whose origins was in making clones of IBM's
computers.
*Damn* you're making me all teary eyed.. *sob*
/wai-sun
6:26 a.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about
their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass walls where one
could only drool over them, and only let priveleged people touch them. So
My experience is the S/360 & 370's machines ran 24x7 and there was
little time left over for hacking. But if you got to be friends with
the operators and read all the manuals and what source code you could
find, you could do some pretty fun hacks.
I used to submit jobs into the dos/vs job queue and view source code on
cics terminals long before I saw commercial support for the such things.
I did it by hacking during nights and weekends when the operator would
let me try a few experimental things (and didn't mind if it brought the
whole thing down).
The DEC machines (in my experience) were often not in a 24x7 enviroment
and often in educational settings where bringing down the system was not
such a huge deal.
Obviously there are exceptions to both sides of this. it's just my
experience...
(I remember seeing a lonely pdp-8 with a DF-32 sitting in the corner of
a CAD lab and someone said - "yea, have at it - see if you can get it to
boot". no one ever said that about a S/360 :-)
-brad
9:23 a.m.
>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker
<brad at heeltoe.com> writes:
Brad> Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
> In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't
want anyone to learn
> about their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass
> walls where one could only drool over them, and only let
> priveleged people touch them. So
Brad> My experience is the S/360 & 370's machines ran 24x7 and there
Brad> was little time left over for hacking. But if you got to be
Brad> friends with the operators and read all the manuals and what
Brad> source code you could find, you could do some pretty fun hacks.
I've had some operator time in college on a 360 model 44 (running
OS/PCP, which was unusual since most 44s ran an OS specific to that
machine -- it didn't normally have a full 360 instruction set). It
belonged to a nearby grad school, and didn't run anywhere near 24x7.
So powering it on and off was part of the experience.
I had some fun hacks on it. The console wasn't considered a normal
I/O device (it had no name so programs couldn't reference it in the
usual way). But if you constructed a few of the relevant data
structures "by hand" you could read/write it just fine. So I messed
up all the UI conventions by doing exactly that.
The other hack was a switch into supervisor mode from my application
(the WATFOR compiler, actually...) to install a patch into the kernel
to capture an interrupt (some operator panel button). It was really
easy, quite obvious from reading the manuals. I found out later in
grad school that the same security bug was still around in OS/MVS
21.x. Didn't use it there (verified it existed but resisted the
temptation to exploit it).
Lastly, there was the 360 program for reading and printing PDP-11 DOS
formatted tapes... including search by name, something OS/360 could
not do even for native tapes... I wish I still had that program, but
no such luck, not even a listing.
So yes, you could hack those machines if they weren't too large and
you were in the right spot. But I'll agree that I'd grab a PDP-11 way
before I'd be tempted by a 360.
paul
3 p.m.
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Well, actually, the reason is clear.
In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about
their computers.
I wouldn't call it stupid, the goal was profit, but I get your
drift :-) I'll let the IBM fans rip you up. Bandaids are in the
cabinet.
A similar but much more richly-deserved fate awaits the miserable
SOB f*cks like Disney et al; in 5, 10, 20, 50 years much of their
content will be utterly and completely inaccessible to the world
due to their proprietary DRM lockdown mentality.
The increasing use of little security engines running inside your
peecee (that you have no legal access to) that have dynamic
relationships with the software-distribution website do the same
thing.
I am definitely an open-source fan, but not fanatic, I do think
there's plenty of space for proprietary works and DRM in general,
but there still is some justice in the fact that the more-open
stuff will be more likely to be historically accessible.
9:10 p.m.
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:42:28 -0700 (PDT)
Vintage Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com> wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote:
It could be reasonably argued that DEC just couldn't make it into the
'First Tier' market so had to make do with the hacker/low-end market.
IBM pretty much OWNED the first tier in that era.
Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some
big machines and IBM
made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more
attention from collectors. I think that the relative availability of
DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes the DEC
machines more practical if one's interest is in restoring and
running them. That would explain the 8's and 11's anyway. It's
frustrating how little of the older non-DEC minicomputer material
seems to be available.
Well, actually, the reason is clear.
In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about
their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass walls where
one could only drool over them, and only let priveleged people touch
them. So in general, most IBM computers (i.e. not the 1620 or 1130)
were off-limits, and thus there is relatively little hacking
experience for people today who are older and richer and want to
reiminisce to draw upon and drive interest in IBM machines.
DEC, on the other hand, fully understood the hacking instinct. They made
machines that were meant to be touched, programmed, and hacked. From
their very first models they made them open and friendly and
approachable and PERSONAL. Most people today who went to college from
the early 1960s onwards probably had access to DEC machines and
learned to love them as they touched and prodded them and flipped
their switches and hacked on them all night. So that experience
remains with them and today that is what they seek.
So that's why a DEC PDP-1 will always have much more appeal than a
gray thing that IBM created.
IBM wanted to keep computers away from the masses, to keep them in the
hands of the "priveleged", and their reward was to be able to continue
to dominate the market to this day. DEC wanted computers to be free
and for people to use them. Their reward was to be sucked up, torn
apart and destroyed by a lesser company whose origins was in making
clones of IBM's computers.
I'd hardly say that said 'clones' that you refer to come from the same
heritage as the IBM mainframes you mentioned in the first part of your
posting. The IBM Clone market was open, far more open, in fact, than
any other computer architecutre in history. Open, in fact, to the point
where it has been completely comodified and collectors and enthusiasts
'can't get their arms around it' and tend to scorn the clone machines.
Believe me, a day will probably come when people who are in their
twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard Bell
clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just like it.
And most of them will have been melted down.
How ironic.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival-------------------------------------------------------------
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7 Jul
7 Jul
midnight
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote:
Believe me, a day will probably come when people who
are in their
twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard Bell
clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just like it.
And most of them will have been melted down.
I've got each in my collection ;)
I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or
386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The
trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need
for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a
nice representative system right around now.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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12:56 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, July
07, 2005 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote:
Festival
Believe me, a day will probably come when people
who are in their
twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard Bell
clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just like it.
And most of them will have been melted down.
I've got each in my collection ;)
I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or
386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The
trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need
for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a
nice representative system right around now.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage
mputers ]
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http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Leading Edge and Packard Bells always sucked (my first PC was a new 286
Packard Bell). I did always want a 386 Gateway desktop case, those looked
nice. The high end Northgates and Everex machines looked nice (could be 486
era).
1:07 a.m.
So, what from today will be collectible in 2015 or 2020?
I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet appliances,
smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't think of much on the
server side... perhaps the last models from companies that died or were
acquired!
I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or
386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The
trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need
for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a
nice representative system right around now.
--
Sellam Ismail
8:43 a.m.
I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac,
Internet appliances,
smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't think of much on the
server side... perhaps the last models from companies that died or were
acquired!
I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are now. There are some
weird things they have made over the years that people seek.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
8:49 a.m.
New subject: Wanted : IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80
I am looking for an IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80
Has to be cheap and preferably in the Netherlands.
Anybody got a working one that they dont want anymore ?
Stefan.
12 Jul
12 Jul
2:45 p.m.
New subject: Wanted : IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80
On 7/7/05, birs23 at zeelandnet.nl <birs23 at zeelandnet.nl> wrote:
I am looking for an IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80
Has to be cheap and preferably in the Netherlands.
Anybody got a working one that they dont want anymore ?
I have a fairly tricked-out top-of-the range '80: 25MHz 386DX + copro
+ L2 cache, 16MB RAM, dual SCSI cards, 300 + 1GB disks, Ethernet. Runs
PC DOS 7, WinNT Server 3.51 & OS/2 Warp Server 4 (but I can't find NIC
drivers for OS/2 for my Novell card).
I don't /really/ want to sell it but I might be persuaded for a
ridiculously-high offer. :-) (Ridiculously high <> very much, for a
386 in 2005!)
I'm in London. Shipping will cost a bit - it weighs as much as a small
car. I think the PS/2 cases were an iron/neutronium alloy. ;-)
--
Liam Proven
Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com
AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com
8:34 p.m.
New subject: Wanted : IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80
i have several 20's 30's 50's 70's and 80's. (i think a 55 might be
in the pile too)
unknown disk drive status, some were working some were
not, and some are untested.
Also have ibm industrial version of the 80 numbered
with a 7xxx number. forgot what that was.
bad news, they are in california.
all stored locally here in LA area
Jim
Liam Proven wrote:
7 Jul
7 Jul
10:06 a.m.
>>>> "William" == William
Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> writes:
> I suppose anything that's not a beige box:
iMac, Internet
> appliances, smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't
> think of much on the server side... perhaps the last models from
> companies that died or were acquired!
William> I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are
William> now. There are some weird things they have made over the
William> years that people seek.
One fun thing you could do with the right Sun guts is building a
replica of the EFF DES cracker.
paul
12:02 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote:
So, what from today will be collectible in 2015 or
2020?
I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet appliances,
smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't think of much on the
server side... perhaps the last models from companies that died or were
acquired!
You forgot:
HANDHELDS!!!
My, my, for the guy who wrote up the best history on PDAs ever, I'm
surprised you left this out ;)
Also: digital cameras, all the stupid doodads that long defunct internet
bubble companies came up with in the late 1990s, network computers, MP3
players, etc.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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10:51 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:56:08 -0400
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
Leading Edge and Packard Bells always sucked (my first PC was a new
286 Packard Bell). I did always want a 386 Gateway desktop case, those
looked nice. The high end Northgates and Everex machines looked nice
(could be 486 era).
My first 'PC' used an early non-turbo XT-clone motherboard I bought at a
swapmeet. At the same swapmeet I bought an original 63.5 watt IBM
supply, a used 'Leading Edge, model D' case (just the sheet metal bits),
and an IBM MDA card. I already had an IBM keyboard that had no case on
it. When I got the whole mess home, the only way to fit the XT
motherboard in the case was to cut away all but one of the 'card edge
slots' in the LE case as it used different card connector spacing. The
only way to fit the power supply was to strip it entirely out of it's
original IBM case and mount the circuit board on standoffs in the
Leading Edge case. So that's what I did. Add two 360K floppy drives
and an original IBM MDA card and you've got my first PC. What a
conglomeration that system was. It lasted for years and years. It
makes the 'case modding' that enthusiasts dabble in today look like
childsplay.
8 Jul
8 Jul
6:38 p.m.
My first 'PC' used an early non-turbo XT-clone
motherboard I bought at a
swapmeet. At the same swapmeet I bought an original 63.5 watt IBM
supply, a used 'Leading Edge, model D' case (just the sheet metal bits),
and an IBM MDA card. I already had an IBM keyboard that had no case on
it. When I got the whole mess home, the only way to fit the XT
motherboard in the case was to cut away all but one of the 'card edge
slots' in the LE case as it used different card connector spacing. The
only way to fit the power supply was to strip it entirely out of it's
original IBM case and mount the circuit board on standoffs in the
Leading Edge case. So that's what I did. Add two 360K floppy drives
and an original IBM MDA card and you've got my first PC. What a
conglomeration that system was. It lasted for years and years. It
makes the 'case modding' that enthusiasts dabble in today look like
childsplay.
If we're having those sort of tales...
This machine started out as an IBM PC/AT (8MHz version. It's got a 486
kludgeboard in place of the 286, but said kludgeboard was designed to fit
the PLCC type of socket, not the PGA one. You were supposed to plug a
PLCC socket into the PGA one if neccessary, but doing that made the board
sit so high up that it blocked one of the expansion slots. Out with a
soldering iron, off with the PGA socket, and in with a PLCC one.
Then there was the drive table. I wanted to use a large hard disk than
IBM had an entry for. I found out that the last 8K of the ROMs contained
the various data tables. Programmed a couple of 2764s with the new
tables, pluged them into the 'spare' ROM sockets on the motherboard,
added a couple od TTL chips and kludgewires to do the address decoding.
Clone MDA card. It got the timing of the wait signal wrong. More
kludgewires and an unused gate in one of the chips fixed that.
Early IDE card. TTL, a couple of PALs, and a floppy controller chip (I
forget which one). A bit of stripboard as a daughterboard, fitted under a
couple of the ICs, and carrying a couple more TTL chips to stretch the
read and write signals to the IDE port, to drive the 'in use' LED. Only
RC delays I'm afraid, but good enough for this. Fortunately this card can
go in the slot next to the PSU, so the overhanging daughterboard doesn't
waste a slot.
One of the RAM cards started out life as an IBM 128K card. I
reverse-engineered the bits IBM didn't document and worked out that it
could take 2 rows of 256K chips (1M byte), not just 1 row of 64K chips
(128K). So that's what I did.
And the real time clock battery. I am not paying ridiculous amounts for
the right lithium battery. In went a battery holder, a series diode, and
4 AA cells. They last about 3 years, and they're cheap to replace. Easy
to get too.
There must be more I've forgotten about....
-tony
7 Jul
7 Jul
10:29 a.m.
On 7/6/05, Vintage Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com> wrote:
I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but
I've hardly seen any 286 or
386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The
trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need
for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a
nice representative system right around now.
I was just using my Compaq SLT/286 the other night...
-ethan
10:45 p.m.
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:00:29 -0700 (PDT)
Vintage Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com> wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote:
An important thing to keep a 'representative example' of in a 286
machine is one of the early 'full AT' motherboards from before the
'chipsets' hit the market. An original IBM-AT motherboard, or one of
the first cloners, will have the same Intel 8xxx series LSI chips as the
PC-XT machines and tons of TTL gates, and no 'custom' chips at all
(aside from PALs). Also worth getting ahold of are the early 'full-AT'
386 motherboards which have aprox the same design. Better yet if you
can get one that has a matching proprietary 'RAM Expansion' card.
Those early AT systems are eminently repairable, and 'understandable' on
the chip-level, since there aren't the 'mystery' chipset conglomeration
parts that came into fashion when the 'Baby-AT' boards hit the market.
Believe me, a day will probably come when people
who are in their
twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard
Bell clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just
like it. And most of them will have been melted down.
I've got each in my collection ;)
I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286
or 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months.
The trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a
need for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to
find a nice representative system right around now.
8 Jul
8 Jul
6:27 p.m.
Those early AT systems are eminently repairable, and
'understandable' on
the chip-level, since there aren't the 'mystery' chipset conglomeration
Now why do you think I am using one (admittedly much-hacked, kludgewires
and extra chips on some of the boards) right now....
-tony
6 Jul
6 Jul
8:44 a.m.
At 11:33 PM 7/5/2005, William Maddox wrote:
I think that the relative availability of
DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes
the DEC machines more practical if one's interest is
in restoring and running them.
I think it's because more people were exposed to DEC equipment
early in their educational life - high school and college -
and therefore imprinted affectionate memories. Baby duck syndrome.
You might as well ask which album is their favorite.
- John
2:52 p.m.
New subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote:
It's frustrating how little
of the older non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be
available.
I always figured it was you conspiratorial DEC people, buying up
other-make stuff and destroying it to make a one-DEC-world.
Most of the comments in this thread seem correct; the leasing
arrangements; the stuff went back to the factory or was upgraded
in-place.
A lot of DEC stuff went to universities, where there was a lot of
hands-on in the guts (how many 360's were moded by students and
faculty?), departmental hand-me-down leading to surplus.
Lots of students had direct access to DEC software and hardware;
that breeds familiarity (baby-duck syndrome), actual knowledge,
archived (ahem) softare and docs, and clearly drives nostalgia.
unix. Even when that sucked, you could see source, docs, and
improve it. The box was open.
IBM was far more straightforwardly business/industrial oriented,
and throughout my computer work history (1975 - 1990's) I never
heard of ANYONE EVER having the ability to hack non-PC IBM
hardware and sofware at the OS level.
OS/360. TSO. The box was terribly, terribly closed.
Many manu's like DG appealed to industrial purchasers, who having
less connection to computer culture than university stoonts,
upgraded, scrapped, returned, etc. It's legally/financially
problematic for corporations to let employees have old gear (it
can be done, but most don't make the effort or fear IP leakage).
DEC had large industrial entre, obviously, more or less the same
as other manu's (at whatever scale) but I think university culture
overrode it as far as retro goes.
Most of DECs products are in the SSI-up integration era; you can
actually make them work. Same true for DG et al, but sheer numbers
means that when 90% of (DEC, DG, etc) product got crushed, that
10% was 100,000 units, not 1000 units.
The LGP-30, as an example of a 2nd-gen machine that is well-known
and loved, is (today) a balky, large, delicate and hard to manage
system of hot, fragile, wildly organic and analog components, far
out side most technologists experience (eg. vacuum tubes and
practice involving first-principle physics). It's closer to a
damned radio than it is to an SN7400. And only some 500 were made,
and at 800+ lbs they weren't exactly forgotten in closets, like
stacks of DEC boards can be.
[Lest anyone think I hate IBM -- I don't. I really love the 360
architecture, and would have loved writing assembly for it. It's
just that their business practices weren't conducive to
non-business cultural uses of their systems, until the peecee.]
3:19 p.m.
New subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8
On 7/6/05, Tom Jennings <tomj at wps.com> wrote:
A lot of DEC stuff went to universities, where there
was a lot of
hands-on in the guts (how many 360's were moded by students and
faculty?), departmental hand-me-down leading to surplus.
I myself have picked up a DECmate I, a PDP-8/a, a PDP-11/34, and
several PDP-11/03s from Ohio State surplus over the years. VAXen and
other PDP-11s I've gotten from scrap from local and not-so-local
businesses.
My experience of what's on the street is that I see 20+ DEC machines
for each IBM machine, and even then, it's always the smaller IBM boxes
like S/34s, S/36s and AS/400s.
I'm sure lease vs purchase, aided by a once-robust DEC third-party
reseller community have a lot to do with the state of things.
-ethan
8:09 p.m.
New subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8
A lot of DEC stuff went to universities, where there
was a lot of
hands-on in the guts (how many 360's were moded by students and
faculty?), departmental hand-me-down leading to surplus.
IBM stuff tends to be VERY hard to mod because of the design philosophy -
everything is done very properly and checked. Attempting a mod will result
in modifying the circuit that checks the modded circuit, then the circuit
that checks the checker...
IBM docs are amongst the best out there, once the system is
understood. Usually these docs were pretty much available in the computer
room, so a bribe (beer works at a university) would get the Big Blue
Binders.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
9:14 p.m.
New subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT)
Tom Jennings <tomj at wps.com> wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote:
[Lest anyone think I hate IBM -- I don't. I really love the 360
architecture, and would have loved writing assembly for it. It's
just that their business practices weren't conducive to
non-business cultural uses of their systems, until the peecee.]
They were open enough, at least, that people like my dad were able to
'check out' and bring home an IBM 5100 on the weekend for us to fool
with. I remember loading and playing Star Trek on the 5100 at home.
7:13 p.m.
Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big
machines and IBM made some small ones, and the DEC
boxes still seem to get more attention from
collectors. I think that the relative availability of
DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes
I suspect is is partly the doucmentation. DEC machines of this period
tended to come with schematics rather than board-swapper guides (which is
what the IBM service manuals I've seen were). There are thus plenty of
PDP8, PDP11, etc shematics around.
And IBM used custom parts a lot earlier than DEC. I've not seen a 370,
but I'd be suprised if it was all off-the-shelf components. Unibus PDP11s
PDP8s, etc tended to be.
-tony
9:17 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:13:47 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were
usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to
figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and
resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.)
IBM was an empire unto itself.
Size is
probably a big issue, but DEC made some big
machines and IBM made some small ones, and the DEC
boxes still seem to get more attention from
collectors. I think that the relative availability of
DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes
I suspect is is partly the doucmentation. DEC machines of this period
tended to come with schematics rather than board-swapper guides (which
is what the IBM service manuals I've seen were). There are thus plenty
of PDP8, PDP11, etc shematics around.
And IBM used custom parts a lot earlier than DEC. I've not seen a 370,
but I'd be suprised if it was all off-the-shelf components. Unibus
PDP11s PDP8s, etc tended to be.
10:24 p.m.
Even where IBM cards of that era used
'commodity' components, they were
usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to
figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and
resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.)
Unless you get the cross reference...
For the pre-1978 (or so) machines, you can pretty much debug down to the
chip level. With the right Blue Binders, pretty much every last part is
detailed to a silly extent. WAY more detailed than DEC docs.
A number of the logic families are also really quite close to
off the shelf items, just in weird packages.
Of course, some would say the reason why IBM stuff is cool is BECAUSE it
is so alien!
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
7 Jul
7 Jul
12:02 a.m.
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote:
Even where IBM cards of that era used
'commodity' components, they were
usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to
figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and
resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.)
DEC used standard components.
Hmm, another example of the more open nature of DEC vs. IBM? ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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9:56 a.m.
>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage
Computer Festival <vcf at siconic.com> writes:
Vintage> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote:
> Even where IBM cards of that era used
'commodity' components, they
> were usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere
> mortal to figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor
> networks and resistors/capacitors (except those few that have
> color-code bands.)
Vintage> DEC used standard components.
Sort of -- if you ignore the bus transceivers. And of course the
ASICs starting around 1980 or so.
paul
10:38 a.m.
On 7/7/05, Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> wrote:
Vintage> DEC used standard components.
Sort of -- if you ignore the bus transceivers.
Some were proprietary DEC (DC003, DC004, DC005, DC013...), but some
were somewhat standard (Nat'l Semi 8640, 8641...) Unfortunately, even
some of the "standard" chips that they used (7438, 7401?) were graded
for leakage current (not that someone couldn't do it now, but it adds
to the complexity and expense).
Of course, one _can_ take risks and violate the letter of the bus
specs and try some other sort of part, and it will probably work for a
small system, but it also has a chance of not working in the larger
multi-backplane kinds of systems.
-ethan
3:23 p.m.
Even where IBM cards of that era used
'commodity' components, they were
usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to
figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and
resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.)
Yes, but it's easy to measure the value of a resistor or capacitor, and
even resistor networks can generally be figured out. HP used custom
house-coded resistor netowrks in some of their products and it didn't
stop me...
In the case of semiconductors, both HP and DEC (only transistors and
diodes AFAIK) used house-coded parts. But DEC printed the equivalents in
the printset (which is generally not too hard to find) and HP equivalents
lists have got out....
-tony
10:55 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:23:16 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Figuring out alien unmarked and complex resistor networks is a nerds
treat. It's a mathematical puzzle in physical form.
Even where IBM
cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they
were usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere
mortal to figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor
networks and resistors/capacitors (except those few that have
color-code bands.)
Yes, but it's easy to measure the value of a resistor or capacitor,
and even resistor networks can generally be figured out. HP used
custom house-coded resistor netowrks in some of their products and it
didn't stop me...
8 Jul
8 Jul
6:45 p.m.
Figuring out alien unmarked and complex resistor
networks is a nerds
treat. It's a mathematical puzzle in physical form.
I am not sure exactly what a 'nerd' is, but on the grounds that I enjoyed
working this out, I guess it makes me one.
[If you assume that all resistors are pin-to-pin, with no internal
junctions, which seems to he good for the HP DIP networks, then you can
deduce the resistors and connections by :
1) Measuring the resistance from each pin to all the other pins shorted
togetner
2) Shorting all but 2 of the pins together (and call that 'ground'), then
apply a known voltage to one of the leftover pins and measure the votlage
on the other odd pin. Calculate the voltage division ratio.
The first gives you the effective resistance of all the resistors to a
given pin connected in parallel. The second gives you the ratio of one of
the resistors to all the others in parallel. From that you can calculate
that resistor.)
-tony
9:36 p.m.
[If you assume that all resistors are pin-to-pin, with
no internal
junctions, which seems to he good for the HP DIP networks, then you
can deduce the resistors and connections by : [...]]
I haven't thought about it enough to be sure, but I have a feeling that
any resistor network is equivalent to some such pin-to-pin network.
Anybody know enough theory to confirm this, or explain why it's false?
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
7 Jul
7 Jul
9:49 a.m.
>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell <ard
at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some
big machines and
> IBM made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more
> attention from collectors. I think that the relative availability
> of DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes
Tony> I suspect is is partly the doucmentation. DEC machines of this
Tony> period tended to come with schematics rather than board-swapper
Tony> guides (which is what the IBM service manuals I've seen
Tony> were). There are thus plenty of PDP8, PDP11, etc shematics
Tony> around.
Tony> And IBM used custom parts a lot earlier than DEC. I've not seen
Tony> a 370, but I'd be suprised if it was all off-the-shelf
Tony> components. Unibus PDP11s PDP8s, etc tended to be.
Judging by the mainframes section of the IBM history pages
(http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/index.html) custom components
arrived with the 360. That may also when schematics stopped
appearing, which makes sense. On the other hand, I know we had
schematics for our college 1620. Very hard to read schematics since
they were printed on a line printer (an early version of "ASCII
graphics"), but they were there nevertheless.
paul
10:04 a.m.
New subject: Xerox 6085's
I recently acquired a pair of 6085's, 1 keyboard/mouse. I have spoken
with the guys over at Digibarn and they've been very helpful with
info. The systems don't have monitors so getting them tested, and
running again is at a standstill.
I am looking for 1 or more monitors, any manuals and/or documents on the
6085's, Mesa and Viewpoint. If anyone has any spare boards,
keyboards, basically anything that they may be interested in
selling/trading, please let me know. I'm also still looking for a
Star8010 as well.
Thanks,
Curt
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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3:49 p.m.
New subject: Xerox 6085's
I recently acquired a pair of 6085's, 1 keyboard/mouse. I have spoken
with the guys over at Digibarn and they've been very helpful with
info. The systems don't have monitors so getting them tested, and
running again is at a standstill.
I am looking for 1 or more monitors, any manuals and/or documents on the
6085's, Mesa and Viewpoint. If anyone has any spare boards,
keyboards, basically anything that they may be interested in
selling/trading, please let me know. I'm also still looking for a
Star8010 as well.
I won't have time to work on mine for quite a bit, but just a heads-up to
say that I have a Daybreak with monitor but no keyboard or mouse. I
figured out the keyboard protocol by borrowing a keyboard and attacking
it with logic analyser, etc, and I have some schematics for the boards.
_If_ I ever get time, I'll take a look at the monitor and see what I can
work out...
-tony
11:43 a.m.
Judging by the mainframes section of the IBM history
pages
(http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/index.html) custom components
arrived with the 360. That may also when schematics stopped
appearing, which makes sense.
For the mainframes, I am not sure when chip level schematics stopped
appearing. They were available in the late 1970s, with the 3031 (a TRUELY
huge stack of paperwork). S/360s and S/370s had very full maintenance
sets, as did S/3s, and pretty much all of the tapes, disks, punches,
readers, control units, and so forth. So, no, schematics definitely did
not stop appearing at the advent of the S/360. I suspect they went away
with the 308x line (which makes sense).
I do not think S/1s had full chip level schematics, as it was a board
swapper family, but the internals were very open. That was the point of
the family - finally IBM agreed (and encouraged) 3rd party support. They
actually managed to get some, as well (CDC under the Cambex name, for
example) before the line died.
The smaller machines (S/36 and such) were board swappers, I think. I have
never seen full maintenance docs on them.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
8:41 p.m.
New subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
Several people have asked if photos of some of my HP's were on-line.
A handfull of new photos can be seen at:
http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/HP_photos.html
8 Jul
8 Jul
1:08 a.m.
New subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
Bob, I'll let this be a source of inspiration for my own projects, to
show what you can do when you put your time to get something done.
Thanks not only for the great pics, but apparently having an amazing
computer for display. Thanks again.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bob Shannon" <bshannon at tiac.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:41:28 -0400
Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
Several people have asked if photos of some of my
HP's were on-line.
A handfull of new photos can be seen at:
http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/HP_photos.html
7:45 a.m.
New subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 22:08 -0700, plato computer wrote:
Bob, I'll let this be a source of inspiration for
my own projects, to
show what you can do when you put your time to get something done.
Thanks not only for the great pics, but apparently having an amazing
computer for display. Thanks again.
I love photo 4 with the flare around the panel lamps!
Lifting that 2116 into the top of that cabinet must have been a
nightmare; those things weigh a *lot*.
One day we might be able to get our HP stuff sorted like this! (we've
got a nice HP polar display that's crying out to have something
interesting done with it)
cheers
Jules
8 a.m.
New subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
we've got a nice HP polar display that's
crying out to have something
interesting done with it
Can it be used in "pure" X-Y? Even if it cannot, making an analog
computer that integrates the Lorenz equations and allowing some knobs
to vary the parameters produces really pretty displays.
Takes a couple of analog multipliers. See my usenet posts on the
subject from early this year.
Tim.
12:56 p.m.
New subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 08:00 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Can't remember if it has an X-Y mode or not. I have a feeling the
answer's no... I'll have a look tomorrow though.
cheers
Jules
we've got
a nice HP polar display that's crying out to have something
interesting done with it
Can it be used in "pure" X-Y? Even if it cannot, making an analog
computer that integrates the Lorenz equations and allowing some knobs
to vary the parameters produces really pretty displays. 
10:36 a.m.
New subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
VERY nice setup Bob!!
I really should get some pictures of my HP bays online too, it'd be a good
contrast to Bob's setup. His seems to have more of a test & measurement
bent, while mine is more of a general computing bent. However, to do that,
I'd have to dump the digital camera of mine that has started taking icky
pictures and buy a new one :)
Jay
9 Jul
9 Jul
7:37 p.m.
New subject: OpenVMS 6.2 VAX CDs wanted
Hello all,
I am looking for a set of OpenVMS 6.2 CDs for VAX - does anyone here
have a set for sale?
(for hobbyist purposes....)
Thanks!
10 Jul
10 Jul
9:14 a.m.
New subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
I'm using a Casio Exilim EX-Z50, and I highly recommend it!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: HP 1000 System photos on-line
VERY nice setup Bob!!
I really should get some pictures of my HP bays online too, it'd be a good
contrast to Bob's setup. His seems to have more of a test & measurement
bent, while mine is more of a general computing bent. However, to do that,
I'd have to dump the digital camera of mine that has started taking icky
pictures and buy a new one :)
Jay
8 Jul
8 Jul
10:38 a.m.
New subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
To me, what is especially outstanding about Bob's setup is the IDE hard
drive interface, and the homebrew paper tape reader & punch to/from EEprom.
Talk about an incredible application of new technology to old technology!!!
Outstanding!!
Jay
10 Jul
10 Jul
9:15 a.m.
New subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line
Too bad they did not think about it that way as VCF East.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: HP 1000 System photos on-line
To me, what is especially outstanding about Bob's
setup is the IDE hard
drive interface, and the homebrew paper tape reader & punch to/from
EEprom. Talk about an incredible application of new technology to old
technology!!! Outstanding!!
Jay
6 Jul
6 Jul
9:40 a.m.
An IBM 650 showed up on eBay? And it sold for only
$5K??
Wow.
Two bidders. It ended up on a well known collection.
Thanks for the info. I think you're more right
than me about the 360s.
For some reason, people tend to pay more attention to DEC stuff. And I
think the size issue, as you explained, is probably the key reason why.
Size matters when collecting anything.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
7 Jul
7 Jul
8:17 p.m.
So what would be a good guess at the value of a working Imlac PDS-1 'alpha'
machine?
8:32 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote:
So what would be a good guess at the value of a
working Imlac PDS-1 'alpha'
machine?
I'd say it would fetch at least an IMSAI. Possibly more. If you
advertised pictures of it playing Spacewar! then it'd definitely sell for
more ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
10:43 p.m.
Is there a short vector version of SpaceWar?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8
On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote:
So what would be a good guess at the value of a
working Imlac PDS-1
'alpha'
machine?
I'd say it would fetch at least an IMSAI. Possibly more. If you
advertised pictures of it playing Spacewar! then it'd definitely sell for
more ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
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5 Jul
5 Jul
10:19 p.m.
You have to remember, that machine was in the lease
days of IBM. They took back their old machines and
flattened them in a wreaking yard down at Santa Maria.
I used to look for things like blocks of core memory
there.
Many died here as well. The scrapyard I throw my metal in Po city junked
oodles of IBMs over the years.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
6944
days inactive
6952
days old
60 comments
25 participants
participants (25)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
birs23＠zeelandnet.nl -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
bshannon＠tiac.net -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
computer＠officereach.net -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
dwight.elvey＠amd.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
jwstephens＠msm.umr.edu -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
msell＠vectorgames.org -
news＠computercollector.com -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
shoppa_classiccmp＠trailing-edge.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
tomj＠wps.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
waisun.chia＠gmail.com -
wmaddox＠pacbell.net