Thanks again to Sellam for throwing one heck of a party! and yes... to all of those that asked, I'll try to improve on the 'Special Effects' in the presentations for next year. ;^} -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org || jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

How can I get the VCF to hold it's event a bit closer to the East Coast than California? I wanted to go, but a 3500mile trek was out of the question. How about Montana or the Dakotas? jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 THETechnoid(a)home.com -----------------------------------------------------------

How bout putting it in the midwest (maybe chicago area) so it can be easily accessed from either coast? -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown

You call that easy? :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Dread each day as it comes. -- Donald Kaul ---------------------------------

.Well compared to 3000+ miles from Toronto -- yeah ! When I relocate next year to Manitoba, Minneapolis will be even better. GO John Keyes, GO ! ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker(a)look.ca

PLEASE, give me some break - right around eVCF is a bad idea. The time before I may be ocupied by some kind of organisation, while right after I'm occupied by Sallam :)) Serious, I'd realy love to visit VCF East, or Midwest or Whatever. In my opinion mid June may be a reasonable time frame. Gruss H. BTW, VCF.CA has been great as always ... -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote: Great, just what we need on the right coast, something else to cause more damage to hamfests and deplete them of the few remaining "vintage" computers. ...as if e-bilk wasn't bad enough. Does anyone (Tony (DRARD)?) have an appropritately suitable LART for that idiot who wrote the book on computer collecting a few years ago who got all these problems started? -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd(a)perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: Having once met a donkey, I can say that I found it to be a much more affable, and well mannered, creature than you appear to be; hence, I don't take that as an insult as you apparently intended it to be. To answer your question, however, I don't have four feet, have no long ears, and no tail, so, it's not at all difficult to deduce that the answer to your question is no. The VCF is also a place to draw the attention of non-hackers to computer collecting; while the prices of older equipment at VCF may not be terribly high, in terms of e-bay pricing or affordability for most of us here, I recon that they're still far higher than they were at hamfests several years ago. No, I neither said nor implied that. Now, who is the idiot? Perhaps you'll learn to wait for answers before jumping to conclusions. Yes Sellam, evolution is possible for all creatures, even you. :-) What I was implying is that it's harmful for those of us who like to collect and hack interesting finds that we pick up for a few dollars - treasures that were someone else's trash, you might say. In years past, before computer, and other vintage electronics, collecting became fashionable, some of us were able to spend less than US$100 and fill up a large station wagon with all sorts of computers, plus a few bits of Heathkit equipment, various electronic components, some audio stuff with tubes (valves), and then come home to find lots more interesing old computer finds lurking for-sale on Usenet, often for the cost of shipping. We didn't collect just for the sake of collecting or squirreling away equipment, for future profit, to complete a "collection," etc. We collected to have more fun toys to take apart, examine, repair, restore and hack. I sense that this group is composed of two different groups of people, who still have something in common - a desire to obtain and preserve older equipment. We just have differnt ideas as to how we go about it, the "serious collectors" and shelf-liners who are more interested in history and unmodified equipment verses the hackers who preserve equipment through curiosity, tinkering and reverse engineering and are responsible for the actual preservation of working systems. The former go around thinking "what's it worth" the later "neat, a new toy to hack!" I could expand upon this further, but I haven't the time tonight, alas. Perhaps we can have a discussion here about this without it turning into a flamefest. Good luck! By the way Sellam, something tells me that you're having a truly interesting month, one that will grow all the more "interesting" experiences as it progresses, that you may even learn something from by a strange twist of karma. Having fun yet? Oh stop looking into the mirror and muttering your thoughts to this group as you do so, before you risk further embarassment. ;-) All that said, I think that there's still probably much more that we agree about regarding older computers than we disagree about, and, while I don't like some things about VCF, I think that in some ways it's been quite beneficial to computer preservation, particularly from a historical perspective, as it helps to draw people together with a common interest who can share their knowledge of various machines, so, you see that I have mixed feelings about VCF, not all good, not all bad. I see and understand your perspective; can you see and understand mine? Have a good night, and, I do wish you good luck with collecting and preserving, and with having fun with these activities. -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd(a)perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD

May I jump in (your rant started as a reply to my mailing) ? Let's see, how would you name a meeting where several buyers went home with new toys at acceptable prices (a TRS 80 M1 with expansion box, printer and all dust covers (!) at USD 30 isn't realy overpriced) and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ? Take into account that time is progressing, and the number of available systems is shrinking - If 10 years ago 90% of all obsolete H-8s became scraped and 10% ended at ham fests, it resulted in plenty systems, since the absolute number was quite large. Just nowadays the absolute number is close to zero, and every aproach to save even single systems from the dumpster is needed. And promoting the collectibility is one way. Of course, some may try to get the green paper by the pound, but in general it just opens a path for people to learn that there are other people who take the old box / board / terminal, so it must not end in a dumpster. Remember, todays 10 year old computer isn't a H8, Altair or TRS-80, but rather a 386 Box !!! Maybe attend to the next VCF, and your view may change - the crowd is way more like what you describe - this greedy fine suit wearing non hacker collector is virtualy unseen. You're eventualy implying something that just isn't true. There's more than black and white - otherwise I'd look look lick a chess board. It is possible to bring 'original conditions' and 'play around' under one roof. In fact, again Classic Computing is siilar to Vintage Cars, there are different aproaches. Of course, there are show room collector guys where the cars are never moved (but even huge collections of true unique cars, like the one of the Deutsches Museum send pices to meetings on their own wheels), and on the other hand there are the Hot Rod comunity - don't kill me, I'm serious, these Hot Rods are by any means classic cars, and so their owners are preserving history ... just a bit modified to fit the individual taste! Alas it's hard to find someone who includes them. And between this extrems there's the vast majority of collectors who own just one, or maybe a few cars, who donate all their time to restore the original condition and run them on every possible occasion. Even some who restore an old car as vehicle for daily use (And some who just buy a restored car to impress friends). Belive me, VCF is (at least until now, and until the futur as far as I participate) by no means a great thing to bring real people together and help the technoids, and not a sell out of our hobby. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

Yup. Every time I walked by said dealer, I muttered loudly, "priced to stay." Rumor has it that said deal dumpstered a bunch of stuff after VCF 3 rather than hauling it back. I wonder if this happened again?

No, I wasn't talking about computer Jones (in fact, the 30 Buck M1 deal was from him), but rather the couple who waked away (and some other). But yes, he did it again, but this time we did some dumpster diveing to rescue most of the stuff - at least an ecological correct way of disposal awaits them. And, as already aggreed with Salam, the VCF will have a different policy about that for next year. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

Vendors dumping Schtuff after VCF. Details still have to be developed. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote: I wasn't there, but I take it that some vendors dumped stuff they couldn't sell? What is the problem with that? -- Aaron Nabil

Jerome Fine replies: There might be another reason. I don't agree with the reason, but if you attempt to step into their shoes (as I just did since I wanted to answer), they may feel that giving it away would prevent a sale in the future. Plus, if no one is willing to pay for the item, no one should have it. Probably the first reason (which is self-interest) is more correct. I really think it would have been very easy to anticipate the problem - maybe not the extent - and if small it probably would not matter. But even if it was or is small, I personally find the whole idea unreasonable. However, you will also find that if you actually have a standard policy that stops dumping, at least a few people will just take the junk with them after all and dump it somewhere else - which you should also consider. If that policy is also unreasonable, but you feel it is out of your hands if that happens, then you really need to re-think what should and needs to be done. Maybe have the vendors decide by a vote. I suspect that most people will not want their names associated with deliberate dumping. The question of taking stuff home could also be on the agenda - along with reserve prices, etc. However, since I have never been to a VCF and don't know how the vendors and customers feel about such things, I am just bring up some questions. Why not poll this list for some answers and give particular weight to previous vendors and customers. I would agree that is one of the most reasonable methods. Another might be tagging an article if it does not sell - maybe with a minimum donation to the VCF and having a window during which the item can be claimed. I don't know what the VCF budget is, but those donations could be used to provide a vendor with a credit for the next event - that way everyone seems to win. Maybe at least 10% of the items left unsold must be made available in that manner - vendors choice of course. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine

Jerome Fine replies: Just thought that I might point out that the next two replies were an indication that open discussions can serve to provide other points of view. I myself don't have anything else to add and I am not likely to ever be close enough to a VCF in any case. But I do agree that some procedure needs to be found to "discourage" dumping and "encourage" allowing free access to unsold items which the vendor has no further use for, i.e. will lug the item home just to put it in the dump at that end. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine

I just obtained, in various pieces, a VDP-40 and a VDP-44 from which I am hoping to assemble one working unit (perhaps to display at next year's VCF). Among the stuff was a bag of parts (resistors, capacitors, ICs, LEDs, etc.) with a parts list. I've scanned the list and posted it at: http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/Imsai/Bag_of_parts.j pg Can anyone i.d. this for me?

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: Wayne, there are two clues to what this is for. At the top of the page it says PIO, and one of the parts in the list is "PC Board, PIO Rev. 2". I am looking through an IMSAI manual I had handy and the PIO was one of the boards that I didn't have an assembly section for. However, I have an original IMSAI catalog, and the PIO board is pictured. I can easily make out 4 banks of 8 LEDs each (32 LEDs) plus the label on the board: "PIO Rev-2". So, we can determine that these are the pieces for an unassembled IMSAI PIO board (parallel interface). :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote: Again, ascribing "state of mind" to people just because they don't volunteer their rationale to you is silly. You aren't the one making the decision, they don't have an obligation to you to "explain themselves" to you. As a general rule, you can expect people to act in their own best interest. If someone thinks that reducing the price is in their interest, that's what they will do. If they think throwing it in the dumpster is in their best interest, that's what they will do. I'm not sure which of my expressions needs backup, but first and foremost, it's my stuff, I don't need to "explain" my actions, you can trust that being a reasonable person I'm going to act in my best interests. As for throwing away things being "less damaging" than selling them, I'll include a couple illustrations from "real life" to show how that it may not be the case. But what is important is that this isn't intended as an exautive list, I'm simply pointing out that people can have valid reasons for what they do even if they don't share them with you. Local high-tech company T has a surplus sales store, but instead of selling their own equipment at the store, they scrap it and only get a tiny fraction of the value back. They do this to avoid competing with their own new products. Hobbiest A has acquired most of the remaining sets of a particular test set that is in high demand on the surplus market. He has a large number of junk units that he could sell on Ebay or to other users for a few hundred dollars, but they would get fixed up and sold in competition with his really nice units (worth $1000), so he throws them away instead. And I'll make one up... Vendor X hauls a bunch of stuff down to VCF n, some of which he sells. People are interested in what he has, but aren't willing to pay what he thinks are reasonable prices. He has a warehouse of the stuff, realizes that there is going to be a VCF n+1 and that the same people will be there and the value of his warehouse of stuff will only go up. If he gives his stuff away, those will simply be sales he won't make next year, and he may be creating the impression that if you wait long enough everything will be "free" or "any offer accepted" at the end, thus driving down sales and prices even further. So he throws things in the dumpster, taking care to smash them extra hard on the way in. That's a prefectly reasonable rationale, and the Vendor X doesn't become any more "unreasonable" or less "sane" or "logical" becuase he didn't hand out a leaflet explaining what he was doing. -- Aaron Nabil

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: And this is a self-defeating situation. They need to keep their prices high so that the occasional sale they do make allows them to stay in operation. It's basic, simple, economics. High volume vs. high margin. Both have their pros and cons, but you also have to think about the market you're in. This is a hobbyist market. We don't have big bucks to go throwing around. Go for high volume and you'll come out ahead every time. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0) dumping too An illustration of how it pays to be patient and judicious in when you sell: there's a fellow in Vancouver BC (eBay id packnship) who has (or had) a large number of new or near new Amiga CD-32s. He's been steadily trickling them onto the market, one at a time, for months if not years. Every once in a while he throws in an extra goodie, like an SX-1 expansion or a CD-32 modem. They continually fetch good prices. I suspect that a Dutch auction or sale in bulk would have realized much lower prices. If you want a new in box CD-32, watch Computers > Hardware > Amiga on eBay for a while. Mark.

-> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote: -> > > Aaron Nabil <nabil(a)SpiritOne.com> -> > > I scrap (well, actually throw away) a HUGE amount of stuff rather than -> > > "sell it for less than I think it's worth". No, I'm not in the -> > > business, I'm just a hobbiest, but if I can have valid reasons for -> > > throwing things away instead of selling them at a lower price (or giving -> > > them away), I can certainly imagine that they do too. It's uncalled for -> > > ascribing "poor character" to people unless you also happen to be a mind -> > > reader, they might have perfectly valid reasons for doing what they do. -> > -> > A perfectly healthy state of mind of one person may be total -> > insanity to another, and your expression may need some additional -> > backup to be considered by most people. Throwing away goods -> > istead of selling is more damaging to the vendor than selling -> > at a lower price (even when lower than the cost to produce) . -> > This is valid for most economic situations, eventualy except -> > communist systems and EU buerocracy. -> -> Again, ascribing "state of mind" to people just because they don't -> volunteer their rationale to you is silly. You aren't the one making -> the decision, they don't have an obligation to you to "explain -> themselves" to you. Especially when the explanation would only reveal that the basis of the decision is greed and/or selfishness. -> As a general rule, you can expect people to act in their own best -> interest. If someone thinks that reducing the price is in their interest, -> that's what they will do. If they think throwing it in the dumpster is in -> their best interest, that's what they will do. -> -> I'm not sure which of my expressions needs backup, but first and foremost, -> it's my stuff, I don't need to "explain" my actions, While this is very true, those that refuse to explain the rationale of what to others are inexplicable behaviors usually are just hiding their true motivations, knowing that the revelation of those motivations to others will open their beliefs and themselves to scrutiny. -> you can trust that -> being a reasonable person I'm going to act in my best interests. As for -> throwing away things being "less damaging" than selling them, I'll -> include a couple illustrations from "real life" to show how that it may -> not be the case. But what is important is that this isn't intended as an -> exautive list, I'm simply pointing out that people can have valid reasons -> for what they do even if they don't share them with you. -> -> Local high-tech company T has a surplus sales store, but instead of -> selling their own equipment at the store, they scrap it and only get -> a tiny fraction of the value back. They do this to avoid -> competing with their own new products. Explanation: Greed. -> -> Hobbiest A has acquired most of the remaining sets of a particular test -> set that is in high demand on the surplus market. He has a large number -> of junk units that he could sell on Ebay or to other users for a few -> hundred dollars, but they would get fixed up and sold in competition with -> his really nice units (worth $1000), so he throws them away instead.0) Explanation: Greed as motivation again. Selfishness also. I can imagine that it never enters into the thought process of a greed driven seller like this that a buyer who just can't afford the "really nice units (worth $1000)" would gladly buy a "junk" unit, invest the time and effort to repair/restore it and then use it, having no thoughts of re-selling it on eBay. The seller in this instance is so fearful of competition that he will relinquish maximum profits to control an imagined future competitive situation. Is the fear of competition in this instance so strong as to cause an irrational action? I think so. Would this seller likely hide his true motivation with a statement such as "It's my stuff, I don't need to "explain" my actions."? Probably. -> -> -> And I'll make one up... -> -> Vendor X hauls a bunch of stuff down to VCF n, some of which he sells. -> People are interested in what he has, but aren't willing to pay what he -> thinks are reasonable prices. He has a warehouse of the stuff, realizes -> that there is going to be a VCF n+1 and that the same people will be there -> and the value of his warehouse of stuff will only go up. If he gives his -> stuff away, those will simply be sales he won't make next year, and he may -> be creating the impression that if you wait long enough everything will be -> "free" or "any offer accepted" at the end, thus driving down sales and -> prices even further. So he throws things in the dumpster, taking care to -> smash them extra hard on the way in. -> -> That's a prefectly reasonable rationale, and the Vendor X doesn't become -> any more "unreasonable" or less "sane" or "logical" becuase he didn't -> hand out a leaflet explaining what he was doing. This isn't a reasonable rationale at all. Again, with greed as the prime motivation here, what appears to others as irrational actions occurs. Just because the seller has a reason for his actions doesn't make it reasonable, rational or sane. The fact that he refuses to explain his actions is a clue that he also knows his rationale for his actions is unacceptable. His actions are no more justified than the other seller who claims he heard a voice inside his head telling him to blow up the VCF because every is plotting against him to ensure that he doesn't sell anything. Bill -> -> -- -> Aaron Nabil ->

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Aaron Nabil wrote: As I mentioned in a previous message, you must choose your market. This is not the right hobby to be trying to make a living with. Trust me, I know. Of course, having an Apple-1 to sell is a different story, but it still isn't something to retire on ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Bill Dawson wrote: People who buy and sell surplus have a much wider market than "classic computer collectors" or they are out of business. If anything, the collectors are the fringe weirdos who hang around the warehouse sniffing about the dumpsters and making absurdly low offers on things. Ie, me. A more accurate rendition would be "If I can't get the minimum price I want for it, I won't sell it to you for less even though I might end up throwing it away later." Which seems perfectly reasonable to me. I trust sellers are sufficiently motivated by pressures like "eating" and "paying the rent" that they will always accept a truly reasonable offer. Well, one problem is what you are defining as "vintage" and as "unethical to dumpster" might be what the vendor defines as crap. There is a wide range of what people consider "vintage" (certainly most of the computers being discussed on this list fall more into the "crap" category than "vintage" in my mind, but that's just my personal tastes). The list reports of "Ooo! I just rescued a Radio Shack COCO from Goodwill!" seems only an fraction less silly to me than someone reporting that they "rescued" a 15 inch VGA monitor from Goodwill. So to you it might be a "precious piece of computer history", to the vendor it's a "piece of crap some crazy people might think is valuable". And the dumpstering of it, heritage" while to the vendor it's "getting rid of the garbage the freaks wouldn't buy". To the vendor it isn't a ethics question but a logistics one. The problem is that it does "somehow" increase the value. The somehow was detailed in chapter 1 of your Econ 101 book. If you want to label the desire to maximize profit as "greed and selfishness" you are welcome to but it's not a very realistic way of looking at how the world works. Well, he might do that. More power to him. I wouldn't call that "greed", and without analyzing the numbers I certainly wouldn't be in the position to call it "foolish" or a "faulty business sense". If he maximizes the return on his investment by scrapping most of it and selling the best bits, then that's what he should do. What is foolish is second-guessing other people when you aren't in their place. Sounds like a plan to me. Good luck. ;) Aaron Nabil

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Aaron Nabil wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Don't you mean computer preservationists? Why not do that? If no one is making any offers, then our low offers should be appreciated; after all, is it not more sensible to make some money on something rather than no money, or at lease minimize the losses? Aside from it being better for us, it's also better from a business standpoint. To just toss equipment into the dumpster because no one will pay a certain fixed price for it, seems like a temper-tantrum (wahhhh.... no one will pay me what I want.... [sounds of feet and fists hitting floor and jumping up and down on the computer equipment] wahhhhh!!!!). That, I think, is childish, is it not? Ok, time to put your thinking cap on... no, not the romper-stompers, your thinking cap. Ok, now, didn't you mean to say "wasteful" instead of reasonable? ;-) If they're reasonable, then, they'll take _some_ amount of money from a collector if no other buyers are willing to pay more, so as to minimize their losses, rather than take total losses and destroy vintage equipment that, somewhere, someone can find useful. It's not like we're out here looking for free handouts. We offer to pay what we think is reasonable, although free finds are certainly nice when we do find them. :-) The vendors only define vintage equipement as "crap" because they don't know any better... of course, that's often to our advantage, but not always. There are still plenty of uses for 15" VGA monitors for applications that don't require high-res. graphics. Yes, and look at the condition that the world is in. Maximizing profits beyond a certain point can be bad for business; take too much away from customer service, goodwill, etc. and those pennies squeezed out to be saved soon become pennies lost. -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd(a)perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD

Hobby of preservation, business of scrap. If you have never actually seen a cow, or searched long and hard and finally found one, then it is fairly easy to think of them as noble animals and hamburger an unworthy end for them. Regular exposure in larger numbers and cents per pound seems quite reasonable. People who scrap old computers by the truckload everyday have a different point of view from collectors. They know that 99.9% of the stuff that passes through their hands has no buyer except as scrap, and that the 0.1% that appeals to collectors often brings a much higher price. Even at the much higher price per pound we as collectors are just a tiny blip on the bottom line. Its a free country, hop right into the scrap business if it looks so good.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: Charles, don't take this the wrong way but there are plenty of newsgroups that cover this. This is way OT for CC. E-mail me privately and I'll be happy to give you info that will get you started (and possibly finished). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, John Allain wrote: Actually, it's not a "real" mac, but a PowerComputing machine, so all of the named signals are compatible (well, the mouse is kind of flaky when switched through the KVM, so I just resign myself to having two mice on the desk...)

There are a couple of freeware or shareware Linux-based "products" that make a good router/firewall/gateway. They include: ShareTheNet: http://www.sharethenet.com Freesco: http://www.freesco.org These tend to be easy to set up, but may not do a lot of other stuff you might want (print server, etc.). See, in general: Linux Router Project: http://www.linuxrouter.org I've used ShareTheNet with an old 386/8MB/floppy-only system for over two years now with my DSL connection. (It's in a small case with no keyboard or monitor.) STN hasn't "improved" much recently, but it does everything I want it to do. Freesco has a few more features, is still evolving, and is free. The Mac and PC can "read each other's hard drives" over your local area network using FTP, but if you want to go beyond that, you'll need additional software on one or both of the machines. I don't think your router/firewall/gateway can do much to expedite this aspect. Dave "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote:

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: There are still 'bargains' to be had, but they are certainly getting fewer, although I did pick up a Canon Cat last Saturday for only $5. But certainly the vast supplies of S-100 pieces and most 8-bit stuff has almost completely disappeared. Off to the Elephant's Graveyard, I guess. - don

Hamfest & Convention Database of the ARRL: everything! you ever wanted to know about hamfests. http://www.arrl.org/hamfests.html Neil Cherry wrote: