5 Apr
1999
5 Apr
'99
3:56 p.m.
I'm going to have to take an opposing position once again. I'd never have
given up on terminals, having invested hundreds of kilobucks in them over
time. My recollection, biased, I'm sure, by the ten years of trouble-free,
experience, thanks to being terminal-free is that they were more trouble
than I ever expected.
Since I stopped using terminals, I've not once been unable to use a software
package because I didn't have the right terminal. Whether it's VMS or
WORDSTAR, it is a royal pain if the hardware I've got won't work. Terminals
are different. They behave differently, given various commands. Yes, ANSI
terminals are more or less compatible, but they won't work with the
applications I used to use under CP/M at all.
I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste
(and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their
overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the
fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their
products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I had
to have terminals around as long as I did.
A keyboard interface is quite straightforward. A video display is not. I
agree that there's reason why so many computers used terminals, but now that
we don't have to do that, I propose that we not limit ourselves to what
little a terminal can do.
See . . . there are reasons NOT to use a terminal.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience...
fixing
stuff
>
> While I agree fundamentally in that you really don't have to have graphic
> output capabilities, to wit, I did without it for over 30 years of
computer
use, I
don't believe there's any reason to favor the terimnal over the
direct-mapped monochrome video display. It's nominally a 2000 character
A few reasons. It's a lot easier to add a serial port than add a video
display/keyboard system (I've done both, many times). And Tim is right :
Serial terminals are probably a lot more universal than whatever flavour
of monitor that you pick.
> as for what you find difficult to get fixed . . . (a) who cares about > a serial card? Another costs $3. (b) pre-vga
monochrome cards and
monitors
I care. Particularly when I need the darn thing over a weekend, it's
failed on Saturday night, and I have a junk box full of chips, but no
spare boards... I also care about keeping the landfills empty.
And I specificially mentioned the IBM Async card for a reason. It has a
current loop I/O facility. AFAIK none of the cheap clones - the ones
you'll get for $3 - have this facility. Adding it wouldn't be hard given
a schematic and a well-stocked junk box, but what's the point? By the
time you've traced out the schematic and made the mods you might as well
have fixed the original card.
Suffice it to say that I have full schematics of this PC and intend to
keep on fixing it properly...
> abound at the thrift stores. Keyboards do as well. (c) so long as hard
disk
drives of the
ST506 variety still abound in the thrift stores, the
Those drives are getting fairly hard to find in the UK :-(
> controllers will too. I passed on an 'AT box a week ago, which had a VGA
> card, a 200+ MB eide 3.5" 1/3-height hard disk, and much of the usual
You're missing the point. If I have my data on an ST506 drive and the
controller fails, the last thing I need is an EIDE drive, however big it
is. I need a controller, or the chips to fix my existing controller. I
want to get my data back.
> I figure, if I can't replace it with something similar, then I'll replace
it
with something
more current.
Maybe... You might find you're replacing an awful lot of the machine,
though... ISA is on the way out, remember..
Personally, I'll stick to machines that I can maintain properly (no board
swapping!). And _I_'ll decide when I want to upgrade.
-tony
5 Apr
5 Apr
5:55 p.m.
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly
because of my distaste
(and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their
overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the
fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their
products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I had
to have terminals around as long as I did.
Ever read a MICROS~1 license agreement? The DEC sales material wasn't
binding.
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
6 Apr
6 Apr
3:35 a.m.
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste
> (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their
> overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the
> fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their
> products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I
had
> to have terminals around as long as I did.
As someone that spent 10 years with DEC doing everthing possible to
improve product and perception of service, I resent that! I remember far
to many times bending over backward for customers to solve their problems
and often flying all over the country on a moments notice. We werent
perfect but, damm we tried.
Ever read a MICROS~1 license agreement? The DEC sales
material wasn't
binding.
Yes, it's a pip.
Allison
7 Apr
7 Apr
9:38 p.m.
At 08:35 06/04/99 -0400, allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
Well as someone who has (had?) been a Digital/DEC customer for 25 years one
of the problems that DEC had was that until too late they weren't focused
on the bottom line, rather decent engineering. Anyone who has (for example)
taken a VAX-11/780 or VAX8800 to pieces will note that there are an awful
large number of mechanical bits that are engineered to last a 100 years!
I'm sure half the weight of an 11/780 is in bolts :-)
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au
Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479
1999
La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"
> On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> > I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste
> > (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for
their
> > overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning
THEIR bottom line. If you
read the
> > fine print, their sales documents
specifically deny that they claim their
> > products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason
I had
> to have
terminals around as long as I did.
As someone that spent 10 years with DEC doing everthing possible to
improve product and perception of service, I resent that! I remember far
to many times bending over backward for customers to solve their problems
and often flying all over the country on a moments notice. We werent
perfect but, damm we tried. 
6 Apr
6 Apr
11:44 a.m.
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8 Apr
8 Apr
8:26 p.m.
On my homebuilt computer quest.......
There's two groups:
Built in video and serial i/o to terminal attached concepts.
Can you explain the process to "init" and operate video chip based
on 6845 chip with own ram ? Possible to use SRAM with it?
Is there CPU specific limitations?
I have many of them and certainly get put in use on computer.
And alteratives:
How one place characters on terminal, give examples of terminal
coding as sent from computer to terminal?
-outputting characters to screen?
-resetting cursor to different places?
Which CPU is very friendly for creating basic codings to put into
ROM and assembling? Z80? or suitable CPU?
Thanks!
Wizard
9 Apr
9 Apr
9:23 a.m.
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10 Apr
10 Apr
12:40 p.m.
New subject: 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted.
Needs to be full info on all jumpers used on the HDs. Here's the
problem I'm having.
I'm using Ultrastor 12F-24 controller. This is 24Mb rated card for
these two drives.
I can't get r/w after LLF with onboard bios of that card, but I can
work with the either HD's and I'm sure the 20pin cable (did removed
connectors, cutoff "bad" part then recrimped) is good and PSU is
healthy. The controller can pull up the hd specs correctly.
The sector type selection is correct for the PC use but I think some
other jumper settings is not correct for this. Might was setup for
non pc applications but uses same 512 sector type on one and
different sector size on other.
Thanks!
Details:
1538 is .9 GB formatted, part #XS0030-01-7E
UK 1518 is 1.3 GB formatted, part #TS0021-01-1
NOTE: tried .go2net.com search, theref and blue planet with little
luck.
Wizard
2:10 p.m.
New subject: 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted.
On Sat, 10 Apr 1999 jpero(a)cgocable.net wrote:
Needs to be full info on all jumpers used on the HDs.
Here's the
problem I'm having.
I'm using Ultrastor 12F-24 controller. This is 24Mb rated card for
these two drives.
I can't get r/w after LLF with onboard bios of that card, but I can
work with the either HD's and I'm sure the 20pin cable (did removed
connectors, cutoff "bad" part then recrimped) is good and PSU is
healthy. The controller can pull up the hd specs correctly.
You did FDISK and FORMAT, did you not. Or am I misunderstanding your
problem.
- don
The sector type selection is correct for the PC use
but I think some
other jumper settings is not correct for this. Might was setup for
non pc applications but uses same 512 sector type on one and
different sector size on other.
Thanks!
Details:
1538 is .9 GB formatted, part #XS0030-01-7E
UK 1518 is 1.3 GB formatted, part #TS0021-01-1
NOTE: tried .go2net.com search, theref and blue planet with little
luck.
Wizard
2:51 p.m.
New subject: Micropolis 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted.
Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:10:05 -0700 (PDT)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted.
Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
You did FDISK and FORMAT, did you not. Or am I
misunderstanding your
problem.
- don
When using ESDI HD with controller for first time, has to LLF it first
then fdisk and format comes next.
True for different controllers if changed.
BTW; my brain is sleepy, I forgot to say Micropolis.
I need jumpers settings not just for drive select and sector size
selections.
> Details:
>
> 1538 is .9 GB formatted, part #XS0030-01-7E
>
> UK 1518 is 1.3 GB formatted, part #TS0021-01-1
>
> NOTE: tried .go2net.com search, theref and blue planet with little
> luck.
Wizard
8:43 p.m.
New subject: Micropolis 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted.
On Sat, 10 Apr 1999 jpero(a)cgocable.net wrote:
________O/_______
O\
When using ESDI HD with controller for first time, has
to LLF it first
then fdisk and format comes next.
True for different controllers if changed.
Yes, I know that. I use the Ultrastor also, but with Maxtor drives.
BTW; my brain is sleepy, I forgot to say Micropolis.
I recognized the model numbers.
I need jumpers settings not just for drive select and
sector size
selections.
Sorry, the amount of Micropolis data that I have is very minimal and does
not include those drives.
- don
> Details:
>
> 1538 is .9 GB formatted, part #XS0030-01-7E
>
> UK 1518 is 1.3 GB formatted, part #TS0021-01-1
>
> NOTE: tried .go2net.com search, theref and blue planet with little
> luck.
Wizard
11 Apr
11 Apr
10:23 a.m.
New subject: Micropolis 1518 and 1538 - update (still problems)
Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:43:08 -0700 (PDT)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Micropolis 1518 and 1538, full manual for both wanted.
Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
I still need full jumpers info set to set up the Micropolis properly
and I have to ask my friend to burn new set of EPROM's for the
ultrastor 12F-24 (old is 009 version, the latest is 11 and 12)
Problems:
I can LLF and map defects, save them and verify whole thing but
fdisk seems to destory the data and the configuration data seems
not to kept on the drive itself deposited by controller. True on the
1518 (1.3GB) but I have no problems on 1538 (.9GB).
I think it's the EPROM 009 version is the problem?
Any ideas?
Wizard
1:46 p.m.
New subject: Micropolis 1518 and 1538 - update (still problems)
On Sun, 11 Apr 1999 jpero(a)cgocable.net wrote:
________O/_______
O\
Problems:
I can LLF and map defects, save them and verify whole thing but
fdisk seems to destory the data and the configuration data seems
not to kept on the drive itself deposited by controller. True on the
1518 (1.3GB) but I have no problems on 1538 (.9GB).
I think it's the EPROM 009 version is the problem?
Any ideas?
Not really, as I never had any comparable problems with the Maxtors using
either the earlier or later EPROMs. I presume that you have picked up the
available documentation from the web.
- don
21 Apr
21 Apr
7:07 p.m.
New subject: VME? related to College search.
What's about this VME and programming on that 68000 type?
Don't anyone have graphics of VME stuff like cages, cards, VME
equipments? And how common is this out in that canadian field?
I see that in my college electronic engineering technology course
info by Algonquin College in canada within Ottawa, Ontario.
Other college St. Lawerence College offers same type of course
but uses x86 and pc type circuits in their courses which in my
opinion bit shortsighted and lacks "commerical" areas compared to
Algonquin's.
Keep your thoughts freely flowing!
Thanks
Wizard
22 Apr
22 Apr
4:08 a.m.
New subject: VME? related to College search.
Upon the date 12:07 AM 4/22/99 -0400, jpero(a)cgocable.net said something like:
What's about this VME and programming on that 68000
type?
If I understand your question, the VMEbus is a 32-bit microcomputer bus
which is used primarily in industrial computers. Certain Sun products also
used it but I defere to those experts for further Sun comment.
VMEbus was invented by John Black and others at Motorola in 1983. Came from
the now-obsolete VersaModule bus structure Moto had since I think the
mid-70's. Basic form factor was the Eurocard with DIN 46xxx connector
(can't recall DIN number at moment). Hence, VMEbus = VersaModule Eurocard
bus. Quickly became a standardized bus protocol worldwide.
Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers of hardware. Others
followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k
processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000
RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus
module designs.
A fairly recent extension of the VMEbus protocol, VME64, extends the bus to
64 bits. The physics community is a major user of VME64 nowadays.
Don't anyone have graphics of VME stuff like cages, cards, VME
Start by looking at this URL from eg3 which has a good list of VMEbus
resources: http://www.eg3.com/indc/indcxvme.htm.
VITA - The VMEBus International Trade Association, has a URL:
http://www.vita.com/ . You could find more info and links there.
equipments? And how common is this out in that
canadian field?
Should be as common as it was in the States as it was found usually in
embedded industrial control and data collection systems in factories, etc.
Of course, the PeeCee stuff replaced some installations if the user wanted
to move to or start his/her design using the Intel processor or go for a
design 'on the cheap and dirty' as VMEbus products and s/w could be a bit
pricey. Multibus I and II and, to a smaller extent, STDbus and G64 were
competition to VMEbus.
I see that in my college electronic engineering technology course
info by Algonquin College in canada within Ottawa, Ontario.
Other college St. Lawerence College offers same type of course
but uses x86 and pc type circuits in their courses which in my
opinion bit shortsighted and lacks "commerical" areas compared to
Algonquin's.
I agree. Algonquin is fine with including VMEbus and other industrial
busses in their course structure. PeeCee could be included but for critical
real time apps it should be stated that VMEbus and its board products and
OS's are one the several non-PeeCee systems which really shine.
Keep your thoughts freely flowing!
Yeah, well the on topic ones are fine from us, but . . . ;)
Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa
6:46 a.m.
New subject: VME? related to College search.
Upon the date 12:07 AM 4/22/99 -0400,
jpero(a)cgocable.net said something like:
>What's about this VME and programming on that 68000 type?
If I understand your question, the VMEbus is a 32-bit
microcomputer bus
which is used primarily in industrial computers. Certain Sun products also
used it but I defere to those experts for further Sun comment.
Not to forget ATARI - Yes, ATARI also used VME - the TT (you know,
the always anounced, never available and to expensive 68030 system)
had two ( 3 ?) VME slots for add ons. The idea was baicly to have a
chance to add 'better' Graphic cards, since the TT was intended as
Graphic Workstation.
Eventualy the TT was also in a somewhat unintentional demand from
engeneering companies (the TT would had given a beautifull low
cost VME development system) - again a market where ATARI did
totaly miss, while the customers where _WAITING_ for the machine.
VMEbus was invented by John Black and others at
Motorola in 1983. Came from
the now-obsolete VersaModule bus structure Moto had since I think the
mid-70's. Basic form factor was the Eurocard with DIN 46xxx connector
(can't recall DIN number at moment). Hence, VMEbus = VersaModule Eurocard
bus. Quickly became a standardized bus protocol worldwide.
Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers of
hardware. Others
followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k
processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000
RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus
module designs.
Somewhat popular ? VME is still #1 when it comes to industrial apps.
Only the enhanced usage of PCs can stand against with ISA/PCI backplanes
and the _very_ popular PC104 systems.
Gruss
H.
(Thanks Christian)
--
Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/
Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/
Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
5:10 a.m.
New subject: VME? related to College search.
Upon the date 03:47 PM 4/22/99 +0001, Hans Franke said something like:
I'm not very aware of that machine. However, I personally don't pay much
attention to ATARI as they are a machine not in my scope of interest. I
have to place limits on myself in some way :)
I tend to occasionally understate things. I did so in this case as there
would often be the person who stands up and says <their favorite bus> is #1
and then the list would degenerate into yet another pi--ing contest.
(Personally, I think VME is #1 indust. bus myself and fully agree with you,
but please don't tell anybody! ;) ;) ;)
> Upon the date 12:07 AM 4/22/99 -0400,
jpero(a)cgocable.net said something
like:
>What's
about this VME and programming on that 68000 type?
If I understand your question, the VMEbus is a
32-bit microcomputer bus
which is used primarily in industrial computers. Certain Sun products also
used it but I defere to those experts for further Sun comment.
Not to forget ATARI - Yes, ATARI also used VME - the TT (you know,
the always anounced, never available and to expensive 68030 system)
had two ( 3 ?) VME slots for add ons. The idea was baicly to have a
chance to add 'better' Graphic cards, since the TT was intended as
Graphic Workstation.
Eventualy the TT was also in a somewhat unintentional demand from
engeneering companies (the TT would had given a beautifull low
cost VME development system) - again a market where ATARI did
totaly miss, while the customers where _WAITING_ for the machine. VMEbus was invented by John Black and others at
Motorola in 1983. Came from
the now-obsolete VersaModule bus structure Moto had since I think the
mid-70's. Basic form factor was the Eurocard with DIN 46xxx connector
(can't recall DIN number at moment). Hence, VMEbus = VersaModule Eurocard
bus. Quickly became a standardized bus protocol worldwide.
Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers
of hardware. Others
followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k
processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000
RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus
module designs.
Somewhat popular ? VME is still #1 when it comes to industrial apps. Only the enhanced usage of PCs can stand against with
ISA/PCI backplanes
and the _very_ popular PC104 systems.
Those PC104 systems are indeed nice for their small size.
Gruss
H.
(Thanks Christian)
Bitte sch?n!
Bis sp?ter, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa
7:27 a.m.
New subject: VME? related to College search.
>Not to forget ATARI - Yes, ATARI also used VME -
the TT (you know,
>the always anounced, never available and to expensive 68030 system)
>had two ( 3 ?) VME slots for add ons. The idea was baicly to have a
>chance to add 'better' Graphic cards, since the TT was intended as
>Graphic Workstation.
>Eventualy the TT was also in a somewhat
unintentional demand from
>engeneering companies (the TT would had given a beautifull low
>cost VME development system) - again a market where ATARI did
>totaly miss, while the customers where _WAITING_ for the machine.
I'm not very aware of that machine. However, I
personally don't pay much
attention to ATARI as they are a machine not in my scope of interest. I
have to place limits on myself in some way :)
It was a nice and well designed machine, but just again marketed
wrong. Over here it got a lot of cheers from small engeneering
companies (and did backward push the usage of VME - a usable and
_payable_ development system is essential).
>> Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest
suppliers of hardware. Others
>> followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k
>> processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's
88000
>> RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus
>> module designs.
>Somewhat popular ? VME is still #1 when it comes
to industrial apps.
I tend to occasionally understate things. I did so in
this case as there
would often be the person who stands up and says <their favorite bus> is #1
and then the list would degenerate into yet another pi--ing contest.
(Personally, I think VME is #1 indust. bus myself and fully agree with you,
but please don't tell anybody! ;) ;) ;)
This wasn't a personal statement - my last VME project was
some 10 years ago (installations are still working).
>Only the enhanced usage of PCs can stand against
with ISA/PCI backplanes
>and the _very_ popular PC104 systems.
Those PC104 systems are indeed nice for their small
size.
Cute - I've a 486-66 system on my table - with VGA, LAN, Sound, HD
and usual I/O - all in a cube of less than 13x13x13 cm^3 - that's
what I call a workplace system :)
Bis später, Chris
Ja, bis spaeter
Servus
Hans
--
Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/
Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/
Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
9205
days inactive
9222
days old
17 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
allisonp＠world.std.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cfandt＠netsync.net -
donm＠cts.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
jpero＠cgocable.net