21 Mar
2015
21 Mar
'15
4:17 a.m.
I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning...
I was selling and donating my 80's computer collection away, because I really
couldn't get anymore kicks of home computers (gateaway theory is right, Commodores are
step to mainframes ...)
Anyways, I asked every buyer have they seen any thing big, old computers anywhere here in
Finland. One guy gave hint of some truck sized IBM, which he had seen at his old job. He
told it is probably going to scrap yard and he sent photo of it. I was stunned, FULL 1800
SYSTEM.
Next step was find boss who decide what is going to happen that IBM. I called him and
asked how's IBM. Firstly he thought I'm gold digger. After some talk, he became
convinced I'm real deal. Sadly, he told me that IBM is in their private museum, and
not for sale or not planned to donate anywhere. But he invited me to see that IBM. I was
little dissapointed, but better than nothing I thought.
After couple months, I went to there to see IBM. Boss had changed at that time, there was
new guy. He also understand historical value of that big iron, no doubt it. We drove
plant where that IBM was. When I see it, I was stunned. It was absolute spectacular! It
was stood 30 years after service in dry and warm warehouse, same place where it installed
early 70's. It have stood still almost long as I have wander this world! Time was
stopped that room, it looks like we have got back to 80's on time machine. 2311 disk
packs was left probably just where they are 30 years ago.
Here's pic:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W-NnRINlhESk5aNUk&authuser=0
System contains 1801 CPU, 1803 additional core storage unit, 2841 drive adapter, couple
2311 hard drives, 1826 data adapter, 1443 printer, terminals, card readers/punches, etc...
It is giant system!
Now comes twist to plot, this new boss suddenly asked: "When you could make pickup
for this IBM?". I'm not that type guy, who can get be quiet that easy, but I
could just stutter something like "I can pickup every you want". :D
So, I was so excited, own IBM 1800, that is just what I have always wanted, own mainframe
:D (...360 would be even better but this would do the trick as well ;) We have not that
much computers back 60's or 70's. like below 200 at 1970. So you can imagine how
rare big iron is here and it is totally unlikely you could find anything this good at
Finland these days.
**************
But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only (wide) staircase
down to street level. So cabinets have to partly disassemble to light those
"little" bit.
I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get it back
together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I know what is waiting me
there. And by the way, what weights so much these units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power
supplies so heavy or is there lead poured to structure ;) ?
I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some good advices
also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;)
Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
21 Mar
21 Mar
4:56 a.m.
Well done Johannes!
I guess you have the Physical Planning manual from Bitsavers. 907kg
seems a bit much - but maybe if it's fully optioned. Yes, power supplies
are heavy, frames are heavy, motors are heavy.
If they got it up there it must be possible to get it out! From my time
dismantling and reassembling the Model 30 I would say it's not designed
to be dismantled on-site. It can be done, of course, and I suggest
copious photographs before the during the process. I stripped the CPU
down to a bare frame, but maybe you don't need to go that far. It will
be in manageable sub-units, but they're likely to be solidly wired
together rather than with convenient connectors.
All the best, and I'm sure Mike Ross will chime in soon:
http://www.corestore.org/1800-2.htm for some of his photos of the innards.
Lawrence
On 21/03/15 08:17, Johannes Thelen wrote:
I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to
start from beginning...
<snip>
But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only (wide) staircase
down to street level. So cabinets have to partly disassemble to light those
"little" bit.
I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get it back
together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I know what is waiting me
there. And by the way, what weights so much these units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power
supplies so heavy or is there lead poured to structure ;) ?
I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some good
advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;)
Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
--
Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk
Ph +44(0)7841-048948 http://www.ljw.me.uk
12:35 p.m.
On 03/21/2015 03:56 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote:
Well done Johannes!
I guess you have the Physical Planning manual from
Bitsavers. 907kg seems a bit much - but maybe if it's
fully optioned. Yes, power supplies are heavy, frames are
heavy, motors are heavy.
If they got it up there it must be possible to get it out!
From my time dismantling and reassembling the Model 30 I
would say it's not designed to be dismantled on-site.
YOU'RE the guy who
put the 360/30 on a 2nd floor office! My
hat's off to you! Incredible story, I have it archived on
my computer.
Actually, I think the 1800 is quite modular, each cabinet
will separate pretty cleanly, with a couple cables and some
bolts. These won't be light, but a LOT lighter and more
manageable than even a 360/30. I'm pretty sure a few guys
could get this down a flight of stairs one cabinet at a time
without great difficulty.
It can be done, of course, and I suggest copious
photographs before the during the process. I stripped the
CPU down to a bare frame, but maybe you don't need to go
that far. It will be in manageable sub-units, but they're
likely to be solidly wired together rather than with
convenient connectors.
No, as I say, it was quite modular. (Not an 1800 expert,
but I know just a little about that system.)
Jon
4:57 a.m.
Wow, it sounds like you really "petted the puppy", eh? Now you own it, and
it will never leave you.. ;-)
In any case, good for you! I only wish I had the kind of space a man would
really need to devote to this kind of materiel. Best of luck, my friend!
On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 3:17 AM, Johannes Thelen <johannesthelen at hotmail.com
wrote:
I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning...
I was selling and donating my 80's computer collection away, because I
really couldn't get anymore kicks of home computers (gateaway theory is
right, Commodores are step to mainframes ...)
Anyways, I asked every buyer have they seen any thing big, old computers
anywhere here in Finland. One guy gave hint of some truck sized IBM, which
he had seen at his old job. He told it is probably going to scrap yard and
he sent photo of it. I was stunned, FULL 1800 SYSTEM.
Next step was find boss who decide what is going to happen that IBM. I
called him and asked how's IBM. Firstly he thought I'm gold digger. After
some talk, he became convinced I'm real deal. Sadly, he told me that IBM is
in their private museum, and not for sale or not planned to donate
anywhere. But he invited me to see that IBM. I was little dissapointed, but
better than nothing I thought.
After couple months, I went to there to see IBM. Boss had changed at that
time, there was new guy. He also understand historical value of that big
iron, no doubt it. We drove plant where that IBM was. When I see it, I was
stunned. It was absolute spectacular! It was stood 30 years after service
in dry and warm warehouse, same place where it installed early 70's. It
have stood still almost long as I have wander this world! Time was stopped
that room, it looks like we have got back to 80's on time machine. 2311
disk packs was left probably just where they are 30 years ago.
Here's pic:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W-NnRINlhESk5aNUk&authuser=0
System contains 1801 CPU, 1803 additional core storage unit, 2841 drive
adapter, couple 2311 hard drives, 1826 data adapter, 1443 printer,
terminals, card readers/punches, etc... It is giant system!
Now comes twist to plot, this new boss suddenly asked: "When you could
make pickup for this IBM?". I'm not that type guy, who can get be quiet
that easy, but I could just stutter something like "I can pickup every you
want". :D
So, I was so excited, own IBM 1800, that is just what I have always
wanted, own mainframe :D (...360 would be even better but this would do the
trick as well ;) We have not that much computers back 60's or 70's. like
below 200 at 1970. So you can imagine how rare big iron is here and it is
totally unlikely you could find anything this good at Finland these days.
**************
But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only
(wide) staircase down to street level. So cabinets have to partly
disassemble to light those "little" bit.
I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get
it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I
know what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights so much these
units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead
poured to structure ;) ?
I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some
good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;)
Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
5:08 a.m.
1) As its in-place might have been easier to negotiate rent on location, but
probably too much money for one person.
2) I wonder if it went in through a window. It was common practice to take a
window out and crane the pallets in.
3) If it's a "museum" does any of the documentation remain. There would
usually have been a set of Customer Engineer hardware manuals in a wheeled
trolley. I used to have a photo of these but I can't find it now..
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johannes
Thelen
Sent: 21 March 2015 08:17
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning...
I was selling and donating my 80's computer collection away, because I
really
couldn't get anymore kicks of home computers
(gateaway theory is right,
Commodores are step to mainframes ...)
Anyways, I asked every buyer have they seen any thing big, old computers
anywhere here in Finland. One guy gave hint of some truck sized IBM, which
he had seen at his old job. He told it is probably going to scrap yard and
he
sent photo of it. I was stunned, FULL 1800 SYSTEM.
Next step was find boss who decide what is going to happen that IBM. I
called him and asked how's IBM. Firstly he thought I'm gold digger. After
some talk, he became convinced I'm real deal. Sadly, he told me that IBM
is in
their private museum, and not for sale or not planned
to donate anywhere.
But he invited me to see that IBM. I was little dissapointed, but better
than
nothing I thought.
After couple months, I went to there to see IBM. Boss had changed at that
time, there was new guy. He also understand historical value of that big
iron,
no doubt it. We drove plant where that IBM was. When
I see it, I was
stunned. It was absolute spectacular! It was stood 30 years after service
in
dry and warm warehouse, same place where it installed
early 70's. It have
stood still almost long as I have wander this world! Time was stopped that
room, it looks like we have got back to 80's on time machine. 2311 disk
packs
was left probably just where they are 30 years ago.
Here's pic: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
NnRINlhESk5aNUk&authuser=0
System contains 1801 CPU, 1803 additional core storage unit, 2841 drive
adapter, couple 2311 hard drives, 1826 data adapter, 1443 printer,
terminals,
card readers/punches, etc... It is giant system!
Now comes twist to plot, this new boss suddenly asked: "When you could
make pickup for this IBM?". I'm not that type guy, who can get be quiet
that
easy, but I could just stutter something like "I
can pickup every you
want". :D
So, I was so excited, own IBM 1800, that is just what I have always
wanted,
own mainframe :D (...360 would be even better but this
would do the trick
as
well ;) We have not that much computers back 60's
or 70's. like below 200
at
1970. So you can imagine how rare big iron is here and
it is totally
unlikely you
could find anything this good at Finland these days.
**************
But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only
(wide)
staircase down to street level. So cabinets have to
partly disassemble to
light
those "little" bit.
I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get
it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I
know
what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights
so much these
units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead
poured to structure ;) ?
I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some
good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;)
Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks!
- Johannes ThelenFinland
Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
7 a.m.
Wow!!
Where would you put someting that big?
Document docunment document! draw plans of how it is now and photograph
every thing in situ.
On 21/03/2015 09:08, Dave G4UGM wrote:
1) As its in-place might have been easier to negotiate
rent on location, but
probably too much money for one person.
2) I wonder if it went in through a window. It was common practice to take a
window out and crane the pallets in.
3) If it's a "museum" does any of the documentation remain. There would
usually have been a set of Customer Engineer hardware manuals in a wheeled
trolley. I used to have a photo of these but I can't find it now..
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johannes
Thelen
Sent: 21 March 2015 08:17
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help)
I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning...
I was selling and donating my 80's computer collection away, because I
really
couldn't get anymore kicks of home computers
(gateaway theory is right,
Commodores are step to mainframes ...)
Anyways, I asked every buyer have they seen any thing big, old computers
anywhere here in Finland. One guy gave hint of some truck sized IBM, which
he had seen at his old job. He told it is probably going to scrap yard and
he
sent photo of it. I was stunned, FULL 1800
SYSTEM.
Next step was find boss who decide what is going to happen that IBM. I
called him and asked how's IBM. Firstly he thought I'm gold digger. After
some talk, he became convinced I'm real deal. Sadly, he told me that IBM
is
in
their private museum, and not for sale or not
planned to donate anywhere.
But he invited me to see that IBM. I was little dissapointed, but better
than
nothing I thought.
After couple months, I went to there to see IBM. Boss had changed at that
time, there was new guy. He also understand historical value of that big
iron,
no doubt it. We drove plant where that IBM was.
When I see it, I was
stunned. It was absolute spectacular! It was stood 30 years after service
in
dry and warm warehouse, same place where it
installed early 70's. It have
stood still almost long as I have wander this world! Time was stopped that
room, it looks like we have got back to 80's on time machine. 2311 disk
packs
was left probably just where they are 30 years
ago.
Here's pic: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W-
NnRINlhESk5aNUk&authuser=0
System contains 1801 CPU, 1803 additional core storage unit, 2841 drive
adapter, couple 2311 hard drives, 1826 data adapter, 1443 printer,
terminals,
card readers/punches, etc... It is giant system!
Now comes twist to plot, this new boss suddenly asked: "When you could
make pickup for this IBM?". I'm not that type guy, who can get be quiet
that
easy, but I could just stutter something like
"I can pickup every you
want". :D
So, I was so excited, own IBM 1800, that is just
what I have always
wanted,
own mainframe :D (...360 would be even better but
this would do the trick
as
well ;) We have not that much computers back
60's or 70's. like below 200
at
1970. So you can imagine how rare big iron is
here and it is totally
unlikely you
could find anything this good at Finland these
days.
**************
But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only
(wide)
staircase down to street level. So cabinets have
to partly disassemble to
light
those "little" bit.
I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get
it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I
know
> what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights so much these
> units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead
> poured to structure ;) ?
>
> I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some
> good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;)
>
> Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks!
>
>
> - Johannes ThelenFinland
> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish)
> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/
>
> 
8:32 a.m.
I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get it back
together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I know what is waiting me
there. And by the way, what weights so much these units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power
supplies so heavy or is there lead poured to structure ;) ?
There are very likely lead bars in the bottom rear of the rack, no joke.
12:30 p.m.
On 03/21/2015 03:17 AM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy
or is there lead poured to structure ;) ?
These cabinets are built of HEAVY gauge steel, with a lot of
heavy steel framework inside. They intentionally built them
heavy to withstand rough shipping. The cabinets should
separate fairly easily, just mark the locations where cables
plug into backplanes, etc. Tape up all dangling cables. My
guess is that the individual cabinets won't be all that
heavy, a couple beefy guys should be able to work it down
the stairs safely, but it will be a rough, sweaty job.
Yes, if this has a 50 Hz linear supply, the power supply
WILL be very heavy. It may be possible to remove the power
transformer to lighten that cabinet.
Jon
11:09 p.m.
On 3/21/2015 7:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
My 1800 had to be around a ton. I moved it using a small lift gate truck
that had a 2000 pound rated lift.
It could not lift it. I had to use a jack and blocks to help it up into
the truck. It was hard to even roll it around
the floor with two people.
I have many SLT card spares for mine, probably a few thousand or so. I
don't think they are very hard to find.
Al scanned all of my paper docs awhile back. I believe the ALD's were
part of that. I can check to see what I have
if needed, I still have all of the paper.
Bob
--
Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in it.
I've been practising it for years.
-Prince Philip
My guess is
that the individual cabinets won't be all that heavy, a
couple beefy guys should be able to work it down the stairs safely, but it
will be a rough, sweaty job.
I doubt that - 1800s are built to the S/360 specs.
907 kg for a two
rack system sounds reasonable.
--
Will
1:42 p.m.
On 03/21/2015 03:17 AM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy
or is there lead poured to structure ;) ?
I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some good
advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;)
Note the CPU needs 3-phase power, and a lot of it. Just the
CPU is supposed to be 3 KW, although that power
input may feed a number of other units. I can't believe the
907 kg weight, it just DOES NOT make sense!
Looking at some detailed pictures of the system with the
doors open, I'd easily believe 200 or maybe even
250 kg for the CPU alone. It does have 50-Hz transformer
power supplies, so that would make it heavier than the 360's
with their converter-inverter and 2500 Hz transformer
supplies. But, 3 KW worth of 50 Hz transformer is not going
to weigh a TON! So, I'm really suspicious of that figure in
the manual. I can easily believe that whole system does
weigh a ton, however.
Well, I watched ONE GUY push a 360/65 CPU cabinet up a
ramp. He was a BIG guy, but there's no way that thing
weighs almost 2 tons. So, something is way wrong with ALL
these weights. I can't figure out why they do this,
however. Maybe they were hysterically afraid idiots would
under-specify the raised floors, so they put a HUGE safety
margin in there.
Jon
2:39 p.m.
I remember running into a fellow who got his 1130 programming experience
through an education program by Standard Oil of Indiana offering access
to their 1800 system to participating high school students.
Such behavior would scare the pants off of any corporate IT security VP
nowadays.
Did any company offer a similar program employing the 1710?
--Chuck
3:52 p.m.
I can't believe the 907 kg weight, it just DOES
NOT make sense!
It makes perfect sense, when you consider that the original spec
was NOT metric.
If somebody said, "It weighs a ton! (figuratively), OR
it was something between 1000 pounds and 3000 pounds,
and ROUNDED to "a ton",
then automated unit conversion, or some idiot that doesn't understand the
error of adding significant digits to a less significant number, . . .
results in 907 Kg
I'm surprised that they didn't tell you that it weighed 907.18 Kg.
So, figure 1000 Kg, plus or minus 400
10:27 p.m.
Oh yeah - SEND MORE PICS.
I have a complete? set of FE microfiche for an 1800, and if Al wants
it, he ought to speak up. I think they contain the ALDs and
maintenance stuff, but I am not sure. I do not have the ALDs in paper
form, I know that.
--
Will
3410
days inactive
3411
days old
13 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
bobalan＠sbcglobal.net -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
drlegendre＠gmail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
johannesthelen＠hotmail.com -
lawrence＠ljw.me.uk -
rodsmallwood52＠btinternet.com -
roeapeterson＠gmail.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com