13 Jan
2005
13 Jan
'05
7:20 a.m.
From: "Vintage Computer Festival"
<vcf(a)siconic.com>
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Paul Koning wrote:
I don't suppose anyone ever manufactured a laser-based paper tape punch?
Is that even feasible?
Hi
Sure, it could be done. The only reason it hasn't
been done was that the medium was obsolete by the
time the LASERs were ready.
I used to have fun with a 20W CO2 LASER. I could
control it well enough to remove 6 or 7 layers of
paper. Each time I'd cut a little deeper. It would
make a pop sound and some of the paper would just
be disappear :)
Dwight
>>>> "William" == William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> writes:
William> .... Some of the things were
William> pretty cool - a 400 cps (!) paper tape punch, ...
Wow. I've love to see one of those. The fastest I have seen was, I
think, a 120 cps punch. Listening to one of those running at full
speed is pretty impressive.
Paper tape readers can go much faster (I've seen 2000 cps) but those
are optical readers, so the job is far easier. 
13 Jan
13 Jan
8:34 a.m.
On Jan 13, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Dwight K. Elvey wrote:
OOH A new kind of media: clear mylar tape with a thin layer of paper on
one side
(black paper for enhanced absorption ) 16 bit wide? 32 bit wide?
How would mylar and paper be for longevity. How are our oldest paper
tapes doing?
I don't suppose anyone ever manufactured a laser-based paper tape
punch?
Is that even feasible?
Hi
Sure, it could be done. The only reason it hasn't
been done was that the medium was obsolete by the
time the LASERs were ready.
I used to have fun with a 20W CO2 LASER. I could
control it well enough to remove 6 or 7 layers of
paper. Each time I'd cut a little deeper. It would
make a pop sound and some of the paper would just
be disappear :)
Dwight
11:19 a.m.
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Ron Hudson wrote:
>> I don't suppose anyone ever manufactured a
laser-based paper tape punch?
>> Is that even feasible?
OOH A new kind of media: clear mylar tape with a thin
layer of paper on one
side
(black paper for enhanced absorption ) 16 bit wide? 32 bit wide?
How would mylar and paper be for longevity. How are our oldest paper tapes
doing?
Oh, now this thread I like!
Paper and mylar longevity is very good. Good old fiche has a
projected 500 year life. Paper can last a long time but machine
handling criteria is different than for books.
A thin mylar strip, say standard 1" wide, with an optical reader
you wouldn't need to make holes, only dark spots.
Use a laser whose output the tape isn't transparent to; a "1" is a
heat-distorted/discolored spot. A smaller spot for the "sprocket"
hole/index.
The smaller sprocket hole provides sufficient lead on a
read-strobe pulse inherently on paper tape, same would go for
this.
Write speed would be limited by energy put onto the tape and fast
enough to avoid blurring the spot due to motion.
11:32 a.m.
Tom Jennings wrote:
Oh, now this thread I like!
Paper and mylar longevity is very good. Good old fiche has a
projected 500 year life. Paper can last a long time but machine
handling criteria is different than for books.
A thin mylar strip, say standard 1" wide, with an optical reader
you wouldn't need to make holes, only dark spots.
Use a laser whose output the tape isn't transparent to; a "1" is a
heat-distorted/discolored spot. A smaller spot for the "sprocket"
hole/index.
And make it a little thicker, let it rotate a little,
and you got a CD ;-)
1:55 p.m.
At 04:19 PM 1/13/2005, Tom Jennings wrote:
Use a laser whose output the tape isn't transparent
to; a "1" is a
heat-distorted/discolored spot. A smaller spot for the "sprocket"
hole/index.
Yes, reflectance rather than mechano-optical hole-or-not
would be much faster. Like a CD, but flexible, on a spool.
Much great surface area than a 34 mm radius band on a 120 mm disc.
- John
2:35 p.m.
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, John Foust wrote:
At 04:19 PM 1/13/2005, Tom Jennings wrote:
So... what's the chance of doing this with a solid-state laser?
Say 9 of them? The idea of high-speed papertape (sic) thrills me.
I know I'm sick, but I don't want to stop.
Use a laser whose output the tape isn't
transparent to; a "1" is a
heat-distorted/discolored spot. A smaller spot for the "sprocket"
hole/index.
Yes, reflectance rather than mechano-optical hole-or-not
would be much faster. Like a CD, but flexible, on a spool.
Much great surface area than a 34 mm radius band on a 120 mm disc.
14 Jan
14 Jan
2:18 a.m.
At 07:35 PM 1/13/2005, Tom Jennings wrote:
So... what's the chance of doing this with a
solid-state laser?
Say 9 of them? The idea of high-speed papertape (sic) thrills me.
I know I'm sick, but I don't want to stop.
Why stop at nine? Optical scanning of a tape via linear CCD
or video chip or reflected laser must be scads faster than
mechanical methods (from pins in holes, to helical scan mag tape).
But why limit yourself to perpendicular rows? Sounds like what
you want is a dense 2D barcode, like the UPS and USPS codes,
but somehow sequential, flowing, 2 1/2 D.
The hard part is picking the medium, I'd think. You want something
that'll do a fast detectable change that'll keep over time,
burnable by a power-enough laser. They speak of mylar tape,
but my TTY stuff is so old I've never seen it. Will it detectably
deform if you heat it?
I've loved brainstorming about these sorts of barcoding schemes.
It seems to me that it's a big missing hole in the convergence
that everyone's always talking about. There's few super-easy ways
to move a URL from print automagically into a computer, and RFID
seems almost clunky compared to burning microscopic bar codes all
over the surface of objects.
- John
10:56 a.m.
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, John Foust wrote:
Well, I have a particular project in mind for that but I agree
with you -- why stop there?
So...
what's the chance of doing this with a solid-state laser?
Say 9 of them? The idea of high-speed papertape (sic) thrills me.
I know I'm sick, but I don't want to stop.
Why stop at nine? Optical scanning of a tape via linear CCD
or video chip or reflected laser must be scads faster than
mechanical methods (from pins in holes, to helical scan mag tape). But why limit yourself to perpendicular rows? Sounds
like what
you want is a dense 2D barcode, like the UPS and USPS codes,
but somehow sequential, flowing, 2 1/2 D.
Well.. I simply hadn't considered anything else! But an N x M
array reading the tape, could do high density with redundancy and
correction, and make finding the edges of pits easy.
The hard part is picking the medium, I'd think.
You want something
that'll do a fast detectable change that'll keep over time,
burnable by a power-enough laser. They speak of mylar tape,
but my TTY stuff is so old I've never seen it. Will it detectably
deform if you heat it?
I was thinking more generically here, 'thin mylar tape' from other
industries, but whatever.
I've loved brainstorming about these sorts of
barcoding schemes.
It seems to me that it's a big missing hole in the convergence
that everyone's always talking about. There's few super-easy ways
to move a URL from print automagically into a computer, and RFID
seems almost clunky compared to burning microscopic bar codes all
over the surface of objects.
Well my crazy project could in fact use something higher density than
old style!
13 Jan
13 Jan
4:32 p.m.
A thin mylar strip, say standard 1" wide, with an
optical reader
you wouldn't need to make holes, only dark spots.
Use a laser whose output the tape isn't transparent to; a "1" is a
heat-distorted/discolored spot. A smaller spot for the "sprocket"
hole/index.
Its been done. The amount of information on a tape was impressive, even by
todays standard, but the syste, went nowhere. I don't even recall the name
of the company.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
4:40 p.m.
> A thin mylar strip, say standard 1" wide,
with an optical reader
> you wouldn't need to make holes, only dark spots.
> Use a laser whose output the tape isn't transparent to; a "1" is a
> heat-distorted/discolored spot. A smaller spot for the "sprocket"
> hole/index.
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, William Donzelli wrote:
Its been done. The amount of information on a tape was
impressive, even by
todays standard, but the syste, went nowhere. I don't even recall the name
of the company.
How about Emanuel Goldberg's "Rapid Selector"?
Or Vannevar Bush's Memex that was based on it
(photocells with bits stored on photographic film)
17 Jan
17 Jan
3:10 a.m.
Ron Hudson wrote:
OOH A new kind of media: clear mylar tape with a thin
layer of paper on
one side
(black paper for enhanced absorption ) 16 bit wide? 32 bit wide?
How would mylar and paper be for longevity. How are our oldest paper
tapes doing?
I found a bit of paper tape the other day, lying beside the path near
the block of flats where I live. It was pretty much wet through,
otherwise I would have picked it up. Maybe I should have anyway. It
was only about 18" long with torn ends, probably not enough to work out
what it was originally.
Gordon.
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11 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
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aw288＠osfn.org -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dwight.elvey＠amd.com -
emu＠ecubics.com -
gordon＠gjcp.net -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
ron.hudson＠sbcglobal.net -
tomj＠wps.com