16 Oct
2002
16 Oct
'02
3:15 a.m.
OK, this is a long shot but with this group, you never know.
I'd like to try to identify the first computer I saw "in the flesh"
so to speak. This would have been 1965 or 1966 and it was at Keele
University (in the UK).
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I would find this out? I've
already tried sending e-mail to the computer centre at Keele a few years
ago but didn't get very far.
Whatever computer it is has a lot to answer for!
Yes, I'm getting old but I was 10 or 11 at the time....
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
16 Oct
16 Oct
6:33 a.m.
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
I'd like to try to identify the first computer I
saw "in the flesh"
so to speak. This would have been 1965 or 1966 and it was at Keele
University (in the UK).
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I would find this out? I've
already tried sending e-mail to the computer centre at Keele a few years
ago but didn't get very far.
Give us some physical descriptions and anything else you can remember. If
anyone can figure out what it was it will be us here.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
8:31 a.m.
At 04:34 AM 16/10/2002 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
Geez. I can hardly remember what a DECsystem-10 looks like and I've got
photos! Half of Australia's red wine production over the last 10 years has
passed through my house (and me :-) so the long term memory has been
replaced with tannins....
All I can remember is a largish (blue?) slightly circular console (say 4 to
6 feet long) with switches and lights (no CRTs) and possibly a separate
room filled with valves. This would make some sense for a system installed
in the early to mid-60s.
OK super classic computer sleuths, any suggestions? My guess is that the
system is likely to be of UK origin but....
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
I'd like to try to identify the first
computer I saw "in the flesh"
so to speak. This would have been 1965 or 1966 and it was at Keele
University (in the UK).
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I would find this out? I've
already tried sending e-mail to the computer centre at Keele a few years
ago but didn't get very far.
Give us some physical descriptions and anything else you can remember. If
anyone can figure out what it was it will be us here.
10:23 a.m.
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
Geez. I can hardly remember what a DECsystem-10 looks
like and I've got
photos! Half of Australia's red wine production over the last 10 years has
passed through my house (and me :-) so the long term memory has been
replaced with tannins....
Your memory may go but all the anti-oxidants in the wine will keep your
heart pumping blood to your empty brain, pulsating with faded glimpses of
past glory ;)
All I can remember is a largish (blue?) slightly
circular console (say 4 to
6 feet long) with switches and lights (no CRTs) and possibly a separate
room filled with valves. This would make some sense for a system installed
in the early to mid-60s.
My first guess: a PDP-1.
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-dec-pdp-1.jpg
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
17 Oct
17 Oct
4:11 a.m.
At 08:24 AM 16/10/2002 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
No, definitely not a PDP-1. The console is too small.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
That's probably OK then.
Geez. I can hardly remember what a DECsystem-10
looks like and I've got
photos! Half of Australia's red wine production over the last 10 years has
passed through my house (and me :-) so the long term memory has been
replaced with tannins....
Your memory may go but all the anti-oxidants in the wine will keep your
heart pumping blood to your empty brain, pulsating with faded glimpses of
past glory ;) All I can
remember is a largish (blue?) slightly circular console (say 4 to
6 feet long) with switches and lights (no CRTs) and possibly a separate
room filled with valves. This would make some sense for a system installed
in the early to mid-60s.
My first guess: a PDP-1.
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-dec-pdp-1.jpg
11:05 a.m.
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
No, definitely not a PDP-1. The console is too small.
Ok, I misunderstood what you meant by "circular console". Obviously the
PDP-1 would be disqualified as a candidate since you said "no CRTs".
Do you mean the main chassis had rounded corners? Could it perhaps have
been a Packard Bell?
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-0740.jpg
http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/pb250.jpg
That is a picture of a Packard Bell PB250. Here is more info:
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-p.html#PACKARD-BELL-250
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
All I can remember is a largish (blue?) slightly
circular console (say 4 to
6 feet long) with switches and lights (no CRTs) and possibly a separate
room filled with valves. This would make some sense for a system installed
in the early to mid-60s.
My first guess: a PDP-1.
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-dec-pdp-1.jpg 
3:24 p.m.
[Sorry, no context because I deleted the original message!]
Huw,
You might be able to find someone else who remembers the system by
joining the Friends Reunited website at
http://www.friendsreunited.co.uk. It's free to sign up, so all you have
to do is associate yourself with Keele University and then post a
message on the message board asking if anyone else remembers the
machine. It costs ?5 a year to be able to email other people, but I
think the message boards are free. There are currently over 90 people
registered for Keele in the 1960s.
- Paul
18 Oct
18 Oct
2:31 a.m.
At 09:06 AM 17/10/2002 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Do you mean the main chassis had rounded corners?
Could it perhaps have
been a Packard Bell?
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-0740.jpg
http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/pb250.jpg
That is a picture of a Packard Bell PB250. Here is more info:
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-p.html#PACKARD-BELL-250
Well we can eliminate these as well (progress for sure). What I was trying
to get at (and obviously explaining badly :-) was that the main console for
the system was a large desk like affair with lights and switches with
either end being either curved or in a curved shape. Using (poor) ASCII art:
----------------------------
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
As I said, I'm not sure if it had "hard" corners or whether they were
rounded off somewhat.
I've spent quite some time web browsing and the photos of early Ferranti,
Marconi or ICT (ICL) that I've found don't match my recollections. I'm
still working on the premise that at that time a UK university would have
bought British (and at that time there was probably no good reason not to).
For an interesting history of British early Computers have a look at
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/EarlyBritish.html#TOC
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
5:23 a.m.
On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
I've spent quite some time web browsing and the
photos of early Ferranti,
Marconi or ICT (ICL) that I've found don't match my recollections. I'm
still working on the premise that at that time a UK university would have
bought British (and at that time there was probably no good reason not to).
It wasn't a Lyons' LEO, was it? http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/
-brian.
9:20 a.m.
At 03:23 AM 18/10/2002 -0700, Brian Chase wrote:
On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
Well the photographs of the console could match with a slightly faulty
memory. I've had a look at the list of LEO sites and Keele doesn't appear -
what's scary are the number of sites here in Melbourne (Australia)! At this
stage a LEO would have to be a "possible" but somewhat unlikely choice. I
would have thought that a University would buy a "scientific" rather than a
"commercial" computer.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
I've spent quite some time web browsing and
the photos of early Ferranti,
Marconi or ICT (ICL) that I've found don't match my recollections. I'm
still working on the premise that at that time a UK university would have
bought British (and at that time there was probably no good reason not to).
It wasn't a Lyons' LEO, was it? http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/ 
8:48 a.m.
Well we can eliminate these as well (progress for
sure). What I
was trying
to get at (and obviously explaining badly :-) was that the main
console for
the system was a large desk like affair with lights and switches with
either end being either curved or in a curved shape. Using (poor)
ASCII art:
----------------------------
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
As I said, I'm not sure if it had "hard" corners or whether they were
rounded off somewhat.
Ah, see the picture on http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/zebra/ about the
Stantec Zebra ... does this help?
Andy
9:28 a.m.
At 02:47 PM 18/10/2002 +0100, Andy Holt wrote:
Ah, see the picture on
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/zebra/ about the
Stantec Zebra ... does this help?
Getting closer! This is the style of console I was trying to get at with my
ASCII art. The console is taller than my recollections, but this might just
be old age. Still, I haven't found any matches when searching for Keele and
Zebra.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
11:24 a.m.
Huw Davies wrote:
At 02:47 PM 18/10/2002 +0100, Andy Holt wrote:
When did GEC starting making computers? I know that they had a plant in
Stafford, and North Staffs Poly had a blue GEC 4000-series machine when
I was there (a lot later than the 60s!)
- Paul
Ah, see the picture on
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/zebra/
about the Stantec Zebra ... does this
help?
Getting closer! This is the style of console I was trying to get at
with my ASCII art. The console is taller than my recollections, but
this might just be old age. Still, I haven't found any matches when
searching for Keele and Zebra.
11:59 a.m.
When did GEC starting making computers? I know that
they had a plant in
Stafford, and North Staffs Poly had a blue GEC 4000-series machine when
I was there (a lot later than the 60s!)
- Paul
GEC - in this context - took over the process-control computer part of
Elliot Automation.
EA's first computer was in (?)1949.
The 4000 series computers were a good "real-time" system for their era (but
the "Buy British" government policy applied by the Computer Board tried to
force these into environments where Unix or VMS systems would have been more
appropriate*.)
* At a UK University (that those who know me can recognise) we had a massive
fight to be able to go "Open Tender" on the replacement of an ICL 1900
series system rather than go single tender for an ICL 2960. The first hurdle
was overcome at a high-powered meeting in Euston Towers (ICLs then HQ) where
our team met with senior Computer Board members and some of the toughest ICL
salesmen ... we knew we had won this battle when the salesmen stopped trying
to convince us that the 2960 would do the job and started on "look at the
costs of conversion".
The next hurdle came when we were told that there had to be a UK company on
the shortlist (by this time ICL had declined to tender on the grounds "we've
never yet won an open tender and don't see the point of wasting our time").
The only practical UK offer was from GEC so this joined Honeywell, DEC and
Prime on the shortlist. We detailed one member of our staff to find out (and
point-out) every problem with the GEC so that we could eventually rule them
out.
For some silly reason (probably connected with their salesmen not being paid
commission) DEC really did not try - effectively they gave us a copy of the
price book and said "work it out yourself". Honeywell and Prime, however,
really did compete. HW eventually offering ?2M worth of kit for ?400K and
this did us very well for a few years (until we could buy a more powerful
system for less than the maint. cost of the HW). We got a reputation in
Honeywell for wanting "everything half price - and if it's free we want two
of them"
Andy
10:25 a.m.
The Leo III control desk had some interesting shapes, but I don't think
it's what your talking about either.
On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
At 09:06 AM 17/10/2002 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
Shady Lea, Rhode Island
"Casta est quam nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
Do you mean the main chassis had rounded corners?
Could it perhaps have
been a Packard Bell?
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-0740.jpg
http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/pb250.jpg
That is a picture of a Packard Bell PB250. Here is more info:
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-p.html#PACKARD-BELL-250
Well we can eliminate these as well (progress for sure). What I was trying
to get at (and obviously explaining badly :-) was that the main console for
the system was a large desk like affair with lights and switches with
either end being either curved or in a curved shape. Using (poor) ASCII art:
----------------------------
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
As I said, I'm not sure if it had "hard" corners or whether they were
rounded off somewhat.
I've spent quite some time web browsing and the photos of early Ferranti,
Marconi or ICT (ICL) that I've found don't match my recollections. I'm
still working on the premise that at that time a UK university would have
bought British (and at that time there was probably no good reason not to).
For an interesting history of British early Computers have a look at
http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/EarlyBritish.html#TOC
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
23 Oct
23 Oct
7:59 a.m.
At 05:37 PM 18/10/2002 +1000, Huw Davies wrote:
I've spent quite some time web browsing and the
photos of early Ferranti,
Marconi or ICT (ICL) that I've found don't match my recollections. I'm
still working on the premise that at that time a UK university would have
bought British (and at that time there was probably no good reason not to).
OK, well I finally decided to ask my father who was a lecturer in the
Physics department at Keele at the time (which explains why I got
the guided tour there). He could clearly remember that the computer
belonged to the Chemistry department and with a bit of prompting
he was reasonably sure that it was a Ferranti rather than an
English Electric given that he knew people in both organizations.
When I suggested it could be a Mercury he commented well it was
something like that.
I guess unless someone can come up with better evidence then
I'm going to conclude that the computer was a Ferranti Mercury
and that my recollections of the console are not quite reliable :-)
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
16 Oct
16 Oct
7:49 a.m.
I'd like to try to identify the first computer I
saw "in the flesh"...
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I would find this out?
Try to write a thousand word essay. How big was it? What parts did
you see, Did you use cards, printouts or a CRT? If you don't remember
anything then we could pick any random computer and say it was it <g>.
If you do, start writing it down so other people can identify it.
I found my firster, a Minivac601, starting where all I really remembered
was that it was small and that it had a spinning bit.
John A.
7:56 a.m.
I found my firster, a Minivac601, starting where all I
really remembered
was that it was small and that it had a spinning bit.
I feel so young. The first computer I ever saw was a TI 99/4A. I was six
(it was 1982 IIRC).
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. -------
8:41 a.m.
At 06:06 AM 16/10/2002 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
You youngsters should just stay in your playpens for a decade or so, so
that you can turn into grumpy old computer programmers/collectors like the
rest of us :-)
On a serious note, it's good to see younger people interested in the
history of computing...
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
I found my
firster, a Minivac601, starting where all I really remembered
was that it was small and that it had a spinning bit.
I feel so young. The first computer I ever saw was a TI 99/4A. I was six
(it was 1982 IIRC).
9:05 a.m.
I found my firster, a Minivac601, starting where all I
really remembered
was that it was small and that it had a spinning bit.
I feel so young. The first computer I ever saw was a TI 99/4A. I was six
(it was 1982 IIRC). 
9:24 a.m.
On Wednesday, October 16, 2002, Huw Davies wrote:
You youngsters should just stay in your playpens for a
decade or so, so
that you can turn into grumpy old computer programmers/collectors like the
rest of us :-)
Ahem.
grumpy old computer programmers/collectors
\____/ \__________/ \_________/ \________/
| | | |
| | | \__ I do that.
| | \__ I do that.
| \__ Got some of those.
\__ Hell yeah.
Oh, I get it: You want us to wait for a decade so that you can have all the
nice machines that turn up between now and then! :-)
--
Jeffrey Sharp
17 Oct
17 Oct
1:30 a.m.
At 09:20 AM 16/10/2002 -0500, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
Oh, I get it: You want us to wait for a decade so that
you can have all the
nice machines that turn up between now and then! :-)
Well maybe. I have most of the collectable computers I want with the
possible exception of a Pascal Microengine and an original PDP-8. I can
fantasize about a KS-10 or a XKL Toad-10 but I don't have space or power or
airconditioning for the former or the money for the latter.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
16 Oct
16 Oct
8:38 a.m.
At 08:50 AM 16/10/2002 -0400, John Allain wrote:
OK, in addition to the e-mail I just sent out a few barrels of fine port
have also disappeared over the years so my memory is not what it used to be
:-) In reality, a major motorcycle accident when I was younger is the real
culprit but that's another story....
There was definitely a printer. As part of the tour, we took part in a
simple reaction test. There was a bulb that came on and we had to move a
very nice metal polished switch from on to off (or vice versa) and we got a
printout of the reaction time. From memory, mine was 1.2 seconds and I
recall my parents saying that I was so slow because I'd been up late the
night before. Given that in later life I had a reputation of catching fast
moving cricket balls at little or no notice (I hate fielding more than 3m
I'd like
to try to identify the first computer I saw "in the flesh"...
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I would find this out?
Try to write a thousand word essay. How big was it? What parts did
you see, Did you use cards, printouts or a CRT? If you don't remember
anything then we could pick any random computer and say it was it <g>.
If you do, start writing it down so other people can identify it. from the bat) maybe it was just a late night (or awe of
the computer).
I'm fairly sure the main console was sky blue, polished metal switches and
white lights with small round covers and metal bezels. I don't recall
seeing drums/disks/tape readers/punches but they must have had some, if not
all, of these.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
7:58 a.m.
New subject: Atari Arcade Basketball board
available: Atari Arcade Basketball ('79) board.
This board is about 11"x17" and has about 75 chips.
There are a few empty sockets but they may have been for
expansion.
I've heard people on the list say that old tech chips are getting
hard to find Available to the list or it gets tossed in one week.
John A.
10:17 a.m.
New subject: Atari Arcade Basketball board
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, John Allain wrote:
available: Atari Arcade Basketball ('79) board.
This board is about 11"x17" and has about 75 chips.
There are a few empty sockets but they may have been for
expansion.
I've heard people on the list say that old tech chips are getting
hard to find Available to the list or it gets tossed in one week.
You should pitch this at the rec.videogame.retro (something like that)
newsgroups. Folks there will most likely pay you good money for it.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
1:42 p.m.
New subject: Atari Arcade Basketball board
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, John Allain wrote:
I think rec.games.video.arcade.collecting and
rec.games.video.arcade.marketplace would probably be the best places to
list this item. Of course, there are also some video game collectors on
the list here too.
-Toth
available: Atari Arcade Basketball ('79)
board.
This board is about 11"x17" and has about 75 chips. There are a few
empty sockets but they may have been for expansion.
I've heard people on the list say that old tech chips are getting hard
to find Available to the list or it gets tossed in one week.
You should pitch this at the rec.videogame.retro (something like that)
newsgroups. Folks there will most likely pay you good money for it. 
8:09 p.m.
New subject: Atari Arcade Basketball board
A better venue would be on Yahoo Groups, the BWarcade group which
specifically deals in the older Black & White arcade games, I used to own an
Atari Basketball, it was very fun game to play. It translated very well on
the Atari 800 platform into color.
Curt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tothwolf" <tothwolf(a)concentric.net>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: Atari Arcade Basketball board
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, John Allain wrote:
I think rec.games.video.arcade.collecting and
rec.games.video.arcade.marketplace would probably be the best places to
list this item. Of course, there are also some video game collectors on
the list here too.
-Toth
available: Atari Arcade Basketball ('79)
board.
This board is about 11"x17" and has about 75 chips. There are a few
empty sockets but they may have been for expansion.
I've heard people on the list say that old tech chips are getting hard
to find Available to the list or it gets tossed in one week.
You should pitch this at the rec.videogame.retro (something like that)
newsgroups. Folks there will most likely pay you good money for it.
9:29 a.m.
Information on the Manchester site suggests that the first computing Keele
had was a link to the 1905F in Manchester ... but this is later than the
date you note.
In the (late) 1960s UK Universities almost all had one of
ICT (ICL) 1900 series (the majority)
or 4100 series (I have a vague recollection that Keele was in this group)
and a few System 4 (IBM 360 clone) (most of the SW Universities had this)
There were still the Atlas & Atlas 2 computers in place in
London, Manchester, & Cambridge (& Rutherford labs)
Some KDF9s were still around including, I think, Oxford & Leeds. Possible a
Pegasus or two.
A few had managed to beat the "buy British" policy thus
CDC6600 at ULCC
IBM 360/65 at UCL
IBM 360/67 (NUMAC) at Newcastle
IBM 7094 at IC
There were some PDP10s - but mainly owned by well-funded departments rather
than the central university - and other PDPs
When I started work at City University a couple of years later the complete
list of digital computers in the University was approximately
1 ICT 1905 (32K 24 bit word core, 3x4 Megacharacter (6-bit) disk drives)
1 EAL 690 Hybrid computer (the digital part - EAI 640 - was similar to an
IBM 1130)
1 PDP 11/20 (in computer science)
1 or 2 Marconi process-control-type systems in automation engineering.
That was all (the Pegasus had been dismantled a couple of years earlier).
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of Huw Davies
Sent: 16 October 2002 09:20
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Classic Computer Question
OK, this is a long shot but with this group, you never know.
I'd like to try to identify the first computer I saw "in the flesh"
so to speak. This would have been 1965 or 1966 and it was at Keele
University (in the UK).
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I would find this out? I've
already tried sending e-mail to the computer centre at Keele a few years
ago but didn't get very far.
Whatever computer it is has a lot to answer for!
Yes, I'm getting old but I was 10 or 11 at the time....
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
8113
days inactive
8120
days old
27 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
allain＠panix.com -
andyh＠andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk -
at258＠osfn.org -
celigne＠celigne.freeserve.co.uk -
curt＠atari-history.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
Huw.Davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au -
jss＠subatomix.com -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
tothwolf＠concentric.net -
vaxzilla＠jarai.org