4 Jan
2015
4 Jan
'15
2:03 p.m.
From: Chuck Guzis
I suspect that other languages have similar exercises,
though
I don't know what the Japanese do in Kanji.
Err, think you mean kana, right? (Kanji are the ideograms, there are over a
thousand in common use.) There is something called the 'iroha':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha
which is a poem which uses every element of the Japanese syllabary - and
exactly once! It was used to teach writing, no idea if it's used for the
keyboard thingy.
Noel
4 Jan
4 Jan
2:33 p.m.
On 01/04/2015 02:03 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
No, having set up katakana keyboards and typefaces in the path, I do
mean kanji. I still have some work from back in the day from Fujitsu (I
think), where the operator keys in the proper component strokes and the
Wapro comes back with suggestions of ideograms and the operator selects
one. I was just wondering what a typing exercise involving, say, only
joyo kanji would look like...
--Chuck
From: Chuck
Guzis
I suspect that other languages have similar
exercises, though
I don't know what the Japanese do in Kanji.
Err, think you mean kana, right? (Kanji are the ideograms, there are over a
thousand in common use.) There is something called the 'iroha': 
5 Jan
5 Jan
5:22 p.m.
From: Noel Chiappa
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 2:04 PM
From: Chuck Guzis
> I suspect that other languages have similar
exercises, though
> I don't know what the Japanese do in Kanji.
Err, think you mean kana, right? (Kanji are the
ideograms, there are over a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
thousand in common use.) ...
No, they are not. Kanji are *LOGOgrams*, expressing *words*, not *ideas*.
(In fact, in Japanese they can express more than one word, given whether
they are read as Japanese or one of several different Chinese pronunciations,
of which kanon[1] and goon[2] are most common.)
... There is something called the 'iroha':
which is a poem which uses every element of the
Japanese syllabary - and
exactly once! It was used to teach writing, no idea if it's used for the
keyboard thingy.
A fellow graduate student in linguistics, a young lady from Japan, told me
35+ years ago that this poem was no longer used in schools, and that kana
were taught with reference to a grid layout. She also characterized it as
not very good poetry.
Rich
[1] "Han pronunciation", where orthographic <h> represents a velar
fricative
like the German ach-laut
[2] "Wu pronunciation", where the reconstructed Middle Chinese pronunciation
of the character read as "wu" in Mandarin is [gwou] or [gwou?].
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
6 Jan
6 Jan
9:09 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) (Kanji)
On Jan 5, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Rich Alderson <RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org>
wrote:
No, they are not. Kanji are *LOGOgrams*, expressing
*words*, not *ideas*.
(In fact, in Japanese they can express more than one word, given whether
they are read as Japanese or one of several different Chinese pronunciations,
of which kanon[1] and goon[2] are most common.)
That is a pretty interesting statement. There are many words in Japanese which are written
as a combination of two or more kanji (possibly plus word endings, written out in
hiragana). That to me fits a lot better with the description ?ideogram? than ?logogram?
(based on the etymology of both descriptions). ?Ideogram? is also the description I have
heard most often (by far).
How does the ?logogram? description deal with combinations of kanji?
- Mark
12:11 p.m.
New subject: Weekly Classic Computer Trivia Question (20150105) (Kanji)
From: Tapley, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 9:09 AM
On Jan 5, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Rich Alderson <RichA at
LivingComputerMuseum.org>> wrote:
> No, they are not. Kanji are *LOGOgrams*,
expressing *words*, not *ideas*.
> (In fact, in Japanese they can express more than one word, given whether
> they are read as Japanese or one of several different Chinese pronunciations,
> of which kanon[1] and goon[2] are most common.)
That is a pretty interesting statement. There are many
words in Japanese
which are written as a combination of two or more kanji (possibly plus word
endings, written out in hiragana). That to me fits a lot better with the
description "ideogram" than "logogram" (based on the etymology of
both
descriptions). "Ideogram" is also the description I have heard most often
(by far).
How does the "logogram" description deal
with combinations of kanji?
When multiple kanji are used to write a Japanese word, they are often used not
for their meanings but for their sounds. Even when used for their meanings,
it is specific word meanings, not some numinous "idea", which are in play.
The notion of "ideograms" goes back to mediaeval and Renaissance misunderstand-
ings of Egyptian hieroglyphic writing, of which monumental examples such as
"Cleopatra's needles" existed in Rome. The pictures of birds, mammals,
serpents, etc. were taken as literal, and were supposed to put an image into
the mind of the viewer such that the intended meaning should become clear.
Even after the decipherment of Egyptian by Champollion, the same notion was
still applied to the Chinese writing system and its descendants by a Western
misunderstanding of its structure ("radical" + "phonetic", where the
radical
can, if forced, be viewed as ideogramatic, though that's not correct, either).
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
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