14 Jun
2010
14 Jun
'10
11:16 a.m.
Nigel Williams <nigel.d.williams at gmail.com> wrote:
The basic formatting of a disk is the same for all. In fact, with SCSI,
you just send a command to the disk itself, asking it to format itself.
So there can't be any differences on that level.
If the RQZX1 is doing some tricks, it will have to be that it hides some
blocks for it's own use, and put data there that it "needs".
Those will be normal disk blocks, and another controller will see them
as just simple data blocks in that case.
However, I should stress that I do not know if the RQZX1 really does
this or not. I know that the CMD controllers do not. I've written disks
on a Unix machine, and moved them over to a PDP-11 without problems.
But I have not tried this with the RQZX1, so I don't know if anything is
different with that controller.
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:22 AM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
No problem, and the questions so far have not been simple or obvious, so
I think it's actually good questions, which also others might benifit from.
And just as you ask, you'll probably suddenly realize that you're
answering some too...
> All right. Time to clear up some
misconceptions, I see... :-)
Thank you (and Jerome/Zane) for taking the time to explain and
educate, I hope I am learning quickly. > Nigel
Williams <nigel.d.williams at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ie, if the RQZX1 is putting some special information on the disk during the
> formatting, you cannot then take the drive to some other system and connect
> and use it there expecting things to not become messed up.
fair point - I sort of hoped any underlying format changes would be
invisible to UNIX's stream-of-blocks(characters) view of the world. I have a plan B - if I can find a way to convert the
.TAP file and
then "dd" onto a DDS tape I can try booting that by attaching a TZL09
to the RQZX1.
Should be doable.
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Nigel Williams
<nigel.d.williams at gmail.com> wrote:
Hum? I thought it could. However, you might need to move jumpers around
to allow for that.
This also made me realize that maybe you have your controller configured
in a specific way that explains a thing or two for me.
The RQZX1 can be configured as disk-tape or disk-disk. In the disk-disk
case, one of the disks will use SCSI units 0-3, while the other will use
units 4-6. That would totally explain why your SCSI id 4 maps to MSCP
lun 0. You're on the "second" disk controller. And that also explains
why you cannot use any tapes.
As I said before, I don't have a RQZX1 manual anywhere near, so I can't
help with the configuration here, but I suspect you might want to look
more at this.
> I have a plan B - if I can find a way to
convert the .TAP file and
> then "dd" onto a DDS tape I can try booting that by attaching a TZL09
> to the RQZX1.
Crash goes that plan...the RQZX1 does not allow mixed devices on the
SCSI side, so no tape and disk together. Does anyone know what interface the RQZX1 has for
tape? it looks like
it could accept a TK70 cable.
Just SCSI as far as I know. The only other connection is for a floppy,
unless I remember wrong.
Johnny
14 Jun
14 Jun
10:35 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 4:16 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
The RQZX1 can be configured as disk-tape or disk-disk.
In the disk-disk
case, one of the disks will use SCSI units 0-3, while the other will use
units 4-6. That would totally explain why your SCSI id 4 maps to MSCP lun 0.
You're on the "second" disk controller. And that also explains why you
cannot use any tapes.
Ok, that helps me understand the unusual addressing behavior I was
seeing. When I added the tape drive, the autoconfigure option on the
RQZX1 did not find the hard disk that was also attached.
Just SCSI as far as I know. The only other connection
is for a floppy,
unless I remember wrong.
More searching and I came across these notes from Terry Kennedy
(buried deeply on DECUS, now Encompass) writing on 4-JUN-1993:
The 50-pin connector is the SCSI bus, the 60-pin connector is for a logic
analyzer for design testing, and the 34-pin connector is for the floppy.
The jumper by the 50-pin connector (JU1) is the termination power enable
jumper. The jumper by the 60-pin connector (JU2) is a reset signal to the
on-board 80186 (jumpering this is a bad idea 8-).
The two switch packs define the 2 logical halves of the controller. There
are two halves, each of which can be set to MSCP or TMSCP.
1 2 3 4 5
OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF MSCP at 17772150 (normal)
OFF OFF OFF OFF ON MSCP at 17760334 (1st alternate)
ON OFF OFF OFF OFF TMSCP at 17774500 (normal)
ON OFF OFF OFF ON TMSCP at 17760404 (1st alternate)
If you need another setting, tell me what it is and I'll post it.
Note that if you change these, you'll need to go into the on-board menu
(get there by booting DU253 or MU253) and do an auto-configure to redefine
the new units.
...and in a followup message Terry Kennedy wrote:
The RQZX1 is the replacement for the RQDXn series controllers. It attaches
SCSI disks and/or tapes to Q-bus PDP-11 systems.
I supposed the big differences between it and the non-DEC competition is:
1) Supports the RX33 floppy via normal floppy interface for backward compat-
ibility with the RQDX3.
2) Provides both disk and tape in the base product - no extra cost.
3) Provided and supported by DEC.
It does not "officially support" bigger disks than the RZ2-something, nor
any tape except the TZ30. Other things do work, however. It's somewhere in
between the KZQSA (I believe that's the model) which only supports tapes and
is kind of lame, and the non-DEC competition. I don't believe it's supported
under VMS. I'm not sure if it works under VMS. It also doesn't "support"
ex-
ternal devices, although there is an external connector and terminator on the
BA23 back panel.
It has a few programming "quirks", which is why the various PDP-11 oper-
ating systems had to have new releases to support it. [I did the driver sup-
port for 2.11BSD Unix]
It's not a bad board. If I were buying a board in this market space to-
day, I'd probably look at the CMD products, just because they don't limit
"support" to a subset of the disk drives, or to only the PDP-11 architecture.
end of quote
Posting here since information about the RQZX1 M5977-AA is difficult to find.
15 Jun
15 Jun
7:46 a.m.
At 3:35 PM +1000 6/15/10, Nigel Williams wrote:
...and in a followup message Terry Kennedy wrote:
It does not "officially support" bigger disks than the RZ2-something, nor
any tape except the TZ30. Other things do work, however. It's somewhere in
<snip>
It's not a bad board. If I were buying a board
in this market space to-
day, I'd probably look at the CMD products, just because they don't limit
"support" to a subset of the disk drives, or to only the PDP-11 architecture.
end of quote
I think these two bits of info are the key ones...
Also, from the RSTS/E 10.1 SPD:
SCSI Support:
o There is no SCSI device handler. The SCSI disk devices are treated
as MSCP disks using DUDVR.
o RQZX1 SCSI adapter-Provides two ports that can be configured (via
a hardware switch on the RQZX1 board itself) as the following:
- 2 disk ports
Each port has it's own CSR and is considered to be a separate controller.
Each disk port can support up to 4 disks (i.e. RX33, RZ23L, RZ24L).
Since the RQZX1 supports RX33 floppy disks, these disks must be counted
in this maximum number of four. For example, one RX33 floppy attached
to the RQZX1 disk port will allow up to three additional SCSI disks
to be attached to that port.
The maximum number of RQZX1 adapters supported per system is one.
RSTS/E does not support any SCSI devices attached outside of the sys-
tem box.
Note: HARDWARE RESTRICTION: Support for the RQZX1 adapter is limited
to microcode version 2.1 or later.
Terry's comments seem to indicate you need DEC HD's. You're
definitely good up to a RZ24 based on the SPD, though it would be
good to know how high you can go. I've used the equivalent of an
RZ28 (a 2GB Seagate Barracuda on my Viking QDT board). What is
interesting is that the SPD doesn't mention supporting the TZ30, yet
Terry mentions the board supports it, and he ran RSTS/E.
All this seems to support my suspicion that you need DEC branded hard
drives. The more interesting question is, can you use DEC branded
tape drives.
I sent a dealer I know that specializes in PDP-11's a few questions,
I'll let you know if find out anything.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
16 Jun
16 Jun
4:59 p.m.
At 7:46 AM -0700 6/15/10, Zane H. Healy wrote:
I sent a dealer I know that specializes in PDP-11's
a few questions,
I'll let you know if find out anything.
Okay, here is what I learned. My comments are in parentheses.
1. When writing an image out to the HD, you must have the exact same
number of blocks for the image and the HD. (This is why I'd
suggested dd'ing the HD to an image, using that image with SIMH to do
the install, and then dd'ing it back.)
2. RSTS is very picky about what it will support (I can confirm this
from my personal experience with 10.1).
3. "The RQZX1 does support non DEC devices. However if you change a
drive it will require you to go into the firmware to update it. Even
if it is the same exact model of drive."
4. RSTS/E might only support up to a 2GB drive (I use a 2GB drive).
I'm still seeing if I can get ahold of a copy of the manual for the RQZX1.
Hopefully RSTS/E isn't picky about about what sorts of drives are
attached to the RQZX1. I know I can use non-DEC HD's on my Viking,
and since the RQZX1 can use non-DEC devices, I think you're safe.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
17 Jun
17 Jun
11:32 a.m.
Zane H. Healy wrote:
I'm still seeing if I can get ahold of a copy of
the manual for the RQZX1.
I have a scan of a very bad partial copy that I finally made into a
PDF. It has Unit 3, switch settings, and Unit 5, the online RFM config
tool. It'll be up at http://www.vaxen.net/RQZX1.pdf for a few days.
Doc
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bqt＠softjar.se -
doc＠vaxen.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
nigel.d.williams＠gmail.com