23 Aug
1999
23 Aug
'99
5:30 a.m.
I'm not suprised at the AR comments. My brother is a master craftsman. He
restores antique furniture for a living and has done so for the Royal
Ontario Museum. He has, on occasion, and for his own amusement, mad e
copies of rare antique pieces and shown them to the experts, sometimes side
by side with the originals. The experts are often wrong in chosing which is
the copy. I wonder how long before fake old computers start to appear? I'm
very proud of him in that he is totally self taught and that he would never
profit from the fakes.
colan
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-----Original Message-----
From: Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com <Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 1:08 PM
Subject: Antiques Roadshow (was: Re: Re. imsai 2)
the few
At 10:39 AM 8/22/99 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
We have a similar show in the UK, also called Antiques Roadshow. One of
"Gee, that's too bad. If you hadn't rewound the transformer on that
IMSAI, it would be worth $50,000. But since it works, it's only
worth $25. Remember folks, never fix anything. The original non-working
lump of metal is worth far more than a machine that does what it was
actually designed to do."
I guess you don't watch the Antiques Roadshow very often. They routinely
dash people's hopes by saying "Gee, if back in 1950 you hadn't refinished
this 1820 chest of drawers, it would be worth $25,000. But now it's
worth $250."
It all comes down to each person's perception of value. And of course,
the sale price is ultimately determined one buyer and one seller.
- John
P.S. For the non-USAians, "Antiques Roadshow" is a television program
on the public television network. It travels from city to city, opening
up a convention hall to the public to bring in their antiques for free
appraisal by their teams of expert auctioneers and collectors. TV shows I actually enjoy watching. Alas I was away
when it came to
Coalville,
so I couldn't take any classic computers to see how
they reacted...
I'm not sure of the accuracy of some of their comments though. Examples
from
when my parents caught it at their town (and got on
TV!):
1. My mother took some WW2 propaganda posters. Was told they were almost
worthless. Later on, an official came up to her and said they wanted to
film
the posters. So they went through the same rigmarole
again. But on camera
she
was told they were worth at least 100 pounds (I
can't remember whether each
or
for the set)
2. My parents also invited them to look at some antique furniture in situ.
One
writing desk they were particularly interested in,
shipped it to the
filming
venue, etc. They pointed out all the things to look
for, and claimed that
the
evidence proved it was original and had never been
restored. My father
forebore
to say that it had come back from the restorer's
workshop only 2 months
earlier
- and we'd all seen the state it was in before it
went...
(We think they must have lost a lot of footage that day. A lot of
interesting
things they filmed weren't shown, and they filled
up time with pointless
activities that had little bearing on the antiques...)
Philip.
23 Aug
23 Aug
5:37 a.m.
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Colan Mitchell wrote:
the copy. I wonder how long before fake old computers
start to appear? I'm
I predicted that would start happening by the end of this year. I hope
I'm proved wrong.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
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[Last web site update: 08/17/99]
5:40 a.m.
I'm not suprised at the AR comments. My brother
is a master craftsman. He
restores antique furniture for a living and has done so for the Royal
Ontario Museum. He has, on occasion, and for his own amusement, mad e
copies of rare antique pieces and shown them to the experts, sometimes side
by side with the originals. The experts are often wrong in chosing which is
the copy. I wonder how long before fake old computers start to appear? I'm
That would be this October, if you believe the scheduled shipping date
for the new Imsai computers.
-Lawrence LeMay
6:42 a.m.
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8:08 a.m.
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
I suspect the reason why fakes of old computers
don't exist is that in almost
all cases it would cost more to make the fake than the machine is worth.
If custom silicon is involved, then there's no way of making a perfect
copy without a lot of cash/resources (yes, you could put the same
functionality into an FPGA or something, and the machine would work the
same way, but it would look totally different inside). Even when all the
parts are standard and available, it's not financially sensible to fake
an old machine.
Well, an Apple-1 could be faked for a reasonably moderate amount of effort
for a rather large return ($5K+). I know there are some parts no logner
available, like (was it the) shift register? But still, enough searching
in electronics surplus shops would eventually turn those parts up. A
couple or three or four replicas could be produced and someone could end
up with between $20K and $40K.
The exception may be for things like the Apple 1,
which is fairly simple,
almost all standard (and easy-to-get) parts (the major problem being the
MOS shift registers in the video system), and which attracts a very high
price. I am suprised that nobody has started making reproductions (or
even fakes) of that machine.
I really should read the entire message before I add my comment :)
Consider that a Mark-8 is probably very simple to re-produce (save for the
8008 chip) but could sell for upwards of $1K each on the current ebay
market frenzy. The original PCB layouts are still available too. Same
goes for a Scelbi.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 08/17/99]
10:05 a.m.
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24 Aug
24 Aug
9:06 a.m.
> Consider that a Mark-8 is probably very simple to
re-produce (save for the
> 8008 chip) but could sell for upwards of $1K each on the current ebay
I hesitate to mention this, but a very common place to
find 8008s is on
the KY11-B frontpanel control board for the PDP11/34. And that machine is
not exactly rare or expensive (yet).
I am not suggesting the responsible enthusiasts will
raid such machine
for the chip, but...
Well, if microprocessors are the area of interest,
an 11/34 is just scrap metall (please, don't hurt me :)
H.
(In fact, I belive an 8008 will be still more valuable than
a PDP 11/34, no matter how rare they will be in the future)
--
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Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
11:39 a.m.
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Consider that a Mark-8 is probably very simple to
re-produce (save for the
8008 chip) but could sell for upwards of $1K each on the current ebay
market frenzy. The original PCB layouts are still available too. Same
goes for a Scelbi.
Hmm...can you send a pointer to this stuff? I have a small stash of 8008s and
I'd love to build a Scelbi clone.
-Dave McGuire
12:57 p.m.
On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote:
I don't know where you'd find any information on the Scelbi on the web.
I know the issue of Radio Electronics where the Mark-8 first appeard as a
kit was July 1974.
Here's a great site Andrew Davies did on the Mark-8 after some e-mail
interviews with Jon Titus.
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/mark8b.html
Jon Titus, creator of the Mark-8, will be speaking at VCF 3.0, so maybe
you can get more resources from him (he's since donated all his original
stuff to the Smithsonian, and I don't think he has the original PCB masks
anymore).
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 08/17/99]
Consider that a Mark-8 is probably very simple to
re-produce (save for the
8008 chip) but could sell for upwards of $1K each on the current ebay
market frenzy. The original PCB layouts are still available too. Same
goes for a Scelbi.
Hmm...can you send a pointer to this stuff? I have a small stash of 8008s and
I'd love to build a Scelbi clone.
9:06 a.m.
> > the copy. I wonder how long before fake old
computers start to appear? I'm
> That would be this October, if you believe the scheduled shipping date
> for the new Imsai computers.
To me, a reproduction is not necessarily a fake. A
fake is a reproduction
that's being passed off as the original.
The Imsai-II is a (partial) reproduction of an old
machine, and I see no
problem with that. In fact the PSU differences (which I am not altogether
happy with for technical reasons mean that it couldn't be mistaken for
the original IMHO.
Well, it can. Not everybody is a Tony Duell. Serious, If the details
are of the minor and less visible kind, they _will_ be mistaken. Shure,
not right out of the shop, but just think about flea markets/swap meets.
Maybe not even ment as a fraud - if these machines are build, their life
doesn't end with the sale (like some sales people may think :). Years
later a possible (re)seller maybe realy don't know the difference.
Example: There's a long running SF book over here "Perry Rhodan" (AFAIR
the first 100 have also been published in the US around 1970). Actual
issue is number 1984 (no, thats not the year, the series is running
weekly since 1961). Sometimes in the past, they offered a special bundle
with a reprint of #1 (I think it was to celebrate #1500). Now this issue
was an exact reprint of #1 - just on the last page, the publishers name
and the date of printing, both in very small font, has been updated (I
also belive the cover had a wrong colour, I have a #1 that has been
untouched in a closed box since 38 years). Now, the original #1 is
woth some 400 to 600 USD (mint), while the reprint is just USD 4,-.
9204
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9 comments
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participants (6)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cdrmool＠interlog.com -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
mcguire＠neurotica.com