10 Sep
2012
10 Sep
'12
11:27 p.m.
It's been in the news this weekend -- Bill Moggridge, credited as the designer of the
"clamshell" shape for laptop computers, died.
I agree that Moggridge did important work for the Grid Compass, circa 1982. His design may
indeed have been the first of its kind, although I'd be curious to see any examples of
prior art.
But, I strongly disagree with all the reports calling the Compass a "laptop"
computer. I don't mean that as mere semantics: a vital definition of a laptop
isn't just a flat lap-sized computer, but rather a flat lap-sized computer with its
own power source. Compass users had no choice but to plug into wall power.
So the Compass may have been the first clamshell * computer * but it's not a laptop.
10 Sep
10 Sep
11:47 p.m.
On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote:
I agree that Moggridge did important work for the Grid
Compass, circa
1982. His design may indeed have been the first of its kind, although
I'd be curious to see any examples of prior art.
Although not exactly the same, Kay's "Dynabook" concept would surely be
closely related prior art.
But, I strongly disagree with all the reports calling the Compass a
"laptop" computer. I don't mean that as mere semantics: a vital
definition of a laptop isn't just a flat lap-sized computer, but rather
a flat lap-sized computer with its own power source. Compass users had
no choice but to plug into wall power.
So the Compass may have been the first clamshell * computer * but it's
not a laptop.
That's a reasonable "requirement", but not universally agreed upon.
Some people didn't mind sitting with a ton of bricks on their lap and a
cord plugged into the wall.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11 Sep
11 Sep
6:26 p.m.
That's a reasonable "requirement", but
not universally agreed upon.
Some people didn't mind sitting with a ton of bricks on their lap and a
cord plugged into the wall.
I once had a PDP11/05 CPU box (the 5.25" version) on my lap while I was
troubeshootin soem part of the hardware (I forget what). On the grounds
that the end of this troubelshooting it was running programs and is
clearly a comnputer, does that make the 11/05 the 'first laptop'?
-tony
8:38 p.m.
On 11 September 2012 14:26, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I once had a PDP11/05 CPU box (the 5.25" version)
on my lap while I was
troubeshootin soem part of the hardware (I forget what). On the grounds
that the end of this troubelshooting it was running programs and is
clearly a comnputer, does that make the 11/05 the 'first laptop'?
-tony
Yes, yes it does. Because that is fscking *AWESOME*.
Cheers,
Christian
9:09 p.m.
> I once had a PDP11/05 CPU box (the 5.25"
version) on my lap while I was
troubleshooting some part of the hardware (I forget
what). On the
grounds that the end of this troubleshooting it was running programs
and is clearly a computer, does that make the 11/05 the 'first laptop'?
The absurdity of that mental image proves my point: a laptop runs on its
own power, ergo the Compass isn't one. It's small, flat, clamshell, and
"portable" by design, but not a laptop.
12 Sep
12 Sep
2:42 a.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
Does anyone have a reference to the earliest use of the term laptop to describe their
product? I would think that would help clear the definition perhaps. Obviously what end
users ended up calling luggables were simply "portable" as the marketing term.
It was a portable all enclosed version of a desktop. Pretty cool you can take your
portable computer with you in itself but obviously portable power/batteries were a
separate time frame.
Is it the original intent that laptop meant self powered or is that only us reading too
much into the details from todays expectations?
-----Original Message-----
From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan at snarc.net>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:09:15
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Bill Moggridge died
> I once had a PDP11/05 CPU box (the 5.25"
version) on my lap while I was
troubleshooting some part of the hardware (I forget
what). On the
grounds that the end of this troubleshooting it was running programs
and is clearly a computer, does that make the 11/05 the 'first laptop'?
The absurdity of that mental image proves my point: a laptop runs on its
own power, ergo the Compass isn't one. It's small, flat, clamshell, and
"portable" by design, but not a laptop.
5:36 a.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On 09/11/2012 10:42 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote:
Does anyone have a reference to the earliest use of
the term laptop to describe their product? I would think that would help clear the
definition perhaps. Obviously what end users ended up calling luggables were simply
"portable" as the marketing term. It was a portable all enclosed version of a
desktop. Pretty cool you can take your portable computer with you in itself but obviously
portable power/batteries were a separate time frame.
Reference? No, but I always thought "lap top" meant, well, "on top of
your lap", rather than "self powered". ;) (sorry Evan)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
5:59 a.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On 12 Sep 2012 at 1:36, Dave McGuire wrote:
Reference? No, but I always thought "lap
top" meant, well, "on top
of your lap", rather than "self powered". ;) (sorry Evan)
I believe that Manny Fernandez referred to the Gavilan as a "laptop"
computer. That would be, what?, around 1983. Up until then, the
term was "notebook" computer.
Anyone have an earlier cite?
--Chuck
3:03 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
>> I believe that Manny Fernandez referred to the
Gavilan as a "laptop"
computer. That would be, what?, around 1983. Up
until then, the term
was "notebook" computer. Anyone have an earlier cite?
This was discussed on another list a few years ago and, as you'd imagine,
no conclusion was drawn.
Around '83-'84 there are several magazine and newspaper references to
"lap-sized" computers.
Here's a July 7, 1984 reference:
http://groups.google.com/group/fa.info-mac/browse_thread/thread/fb7a9bc9eaa…
4:46 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On 12 Sep 2012 at 11:03, Evan Koblentz wrote:
This was discussed on another list a few years ago
and, as you'd
imagine, no conclusion was drawn.
...So sitting on the power supplies of a Cray I would make it a "lap-
bottom" computer?
--Chuck
5:13 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
This was
discussed on another list a few years ago and, as you'd
imagine, no conclusion was drawn.
...So sitting on the power supplies of a Cray I
would make it a "lap-
bottom" computer?
6:14 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I believe that Manny Fernandez referred to the Gavilan
as a "laptop"
computer. That would be, what?, around 1983. Up until then, the
term was "notebook" computer.
I never heard the term "notebook" until much later, and then it was used
to refer to smaller than usual laptops. We played around at Comdex with,
"what is the dividing line between 'laptop' and 'notebook'?"
and then much MUCH later, "netbook"
"What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?"
6:35 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On 12 September 2012 19:14, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
I never heard the term "notebook" until much later, and then it was used
to refer to smaller than usual laptops. We played around at Comdex with,
"what is the dividing line between 'laptop' and 'notebook'?"
and then much MUCH later, "netbook"
"What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?"
I agree. "Laptops" came 10-15y before "notebook computers" in my
experience.
The physical distinction is 1 thing, the marketing one another.
Physically, only when they shrank to the size of an actual paper
notebook did the term start to appear, in the early-to-mid 1990s. This
meant an approximately A4 (or possibly foolscap or "legal" in the
Colonies) footprint. The first ones were a little bit bigger - the
manufacturers were being a bit disingenuous - and were of course
/very/ thick by the standards of paper-pads - 3" or so thick wasn't
uncommon.
The 21st century distinction, when the term "laptop" started being
actively deprecated, was because of heat output. It is of course
entirely reasonable to put something called a "laptop" on your lap,
but the gigaHertz-era machines often ran too hot for this and would
either burn your thighs or overheat as their underside air-intakes
were blocked. They were designed to be used on a desktop, table or
other rigid flat smooth surface - not carpet, bed, duvet, sofa etc.
Thus the manufacturers started quickly removing the word "lap" from
their publicity information, as they started having to do warranty
returns and compensate people with burned legs...
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
6:44 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
There wasn't a neat chronological shrinking of size.
You could play lunar lander on an HP-65 in 1974, and it fit in the palm of
your hand and was battery-powered.
The TRS-80 model 100 was one of the earlier popular "notebook" computers.
The GRiD compass was cool for more than just its size and clamshell
design. Bubble memory. Plasma display. Magnesium shell. It was lust
inducing. :-)
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 September 2012 19:14, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
I never heard the term "notebook" until much later, and then it was used
to refer to smaller than usual laptops. We played around at Comdex with,
"what is the dividing line between 'laptop' and 'notebook'?"
and then much MUCH later, "netbook"
"What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?"
I agree. "Laptops" came 10-15y before "notebook computers" in my
experience.
The physical distinction is 1 thing, the marketing one another.
Physically, only when they shrank to the size of an actual paper
notebook did the term start to appear, in the early-to-mid 1990s. This
meant an approximately A4 (or possibly foolscap or "legal" in the
Colonies) footprint. The first ones were a little bit bigger - the
manufacturers were being a bit disingenuous - and were of course
/very/ thick by the standards of paper-pads - 3" or so thick wasn't
uncommon.
The 21st century distinction, when the term "laptop" started being
actively deprecated, was because of heat output. It is of course
entirely reasonable to put something called a "laptop" on your lap,
but the gigaHertz-era machines often ran too hot for this and would
either burn your thighs or overheat as their underside air-intakes
were blocked. They were designed to be used on a desktop, table or
other rigid flat smooth surface - not carpet, bed, duvet, sofa etc.
Thus the manufacturers started quickly removing the word "lap" from
their publicity information, as they started having to do warranty
returns and compensate people with burned legs...
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
7:57 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
The TRS-80 model 100 was one of the earlier popular
"notebook" computers.
And yet, along wit hthe similar-sizd (but slightly earlier) Epson HX20
machine, and the similar-age Epson PX8 and PX4 machines, I've only ever
ehard it called a 'laptop', not a 'notebook'.
-tony
9:01 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
Maybe it was a US thing.
1984 article on 14 notebook computers:
http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n1/38_14_notebook_computers_in_.p…
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>wrote:
The TRS-80
model 100 was one of the earlier popular "notebook" computers.
And yet, along wit hthe similar-sizd (but slightly earlier) Epson HX20
machine, and the similar-age Epson PX8 and PX4 machines, I've only ever
ehard it called a 'laptop', not a 'notebook'.
-tony
9:22 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop = Last Modified September 11 2012.. ok
who's cheating? ;-)
Per that research/text:
"As 8-bit CPU machines became widely accepted, the number of portables
increased rapidly. The Osborne 1 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_1>,
released in 1981, used the Zilog Z80 and weighed 23.6 pounds (10.7 kg). It
had no battery, a 5 in (13 cm)
CRT<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode_ray_tube>screenscreen, and dual
5.25 in (13.3 cm) single-density floppy drives. In the
same year the first laptop-sized portable computer, the Epson
HX-20<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epson_HX-20>20>,
was announced.[5] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop#cite_note-4> The
Epson had a LCD
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal_display>screen, a
rechargeable battery, and a calculator-size printer in a 1.6 kg
(3.5 lb) chassis. Both
Tandy/RadioShack<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RadioShack>and
HP <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett_Packard> also produced portable
computers of varying designs during this
period.[6]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop#cite_note-5>
[7] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop#cite_note-6> The first laptops
using the flip form factor
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_%28form%29>appeared in the early
1980s. The Dulmont
Magnum <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulmont_Magnum> was released in
Australia in 1981?82, but was not marketed internationally until 1984?85.
The US$8,150 (US$19,630 today) GRiD Compass
1100<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GRiD_Compass>ss>,
released in 1982, was used at NASA <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA> and
by the military among others. The Gavilan
SC<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavilan_SC>SC>,
released in 1983, was the first computer described as a "laptop" by its
manufacturer.[8] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop#cite_note-7>"
9:55 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
>> the
same year the first laptop-sized portable computer, the Epson
HX-20 >> The Dulmont Magnum was released in Australia
in 1981?82
I don't think that is true, or at least, I've seen no proof. If it is
true, then it beats Grid, because it had a battery.
Rant: It makes me want to bang my head against a wall when people write
whatever they happen to hear / prefer as "first".
10:42 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On 12 September 2012 23:13, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Hmmm. To me that means a handheld device upon which you write with a stylus.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
> The
TRS-80 model 100 was one of the earlier popular "notebook" computers.
although it never caught on, I once heard it called a "notepad" computer
6:58 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
the Zenith Minisports may have spurred the usage of "notebook". It was about the
size of one. I got 2 :)
Incidentally does anyone remember one of the first color laptops/notebooks. It was a
~3" LCD in the middle of a much larger area! I saw a picture of it in Computer
Shopper around 1993/4 I guess. It was a hoot!
7:19 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
The late 80's saw several small computers -- the Minisport, the NEC
Ultralite, and the even smaller Poqet PC and Atari Portfolio.
Not sure who made the first one with color display. The net says it was
the Compaq LTE-286.
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Chris Tofu
<rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>wrote:
the Zenith Minisports may have spurred the usage of
"notebook". It was
about the size of one. I got 2 :)
Incidentally does anyone remember one of the first color
laptops/notebooks. It was a ~3" LCD in the middle of a much larger area! I
saw a picture of it in Computer Shopper around 1993/4 I guess. It was a
hoot!
7:33 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
Color portable the first I believe was commodores sx-64. Not sure about laptop but I do
recall early color compaq notebooks with a color screen being similar with a huge plastic
border and wondering why the screen is so small vs the case.
Re:trs-80 model 100 I do see references calling it a laptop in some software ads, etc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:58:34
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
the Zenith Minisports may have spurred the usage of "notebook". It was about the
size of one. I got 2 :)
Incidentally does anyone remember one of the first color laptops/notebooks. It was a
~3" LCD in the middle of a much larger area! I saw a picture of it in Computer
Shopper around 1993/4 I guess. It was a hoot!
7:56 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
Incidentally does anyone remember one of the first
color
laptops/notebooks. It was a ~3" LCD in the middle of a much larger area!
I saw a picture of it in Computer Shopper around 1993/4 I guess. It was
a hoot!
Don't know which one.
But, . . .
The Gavilan was a B&W MS-DOS (not quite PC-DOS) machine.
It came with an EIGHT line by 80 character screen!
Then they came out with a new model with a SIXTEEN line by 80 character
screen.
It also had composit external video at 25 x 80
Updates to its MS-DOS 2.11 continued after the company went under!
(Revision J, K, L)?
7:44 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On 12 Sep 2012 at 19:35, Liam Proven wrote:
Your experience (or memory) obviously has dropped a bit or two.
"Notebook" came before "Laptop" as witnessed by this 1983 ad for the
Epson HX-20:
http://www.bambootrading.com/proddetail.asp?prod=1050&cat=210
A "laptop" computer that came 15 years before then (1968) probably
would have been flesh-and-blood. Not a bad thought, but I don't
think anyone used the term then.
--Chuck
I agree.
"Laptops" came 10-15y before "notebook computers" in my
experience.
8:32 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
I was going to also post a reference to this 1984 article (in 84 via google
searches the term laptop and notebook are both fairly prevalent)
http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n1/86_The_Teleram_T3000.phpThere&…
a reference but only referring to itself as a notebook size "first
truly portable personal computer" says the ad of a Teleram 3000 in the (Vol.
16, No. 39 ) 9/27/82 Computerworld magazine on page 104. I'd never heard
of a Teleram hence the other link earlier in trying to figure out who they
were and what it did. http://tinyurl.com/9hk7sw8 is interesting as well.
I'm trying to find more information on what this book is and the system
they're speaking about. Uses the term laptop as well as notebook and I
think but can't quite tell the book is from 83? but it has a bunch of new
copyright dates as well at the beginning. Unfortunately it's in a language
that I don't read. Fun that you can understand half the words though
contextually and computer wise.
9:33 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
>> I agree. "Laptops" came 10-15y
before "notebook computers" in my
> experience.
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Your experience (or memory) obviously has dropped a
bit or two.
"Notebook" came before "Laptop" as witnessed by this 1983 ad for the
Epson HX-20:
http://www.bambootrading.com/proddetail.asp?prod=1050&cat=210
A "laptop" computer that came 15 years before then (1968) probably
would have been flesh-and-blood. Not a bad thought, but I don't
think anyone used the term then.
The HC20 (and its USA subversion HX20)was sometimes called a notebook, as
was the Radio Shack Model 100. Do those infringe on Apple and Samsung's
"rights"?
Then the term faded out for years.
Long after the advent of "laptop" computers, "notebook" was
re-introduced
by marketing to refer to small[er] clamshell laptops.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:04 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
>> Long after the advent of "laptop"
computers, "notebook" was re-introduced by marketing to refer to small[er]
clamshell laptops.
Arrrghhhhh! Everyone stop this madness. It doesn't fucking matter what
particular word we all individually think was "first" or "right". In
the
real world (gasp .... which some of us should get out of our labs and go
visit sometime, it's nice, there are women), everyone knows what a
friggin' laptop computer is .... and it's got batteries. Compass doesn't.
10:32 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
Meh.. I've seen webcam shots of the real world. The graphics aren't that
good. What I'm interested in is when I'm in these chatrooms, say not tied
to my desk, would you say I'm talking to these (wo)men via a laptop and
what's the first laptop I could chat to .. j/k
Just some more gas on the fire
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/laptop but seriously.. how the
hell do they find it responsible to put the first known use of the world
"laptop" as 1984 and site absolutely no reference?!
Regardless I was curious just about the marketed term to predict what the
implied technology would have been. I unfortunately don't agree that a
laptop computer would have to be battery powered. It would just have to be
operationally useable on ones lap. I'm impressed with a lot of the found
examples though. Some interesting and I think useful comments.
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:
Long after the advent of "laptop" computers,
"notebook" was re-introduced
>> by marketing to refer to small[er]
clamshell laptops.
>>
>
Arrrghhhhh! Everyone stop this madness. It doesn't fucking matter what
particular word we all individually think was "first" or "right". In
the
real world (gasp .... which some of us should get out of our labs and go
visit sometime, it's nice, there are women), everyone knows what a friggin'
laptop computer is .... and it's got batteries. Compass doesn't.
10:10 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On 12 Sep 2012 at 14:33, Fred Cisin wrote:
The HC20 (and its USA subversion HX20)was sometimes
called a notebook,
as was the Radio Shack Model 100. Do those infringe on Apple and
Samsung's "rights"? Then the term faded out for years. Long after the
advent of "laptop" computers, "notebook" was re-introduced by
marketing to refer to small[er] clamshell laptops.
And so it goes--round and round.
Have a look at a 1972 microprocessor, the AES-80:
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/aes/AES-
80_Microprocessor_Brochure.pdf
Says right there in black-and-white: "microprocessor".
--Chuck
7:12 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
"What is the dividing line between
'notebook' and 'netbook'?"
It's a pretty picky and pointless division, so, "nitbook", I'd say.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
7:37 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
________________________________
From: Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org>
"What is the dividing line between
'notebook' and 'netbook'?"
It's a pretty picky and pointless division, so, "nitbook", I'd say.
C: Furthermore...
?was there or wasn't there a special name given to the Geode based One Laptop per Tiny
Third World Hacker units. My battery is about to die, I could use one of the hand cranks
about now! LOL LOL LOL
7:57 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
> "What is the dividing line between
'notebook' and 'netbook'?"
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote:
It's a pretty picky and pointless division, so,
"nitbook", I'd say.
We have a winner! The definitive answer.
10:33 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
"What is the dividing line between
'notebook' and 'netbook'?"
It's a pretty picky and
pointless division, so, "nitbook", I'd say.
10:59 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
From another debate (I guess it's just seasonal)
but seriously.. you'd
think the term would have been trademarked or patent
applied, etc somewhere
that a company officially called a device a notebook or laptop?!
regardless from another long winded thread points out an interesting system
I'd never previously heard of (probably should have though)
http://www.xnumber.com/xnumber/MCM_70_microcomputer.htm MCM/70 from Micro
Computer Machines Inc. Although the years referenced between 3 different
sites I've read about say it was out in 1972, 73 (wikipedia), and 74
(old-computers) but argument sake aside. Apparently it had a 1 line
display, programmed APL, and per the articles actually did have an option
for battery power.
Timeline wise certainly makes a good effort at the argued technology.
14 Sep
14 Sep
2:41 a.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
>
http://www.xnumber.com/xnumber/MCM_70_microcomputer.htm MCM/70 from
Micro Computer
Machines Inc. Although the years referenced between 3
different sites I've read about say it was out in 1972, 73 (wikipedia),
and 74 (old-computers) but argument sake aside. Apparently it had a 1
line display, programmed APL, and per the articles actually did have an
option for battery power.
No, it had a battery backup for your data -- not a battery for actually
running the computer.
There's an excellent history book about MCM by Z. Stachniak. I recommend
it. Zig runs a computer museum at York U. and has access to several MCM
computers: http://www.cse.yorku.ca/~zbigniew/
Nevermind laptops; a whole * other * debate is whether the MCM was the
first microcomputer! (Before any puts in two cents, please consider
READING real sources, not just Wikipedia...)
http://www.cse.yorku.ca/museum/collections/MCM/MCM.htm
12 Sep
12 Sep
9:33 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
"What is
the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?"
It's
a pretty picky and pointless division
9:52 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On 12 Sep 2012 at 17:33, Evan Koblentz wrote:
Laptop / notebook / whatever, and certain list
members' sarcasm aside,
a computer isn't a laptop (by the real-world definition) if it only
works when plugged in.
ISTR that on some of the early Grid models, you removed the AC supply
from the unit and substituted a battery pack. Does
that count?
How about those models offered with an external battery pack?
--Chuck
10:10 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
ISTR that on some of the early Grid models, you
removed the AC supply from the unit and substituted a battery pack. Does that count?
It wasn't an option for the 1100/1101 (that '82 models; only difference
between them was the amount of memory.)
By the time Grid offered that, other battery-powered clamshells existed.
11:01 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
Laptop / notebook / whatever, and certain list
members' sarcasm
aside, a computer isn't a laptop (by the real-world definition) if it
only works when plugged in.
I think it's not that simple. Remove the battery pack and it ceases to
be a laptop? Not by the "what people actually say when not
logic-chopping on mailing lists" definition you seem to be (not
unreasonably, IMO) arguing for.
I don't think the "what people actually say" meaning of `laptop' is one
that can be captured by a simple objective easy-to-test line like "runs
on battery" or "integral screen that forms a lid". Like a lot of the
ways people actually use language, it's much fuzzier. Or, at least,
that's how it seems to me.
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7:31 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On 12 Sep 2012 at 11:14, Fred Cisin wrote:
I never heard the term "notebook" until much
later, and then it was
used to refer to smaller than usual laptops. We played around at
Comdex with, "what is the dividing line between 'laptop' and
'notebook'?"
I'd heard the term "Notebook" used before "Laptop" in the case of
systems such as the TRS-80 Model 11 and even the HP-75. Not exactly
what we mean by the term now.
--Chuck
6:10 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
"Portable" was widely [mis]used by marketing.
I gave my parents their first color TV. It was a used "portable", with
two handles on each end.
"Luggable" was a deliberately negative term used for "portable"
computers.
When the first Compaq came out, I took one to Hawaii. Although there was
plenty of room for it (I had a freebie first class ticket!), there was a
lot of discussion of whether it should be allowed in cabin. Lots of
whispered conversation, with the phrase "sewing machine" in most
sentences. I added write and format support to XenoCopy in Hawaii.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
7:37 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
"Portable" was widely [mis]used by marketing.
I gave my parents their first color TV. It was a used "portable", with
two handles on each end.
Was it a delta gun or a PIL CRT? The reason I ask is that the former is
not sterctily portable (no matter what hendles are on the cabinet) since
you have to set it up in the location it is to be used.
One version of the double-rack Philips P850 minicompuer (which weighs
around 50kg) had a plastic outser casing with handles. It was claiemd 4
people could carryi t betweem them. I guess when many other computers
came in 6' racks or air conditioned rooms, this was 'portable'.
And IIRC HP solde carrying handle kits for the HP9100 and HP9800 series
of machines. All mains powered machines, of course.
-tony
8:51 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
I haven't seen the handles for the HP-9800, but I do have the case for the
IBM 5100.
Google found no pictures of the case. Outrageous. And fixed....
http://i47.tinypic.com/2yzlkz5.jpg
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>wrote:
"Portable" was widely [mis]used by marketing.
I gave my parents their first color TV. It was a used "portable", with
two handles on each end.
Was it a delta gun or a PIL CRT? The reason I ask is that the former is
not sterctily portable (no matter what hendles are on the cabinet) since
you have to set it up in the location it is to be used.
One version of the double-rack Philips P850 minicompuer (which weighs
around 50kg) had a plastic outser casing with handles. It was claiemd 4
people could carryi t betweem them. I guess when many other computers
came in 6' racks or air conditioned rooms, this was 'portable'.
And IIRC HP solde carrying handle kits for the HP9100 and HP9800 series
of machines. All mains powered machines, of course.
-tony
13 Sep
13 Sep
6:03 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
I haven't seen the handles for the HP-9800, but I do have the case for the
I've never seen them, but Ithoguht I read about them somewhere...
In any case (!) it would not be hard to git a handle to the HP9830, and
the machine is light enough for one person to carry it. That, I guess,
makes it a portable comptuer :-)
IBM 5100.
I also remember seeing a pair of carrying cases for the TRS-80 Model 1.
Oen took the keyboard/CPU unit, the PSU and the cassette recorder. The
other took the monitor. I never had them, and they were pretty useless if
you had a disk system anyway.
-tony
12 Sep
12 Sep
10:10 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
> I gave my parents their first color TV. It was a
used "portable", with
> two handles on each end.
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Was it a delta gun or a PIL CRT? The reason I ask is
that the former is
not sterctily portable (no matter what hendles are on the cabinet) since
you have to set it up in the location it is to be used.
It worked (albeit it had never worked very well) after a friend and I
hefted it into place.
6:01 p.m.
New subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 barythrin at gmail.com wrote:
Does anyone have a reference to the earliest use of
the term laptop to
describe their product? I would think that would help clear the
definition perhaps. Obviously what end users ended up calling luggables
were simply "portable" as the marketing term. It was a portable all
enclosed version of a desktop. Pretty cool you can take your portable
computer with you in itself but obviously portable power/batteries were
a separate time frame.
Is it the original intent that laptop meant self powered or is that only
us reading too much into the details from todays expectations?
YES.
On the Osborne 1, Lee Felsenstein designed in a connector for external
battery power! When queried about how large the battery would be, Lee
answered, "How big is your CAR? It is not intended for portable use on
batteries." I thought that that interchange was on Computer Chronicles,
but I can't find it.
So, he wasn't competing for the "first ridiculous laptop" title.
(BTW, Lee was driving a 1977 Honda Accord)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10 Sep
10 Sep
11:48 p.m.
On 10 Sep 2012 at 23:27, Evan Koblentz wrote:
But, I strongly disagree with all the reports calling
the Compass a
"laptop" computer. I don't mean that as mere semantics: a vital
definition of a laptop isn't just a flat lap-sized computer, but
rather a flat lap-sized computer with its own power source. Compass
users had no choice but to plug into wall power.
So the Compass may have been the first clamshell * computer * but it's
not a laptop.
...and to my recollection, the Compass was the *only* Grid model
without a battery option. Note that the early Toshiba plasma laptops
also had the same limitation--and Toshiba shamelessly copied the Grid
design--and got sued as a result.
--Chack
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