20 Jun
2005
20 Jun
'05
10:12 a.m.
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 "Fred N. van Kempen" <waltje at pdp11.nl> wrote:
Almost.
Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, 11/23, 11/24, 11/34,
11/35, 11/40, 11/60.
Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, 11/83,
11/84, 11/93, 11/94.
Did I forget any? :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Allison wrote:
No. 2.11 **only** runs on SPlitID systems. For non-ID
systems,
use 2.8, 2.9 or (perhaps) 2.10. Ultrix-11 runs on all of these,
by the way. AND is fully supported by VTserver, as I maintain
both :P
Don't think 2.10 will run on non split-I/D machines either.
I'm
not 100% sure if it's your problem, but 2.11BSD doesn't work on the
F11 chipset (11/23) because it doesn't have split I&D space. You'll
need to use 2.9BSD or earlier on it.
There are two versions of 2.11 if memory serves one with split
I&D and one without. I have to
check but fuzzy memory says 11/23 had I&D or was that later
with the J11? I distinctly remember the MMU of the 11/23 as being
software compatable with 11/34, 11/69 and 11/70 (to the limits of
Q18 or Q22).
11/23 is based on the F11, and therefore does *not* have SplitID
(11/40,34,50,55,60,23). The /44, 45, 70, 53, 73 and up do. 
20 Jun
20 Jun
10:20 a.m.
>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny Billquist
<bqt at Update.UU.SE> writes:
Johnny> Almost. Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21,
Johnny> 11/23, 11/24, 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60.
Johnny> Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73,
Johnny> 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94.
Johnny> Did I forget any? :-)
T-11 :-)
Most of the ones you listed have no MMU at all, so "not applicable"
would be more accurate for those.
paul
4:49 p.m.
>>>> "Johnny" == Johnny
Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> writes:
Johnny> Almost. Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21,
Johnny> 11/23, 11/24, 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60.
Johnny> Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73,
Johnny> 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94.
Johnny> Did I forget any? :-)
T-11 :-) 
7:32 p.m.
Tony Duell declared on Monday 20 June 2005 06:49 pm:
I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no
I/D, F11 chip) and
the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not run normal PDP11
software, the I/O is totally different I believe.
I've booted RT-11 on my Pro380, so it can't be that far off. It doesn't
have a QBUS/UNIBUS though, so there's not a whole lot of peripherals
that you can use with it.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
21 Jun
21 Jun
12:55 a.m.
New subject: PRO-is-not-PDP (was: Re: VTSERVER booting)
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Tony Duell declared on Monday 20 June 2005 06:49 pm:
A PRO is a machine based on a PDP-11 chipset (either F11
or J11),
and all that comes with it (instruction set, I/O system, intrs)
but that's about it. The actual mainboard design is busless, the
implementation of onboard I/O, interrupt system etc are different,
and the I/O bus (CTIbus) is different. The CTI-bus peripherals
are different. The system has RX50 and RDxx drives, for examples,
but their controllers are completely different from the ones used
in PDP-11's.
I ported Ultrix-11 to it (still finishing up so I can package it
up for release, so don't ask..) and that wasn't 'simple'.
--f
I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350
(no I/D, F11 chip) and
the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not run normal PDP11
software, the I/O is totally different I believe.
I've booted RT-11 on my Pro380, so it can't be that far off. It doesn't
have a QBUS/UNIBUS though, so there's not a whole lot of peripherals
that you can use with it.
7:10 a.m.
>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick
Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> writes:
Patrick> Tony Duell declared on Monday 20 June 2005 06:49 pm:
> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350
(no I/D, F11 chip)
> and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not run
> normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I believe.
Patrick> I've booted RT-11 on my Pro380, so it can't be that far off.
Oh, it is, it sure is way off. Not only are the I/O devices
completely different, but the interrupt system is very ugly.
A PRO is basically a PDP-11 CPU with a pile of first generation PC
support chips glued onto the side, making quite an ugly mongrel.
The PRO technical manual is on bitsavers.org. Take a look at the
system unit chapter and check out the I/O section, especially the
interrupt controller. You'll see what I mean.
I did the work to port RSTS to a PRO. It was a large job, and I make
my rude comments about the PRO I/O "architecture" based on first hand
knowledge...
paul
7:03 a.m.
>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell <ard
at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> writes:
Tony> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11
Tony> chip) and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not
Tony> run normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I
Tony> believe.
It certainly is -- different and very badly conceived. But then
again, Unibus and Q-bus are also different (though not by the same
magnitude). A number of OSs run on PROs -- RT, Unix, P/OS, perhaps
stock RSX as well. And the RSTS standalone initialization module will
boot on a PRO in V9.6, though OS support for it was never released...
paul
4:10 p.m.
>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell
<ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> writes:
Tony> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11
Tony> chip) and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not
Tony> run normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I
Tony> believe.
It certainly is -- different and very badly conceived. But then
again, Unibus and Q-bus are also different (though not by the same
5:58 p.m.
>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell <ard
at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> >>>>
"Tony" == Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>
Tony> I suppose you could include the Pro 325 and 350 (no I/D, F11
Tony> chip) and the Pro 380 (split I/D, J11 chip). But those will not
Tony> run normal PDP11 software, the I/O is totally different I
Tony> believe.
> It certainly is -- different and very badly
conceived. But then
> again, Unibus and Q-bus are also different (though not by the same
Tony> Unibus and Qbus are actually quite similar, to the extent that
Tony> devices for either bus generally look the same to the software
Tony> (the DL11 and DLV11 serial ports have the same registers, same
Tony> bit allocations, ...
True. Bad analogy. The "CT bus" (what you find in a PRO) is about as
different from Unibus/Qbus as the ISA bus, only uglier yet.
The truly bizarre thing is that there are hints of DMA capability in
the books, but no actual PRO I/O device does DMA -- not even the hard
drive controller or the ethernet card. That's one of the many strikes
against it...
paul
22 Jun
22 Jun
1:14 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Paul Koning wrote:
True. Bad analogy. The "CT bus" (what you
find in a PRO) is about as
different from Unibus/Qbus as the ISA bus, only uglier yet.
The truly bizarre thing is that there are hints of DMA capability in
the books, but no actual PRO I/O device does DMA -- not even the hard
drive controller or the ethernet card. That's one of the many strikes
against it...
So far, I believe that's caused by the periphs of the system,
not
the system (or bus) itself. I can't see any reason why DMA, as is
"advertised", indeed, would not work. Once I'm done with Ultrix
on it, I probably will check with my hardware buddies and see if
we can do some CTI boards- for the heck of it.
--f
20 Jun
20 Jun
10:22 a.m.
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Don't think 2.10 will run on non split-I/D
machines either.
I thought so too, but wasnt sure.
Almost.
Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21, 11/23, 11/24, 11/34,
11/35, 11/40, 11/60.
/05 is /10, /21 doesnt exist (== Falcon SBC), /35 is /40.
/15 I believe was a special-case /20 ?
Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70,
11/73, 11/74, 11/83,
11/84, 11/93, 11/94.
Did I forget any? :-)
M70, M100, M110 :P
--f
4:02 p.m.
On Monday 20 June 2005 12:12, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21,
11/23, 11/24,
11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60.
Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74,
11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94.
Did I forget any? :-)
Pro 325 & 350 - Non-split I&D (F11)
Pro 380 - Split I&D (J11)
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
21 Jun
21 Jun
6:45 a.m.
>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick
Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> writes:
Patrick> On Monday 20 June 2005 12:12, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> Non I/D: 11/03, 11/05, 11/10, 11/15, 11/20, 11/21,
11/23, 11/24,
> 11/34, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60.
>
> Split I/D: 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74,
> 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94.
>
> Did I forget any? :-)
Patrick> Pro 325 & 350 - Non-split I&D (F11) Pro 380 - Split I&D
Patrick> (J11)
Sure. And if you're going there, there are also the PDT110, 130 and
150 (non/ID I assume, but I'm not sure what's inside).
paul
7124
days inactive
7126
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13 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bqt＠Update.UU.SE -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
waltje＠pdp11.nl