3 Sep
2003
3 Sep
'03
8:04 p.m.
Has anyone actually tried to scale "on-topic" into something we can wrap our
arms around? Once upon a time, I was told that any platform carrying a
version of Windows was off topic. What of my DEC SL486DX with DOS 5.0,
WIndows 3.1 and Office 4.0? The DEC manufacturer's tag clearly shows a
manufacture date of 1991 (so did some of the files I cleaned out of it...).
A DEC recovery service tag also clearly shows a complete overhaul in 1993.
Is it on-topic by year of manufacture, but off-topic because of its onboard
applications? What applies? What doesn't?
Ed Tillman
Store Automation Tech Support Specialist
Valero Energy Corporation
San Antonio, Texas, USA
Office: (210)592-3110, Fax (210)592-2048
Email: edward.tillman(a)valero.com <mailto:edward.tillman@valero.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: Mail List [mailto:mail.list@analog-and-digital-solutions.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:15 AM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Dec or Digital Networking
Hello Don,
Or, why not simply items that apply/relate to
equipment at least 10 years
old?
That too. In fact, upon further reflection, I thought that there might still
be items that were released 10+ years ago, that might now be considered
classic, but might still be being manufactured new, and still sold, even by
the original equipment manufacturer. No specific example comes to mind,
but there must be some. So, I thought a refinement to be, "items which were
originally released 10 or more years ago, regardless of whether or not still
being made and sold", and as you have suggested, "items that apply/relate to
equipment at least 10 years old" might be the best definition to apply as
to whether or not an item is, or is not, on topic.
Best Regards
[...] Pared for bandwidth... -- Ed
3 Sep
3 Sep
8:17 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tillman, Edward" <Edward.Tillman(a)valero.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 5:55 PM
Subject: RE: Dec or Digital Networking
Has anyone actually tried to scale
"on-topic" into something we can wrap
our
arms around? Once upon a time, I was told that any
platform carrying a
version of Windows was off topic.
Indeed, in another 2 years Windows 95 will fall into the 10+ year range.
cheers,
Lance
// http://commodore.thebbs.org
telnet://commodore.thebbs.org
Since 1987 - Australia's oldest Amiga BBS //
8:40 p.m.
Hello Lance,
Indeed, in another 2 years Windows 95 will fall into
the 10+ year range.
Yikes! Now I know I'm getting old.
Best Regards
At 06:08 PM 9/4/03 +1000, you wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tillman, Edward" <Edward.Tillman(a)valero.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 5:55 PM
Subject: RE: Dec or Digital Networking
Has anyone actually tried to scale
"on-topic" into something we can wrap
our
arms around? Once upon a time, I was told that
any platform carrying a
version of Windows was off topic.
Indeed, in another 2 years Windows 95 will fall into the 10+ year range.
cheers,
Lance
// http://commodore.thebbs.org
telnet://commodore.thebbs.org
Since 1987 - Australia's oldest Amiga BBS // 
4 Sep
4 Sep
1:40 a.m.
New subject: On/OffTopic criteria (was: RE: Dec or Digital Networking)
Bah.. people, try to keep subjects sane :)
Has anyone actually tried to scale
"on-topic" into something we can wrap our
arms around? Once upon a time, I was told that any platform carrying a
version of Windows was off topic. What of my DEC SL486DX with DOS 5.0,
WIndows 3.1 and Office 4.0? The DEC manufacturer's tag clearly shows a
manufacture date of 1991 (so did some of the files I cleaned out of it...).
A DEC recovery service tag also clearly shows a complete overhaul in 1993.
Is it on-topic by year of manufacture, but off-topic because of its onboard
applications? What applies? What doesn't?
Hmm.. or, how about selecting on the basis of things still being in
active production or not? The SL486DX in your example might not fit
the 10-year rule, but since it is no longer in production (read: EOL,
EOP), it "probably" will fit the "no longer supported, probably still
used, and if interesting to someone, probably collected by someone"
rule, making it a ClassicCmp issue..
--f
1:46 a.m.
New subject: On/OffTopic criteria (was: RE: Dec or Digital Networking)
The current criteria is anything not produced for at least 10 years.
Thus, by my thoughts... the machine in question here is on topic. The windows
O/S on it is not.
4:14 a.m.
New subject: OffT: netBSD on OnT: Mac
My question is a little OT, I'm trying to get a 1993
Mac LC575 (68040) to run 2000 netBSD 1.5.
Already I've pored over, line by line, the 'install' doc included
for arcana since I'm getting neither a simple fail or success
and there are few warnings in it, no big red flags.
Here's the relevant symptoms: booting to kernel_install
gives me a fs that df says is 2MB in size, and I haven't found
instructions to mount the other fs (following).
There were problems with all the other kernels, like generic.
Using the Mac side installer has allowed base and other
installs (over 20MB), and they're persistent, but the included
boot kernels don't seem to access it. All I get is the MiniShell.
Changes to the 2MB fs in the kernel boot are temporary, as if all
i'm seeing is an in-memory kernfs.
If you've seen this yourself, let me know, else have a happy one.
Since my question is OT maybe you should reply directly,
not that I expect a lot of bandwidth anyway <g>.
John A.
4:38 a.m.
New subject: OffT: netBSD on OnT: Mac
--- John Allain <allain(a)panix.com> wrote:
My question is a little OT, I'm trying to get a
1993
Mac LC575 (68040) to run 2000 netBSD 1.5.
you might want to try asking on one of the Mac mailing lists - see:
http://www.lowendmac.com/500/lc575.shtml
good luck!
Jules
=====
Backward conditioning: putting saliva in a dog's mouth in an attempt to make a bell
ring.
________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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4:49 a.m.
New subject: OffT: netBSD on OnT: Mac
Jules Richardson wrote:
--- John Allain <allain(a)panix.com> wrote:
Or even better yet, try the NetBSD Mac/68k mailing list...
http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/mac68k/
and the archives at
http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-mac68k/
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
My question is a little OT, I'm trying to get
a 1993
Mac LC575 (68040) to run 2000 netBSD 1.5.
you might want to try asking on one of the Mac mailing lists - see:
http://www.lowendmac.com/500/lc575.shtml
good luck!
Jules
4:27 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
It has been a while since we've gone through this again, but this has to
be probably the 8th time...
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Tillman, Edward wrote:
Has anyone actually tried to scale
"on-topic" into something we can wrap our
arms around? Once upon a time, I was told that any platform carrying a
version of Windows was off topic. What of my DEC SL486DX with DOS 5.0,
WIndows 3.1 and Office 4.0? The DEC manufacturer's tag clearly shows a
manufacture date of 1991 (so did some of the files I cleaned out of it...).
A DEC recovery service tag also clearly shows a complete overhaul in 1993.
Is it on-topic by year of manufacture, but off-topic because of its onboard
applications? What applies? What doesn't?
The bottom line is this: do you really want to trudge through a bunch of
boring discussions about PCs and Windows?
I certainly do not.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
4:50 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
nice subject :)
The bottom line is this: do you really want to trudge
through a bunch of
boring discussions about PCs and Windows?
I certainly do not.
Not if they're boring, no. The way I see it the list seems to pretty much
manage itself though - whether people are even reading the 'official' topic
guidelines or not.
The diversions into guns or cars that seem to crop up every now and then aside,
the computing aspect of things seems to stay largely 'on topic' in my mind in
that it seems to typically fit with what I'd call 'classic'. When there are
computer-related posts about something reasonably new then the poster normally
has a good enough reason for asking here, and I would have though those posts
can be forgiven. The signal to noise ratio is still low, and I would expect
that (almost) everyone receives posts that are notionally 'on topic' but oof no
interest to them anyway.
I don't see any need to get our panties in a twist and thrash out what is and
isn't on topic to be honest - it all seems to work well enough already as far
as I can see.
cheers
Jules
=====
Backward conditioning: putting saliva in a dog's mouth in an attempt to make a bell
ring.
________________________________________________________________________
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Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
5:30 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
I agree that the list runs fairly well without a "list nazi" stomping
around policing everyone's posts. I'm on several Mac lists on LEM. I
posted a question on a list and was slapped down by the list police. It
concerned a Daystar Genesis with a G4 upgrade card running OS-X. It
seems that it wasn't welcome on the Powermac list becase Apple didn't
make it. It wasn't welcome on OldMacMP list because it wasn't running
it's original MP processor card and it wasn't welcome on the G-List
becasue it wasn't a factory G-4. The only place it was considered on
topic was on the Unsupported-X list.
The bottom line is this: do you really want to trudge
through a bunch of
boring discussions about PCs and Windows?
I certainly do not.
It depends. I find Sgi VW320/540 workstations worthy of discussion as
well as the Intergraph NT based systems. How about a Raptor-3. NT
based, but hardly your father's Dell. I'm interested in Sgi's, NeXT,
Sun's, Mac's and older DOS machines. I wade through lots of posts about
DEC's and other big iron that I never read because that's not my thing.
http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html
6:10 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
The bottom line
is this: do you really want to trudge through a bunch of
boring discussions about PCs and Windows?
I certainly do not.
It depends. I find Sgi VW320/540 workstations worthy of discussion as well as the
Intergraph NT based systems. How about a Raptor-3. NT based, but hardly your
father's Dell. I'm interested in Sgi's, NeXT, Sun's, Mac's and older
DOS machines. I wade through lots of posts about DEC's and other big iron that I
never read because that's not my thing.
6:56 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Personally I've always considered there to be a
"Coolness" clause to the
10-year rule. Which covers stuff like SGI's, NeXT (I guess they're all
finally on topic now), and even really cool PC hardware (the SGI
VW320/540's would probably fall under this clause).
True, coolness factor counts for a lot. I guess the bottom line is that
if someone is getting way too PC, they'll hear about it from others.
I really don't want to trudge through a bunch of
PC and Windows
discussions here, but I've got to admit that if I ever find the time to
setup a DOS box like I've been wanting to, I'll probably have a few
questions (it's been over 10 years since I really did anything with DOS),
and I'll probably ask them here.
As with everything, with enough time passed, even DOS and Windows will be
interesting to discuss. Just not right now.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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7:47 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
I agree with the "Coolness clause". I guess I like hardware that is not
the usual Dell/HP/Gateway crap. After working on that multi-giga-hertz
junk all
day and battling the lastest worm/virus , I have to go home to a
refreshing session on my 33mhz R3000 Iris indigo or my 33mhz Turbo
Dimension NeXT Cube.
Now this is OT but I think it's cool. My company outfitted all the
service techs with Tablet PC's last week for record keeping in the
field. We actually got them before the suits and sales droids. I will
have to admit, they are cool. It's the closest thing to an electronic
notebook I've ever played with.
James
Zane H. Healy wrote:
Personally I've always considered there to be a
"Coolness" clause to the 10-year rule. Which covers stuff like SGI's, NeXT
(I guess they're all finally on topic now), and even really cool PC hardware (the SGI
VW320/540's would probably fall under this clause).
9:18 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
I agree with the "Coolness clause". I guess
I like hardware that is not
the usual Dell/HP/Gateway crap. After working on that multi-giga-hertz
Hey, I _like_ HP machines... Of course the HP machines I like are not the
modern ones, which are crap from what I can see. They're machines that
are certainly on-topic here, like the HP9830, HP Integral (a lunchbox
with HP-UX in ROM...), their calculators of 20-30 years ago (and yes, I
consider a calculator that you can program in machine code, that has a
disk drive, a full-width inkjet printer, an RS232 port and a HPIB port to
be a computer...)
-tony
5:03 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival
The bottom line is this: do you really want to trudge through a bunch of
boring discussions about PCs and Windows?
I certainly do not.
Er, not really... but then I go MEGO on the days when I have to wade though
lots of PDP or Vax posts. (Almost makes me wonder if this list should split
into a number of more "targeted" lists.)
Regardless, does anyone know of a good set of forums/lists for discussion of
older PC/Dos/Windows issues? I'm thinking of something like the LowEndMac
lists, but PC-based.
<<<john>>>
6:54 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, John Ruschmeyer wrote:
Er, not really... but then I go MEGO on the days when
I have to wade though
lots of PDP or Vax posts. (Almost makes me wonder if this list should split
into a number of more "targeted" lists.)
We also discussed and summarily dismissed that concept in the past.
I think we should put together an archive of all the past "10 year rule"
threads and put them on a website somewhere. Then, whenever someone
(inevitably) brings this up we can refer them to the website.
Members of this mailing list need to realize that this list has been
around now for 6.5 years, and it's always been like this, and it probably
always will (well, with the exception of the CCTALK/CCTECH split, which I
ignore anyway). No matter how many times it's argued over, the consensus
will be that we just don't want to discuss 10 year old PCs or Windows.
Regardless, does anyone know of a good set of
forums/lists for discussion of
older PC/Dos/Windows issues? I'm thinking of something like the LowEndMac
lists, but PC-based.
http://www.oldskool.org
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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7:39 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
Well if there is a 10 year rule that would mean anything from mid 1993 and
earlier, which catches alot of the commodity PC era almost up to windows 95.
Everybody here has a special era they collect and have knowledge of, thats
the reason I joined the list. As newer and younger people join the list I
would assume the focus would change to newer equipment. If you want to keep
this list from moving into the newer machines then you probably want to have
a specific dateline of what is on topic and what is not. This would keep
people from joining and talking about a class of machines that most users
dont care about.
I personally dont care much about the early 90's intel pc architecture, but
I do care about the addons that pertain to gaming (classic sound cards,
video cards, memory managers, etc.) same with the early 8 bits and later 16
bit home computers (c64, Amiga 500/1200, Atari 800/ ST, Apple II). I also
get into early macs (IIfx, 840av, 950 aws, a few PCI macs) some for their
architecture and some just because the video capture hardware I am
interested in run on those machines.
Most people hate hearing the common questions repeated over and over, but if
you just direct those people to places where they can get their feet wet
they will probably learn enough to get into that particular equipment and
come back with some really good discusions down the road. It keeps any list
from stagnating because sooner or later the old members
will have talked
everything to death.
8:26 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
Rumor has it that TeoZ may have mentioned these words:
Well if there is a 10 year rule that would mean
anything from mid 1993 and
earlier, which catches alot of the commodity PC era almost up to windows
95.... [snip]
And would have *excluded* discussions about the Tandy Color Computer 3 up
until last year; as they were listed in the Radio Shack Catalog up to 1992
(altho they were closeout that last year...) -- Now, if one wanted to split
hairs, one could have said "I bought mine in 1987, so *mine* is ontopic..."
but that gets just as tedious as all them thar Winders blatherings
IMNSHO... (BTW, I bought mine in '86... had the first one in probably a 150
mile radius of my house... ;-)
On that note, the *coolest* 8-bit CPU known to man or beast may yet be
off-topic... I don't know when Hitachi made their 63C09; have they been out
10 years??? Yes, I *still* want one of those... just don't have the time to
futz with it if I had one, that's why I don't order one. (Mark Malette (?)
of Cloud-9 still had some in stock, last I checked... they ain't cheap, but
hey... whaddya want for a cooler 6809 than the 6809... ;-)
[snip]
That's my $0.0000000000000002, or what it's worth...
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
8:31 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, TeoZ wrote:
the reason I joined the list. As newer and younger
people join the list I
would assume the focus would change to newer equipment. If you want to keep
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wrong. If the focus of this list ever changes to supporting old PCs then
it has effectively died. Old computers don't die. They just get older.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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9:20 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Anyway, I'm one of the younger members of this list, but many of my
computers are older than I am by a significant margin.
Peace... Sridhar
the reason I
joined the list. As newer and younger people join the
list I would assume the focus would change to newer equipment. If you
want to keep
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wrong. If the focus of this list ever changes to supporting old PCs
then it has effectively died. Old computers don't die. They just get
older.
9:36 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
Anyway, I'm one of the younger members of this
list, but many of my
computers are older than I am by a significant margin.
Last time I demonstrated one of my minis to a university computer club, I
suddently realised that the machine was older than the students :-)
-tony
9:53 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
I'm 50. It's getting damn hard to find a computer older than me.
James
vance(a)neurotica.com wrote:
Anyway, I'm one of the younger members of this
list, but many of my
computers are older than I am by a significant margin.
Peace... Sridhar
11:16 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
IMO, 'coolness' is the key factor, but it cannot be used as any form of
criteria for the list simply
because what I find cool, someone else will not.
So I tend to think about the 'collectability' of a given bit of
hardware. This is much easier to define
in a common way.
One key factor in 'collectability' is rarity. Most PC's (but not all)
are commodity products, produced
by the tens of thousands, even millions. to my eyes, such machines will
never have much value as a
collectable.
Its also true that commodity products generally are not good examples of
ground-breaking new
technology, so they also lack intrinsic value as collectables.
Now if you had the first PC with an Active Matrix color LCD (was not a
laptop BTW!), which was
also an EISA-bus AC powered 'portable', then I would say that PC is a
bit collectable, and on-topic.
But this is because it broke new technical ground and marked a turning
point in computing technology.
It was also not produced in any great numbers and was quickly obsoleted,
so its a rather rare machine.
A blanket cut-off date is simple snobbery, and ignores that computer
evolution does continue today.
I don't see much classic potential in a Geo Metro, no matter how old it
gets. Same for any clone PC
thrown together from off-the shelf parts, or even a brand-name 'me-too' PC.
I would not want to see the list turn into a MS-DOS or Windows support
group, that would be a
plug-pulling situation for my personally.
11:52 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Shannon" <bshannon(a)tiac.net>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
IMO, 'coolness' is the key factor, but it
cannot be used as any form of
criteria for the list simply
because what I find cool, someone else will not.
So I tend to think about the 'collectability' of a given bit of
hardware. This is much easier to define
in a common way.
One key factor in 'collectability' is rarity. Most PC's (but not all)
are commodity products, produced
by the tens of thousands, even millions. to my eyes, such machines will
never have much value as a
collectable.
Its also true that commodity products generally are not good examples of
ground-breaking new
technology, so they also lack intrinsic value as collectables.
Now if you had the first PC with an Active Matrix color LCD (was not a
laptop BTW!), which was
also an EISA-bus AC powered 'portable', then I would say that PC is a
bit collectable, and on-topic.
But this is because it broke new technical ground and marked a turning
point in computing technology.
It was also not produced in any great numbers and was quickly obsoleted,
so its a rather rare machine.
A blanket cut-off date is simple snobbery, and ignores that computer
evolution does continue today.
I don't see much classic potential in a Geo Metro, no matter how old it
gets. Same for any clone PC
thrown together from off-the shelf parts, or even a brand-name 'me-too'
PC.
I would not want to see the list turn into a MS-DOS or Windows support
group, that would be a
plug-pulling situation for my personally.
Its not just the hardware, its the software that you run on it thats
classic.
While I have no love for the commodity PC I do love the classic games that
ran on them.
The best selling PC in the world was a C64, it was ground breaking for price
performance, sold in the 8-10,000,000 and isnt rare at all.
A machine without software is just a nice looking door stop. Its a
combination of the machine and the software that makes a classic in my eyes.
I agree with the windows support group being a bad idea. A Powermac 8500
isnt a classic machine, but when people start talking about getting their
Videovision Studio with Telecast running and the cool things it can do I get
interested (yes I have a setup). I am also interested in not so common
software (Apple A/UX , Desqview/X on the PC) on common equipment. Where do
you draw the line between "How do I save a file in windows 95" to "I have
a
glitch in my A/D data aquisition card in my Pentium Lab machine"?
12:14 p.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
TeoZ wrote:
<snip>
Its not just the hardware, its the software that you run on it thats
classic.
While I have no love for the commodity PC I do love the classic games that
ran on them.
The best selling PC in the world was a C64, it was ground breaking for price
performance, sold in the 8-10,000,000 and isnt rare at all.
A machine without software is just a nice looking door stop. Its a
combination of the machine and the software that makes a classic in my eyes.
Actually, the software ~may~ be classic, but this is not always the case..
In many cases a classic CPU exists and is quite practical to restore and
operate, but the vintage
peripherals like disk drives are no longer practical for normal use.
Most often this is because the
media has a finite life and is no longer made. More commonly someone
finds a CPU but none
of the supporting peripherals come with it.
Rather than use a real classic CPU as a doorstop (real classics are too
large for a task better
left to a commodity product like the C64) you can interface the classic
machine to a PC or other
host system and get software from some of the excellent archives on the
web (like Jeff Moffat's).
After all, many real classics have core memory and simply are not as
disk-dependant as modern
systems.
I agree with the windows support group being a bad idea. A Powermac 8500
isnt a classic machine, but when people start talking about getting their
Videovision Studio with Telecast running and the cool things it can do I get
interested (yes I have a setup). I am also interested in not so common
software (Apple A/UX , Desqview/X on the PC) on common equipment. Where do
you draw the line between "How do I save a file in windows 95" to "I have
a
glitch in my A/D data aquisition card in my Pentium Lab machine"?
Easy!
Both are off-opic IMO.
5:20 p.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, TeoZ wrote:
The best selling PC in the world was a C64, it was
ground breaking for price
performance, sold in the 8-10,000,000 and isnt rare at all.
Correction: 17-22 million.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
5:19 p.m.
New subject: Historical relevance of common clone PC was Re: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Bob Shannon wrote:
I don't see much classic potential in a Geo Metro,
no matter how old it
gets. Same for any clone PC thrown together from off-the shelf parts, or
even a brand-name 'me-too' PC.
Actually, at some point in the future, common (for today) PC clones that
were built from parts by individual users will be very historically
relevant as examples of the time when PC's became a commodity!
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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8 p.m.
New subject: Historical relevance of common clone PC was Re: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Bob Shannon wrote:
And maybe those "Sams" 386-486 computers that were sold as part of those
learn-to-repair PCs courses will become highly collectible ;)
-Toth
I don't see much classic potential in a Geo
Metro, no matter how old
it gets. Same for any clone PC thrown together from off-the shelf
parts, or even a brand-name 'me-too' PC.
Actually, at some point in the future, common (for today) PC clones that
were built from parts by individual users will be very historically
relevant as examples of the time when PC's became a commodity! 
5 Sep
5 Sep
1:38 a.m.
New subject: Historical relevance of common clone PC was Re: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tothwolf" <tothwolf(a)concentric.net>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 4:09 AM
Subject: Re: Historical relevance of common clone PC was Re: YADA10YR (Yet
Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
Or you can get your degree. You can major in computer repair or business
administration!
Wasn't that the era when PC's became commodity enough that "Repairing"
one
meant running a DOS floppy checker on a drive to see if it's dead, and
throwing a new one in if it was? I remember my friend's dad had a floppy
drive alignment gadget, hooked up to an oscilloscope and let you realign the
heads of your floppy drive. Cost twice as much as a new floppy drive, but if
you fixed one twice, it's paid off :)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Bob Shannon wrote:
And maybe those "Sams" 386-486 computers that were sold as part of those
learn-to-repair PCs courses will become highly collectible ;)
-Toth I don't see much classic potential in a Geo
Metro, no matter how old
it gets. Same for any clone PC thrown together from off-the shelf
parts, or even a brand-name 'me-too' PC.
Actually, at some point in the future, common (for today) PC clones that
were built from parts by individual users will be very historically
relevant as examples of the time when PC's became a commodity!
4:17 a.m.
New subject: Historical relevance of common clone PC was Re: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason McBrien" <jbmcb(a)hotmail.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Historical relevance of common clone PC was Re: YADA10YR (Yet
Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
Or you can get your degree. You can major in computer repair or business
administration!
Wasn't that the era when PC's became commodity enough that "Repairing"
one
meant running a DOS floppy checker on a drive to see if it's dead, and
throwing a new one in if it was? I remember my friend's dad had a floppy
drive alignment gadget, hooked up to an oscilloscope and let you realign
the
heads of your floppy drive. Cost twice as much as a
new floppy drive, but
if
you fixed one twice, it's paid off :)
I still havnt made up my mind which is better, expensive computer equipment
you can repair that lasts forever or extemely cheap equipment that dies in a
few years that gets tossed. If everything made from the start of computing
was cheaply made none of us would have this hobby now, then again I dont
miss paying $700 for a 300dpi laser printer or $2000 for the first 2x CDR
burner.
10:41 a.m.
New subject: Historical relevance of common clone PC was Re: YADA10YR
I still havnt made up my mind which is better,
expensive computer equipment
you can repair that lasts forever or extemely cheap equipment that dies in a
I know which I prefer -- the former.... It's a lot less hassle for one
thing (I have lost count of the times that the new 'replacement' has
subtle incompatibilties with the old unit, for example)..... It's also
cheaper in the end...
few years that gets tossed. If everything made from
the start of computing
was cheaply made none of us would have this hobby now, then again I dont
miss paying $700 for a 300dpi laser printer or $2000 for the first 2x CDR
burner.
I have said many times that now I can't pay _enough_ for things. I _want_
to pay $5000 for a home VCR, for example (and I want to get a VCR that
has a die-cast metal deck, proper bearings, proper heads, glassfibre
PCBs, and so on). I want to get a laserprinter that's built like an old
CX or SX (and not one of the modern pieces of plastic junk I see for
sale).
-tony
10:41 a.m.
New subject: Historical relevance of common clone PC was Re: YADA10YR
throwing a new one in if it was? I remember my
friend's dad had a floppy
drive alignment gadget, hooked up to an oscilloscope and let you realign the
heads of your floppy drive. Cost twice as much as a new floppy drive, but if
I still have (and use) devices like that. I have a proper drive exerciser
(not essential -- you can do the same thing with software on the host
machine 99% of the time). You step the heads to the correct track with an
alignemnt disk in the drive and look at the output of the read amplifier
on the 'scope. Then shift the heads until the 2 lobes are the same amplitude.
I also have a little gadget that connects to a PC serial port. Inside is
an ADC and a microcontroller. It's supposed to read the amplitude of said
lobes and the PC will display how far off-track you are. I find this a
_lot_ less convenient than the 'scope, though.
Why do I bother? well, I've had _new_ branded floppy drives that are
marginally aligned. I value my data ... And of course you can't buy new
drives for many classic machines [1] so you have to be able to repair them
[1] And IMHO while you should repair classic computers (they were
designed to work and should be kept working), you should also keep as
many of the original parts as possible. Better to replace a small
component in the drive than the entire drive.
you fixed one twice, it's paid off :)
-tony
8:15 a.m.
New subject: Historical relevance of common clone PC was Re: YADA10YR
I don't see much classic potential in a Geo Metro,
no matter how old it
gets. Same for any clone PC thrown together from off-the shelf parts, or
even a brand-name 'me-too' PC.
That's what was said about the Edsel, and about the VW,
and about the Ford model T and model A (Geo Metros of their time!)
Even the most commonplace items of the past become interesting
and "collectible" after they've been gone for a long time.
1:31 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf(a)siconic.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
<snip>
Members of this mailing list need to realize that this
list has been
around now for 6.5 years, and it's always been like this, and it probably
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
always will (well, with the exception of the
CCTALK/CCTECH split, which I
ignore anyway).
</snip>
If the list is only 6.5 years old, does that mean discussing it is off
topic? :)
3:19 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
It was written...
If the list is only 6.5 years old, does that mean
discussing it is off
topic? :)
Awesome! Perfect ammunition for this list-nazi *GRIN* Now NO discussion is
allowed ;) Thanks for a great laugh this morning!
4:15 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Jason McBrien wrote:
If the list is only 6.5 years old, does that mean
discussing it is off
topic? :)
Actually, YES! Thank you! You've solved the problem.
Now everyone go back to discussing old computers!!
;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
4 Sep
4 Sep
5:44 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
I don't mind old PC/MAC posts as long as they are geared towards the more
esoteric hardware. "I can't get my monitor to work on my Performa 400" is
probably the wrong question to ask in this forum, but "Anyone know how to
access the LCD panel on an Apricot 486?" is just wierd enough.
We could have a "recomended" models covered list for Macs, and maybe divvy
up the PC compatables by bus type/processor. I'd say EISA and MCA based PC's
are odd enough to be covered by classiccmp, especially because most
manufacturers that made the cards are gone or don't support them anymore.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf(a)siconic.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:11 PM
Subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
Festival
It has been a while since we've gone through this
again, but this has to
be probably the 8th time...
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Tillman, Edward wrote:
> Has anyone actually tried to scale "on-topic" into something we can wrap
our
> arms around? Once upon a time, I was told that
any platform carrying a
> version of Windows was off topic. What of my DEC SL486DX with DOS 5.0,
> WIndows 3.1 and Office 4.0? The DEC manufacturer's tag clearly shows a
> manufacture date of 1991 (so did some of the files I cleaned out of
it...).
> A DEC recovery service tag also clearly shows a
complete overhaul in
1993.
> Is it on-topic by year of manufacture, but
off-topic because of its
onboard
applications?
What applies? What doesn't?
The bottom line is this: do you really want to trudge through a bunch of
boring discussions about PCs and Windows?
I certainly do not.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage
mputers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at
http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
7:18 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
I have a delete key on my keyboard. It works, but it would get way too
much use if we started running windoze tech support threads.
IMHO, if it has an 8086 or higher processor, it's neither interesting
nor vintage. :) (I would be happier if the list drew a firm line in the
sand at 1980!)
-Bryan
8:22 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Bryan Blackburn wrote:
IMHO, if it has an 8086 or higher processor, it's
neither interesting
nor vintage. :) (I would be happier if the list drew a firm line in the
sand at 1980!)
Wouldn't that leave out machines like the PDP-11/93?
Peace... Sridhar
4:53 p.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
IMHO, if it has
an 8086 or higher processor, it's neither interesting
nor vintage. :) (I would be happier if the list drew a firm line in the
sand at 1980!)
Wouldn't that leave out machines like the PDP-11/93?
Peace... Sridhar
8:32 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
Bryan Blackburn wrote:
I have a delete key on my keyboard. It works, but it
would get way too
much use if we started running windoze tech support threads.
IMHO, if it has an 8086 or higher processor, it's neither interesting
nor vintage. :) (I would be happier if the list drew a firm line in the
sand at 1980!)
No, it is vintage just often not a quality product. A separate group
say classicpc might be a better option. Ben.
9:18 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
IMHO, if it has an 8086 or higher processor, it's
neither interesting
COunterexamples : THe PC-incompatibles -- things like the HP110, HP150,
original Apricot, Sirius/Victor 9000, etc that run MS-DOS, but which
certainly are not PC clones. IMHO those are at least as interesting as
the home micros of about the same time.
And of course the Sequent machines that were boxes of 386s running in
parallel IIRC.
nor vintage. :) (I would be happier if the list drew a
firm line in the
sand at 1980!)
What, and cut out cool machines like the PERQs (after the PERQ 1a)?
-tony
9:34 a.m.
New subject: YADA10YR (Yet Another Discussion About the 10 Year Rule)
IMHO, if it has an 8086 or higher processor, it's
neither interesting
nor vintage. :) (I would be happier if the list drew a firm line in the
sand at 1980!)
The last years of CP/M extended to about 1984. Well, except for things
like Amada machine tools that were using CP/M based systems well into the
90's. A fair number of people consider the Kaypro (1983?) and Otrona
Attache (1984?) to be valid topics.
I think that the DEFACTO, informal, unofficial, line has become about 20
years on intel based products. It seems that people are now comfortable
about talking about original PCs (5150 1981) and XT and DOS up to V3.xx,
but that AT (286 1983?) are still not of much interest. Just think - in
ten or 20 years, people might think that XP is interesting!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:18 a.m.
Has anyone actually tried to scale
"on-topic" into something we can wrap our
arms around? Once upon a time, I was told that any platform carrying a
version of Windows was off topic. What of my DEC SL486DX with DOS 5.0,
Err, since when?
While many of us don't care much for Windows for technical reasons (but
this is not the place for anti M$ flamewars, so I'll leave it at that), I
didn't think that discussions of 10-year-old+ versions were off-topic.
In fact the inital FAQ for this list specifically mentions you can talk
about 10-year-old PCs, and I would assume by extension the software that
runs on them.
-tony
7730
days inactive
7731
days old
44 comments
22 participants
participants (22)
-
allain＠panix.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bshannon＠tiac.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dwoyciesjes＠comcast.net -
Edward.Tillman＠valero.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jbmcb＠hotmail.com -
jrice54＠charter.net -
jruschme＠netzero.net -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
llyon＠commodore.thebbs.org -
mail.list＠analog-and-digital-solutions.com -
oldcomp＠cox.net -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
tothwolf＠concentric.net -
vance＠neurotica.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
waltje＠pdp11.nl -
zmerch＠30below.com