25 May
2007
25 May
'07
6:32 p.m.
My old uVax II (in BA23 case) has been sitting around idle for too
long and it's time to revive it or let it move on. Right now it's got
a TK50 or TK70 which works (can boot the diagnostic tape) and a flake
RD5x drive. After laughing at the prices the gougers on ebay want for
those drives, maybe it's time to shift gears and just go SCSI.
I think the qbus scsi card is the KZQSA, or are there others that will work?
Will the uVax just recognize the card and any scsi drive attached to
it, or will there be more configuration involved (particular slots,
firmware changes, etc?)
Anyone got one for sale?
Alternately, if I stay with the MFM controller I have now, will any
old MFM drive work, or must it be DEC branded (custom ROM on the
drive, maybe?)
Thanks in advance
-j
25 May
25 May
7:37 p.m.
On 5/25/07, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
My old uVax II (in BA23 case) has been sitting around
idle for too
long and it's time to revive it or let it move on. Right now it's got
a TK50 or TK70 which works (can boot the diagnostic tape) and a flake
RD5x drive. After laughing at the prices the gougers on ebay want for
those drives, maybe it's time to shift gears and just go SCSI.
Q-bus SCSI cards aren't cheap from what I've seen on eBay. Another
option you might consider is ESDI. ESDI drives are more expensive and
smaller than SCSI drives (which are almost free), but Q-bus ESDI
controllers are usually a lot cheaper than Q-bus SCSI controllers, and
ESDI drives should be larger and cheaper than good working MFM drives.
26 May
26 May
3:15 a.m.
At 12:37 PM -0700 5/25/07, Glen Slick wrote:
Q-bus SCSI cards aren't cheap from what I've
seen on eBay. Another
option you might consider is ESDI. ESDI drives are more expensive and
smaller than SCSI drives (which are almost free), but Q-bus ESDI
controllers are usually a lot cheaper than Q-bus SCSI controllers, and
ESDI drives should be larger and cheaper than good working MFM drives.
I've only used them on my PDP-11, and not the VAX (they will work in
a VAX), however, I found the Webster WQESD/04 boards to be a dream.
In fact I wish my SCSI boards were as nice.
Just the SCSI board alone will likely run you more than an ESDI
controller, and ESDI drives unless you get lucky.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
4:19 a.m.
Hi,
Q-bus SCSI cards aren't cheap from what I've
seen on eBay....
I've never seen one on eBay, not that I've looked too hard, but how much do
they go for on there?
The last time I looked at getting a Q-Bus SCSI card was about 8 or 9 years
ago, at that time the DEC dealers over here (second hand dealers BTW) wanted
?500 minimum!
TTFN - Pete.
4:38 a.m.
On 5/25/07, Ensor <classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk> wrote:
I've never seen one on eBay, not that I've
looked too hard, but how much do
they go for on there?
This one is perpetually listed at $100
http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ973…
Provided I can confirm that it will work with my uVax II and some
obtainable drive, I'd pay maybe half that for it :)
5:33 a.m.
On 5/25/07, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
This one is perpetually listed at $100
http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ973…
Provided I can confirm that it will work with my uVax II and some
obtainable drive, I'd pay maybe half that for it :)
I have no idea if a M5976-A KZQSA works as a general SCSI disk
controller in a MicroVax-II system. At a minimum you would have to
hack the S-Box brackets to fit it into a BA23. Anyone have experience
doing that?
A more desirable from what I have seen "CMD CQD" (search for that)
controller on eBay typically sells for around the $200 range when not
listed by the crazy high price resellers.
In comparison, a Q-bus ESDI controller such as an Emulex QD21 or Dilog
DQ696 might go for around the $20-$30 range on eBay, and a 300MB ESDI
drive about the same.
(Other people might have different observations on current prices...)
5:58 a.m.
At 10:33 PM -0700 5/25/07, Glen Slick wrote:
A more desirable from what I have seen "CMD
CQD" (search for that)
controller on eBay typically sells for around the $200 range when not
listed by the crazy high price resellers.
I just might have to start keeping my eye out for one then. I'd love
a nice CMD CQD-220/TM for my main PDP-11, and that would free up a
Viking QDT for a VAX.
I just did a search and everything that turned up was listed by
dealers in their eBay stores, at least the first half seemed to be
reasonably priced, and without knowing more I can't say that even
that $1132.28 one isn't a decent price.
BTW, it is worth noting that some boards are tape only, some are disk
only, and the more valuable ones do both disk and tape. Another
thing to be aware of is that the firmware version will effect what
devices the board can talk to. For example to use a CD-ROM you need
a fairly new firmware on a Viking QDT.
In comparison, a Q-bus ESDI controller such as an
Emulex QD21 or Dilog
DQ696 might go for around the $20-$30 range on eBay, and a 300MB ESDI
drive about the same.
(Other people might have different observations on current prices...)
The downside of an ESDI drive is that shipping might just cost more
than the drive itself.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
5:43 a.m.
At 11:38 PM -0500 5/25/07, Jason T wrote:
On 5/25/07, Ensor <classiccmp at
memory-alpha.org.uk> wrote:
Well, for anything other than a KZQSA, I'd disagree, but for the
KZQSA I'm not sure the KZQSA has much value left in it. Maybe you
should just look at getting a VAXstation 3100/20 or a similar system,
they should be cheap, they use SCSI. As long as you want to run VMS
you can use the MVII as a satellite node to the 3100.
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_9254.html
If you can find a decent Q-Bus or Unibus SCSI controller for $50 or
less, the odds are it will only work with tape drives. The other
alternative is to start keeping your eye out for complete systems.
Remember Q-Bus SCSI controllers have *REAL* commercial value.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
I've never seen one on eBay, not that I've
looked too hard, but how much do
they go for on there?
This one is perpetually listed at $100
http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ973…
Provided I can confirm that it will work with my uVax II and some
obtainable drive, I'd pay maybe half that for it :)
10:25 p.m.
On 5/25/07, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
This one is perpetually listed at $100
http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ973…
Heh....before I learned more about this board I made a "best offer"
for it for $25, thinking he'd never take it. Well, he took it. So
now I've got a tape-only quadbus scsi board on the way that may not
fit in my case.
I read on one page that it may recognize CD-Rom drives, however. So I
guess that's something.
11:24 p.m.
At 5:25 PM -0500 5/26/07, Jason T wrote:
On 5/25/07, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com>
wrote:
I believe most S-Box cards can be made to fit in a standard Q-Bus
chassis with some work. Though in doing so you might weaken the
ports on the card.
I think the KZQSA will support at least a couple CD-ROM drives, I
don't remember for sure, but I thought that was their primary
purpose. The bad news it might be hard to get a supported drive.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
This one is perpetually listed at $100
http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-VAX-MicroVAX-SCSI-Module-KZQSA_W0QQitemZ973…
Heh....before I learned more about this board I made a "best offer"
for it for $25, thinking he'd never take it. Well, he took it. So
now I've got a tape-only quadbus scsi board on the way that may not
fit in my case.
I read on one page that it may recognize CD-Rom drives, however. So I
guess that's something. 
27 May
27 May
9:39 a.m.
On Sat, 26 May 2007 16:24:09 -0700
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
I believe most S-Box cards can be made to fit in a
standard Q-Bus
chassis with some work. Though in doing so you might weaken the
ports on the card.
IIRC: The KZQSA has "centronics" style SCSI
connectors. These are to big
to fit into a BA23 or BA123. The SCSI connectors will collide with the
card in front of the KZQSA.
IIRC: The KZQSA is a dump device. It does not speak (T)MSCP. It has no
boot ROM and no standard VAX boot ROM supports the KZQSA as boot device.
It was intended as tape and CDROM interface only.
What you want is a RQZX1 (M5977). This is a SCSI to MSCP and TMSCP
adapter. Or one of the third party equivalents. (CMD, Dilog, Emulex,
...)
Don't forget to have a look at: http://www.mscpscsi.com/
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
5:09 p.m.
On 5/27/07, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
What you want is a RQZX1 (M5977). This is a SCSI to
MSCP and TMSCP
adapter. Or one of the third party equivalents. (CMD, Dilog, Emulex,
...)
OK - I've set some ebay searches to look for those.
As an alternate, what are the options for MFM drives other than the
DEC-labeled RD5x set? I have some other Micropolis and similar drives
sitting around with similar capacities. Would they be recognized by
my controller (model# not handy at the moment, sorry.) Or did the DEC
MFM controllers require a certain ROM on the drives?
7:22 p.m.
On Sun, 27 May 2007 12:09:06 -0500
"Jason T" <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
As an alternate, what are the options for MFM drives
other than the
DEC-labeled RD5x set?
Have a look at "third-party-disks.txt".
You know about "pdp11-field-guide.txt"?
And, as already noted: Most likely an ESDI controller + disk is cheaper
then a QBus SCSI adapter and does a good job. I use two Dilog ESDI MSCP
controlers, a DQ686 in a MV III and a DQ696 in a PDP-11/73. They work
really well.
If you want something funny look for a Fujitsu Eagle and a Emulex QD33,
accompanied by a Emulex TC13 controled Fujitsu M2442A or the like. :-)
BTW: I have a nice M2442A free for local pickup in Germany...
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
28 May
28 May
6:12 p.m.
On May 27, 2007, at 1:09 PM, Jason T wrote:
As an alternate, what are the options for MFM drives
other than the
DEC-labeled RD5x set? I have some other Micropolis and similar drives
sitting around with similar capacities. Would they be recognized by
my controller (model# not handy at the moment, sorry.) Or did the DEC
MFM controllers require a certain ROM on the drives?
I have taken bog-standard drives (of the correct make/model) and
used them with success on DEC RQDXx controllers. The mapping:
RD50 Seagate ST-506 5MB full height
RD51 Seagate ST-412 10MB full height
RD52 Quantum Q540 32MB full height
RD53 Micropolis 1325 71MB full height
RD54 Maxtor XT2190 159MB full height
RD31 Seagate ST225 21MB half height
RD32 Seagate ST251 42MB half height
Note that the larger drives are not supported by the older
controllers, etc. You'll generally be in good shape with an RQDX3.
If you don't have one, let me know; I must have twenty of them here.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
29 May
29 May
12:46 a.m.
At 2:12 PM -0400 5/28/07, Dave McGuire wrote:
On May 27, 2007, at 1:09 PM, Jason T wrote:
While these will work, you need a way to format them. A VAXstation
2000, is a nice choice, if you can find one.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
As an alternate, what are the options for MFM
drives other than the
DEC-labeled RD5x set? I have some other Micropolis and similar drives
sitting around with similar capacities. Would they be recognized by
my controller (model# not handy at the moment, sorry.) Or did the DEC
MFM controllers require a certain ROM on the drives?
I have taken bog-standard drives (of the correct make/model) and
used them with success on DEC RQDXx controllers. The mapping:
RD50 Seagate ST-506 5MB full height
RD51 Seagate ST-412 10MB full height
RD52 Quantum Q540 32MB full height
RD53 Micropolis 1325 71MB full height
RD54 Maxtor XT2190 159MB full height
RD31 Seagate ST225 21MB half height
RD32 Seagate ST251 42MB half height
Note that the larger drives are not supported by the older
controllers, etc. You'll generally be in good shape with an RQDX3.
If you don't have one, let me know; I must have twenty of them here.
3:15 a.m.
On May 28, 2007, at 8:46 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
While these will work, you need a way to format them. A VAXstation
2000, is a nice choice, if you can find one.
Yes. I mentioned here awhile back that I was once told, by a now-
former DEC employee, that the MicroVAX/VAXstation-2000 formats drives
with a different interleave factor than the RQDX3 uses, resulting in
lower data transfer rates than one would expect by formatting
directly with the RQDX3 using the diag software on a VAX or a
PDP-11. Does anyone here know what the two interleave factors
actually are?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
As an alternate, what are the options for MFM drives
other than the
DEC-labeled RD5x set? I have some other Micropolis and similar
drives
sitting around with similar capacities. Would they be recognized by
my controller (model# not handy at the moment, sorry.) Or did
the DEC
MFM controllers require a certain ROM on the drives?
I have taken bog-standard drives (of the correct make/model) and
used them with success on DEC RQDXx controllers. The mapping:
RD50 Seagate ST-506 5MB full height
RD51 Seagate ST-412 10MB full height
RD52 Quantum Q540 32MB full height
RD53 Micropolis 1325 71MB full height
RD54 Maxtor XT2190 159MB full height
RD31 Seagate ST225 21MB half height
RD32 Seagate ST251 42MB half height
Note that the larger drives are not supported by the older
controllers, etc. You'll generally be in good shape with an RQDX3.
If you don't have one, let me know; I must have twenty of them here. 
25 May
25 May
10:57 p.m.
On 25/05/07, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
My old uVax II (in BA23 case) has been sitting around idle for too
long and it's time to revive it or let it move on. Right now it's got
a TK50 or TK70 which works (can boot the diagnostic tape) and a flake
RD5x drive. After laughing at the prices the gougers on ebay want for
those drives, maybe it's time to shift gears and just go SCSI.
I think the qbus scsi card is the KZQSA, or are there others that will
work?
I've been considering the same but the expense of qbus scsi has so far
put me off.
My memory of KZQSA cards they're quite limited in what you can do, eg speed
and number of drives.
Sometime in the early nineties the first UNIX box I ever saw was a DECsystem
5500 (Mips cpu with qbus, Ultrix 4 maybe) with all of it's disk in an
external box hanging off a KZQSA. When we called support about the numerous
crashes DEC asked why we were running an unsupported configuration. Of
course our answer was - 'coz you lot sold it to us like that' :)
Suffice to say a patch was forthcoming, but as to whether it'll work with
VMS I've no idea, no doubt others list members can shed more light.
--
Pete Edwards
"Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels
Bohr
6423
days inactive
6427
days old
16 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
classiccmp＠memory-alpha.org.uk -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
silent700＠gmail.com -
stimpy.u.idiot＠gmail.com