19 Oct
1999
19 Oct
'99
7:25 a.m.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:41:47 -0400
"Bill Sudbrink"
<bill(a)chipware.com> said:
I've hunted around on the web to no avail...
Can anybody give me the specs on these?
According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual
for the TM100-1 and TM100-2:
Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives
Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks
Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5%
Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds
Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds
Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds
Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds
Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds
Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM
Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second
Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk, TM100-2 500Kb per disk
Bill,
Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot
disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out
and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the
cleaning.
So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets.
Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets.
Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers
and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll
be ready to fire this thing up. :)
--Doug
====================================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work)
Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home)
Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Analog Computer Museum and History Center
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog
====================================================
19 Oct
19 Oct
7:49 a.m.
According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service
Manual
for the TM100-1 and TM100-2:
Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives
Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks
While "CORRECT" in some twisted perverted way, that is VERY misleading.
Many folks reading that would misinterpret it as implying 80 tracks per
side (aka 96TPI), which it ISN'T. The -2 is the double sided version of
the -1. It is 40 tracks per side. Perhaps it's time to do as the
hard-drive manufacturers did and change the terminology. Both the -1 and
-2 are 40 CYLINDER.
Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5%
Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds
Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds
Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds
Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds
Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds
Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM
Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second
"Data Transfer Rate" is not a meaningful spec in this context!
Particularly following the acknowledgement that the drive was suitable for
recording modes besides MFM!
Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk, TM100-2
500Kb per disk
"Unformatted Cap." is assumed to be MFM.
BTW, the IBM "Hardware Maintenance and Service" manuals for the PC and XT
have a lot of pretty pictures of mechanical disassembly of Tandon TM 100-2
drives.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11 a.m.
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
By the way, in my earlier remarks about the 100 tpi Tandon drive, I
alleged that it was a TM100-4A. WRONG! It is a TM100-4R. Guess I
need new glasses :)
- don
According to
my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual
for the TM100-1 and TM100-2:
Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives
Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks
While "CORRECT" in some twisted perverted way, that is VERY misleading.
Many folks reading that would misinterpret it as implying 80 tracks per
side (aka 96TPI), which it ISN'T. The -2 is the double sided version of
the -1. It is 40 tracks per side. Perhaps it's time to do as the
hard-drive manufacturers did and change the terminology. Both the -1 and
-2 are 40 CYLINDER.
Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5%
Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds
Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds
Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds
Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds
Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds
Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM
Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second
"Data Transfer Rate" is not a meaningful spec in this context!
Particularly following the acknowledgement that the drive was suitable for
recording modes besides MFM!
Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk,
TM100-2 500Kb per disk
"Unformatted Cap." is assumed to be MFM.
BTW, the IBM "Hardware Maintenance and Service" manuals for the PC and XT
have a lot of pretty pictures of mechanical disassembly of Tandon TM 100-2
drives.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:47 a.m.
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12:55 p.m.
According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service
Manual
for the TM100-1 and TM100-2:
Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives
Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks
While
"CORRECT" in some twisted perverted way, that is VERY misleading. No, it's correct. Not only in some 'twisted
perverted way'.
The TM100-2 has 40 cylinders. Each contains 2 tracks (one on each side of
the disk). That's 80 tracks total.
And yes, this does mean that a PC 3.5" drive has 160 tracks (in 80
cylinders). I've seen that mentioned in manuals before as well....
While perhaps my use opf "twisted or perverted" may be bothersome, you
surely would not disagree that some people [incorrectly] refer to the
100-4 and 1.2M drives as an "80 track" drive. And you certainly won't
disagree that use of the word "cylinder" completely avoids the entire
ambiguity. Tandon does not appear to have EVER used the term "cylinder".
Perhaps some other flopy companies may have, but I can [unfortunately]
only seem to find it used by hard-drive companies.
If they HAD used "cylinders", then we wouldnb't be having this discussion.
In MICROCOMPUTERS, rather than DEC iron, SS v DS typically preceded 40T^H
Cylinder v 80 T^H Cylinder. Therefore, in SOME circles, "TRACK" was used
to refer to "tracks per side" rather than TOTAL tracks, just as
"Sectors"
meant "sectors per track" rather than TOTAL sectors.
Many folks reading that would misinterpret it as
implying 80 tracks per
side (aka 96TPI), which it ISN'T. The -2 is the double sided version of
the -1. It is 40 tracks per side. Perhaps it's time to do as the
hard-drive manufacturers did and change the terminology. Both the -1 and
-2 are 40 CYLINDER.
The term 'cylinder' applies to floppy drives and hard
drives AFAIK. BTW, the IBM
"Hardware Maintenance and Service" manuals for the PC and XT
have a lot of pretty pictures of mechanical disassembly of Tandon TM 100-2
drives.
Amazing!. The PC/AT one simply shows you how to replace the entire
(half-height) drives in that machine.
But the O&A Techref does contain several versions of the schematic for
these units.
1:56 p.m.
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3:17 p.m.
New subject: Corrupted terminology (Was: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
There are some other terms that seem to have been
corrupted by common
usage. A PC CGA monitor and a PC VGA monitor are _both_ RGB monitors
. . .
Don't forget "Monochrome monitor" to refer to MDA compatible.
And we probably shouldn't resume discussion of what a "Megabyte" is :-)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
12:57 p.m.
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
The term 'cylinder' applies to floppy drives and hard drives AFAIK.
Sectors, Tracks and Cylinders are three different measurements.
If it is a single sided floppy, Tracks = Cylinders.
If it is double sided, Tracks = 2 * Cylinders.
Confusing huh?
Dwight
1:08 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote:
Sectors, Tracks and Cylinders are three different
measurements.
If it is a single sided floppy, Tracks = Cylinders.
If it is double sided, Tracks = 2 * Cylinders.
Confusing huh?
If used consistently, that's fine. And it is better than much of common
usage. But there are also some people [right or wrong] who use "tracks"
to mean "tracks per side", which we call "cylinders". Their usage as
such
makes it difficult to tell when they say "80 track" whether they are
referring to a 360K or 1.2M drive.
In a similar way, there are some people who call 360K "9 sector", and some
who call it "720 sector". But at least there, there isn't any overlap of
the same number for two different usages.
Surely EVERYBODY would agree that "40 cylinder, SS or DS" is significantly
less ambiguous than "40 track v 80 track" when referring to TM 100-1 amd
-2.
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219
3:54 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote:
But let's muddy the conversational waters a bit :) I have no quarrel
with describing a 360k DOS disk as 40 cylinders, but let's consider a
disk such as the Xerox 820-II 5.25" DSDD. Unlike the DOS disk, the
Xerox does not read side 0 first and then continue on to side 1.
Instead, it reads track 0 side 0 and then goes on to read track 1
side 0. Is not it reasonable - perhaps more reasonable - to call the
Xerox disk an 80 track disk? Or better, an 80 track 48 tpi disk.
- don
Sectors, Tracks and Cylinders are three different
measurements.
If it is a single sided floppy, Tracks = Cylinders.
If it is double sided, Tracks = 2 * Cylinders.
Confusing huh?
If used consistently, that's fine. And it is better than much of common
usage. But there are also some people [right or wrong] who use "tracks"
to mean "tracks per side", which we call "cylinders". Their usage as
such
makes it difficult to tell when they say "80 track" whether they are
referring to a 360K or 1.2M drive. In a similar way, there are some people who call 360K
"9 sector", and some
who call it "720 sector". But at least there, there isn't any overlap of
the same number for two different usages.
Surely EVERYBODY would agree that "40 cylinder, SS or DS" is significantly
less ambiguous than "40 track v 80 track" when referring to TM 100-1 amd
-2.
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219
4:31 p.m.
New subject: more weirdities (Was: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Don Maslin wrote:
But let's muddy the conversational waters a bit :)
I have no quarrel
with describing a 360k DOS disk as 40 cylinders, but let's consider a
disk such as the Xerox 820-II 5.25" DSDD. Unlike the DOS disk, the
Xerox does not read side 0 first and then continue on to side 1.
Instead, it reads track 0 side 0 and then goes on to read track 1
side 0. Is not it reasonable - perhaps more reasonable - to call the
Xerox disk an 80 track disk? Or better, an 80 track 48 tpi disk.
In addition to disk formats that use all of the sectors of one track, and
then use all of the sectors of the same cylinder's track on the other
side, and then advance to the next cylinder:
Some formats (particularly ones that were once single sided, and then
expanded into DS formats) use all of one side and then use all of the
second side starting over at cylinder 0 of the second side.
Some start over at a later cylinder of the second side (so that the same
number of tracks are "Reserved/skipped" on both sides).
Some use all of the first side and then use the second side counting DOWN.
Thus, after Side 0 Cylinder 38, then side 0 cylinde 39, then Side 1
cylinder 39, then side 1 cylinder 38, . . .
That eliminates having to do a seek back to track^H^H^H^H^H cylinder 0.
Some that use various logical sector skewing will treat the entire
cylinder as a track, thus using one or more sectors from one side followed
by one or more sectors from the other side, back and forth.
And then, there are some that are WEIRD.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
5:56 p.m.
New subject: more weirdities (Was: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Don Maslin wrote:
Nah! Really?
- don
But let's muddy the conversational waters a
bit :) I have no quarrel
with describing a 360k DOS disk as 40 cylinders, but let's consider a
disk such as the Xerox 820-II 5.25" DSDD. Unlike the DOS disk, the
Xerox does not read side 0 first and then continue on to side 1.
Instead, it reads track 0 side 0 and then goes on to read track 1
side 0. Is not it reasonable - perhaps more reasonable - to call the
Xerox disk an 80 track disk? Or better, an 80 track 48 tpi disk.
In addition to disk formats that use all of the sectors of one track, and
then use all of the sectors of the same cylinder's track on the other
side, and then advance to the next cylinder:
Some formats (particularly ones that were once single sided, and then
expanded into DS formats) use all of one side and then use all of the
second side starting over at cylinder 0 of the second side.
Some start over at a later cylinder of the second side (so that the same
number of tracks are "Reserved/skipped" on both sides).
Some use all of the first side and then use the second side counting DOWN.
Thus, after Side 0 Cylinder 38, then side 0 cylinde 39, then Side 1
cylinder 39, then side 1 cylinder 38, . . .
That eliminates having to do a seek back to track^H^H^H^H^H cylinder 0.
Some that use various logical sector skewing will treat the entire
cylinder as a track, thus using one or more sectors from one side followed
by one or more sectors from the other side, back and forth.
And then, there are some that are WEIRD. --
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
20 Oct
20 Oct
11:12 a.m.
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19 Oct
19 Oct
7:53 a.m.
New subject: Pins broken in sockets?
Any idea what causes the pin breakage described below?
George
=========================================================
George L. Rachor Jr. george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com
United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Doug Coward wrote:
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:41:47 -0400
"Bill Sudbrink"
<bill(a)chipware.com> said:
I've hunted around on the web to no avail...
Can anybody give me the specs on these?
According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual
for the TM100-1 and TM100-2:
Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives
Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks
Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5%
Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds
Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds
Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds
Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds
Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds
Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM
Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second
Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk, TM100-2 500Kb per disk
Bill,
Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot
disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out
and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the
cleaning.
So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets.
Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets.
Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers
and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll
be ready to fire this thing up. :)
--Doug
====================================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work)
Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home)
Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Analog Computer Museum and History Center
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog
====================================================
9:25 a.m.
New subject: Pins broken in sockets?
Any idea what causes the pin breakage described
below?
> So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets.
> Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets.
Not a clue. In my recent/ongoing IMSAI restoration, the
Cromemco 4FDC floppy disk controller had three chips with
one pin each broken in the socket. Each was broken where
the pin narrows down. Bad ASCII art:
| |
| |
\ /
\ /
| | < BREAK HERE
| |
\ /
-
Maybe they were stressed when originally inserted and
additional thermal stress finally broke them. Also, in
my case, all of the exposed metal on all of the pins on
all of the chips was tarnished, almost black. Maybe the
tarnishing process had something to do with it.
Bill Sudbrink
8:38 a.m.
New subject: Pins broken in sockets?
At 02:25 PM 10/19/99 -0400, Bill wrote:
Hmmm, another Cromemco board bad this way? I
found the pins not only
tarnished black but corroded through on a 16KZ, usually in a group on the
same IC. The bad chips were all made by TI. Maybe there was some chemical
residue from Cromemco's wave soldering that did this? Anyway, I had to use
tweezers to remove the end narrow portion of the pins from the sockets.
-Dave
Any idea what
causes the pin breakage described below?
> So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets.
> Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets.
Not a clue. In my recent/ongoing IMSAI restoration, the
Cromemco 4FDC floppy disk controller had three chips with
one pin each broken in the socket. Each was broken where
the pin narrows down. Bad ASCII art:
11:28 a.m.
New subject: Pins broken in sockets?
Any idea what causes the pin breakage described
below?
> So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets.
> Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets.
Not a clue. In my recent/ongoing IMSAI restoration, the
Cromemco 4FDC floppy disk controller had three chips with
one pin each broken in the socket. Each was broken where
the pin narrows down. Bad ASCII art:
10:09 a.m.
New subject: Pins broken in sockets?
"Bill Sudbrink" <bill(a)chipware.com> wrote:
| |
| |
\ /
\ /
| | < BREAK HERE
| |
\ /
-
Hi
What I've seem in the past is corrosion. It is usually
also related to the plating being cracked during assembly.
The two work against each other, the crack makes a
localized place that the mosture and any stray salts
or chemicals can hide and do its work. Having the pins
plated actually makes this problem worse because of the
differences in metals. The blackened leads are those that
have a high amount of silver in the plating. Normally,
these will work well be just reseating. They still have
the problem if the plating is fractured.
Dwight
9:36 a.m.
Bill,
Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot
disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out
and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the
cleaning.
So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets.
Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets.
Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers
and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll
be ready to fire this thing up. :)
--Doug
Great to hear. Again, I hope that the disks survived the
trips through the airport metal detectors and that our
drives are aligned close enough for them to work. I have
a fairly large stash of untested 2114s if you can't find
any locally. Remember, you can always start out with only
one 527 board to see how things are going.
Bill
10:03 a.m.
"Bill Sudbrink" <bill(a)chipware.com> wrote:
Hi Doug
Watch out for the Jamco 2114's. The last bunch I got were
more than 70% bad. These are old parts that they get from various
sources and they have no way to test them. Of course, they
are glade to replace any that are bad but then you become
their tester, at little cost.
Dwight
Bill,
Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot
disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out
and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the
cleaning.
So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets.
Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets.
Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers
and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll
be ready to fire this thing up. :)
--Doug
Great to hear. Again, I hope that the disks survived the
trips through the airport metal detectors and that our
drives are aligned close enough for them to work. I have
a fairly large stash of untested 2114s if you can't find
any locally. Remember, you can always start out with only
one 527 board to see how things are going.
Bill
9038
days inactive
9039
days old
19 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bill＠chipware.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
ddameron＠earthlink.net -
donm＠cts.com -
elvey＠hal.com -
george＠racsys.rt.rain.com -
mranalog＠home.com