5 Jul
2019
5 Jul
'19
1:52 p.m.
Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be
displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. Several of
these will be up-and-running. Original and current owners will join
early Apple employees in a panel to discuss the computers, why they were
purchased, how they were used, and what the owners plan to do in the
future. So, buy your tickets online now. :)
http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/
-Evan
5 Jul
5 Jul
3:24 p.m.
That is amazing. When do you ever get a photo op with a bunch of apple 1
systems (which I hope is a thing).
I thought the subject was a typo until I saw the sender lol
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 4:27 PM Evan Koblentz via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1
computers will be
displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. Several of
these will be up-and-running. Original and current owners will join
early Apple employees in a panel to discuss the computers, why they were
purchased, how they were used, and what the owners plan to do in the
future. So, buy your tickets online now. :)
http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/
-Evan
5:16 p.m.
real or replica?
we? might like a? replica for display..oddly though with the thousands? of piles of boards
heck we may even have a real one... never bothered to look for one in the STUFF!
My classic? mode is? if I do not know what it is? put it in a box and look at later...and
that? stuff goes back to 1979.... Ed#
In a message dated 7/5/2019 3:24:46 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org
writes:
That is amazing. When do you ever get a photo op with a bunch of apple 1
systems (which I hope is a thing).
I thought the subject was a typo until I saw the sender lol
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 4:27 PM Evan Koblentz via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1
computers will be
displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. Several of
these will be up-and-running. Original and current owners will join
early Apple employees in a panel to discuss the computers, why they were
purchased, how they were used, and what the owners plan to do in the
future. So, buy your tickets online now. :)
http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/
-Evan
5:21 p.m.
real or replica?
Real! That's the whole point.
we? might like a? replica for display..oddly though
with the thousands? of piles of boards heck we may even have a real one... never bothered
to look for one in the STUFF!
My classic? mode is? if I do not know what it is? put it in a box and look at later...and
that? stuff goes back to 1979.... Ed#
You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of
decent-condition Apple 1 boards.
5:45 p.m.
Time? to? start? sorting? boards!Although...? I? am not? sure? if I will live long enough
to get though all of it...
What? are the? replicas? ?gong? for? Evan?
Ed#
In a message dated 7/5/2019 5:21:17 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at snarc.net
writes:
real or replica?
Real! That's the whole point.
we? might like a? replica for display..oddly though
with the thousands? of piles of boards heck we may even have a real one... never bothered
to look for one in the STUFF!
My classic? mode is? if I do not know what it is? put it in a box and look at later...and
that? stuff goes back to 1979.... Ed#
You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of
decent-condition Apple 1 boards.
7 Jul
7 Jul
4:10 p.m.
Actually the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures. A reproduction with
date correct components cost as much as 5 figures.
A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150
Cheers,
Corey
corey cohen
u??o? ???o?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2019, at 8:48 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
What are the replicas gong for Evan?
A perfect reproduction -- for example a Mimeo will entirely date-code-correct components
-- can go for four figures.
Most repros/replicas aren't at that level.
8 Jul
8 Jul
7:43 a.m.
Actually the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just
over 4 figures. A
reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures.
A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150
No idea why people would go 5 figures on a replica that is still a
replica?
The only reason for the high price on the original is Steve Jobs (reality
distortion field.)
- Ethan
8:02 a.m.
On 7/8/19 7:43 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
Practically speaking, what's the difference between a close working
replica and the original? Are the bits somehow imbued with some
additional spiritual property?
The replica may actually be more reliable.
--Chuck
Actually the
cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures.? A
reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures.
A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150
No idea why people would go 5 figures on a replica that is still a replica?
The only reason for the high price on the original is Steve Jobs
(reality distortion field.)
8:10 a.m.
The high price isn?t a Steve Jobs distortion field. The Apple-1 was collectible in the
1980?s before Jobs became the one we all remember. The Apple-1 was really the 1st
collectible personal computer and it was produced in very limited numbers for a very short
time and was tied the grandparent to the Apple II and all other Apple products.
As for the replicas being more reliable, only if they are built using modern sockets with
modern caps and TTL chips where possible. The original boards still differ a lot from
the replicas because the techniques used to make the PCB boards are no longer used or
legal due to environmental laws and the dying art of how they made PCBs in the 70?s.
As for why a replica can cost so much, look at the prices for some of the items on the
Apple-1 like the ceramic 6502, the shift registers or RAM. They aren?t expensive because
they are on an Apple-1, but there are people who collect those vintage chips also.
Cheers,
Corey
corey cohen
u??o? ???o?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 8, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 7/8/19 7:43 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
Practically speaking, what's the difference between a close working
replica and the original? Are the bits somehow imbued with some
additional spiritual property?
The replica may actually be more reliable.
--Chuck
Actually
the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures. A
reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures.
A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150
No idea why people would go 5 figures on a replica that is still a replica?
The only reason for the high price on the original is Steve Jobs
(reality distortion field.) 
12:59 p.m.
The value of Apple 1s are clearly a combination of many things. They're about a factor
of 500x because they were Apples first product. There is no question about that. Other
factors include limited run. The fact that may were turned in for credit to get an Apple
II made them even rarer.
Value is what the buyer will pay.
At $600+ they were not attractive to me at the time because at that time, I could get a
working, used, S-100 for $400.
Even when the Apple II came out, its limited expansion were not of interest to me.
Apple's hardware design was poor ( the disk system is an example ). Another was
blowing out printer interfaces because you tuned them on in the wrong order. Even the
selection of the 6502 was based on how cheap one could make a computer for the masses (
not saying that the 6502 wasn't a good design, only that the selection was based on
cost, not quality received ).
Rare is not equal to valuable. Rare and desired combine to make value. If I didn't
expect to make a profit I'd not personally buy an apple 1 for more than $200. I
don't have the funds to buy one at the current rate. Like many stocks, I personally
think it is over valued. I think that some day the value will drop. I couldn't guess
as to how much. The only people growing up today that would pay anything like that amount,
would only pay that much because they expected to make a profit. It is just an investment.
As a museum item, it is interesting.
I do wish I'd bought one when I started. I'd not have it today, though. When the
value went over a few tens of thousands, I'm sure I'd have sold it.
All stated, buy me, are just opinions. Done take offense as none was intended.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of corey cohen via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 8:10 AM
To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
The high price isn?t a Steve Jobs distortion field. The Apple-1 was collectible in the
1980?s before Jobs became the one we all remember. The Apple-1 was really the 1st
collectible personal computer and it was produced in very limited numbers for a very short
time and was tied the grandparent to the Apple II and all other Apple products.
As for the replicas being more reliable, only if they are built using modern sockets with
modern caps and TTL chips where possible. The original boards still differ a lot from
the replicas because the techniques used to make the PCB boards are no longer used or
legal due to environmental laws and the dying art of how they made PCBs in the 70?s.
As for why a replica can cost so much, look at the prices for some of the items on the
Apple-1 like the ceramic 6502, the shift registers or RAM. They aren?t expensive because
they are on an Apple-1, but there are people who collect those vintage chips also.
Cheers,
Corey
corey cohen
u??o? ???o?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 8, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 7/8/19 7:43 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
Practically speaking, what's the difference between a close working
replica and the original? Are the bits somehow imbued with some
additional spiritual property?
The replica may actually be more reliable.
--Chuck
Actually
the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures. A
reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures.
A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150
No idea why people would go 5 figures on a replica that is still a replica?
The only reason for the high price on the original is Steve Jobs
(reality distortion field.)
1:10 p.m.
The only people growing up today that would pay
anything like that amount, would only pay that much because they expected to make a
profit. It is just an investment.
Don't underestimate the force of "bragging rights" to people who can
afford such things. Many of them buy an Apple 1 because they can, not
because it's an investment.
Anyway: we're having at least 10 of 'em at VCF West, did I mention that? :)
2:32 p.m.
Yes Evan, you mentioned that. Eventually there will be people settling estates. The first
ones sold will do well but eventually, even those that want bragging rights will have
little interest in such items. Apple is already at a point that they no longer have a
hold on the market. They may be able to get a couple more geeky gotta have items, like the
watch, but their days are already numbered.
Their computers are virtually unrepairable, if something goes wrong( talk to anyone that
has one but maybe just because of their own policies, not that the hardware is any worse
or better than anyone else's ).
I expect that Apple-1s will hold their value for at least the rest of my life time, if not
go up more. So, what should I care.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Evan Koblentz via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:10 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
The only people growing up today that would pay
anything like that amount, would only pay that much because they expected to make a
profit. It is just an investment.
Don't underestimate the force of "bragging rights" to people who can
afford such things. Many of them buy an Apple 1 because they can, not
because it's an investment.
Anyway: we're having at least 10 of 'em at VCF West, did I mention that? :)
2:43 p.m.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote:
To some yuppies, the cost is something to brag about being able to afford.
To the truly wealthy, it is irrelevant. If Bill Gates wanted one, he
would not have to economize elsewhere to afford it. And there are a lot
of billionaires today. It would be a trivial expense for the nostalgia,
or the "I wanted one, and couldn't get one then; but now I can."
For your panel, a few questions to put to them:
1) Did you get one when they were current, or more recently?
2) For each of those two groups, WHY did you get one?
3) Did you later get an Apple ][?
The only
people growing up today that would pay anything like that amount,
would only pay that much because they expected to make a profit. It is just
an investment.
Don't underestimate the force of "bragging rights" to
people who can afford
such things. Many of them buy an Apple 1 because they can, not because it's
an investment.
Anyway: we're having at least 10 of 'em at VCF West, did I mention that? :)
8:25 a.m.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 17:02, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Practically speaking, what's the difference between a close working
replica and the original? Are the bits somehow imbued with some
additional spiritual property?
The replica may actually be more reliable.
Spoken like a non-collector. :-)
It's OK, it's not condemnatory, I've just noticed some people are like that.
I have seen a handful of original Leonardo da Vinci works. "Girl with
ermine" was the best, for me, in Krakow.
But I had the chance to see the Mona Lisa in the Louvre and the Last
Supper in Milan. Both would have meant paying and queuing for hours. I
said no.
I'm not that into them. But of course millions do every year.
I got a thrill hearing a player piano play a roll cut by Gershwin
himself playing Rhapsody in Blue, though.
Partly it depends what you're into, partly convenience, partly preference.
I never wear designer clothes and think the whole idea is silly. (I
was much impressed by Naomi Klein's /No Logo/ but I was like this
before it. Recommended read anyway. It's a Liff in the Douglas Adams
sense.) But designer jeans, say, I'd expect to be comfier and fit
better. Designer *T-shirts* strike me as just ridiculous. It's an
ordinary tee with a name printed on it. The book taught me how
ludicrous that was.
Would you consider working with an emulator of a vintage machine just
as good as the real thing? If a Raspberry Pi, costing $35 and running
on milli-Amps, could save you the hassle of running a full-size
minicomputer on expensive 3-phase power and cooling -- would that be
enough?
If yes, then fine. Perhaps you like the PiDP-11.
If no, then I get you. Part of the fun for me is that it's the real
thing. I don't just want to play games on emulators. I want to
experience the speed, the noise, the smells, the whole experience of
using a vintage computer.
But other people just want to _own_ one and would be happy with the
experience of the emulator. They'd prefer their rare machine, in
proper original packaging, safe in a clean dry place, and using the
emulator for the fun of old games.
Both are legitimate to me.
My vintage machines are often a bit grubby. I don't care if they
_look_ new but I want them to _work_ and work well. I max out the RAM,
fit bigger disks, etc. I am not much bothered if it is stock or mint
condition but working is important.
For others, original packaging and it looking nice is.
Thus, Retrobr1te and all that. I'd never bother.
It just takes all sorts.
--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
9:19 a.m.
On 7/8/19 8:25 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
Spoken like a non-collector. :-)
I suppose that's the root of it. I'm basically a pragmatist. I give
away old hardware that no longer has any use to me. When I am
eventually forced to downsize, (or my widow is) most of the stuff will
go either to the recyclers or to the landfill. I am not my possessions.
I recall the Homebrew CC at SLAC auditorium where the Apple I was rolled
out for a special price. Since I already had a MITS box, I wasn't very
enthusiastic about laying out cash for a single-board microcomputer--a
feeling shared by several other people I knew. At any rate, if I'd
have sprung for one, it'd be gone by now, as its utility has long passed.
While I can appreciate painted artworks for the genius behind them, I'm
fully aware that they're just blobs of paint on a bit of canvas or wood
and that an accurate replica could be fashioned without too much trouble
using modern technology.
What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however it's preserved. I'm
often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon
which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been
invaluable in this respect.
As far as owning a watch that was worn by Charles Lindbergh, okay, if it
keeps good time; otherwise, not so much.
--Chuck
11:09 a.m.
On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:19:09AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 7/8/19 8:25 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
Yeah. I was a proud owner of Amiga 2000C... or B. A big box with place
for cards, and a memory extension inside (i.e. one slot filled), and
two click-click-click-ing floppy drives. And a standalone mech
keyboard. And green monocolor monitor. When I went to buy a 486, I had
to sell it in second hand shop to raise money. It went for 600 Polish
zloty (about 1/5 of 486 price), which (I estimate) was about 200-300
buckies at the time. Now they tell me (bastards!) that said keyboard
alone can go for 1000+ euros. And never mind the big box, mem extender
and the rest.
But like you say. Amiga had less _practical_ value at that time than a
lousy PC, which came with a hard drive (finally, I could install Linux
and run LaTeX on it) and VGA (Doom!! UFO: Enemy Unknown!!!!), color
monitor, not blinking at 640x400... Much better for anything I wanted
to do with a computer then and now.
So be it. I rarely do such things as remembering past decisions which
later proved to be wrong, and bitching and whipping myself in guilt -
especially if at the particular time it was the best decision I could
have made.
Now if any of you guys ever see an Amiga 2000 with small green happy
dragon stickered to the keyboard, say "hello, little ami" from me.
Spoken like a non-collector. :-)
I suppose that's the root of it. I'm basically a pragmatist. I give
away old hardware that no longer has any use to me. When I am
eventually forced to downsize, (or my widow is) most of the stuff will
go either to the recyclers or to the landfill. I am not my possessions.
I recall the Homebrew CC at SLAC auditorium where the Apple I was rolled
out for a special price. Since I already had a MITS box, I wasn't very
enthusiastic about laying out cash for a single-board microcomputer--a
feeling shared by several other people I knew. At any rate, if I'd
have sprung for one, it'd be gone by now, as its utility has long passed. While I can appreciate painted artworks for the genius
behind them, I'm
fully aware that they're just blobs of paint on a bit of canvas or wood
and that an accurate replica could be fashioned without too much trouble
using modern technology.
What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however it's preserved. I'm
often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon
which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been
invaluable in this respect.
I stick around here mostly for learning. I am almost an informational
omnivore (limiting to subjects of interest at the time), so I get
everything. Stories about smoking caps. Or how a mainframe warmed
water in open swimming pool. Or even how John Titor swindled Apple I
board supposed to be owned by Guy D from under his nose and now sits
on many such boards, retired and sipping pinacolada. Reading archives
of this list and planning whose basement to rummage in a night after
funeral. C'mon folks. Let's make cruel jokes at him. He cannot do a
shit about it, or else he will ruin his future :-).
As far as owning a watch that was worn by Charles
Lindbergh, okay, if it
keeps good time; otherwise, not so much.
You have not weared a watch if you did not try ones from Salvadore
Dali. The lousy watchmaker's works not only cannot keep up the time,
they even cannot keep up the shape.
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
1:47 p.m.
On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 01:30:36PM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
At 01:09 PM 7/8/2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
Cool. I have got the number from some keyboard-0-prn websites, given
in Deutsche Marks, translated liberally to more current currency. I
cannot tell if number was right, but if it was right few years ago then
I would expect it to only go up over time. Lucky you!
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
Now they tell me (bastards!) that said keyboard
alone can go for 1000+ euros. And never mind the big box, mem extender
and the rest.
What? Why? I must have a few in the warehouse...
8:02 p.m.
Maybe I should Google this but I thought John Titor was the man claiming to
be from the future and looking for an IBM 5100 for the ability to run APL.
I'm not familiar with any apple 1 story but I remember him posting and
calling in to a night time radio show. I didn't follow everything so I
coulda missed something or maybe it was a different Titor claimee.
Maybe he'd be one of the folks who brings one? :-)
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 1:09 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Or even how John Titor swindled Apple I
board supposed to be owned by Guy D from under his nose and now sits
on many such boards, retired and sipping pinacolada.
8:24 p.m.
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 1:09 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> Or even how John Titor swindled Apple I
> board supposed to be owned by Guy D from under his nose and now sits
> on many such boards, retired and sipping pinacolada.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
Maybe I should Google this but I thought John Titor
was the man claiming to
be from the future and looking for an IBM 5100 for the ability to run APL.
I'm not familiar with any apple 1 story but I remember him posting and
calling in to a night time radio show. I didn't follow everything so I
coulda missed something or maybe it was a different Titor claimee.
Maybe he'd be one of the folks who brings one? :-)
I have publicly offered:
If John Titor will give me a ONE WAY ride to 1960, I will get him his
5100, with both BASIC AND APL, and make some investments to fund his
entire project. The investments will include only a few Apple 1
computers, because they will need to be discreet and low profile, although
it would be very tempting to make a few "adjustments" to history.
If the ride is ROUND-TRIP, then all he gets is a good look at a 5100.
I'll take the long way back.
8:47 p.m.
On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 10:02:27PM -0500, John Herron wrote:
Maybe I should Google this but I thought John Titor
was the man claiming to
be from the future and looking for an IBM 5100 for the ability to run APL.
That is him.
I'm not familiar with any apple 1 story but I
remember him posting and
calling in to a night time radio show. I didn't follow everything so I
coulda missed something or maybe it was a different Titor claimee.
I thought that some fun could be made of him: invent some stories
about how he conducts various petty crimes in a past in order to get
hold of many precious classic computers. So that he could easily
retire like some of use would like to (but no way, no Apple-1 for
us).
So, he could be sitting now (his "now", in the year, say, 2050),
reading archives of this group and spraying his pinacolada on the
monitor when he reads about his fictional misdeeds. And those stories
would have been from his past, so he could not go back to correct me,
for example, without changing his timeline.
Well, on the other hand, if he is some kind of local incognito saint
in the group, and I had no idea, than maybe making up stories about
him is not the best idea.
Is there any better way to play joke on John Titor?
Maybe he'd be one of the folks who brings one? :-)
Yes, and get caught in a photo...
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
9:04 p.m.
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
That is him.
I thought that some fun could be made of him: invent some stories
about how he conducts various petty crimes in a past in order to get
hold of many precious classic computers. So that he could easily
retire like some of use would like to (but no way, no Apple-1 for
us).
Be careful about taunting a time traveller.
He might read what you write and it might give him ideas.
Then you might suddenly find that he has become your grandfather. Or his
own grandfather.
9:54 p.m.
On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:04:38PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
>That is him.
>I thought that some fun could be made of him: invent some stories
[...]
Be careful about taunting a time traveller.
He might read what you write and it might give him ideas.
Ah. Ok, you have convinced me. Sorry, John Titor.
BTW, you would like a ride to the past? I would like a ride to the
future. Although from what I have seen so far, maybe not...
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
8 Jul
8 Jul
12:56 p.m.
On 7/8/19 9:19 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however
it's preserved. I'm
often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon
which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been
invaluable in this respect.
Thanks, Chuck. Keeping old information available is why I spend so much
time/money on doing it.
9 Jul
9 Jul
1:58 a.m.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 18:19, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however
it's preserved. I'm
often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon
which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been
invaluable in this respect.
I collect all the documentation I can find (including my own old notes
when I can find them). It's really hard to figure out exactly how
something works when documentation is lost and there's nobody around
with the knowledge.
When I visited Ise shrine in Japan some years ago they were in the
middle of building a completely new wooden bridge beside the existing
one. They were building new temples as well. Turned out that every
twenty years they routinely rebuild *everything*, including the items
inside the temples and buildings. Then they tear down the old ones
(and use the old material at other sites around the country). And
still they claimed that the temples. bridges, items etc. had been
there since around 1200 AD. I was a bit baffled about this, but when
I had lunch in the nearest town a waiter noticed the foreigner and
gave me a booklet to read. It was all explained there. It's simple
enough: What they feel as important to preserve is the knowledge about
how to build these things. The craftmanship and the artistry. 20 years
is just about right - it's enough to hand over the craft to another
generation, with overlap. And they've been doing this for hundreds of
years.
So, what is worth preserving is the *howto*, not the actual old things
which would just detoriate more and more over time and eventually
disappear. That's just "stuff", and immaterial, as it were.
And, as I once witnessed a Viking ship replica going under in bad
weather due to something not fully correct in the understanding of
exactly how to construct a specific part of the bottom of the ship, I
can fully appreciate the thinking. Knowledge gained over hundreds of
years in wooden ship building can be lost over a generation or two,
even if there's still a parallel tradition of building other types of
boats. Which turned out not to be enough to understand how it was
done. It can be painfully difficult to recreate, figure out, and
document something that's lost, even if you have an old original in
bad shape to look at. Which is why they've worked for decades at e.g.
Roskilde in Denmark to recreate the knowledge. And the last time I
visited that site they still couldn't build as well as the old
builders, there was a newly built replica of a small boat where they
had a beatifully preserved original nearby - the original still looked
better. Give them a decade or two more, and it'll improve I'm sure.
9:12 a.m.
Tor Arntsen via cctalk writes:
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 18:19, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
This was by far the biggest challenge I had when writing the 3B2/400
simulator for SIMH. Documentation was scarce or nonexistent for almost
every aspect of the 3B2 system board internals, and I had to work out a
lot of it myself by watching a logic analyzer.
Thankfully, as the emulator progressed and word got out, it attracted
the attention of some people with very useful documentation who kindly
offered it to me. I've been hoarding what I can find and scanning it as
fast as possible to get it all archived online in digital form as well
as maintaining the original physical copies.
But as a result, I'm keenly aware of how much this stuff is ephemeral.
There are still lots and lots of AT&T publications relating to the 3B2
that are (as far as I can tell) lost to history and probably gone
forever.
-Seth
--
Seth Morabito
Poulsbo, WA, USA
web at loomcom.com
What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b],
however it's preserved. I'm
often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon
which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been
invaluable in this respect.
I collect all the documentation I can find (including my own old notes
when I can find them). It's really hard to figure out exactly how
something works when documentation is lost and there's nobody around
with the knowledge. 
6 Jul
6 Jul
12:12 a.m.
At 08:21 PM 5/07/2019 -0400, you wrote:
You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's
the current range of
decent-condition Apple 1 boards.
I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what
that mistake cost me.
http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm
Guy
3:28 p.m.
On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 at 09:12, Guy Dunphy via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what
that mistake cost me.
http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm
Sad reading...
--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
6:51 p.m.
On 7/6/2019 1:12 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
At 08:21 PM 5/07/2019 -0400, you wrote:
Just like the stock market, Next week it could be vintage WWI army boots
worn my Mother Inlaws.
It the Apple I was so great, why did the COLLECTORS not buy them then?
Now a 6501 CPU would be worth a pretty penny.
I wonder what has more sales Saturday July 6 2019, A PDP/8 in some
form, A PI computer, or a 6502 Home brew computer?
Ben.
Ps: I have a one of kind 18 bit computer lurking in a DE1 FPGA card, and
I am not getting any offers for its sale. Replace your PDP-8 with
something bigger. :) 1.5 uS core memory cycle.
PPS: A Deluxe 20 bit computer coming REAL SOON.
You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000.
That's the current range of
decent-condition Apple 1 boards.
I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what
that mistake cost me.
http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm
Guy
6:59 p.m.
Not many collectors back when the Apple1 came out!?
Not? sure either if many understood? what that? single board computer? would? birth in
the? way? of a line? of? follow ons.?
Sometimes? the future is not? known!
Ed#
In a message dated 7/6/2019 6:51:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org
writes:
It ((If)) the Apple I was so great, why did the COLLECTORS not buy them then?
7:18 p.m.
On 7/6/2019 7:59 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
Not many collectors back when the Apple1 came out!
While the CHEAP 6502 is remembered with the Apple
we must not forget that the 16 pin 4K dram really made that computer
work. Regardless of the architecture, 32 KB is needed to do
any useful computing work, and 1975 was the start of affordable
memory.
PS: Ben's 18 bit computer is BETTER than a PDP 11, faster, simpler
and with *2 MORE Blinking lights and Switches*. 1.25 us Core (2.5 us
instruction time) vs the orginal PDP 11.
did I say more blinking lights. :)
11:02 p.m.
New subject: Apple ][ EPROM programmer Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
Guy said
I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of
my NOT buying an Apple I, and what that mistake cost me.
http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm
You mention you were not aware of any EPROM programmer boards for the Apple ][. I had one
for my taiwanese FORMOSA
Apple ][ clone and I recall it could do 2716s perhaps 2732s. It was dirt cheap relative to
locally bought computer gear
in Australia in 1982 like all the other clone cards on offer (Z80 Softcard, printer card,
language card, disk ][ card,
PAL colour card, 128k ramdisk card and so on) so we got the lot.
Since we had no accessible internet back then, everything was done via telexes and wire
transfers at the local Post Office
to Formosa's Taiwan office.
The clone programmer card was very similar in size, layout and appearance to this one but
I don't recall it was as
sparsely populated:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cider-EPROM-Programmer-VIA-for-Apple-II-Compute…
Steve
8 Jul
8 Jul
5:50 p.m.
On Jul 5, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at VCF West,
and we're working on getting more.
Why? That is, what?s the advantage of having 10+ instead of one or two?
The Apple I never did very much, so is there really much to actually show on them?
I hope they?re not crowding out anything more interesting.
-- Chris
6:16 p.m.
On Jul 5, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at VCF
West, and we're working on getting more.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2019, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote:
Why? That is, what?s the advantage of having 10+
instead of one or two?
I have heard that there is quite a bit of variation from one to the next.
But I haven't had the chance to see several side by side to compare.
It hadn't yet reached the stage of mass production of absolutley identical
units.
The PEOPLE who have them, and the stories about how they got into it are
also interesting.
Even the people who bought into it more recently.
"WHY?" "If you're willing to pay that kind of money, maybe you should
come look at some of the stuff that I no longer need."
The Apple I never did very much, so is there really
much to actually show on them?
I hope they?re not crowding out anything more interesting.
Not to worry. Evan is very capable of expanding the space if it gets too
crowded, rather than turning away anything that is more interesting.
If anything, having the crowds all clustered around the "artifacts of
divine provenance" will make it less crowded around the good stuff!
I hope that my health holds up well enough to fill the consignment area
with a few cubic meters of stuff that I need to get out of my house.
And, not to worry, I will not be bringing any Apple 1 computers.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
6:53 p.m.
Today I can
announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at VCF West, and we're
working on getting more.
Why? That is, what?s the advantage of having 10+ instead
of one or two? The Apple I never did very much, so is there really
much to actually show on them?
You'd be surprised. There is a whole library of software out there.
I hope they?re not crowding out anything
Nope.
Plenty of room for everyone.
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aek＠bitsavers.org -
barythrin＠gmail.com -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
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cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cmhanson＠eschatologist.net -
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