7 Jan
2001
7 Jan
'01
7:27 a.m.
While mulling over some ideas for software music synthesiser programs [I
just bought a copy of Reaktor - a software synth/sampler construction kit
of amazing complexity] I started wondering just how close to 'real' an
emulator ought to be. For example, the MiniMoog emulator has a replica of
the add-on A-400 oscillator, used to tune your Moog back up as it drifted
off pitch, which they all did more or less constantly. The documentation
mentions retaining this feature even though the emulation no longer
drifts.
But: why not? Shouldn't it drift, actually?
So I ask from a "purist's purist" view... shouldn't an emulator
contain
"failure modes" common to the machine emulated? And if it "breaks",
then
the poor "operator" is afforded the opportunity to diagnose and then
(hopefully) "fix" the problem.
My experience with the various PDP-11 systems I owned was like this. I
spent a *lot* of time doctoring the hardware.
The same thought could be applied to a software Moog Modular synthesiser
system. If a module 'breaks', you have to open up the code, find the
'defective' module and 'fix' it. One could continue this thought right
down to having models of components, a la SPICE and the other design
modelling software. Each component or module would then have a live/die
algorithm associated with it.
Imagine how thrilled Tony Duell would be with a PERQ emulator that
exhibited random 'hardware' failure modes (based on maintenance histories)
that then needed to be repaired at the 'component' level. Running, of
couse, on a palmtop.
Hopefully one could as well disable the "real-world hardware failure"
mode, in the case of wanting to just do something trivial, like program
the thing.
Silly questions, but also maybe valid....
Cheerz
John
7 Jan
7 Jan
8:59 a.m.
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11:03 a.m.
But: why
not? Shouldn't it drift, actually?
Hmm... This is a difficult problem. 
5:05 p.m.
ME TOO!!!
<Psycho mode>
I wish I could make that damn whistle stop so I could could go on with my
life please some one make it stop, no more whistle please...
</psycho mode>
To me the whistle just never stops and it doesn't require any extra effort
on my part.
Francois
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: "Real" emulation...
reason I perfer
to play my old piano. And often, I just whistle.
Me too, sometimes I wish I could get it to stop.
8:38 p.m.
I've also had injury to one of my ear nerve-endings. I know what
you mean, but by now I think I would miss it if it stopped. :^)
larry
ME TOO!!!
<Psycho mode>
I wish I could make that damn whistle stop so I could could go on with
my life please some one make it stop, no more whistle please...
</psycho mode>
To me the whistle just never stops and it doesn't require any extra
effort on my part.
Francois
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: "Real" emulation...
Reply to:
lgwalker(a)look.ca
reason I
perfer to play my old piano. And often, I just whistle.
Me too, sometimes I wish I could get it to stop.
8 Jan
8 Jan
5:52 a.m.
On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, John Lawson wrote:
My experience with the various PDP-11 systems I
owned was like this. I
spent a *lot* of time doctoring the hardware.
Aside from the hobbyist aspect, why would one want to emulate failures so
that they should have to waste time debugging them? The beauty of
emulators in this regard is that they aren't subject to the failures of
the original hardware.
That being said, if you're such a purist and want to get the real
experience, perhaps an option could be added to the emulator that can be
enabled or disabled by the user that triggers failures now and then.
Taking it one step further, perhaps you can have a quotient that
determines how often the failures are. Something between 0.0 (no
failures) and 1 (dead).
John, cut down on the Curry intake :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:33 a.m.
At 08:52 AM 1/8/2001 -0800, Sellam wrote:
That being said, if you're such a purist and want
to get the real
experience, perhaps an option could be added to the emulator that can be
enabled or disabled by the user that triggers failures now and then.
Taking it one step further, perhaps you can have a quotient that
determines how often the failures are. Something between 0.0 (no
failures) and 1 (dead).
If such a system could be built (and I'm sure it could) it would be a
fabulous training device for people. Imagine doing this same sort of thing
on a PC (which fails more than my PDP-11 in my experience!) you could help
thousands of people.
--Chuck
4:25 p.m.
New subject: PERQs for emulation (was: "Real" emulation)
On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Chuck McManis wrote:
If such a system could be built (and I'm sure it
could) it would be a
fabulous training device for people. Imagine doing this same sort of thing
on a PC (which fails more than my PDP-11 in my experience!) you could help
thousands of people.
Surely anyone should be able to realize that the best machine for an
emulator is a PERQ, which, if certain AMD bit-slice processor chips
were still being produced, we could all build. The system is user
microprogammable, and some code for emulation, e.g., 6502 uP, IIRC,
already exists. More than one type of emulation in microcode can be
run at the same time, so, for example, one could be running the Accent
OS with it's Sapphire window manager, while also running other
microcode to emulate some other architecture, yet, have that other
architecture make use of the Sapphire window manager.
The system is predictably flakey, yet reasonably reliable enough for
reasonably serious use (e.g., I wrote a book on it using the Mint
document processing software, which is something like Scribe or
LaTeX), created graphics for the book on the PERQ, and printed it on
the PERQ's laser printer, which, like with the NeXT, is driven
directly by the machine's CPU. In addition, a PERQ, which, depending
on the model number, has four or five fans, which can help heat a
basement due to the good circulation of heat dissipated.
The Z80 processor used for I/O is also user programmable, so, one
can have some fun with that as well.
If they'd only included a TCP/IP stack with the PERQs, which did, BTW,
have ethernet boards that some sort of CMU (I forget what it's called
at the moment) and Cambridge Ring ethernet networking. Ah well.
Has anyone ever videotaped the fantastic PERQ graphics demos, or the
surrealistic animated computer artwork called "Strawberry Fairchild"?
It would be a shame to lose these if the last PERQs quit PERQing.
--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd(a)perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD
10:01 p.m.
New subject: PERQs for emulation (was: "Real" emulation)
"R. D. Davis" wrote:
Surely anyone should be able to realize that the best machine for an
emulator is a PERQ, which, if certain AMD bit-slice processor chips
were still being produced, we could all build. The system is user
Why are you so cruel!?!? I've been looking for a PERQ but never found
one at least here in Italy. They seem to be a UL almost like Lisp
Machines of Xerox D-machines. I would trade my 11/40 and my VAX FT 3000
for one of these!
microprogammable, and some code for emulation, e.g.,
6502 uP, IIRC,
already exists. More than one type of emulation in microcode can be
Writing micorcode isn't a job for the faint of heart. At university we
built an 8080 using 2901 bit slices and it was quite a task but sure
was the fastest CP/M machine I've ever used; F80 was lightning fast
compared to another Z80A CP/M box.
e.
========================================================================
Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella(a)softstar.it
Soft*Star srl eb(a)vax.cnuce.cnr.it
InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092
Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487
10143 Torino, Italy
Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,
manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals
==========================================================================
9 Jan
9 Jan
7:10 a.m.
New subject: PERQs for emulation (was: "Real" emulation)
Enrico Badella wrote:
Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP
hardware,software,
manuals,schematics,etc.
Jerome Fine replies:
Does that include PDP-11 software? And if so, is RT-11 software
of interest? I don't suppose that it would be reasonable to ship
and hardware or documentation from Toronto since I assume that
for hobby use, the cost would be too high, but software could be
sent by e-mail.
If you are interested in RT-11, what would you be doing with it?
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
8:11 a.m.
New subject: PERQs for emulation (was: "Real" emulation)
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2:42 p.m.
New subject: PERQs for emulation (was: "Real" emulation)
On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Enrico Badella wrote:
Why are you so cruel!?!? I've been looking for a
PERQ but never found
Cruel? Sorry, didn't mean to be. Speaking if cruel, the person who
sold me one PERQ made me take another as a condition for being able to
buy a PERQ... life's so unfair, isn't it? Just think of the
difficulty I had driving home with two PERQ-T2 chasis, a 19" landscape
monitor and a keyboard in the back of the station wagon - it wasn't
easy to see out of the tailgate window. As to my PERQ-1A systems, the
shipping cost for them was rather cruel, and, alas, neither one is
presently running. Does anyone know where I can obtain one or more
spare SA4008 hard drives to get these PERQs running again?
BTW, if anyone's interested, before the page goes away, grab a copy of
http://www.mfarris.com/know/large/large1.html
before it goes away. It looks like a good minimal, reference for some
larger, older, drives, even though it's lacking some useful details.
BTW, I checked there a while back trying to find one of these drives,
and was told that they don't deal with them any longer.
one at least here in Italy. They seem to be a UL
almost like Lisp
Machines of Xerox D-machines. I would trade my 11/40 and my VAX FT 3000
for one of these!
Thanks for the offer. Alas, I must reject it - no trade... well, of
course, if you toss in a complete PDP-11/45, a Data General Eclipse
system running AOS/VS, a VAX 11/730, a pair of McIntosh MC-2000 tube
(valve) amps, and some body parts that I can't find for my car (just
because it's 29 years old is no reason for the manufacture of the
parts to have been discontinued!), and a house on a couple of dozen
acres of good, partially wooded, farm/pasture land in an area that I
like - with good well water or city water, then we can talk about a
trade for a working PERQ with lots of neat software, copies of the
schematics, hundreds of pages of PERQ-related e-mail, and copies of
other neat PERQ-relted things. See, I'm a very reasonable man who's
always willing to accept a good deal. ;-)
Writing micorcode isn't a job for the faint of
heart. At university we
built an 8080 using 2901 bit slices and it was quite a task but sure
was the fastest CP/M machine I've ever used; F80 was lightning fast
compared to another Z80A CP/M box.
That sounds like a fun toy!
--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd(a)perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD
2:55 p.m.
New subject: PERQs for emulation (was: "Real" emulation)
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8:04 a.m.
New subject: PERQs for emulation (was: "Real" emulation)
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8:16 a.m.
New subject: PERQs for emulation (was: "Real" emulation)
Re:
Surely anyone should be able to realize that the best
machine for an
emulator is a PERQ, which, if certain AMD bit-slice processor chips
were still being produced, we could all build. The system is user
microprogammable, and some code for emulation, e.g., 6502 uP, IIRC,
already exists. More than one type of emulation in microcode can be
run at the same time, so, for example, one could be running the Accent
OS with it's Sapphire window manager, while also running other
I beg to differ :)
The Burroughs B1700 / B1800 / B1900 would be better to use...
they ran "pico-code", which "simultaneously" (via time-slicing)
interpreted multiple microcodes, each of which was running some process
or other. Thus, COBOL code was running on an "ideal" microcode for
COBOL (Burroughs shipped several different COBOL microcodes...the compiler
chose the appropriate one based on your code (e.g., how many variables
you had, vs. other concerns)), and SPL (?) ran on it's own microcode, etc.
The Burroughs B1700 was circa 1974, IIRC.
Stan Sieler sieler(a)allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler
8 Jan
8 Jan
8:08 p.m.
It is called BOCHS PC emulator and I'm sure it will satisfy any failure
rate you require without further modification so long as you run Windos as
the operating system.
In <5.0.0.25.2.20010108103059.0197da08(a)208.226.86.10>10>, on 01/09/01
at 02:08 AM, Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> said:
f such a system could be built (and I'm sure it
could) it would be a
fabulous training device for people. Imagine doing this same sort of
thing on a PC (which fails more than my PDP-11 in my experience!) you
could help thousands of people.
--Chuck
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
9 Jan
9 Jan
6:35 p.m.
New subject: Nuke Redmond!
LET THEM EAT STOCK.
Since Bush is going to be President (I'm fine with that though I voted for
Brown), I thought it important to remind folks that the Redmond
Washington-based company, Microsoft should be destroyed entirely. Those
employees not directly culpable are still guilty because they knew MS was
doing hateful things. Let them apply at SUN and see what they get. That
will be thier purgatory. Gates and his cronies should rot in jail.
Gates built his empire on the suicides of those he destroyed.
Bush is probably going to try to save MS from themselves and I hope he
fails utterly. Brown would have been even easier on MS than Bush, but he
supports most of what I believe in otherwise. Assume Brown won and I'd
write the same message.
I'd like to see Bill Gates sentenced to prison for destroying individuals
who didn't like his products and who said so rather than for the
fabrication MS is being prosecuted for. The attacks were direct and
devastating. A huge multinational company targeted and destroyed many
careers in fear that competent, well-respected opinions might actually be
heard.
The truth is far worse than anything DOJ has conjured up. The truth is
that if MS had not spent it's resources terrorizing individuals and
destroying other companies through deceit, theft, and violence, Microsoft
would not exist today. Aparently, no amount of resources expended by MS
would produce a decent operating system given the failures to date.
Gates one day may catch a bullet from some Finnish guy 'on the dole'
because MS made the company he worked for 'fire' him for not toeing the
line. I don't think it is right, but I wouldn't wail at the funeral
either.
If we don't get justice, I say we should ask the Chinese or the North
Koreans to take care of the problem for us. That way they would be able
to actually BUY thier OS/2 instead of burning thier own cd's. One Long
Dong with a 22kt warhead ought to do.
My point is that Microsoft is not a company. It is a mafia. It should not
be split or otherwise reorganized but should be utterly and totally
destroyed. The ash should be mixed with concrete and used to create a
monument to freedom, democracy, free-trade, and particularly; the persuit
of excellence both technical and spiritual. A monument to remind us all of
how NOT to run a company and how NOT to do business.
Microsoft - "The Jeffrey Dahmer of companies (TM)"
Regards all,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
7:59 p.m.
New subject: Nuke Redmond!
Oh, quite complaining!.
Just because YOU didn't have the smarts or the imagination and certainly
lacked the application and diligence to build a successful business like
Gates and his pals did doesn't mean you can sit, idly regurgitating the same
unconsidered rubbish every time you're short a buck or two. If you con't
like what Gates has done or how he's done it, then do better. Don't whine.
Get out there and do it! Either that or shut up and suffer the much
deserved consequence of your own inaction.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: <THETechnoid(a)home.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 10:35 PM
Subject: Nuke Redmond!
LET THEM EAT STOCK.
Since Bush is going to be President (I'm fine with that though I voted for
Brown), I thought it important to remind folks that the Redmond
Washington-based company, Microsoft should be destroyed entirely. Those
employees not directly culpable are still guilty because they knew MS was
doing hateful things. Let them apply at SUN and see what they get. That
will be thier purgatory. Gates and his cronies should rot in jail.
Gates built his empire on the suicides of those he destroyed.
Bush is probably going to try to save MS from themselves and I hope he
fails utterly. Brown would have been even easier on MS than Bush, but he
supports most of what I believe in otherwise. Assume Brown won and I'd
write the same message.
I'd like to see Bill Gates sentenced to prison for destroying individuals
who didn't like his products and who said so rather than for the
fabrication MS is being prosecuted for. The attacks were direct and
devastating. A huge multinational company targeted and destroyed many
careers in fear that competent, well-respected opinions might actually be
heard.
The truth is far worse than anything DOJ has conjured up. The truth is
that if MS had not spent it's resources terrorizing individuals and
destroying other companies through deceit, theft, and violence, Microsoft
would not exist today. Aparently, no amount of resources expended by MS
would produce a decent operating system given the failures to date.
Gates one day may catch a bullet from some Finnish guy 'on the dole'
because MS made the company he worked for 'fire' him for not toeing the
line. I don't think it is right, but I wouldn't wail at the funeral
either.
If we don't get justice, I say we should ask the Chinese or the North
Koreans to take care of the problem for us. That way they would be able
to actually BUY thier OS/2 instead of burning thier own cd's. One Long
Dong with a 22kt warhead ought to do.
My point is that Microsoft is not a company. It is a mafia. It should not
be split or otherwise reorganized but should be utterly and totally
destroyed. The ash should be mixed with concrete and used to create a
monument to freedom, democracy, free-trade, and particularly; the persuit
of excellence both technical and spiritual. A monument to remind us all of
how NOT to run a company and how NOT to do business.
Microsoft - "The Jeffrey Dahmer of companies (TM)"
Regards all,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
8:02 p.m.
New subject: Laser 128 expansion port
A recent message mentioned that the Laser 128 has an expansion port which
can use Apple II cards. Is this accurate?
If so, I think I'll dig my laser out and dog the hell out of it. I had no
idea.
BTW, anyone got a scsi card for Apple II they don't want or need?
Regards,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
9 Jan
9 Jan
9:32 p.m.
New subject: Nuke Redmond!
Jeff,
Two syllables for you: "Pro" and "zac". Put them together and get
some.
Find a suitable newsgroup for your super strength flame-a-thon.
On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 THETechnoid(a)home.com wrote:
LET THEM EAT STOCK.
Since Bush is going to be President (I'm fine with that though I voted for
Brown), I thought it important to remind folks that the Redmond
Washington-based company, Microsoft should be destroyed entirely. Those
employees not directly culpable are still guilty because they knew MS was
doing hateful things. Let them apply at SUN and see what they get. That
will be thier purgatory. Gates and his cronies should rot in jail.
Gates built his empire on the suicides of those he destroyed.
Bush is probably going to try to save MS from themselves and I hope he
fails utterly. Brown would have been even easier on MS than Bush, but he
supports most of what I believe in otherwise. Assume Brown won and I'd
write the same message.
I'd like to see Bill Gates sentenced to prison for destroying individuals
who didn't like his products and who said so rather than for the
fabrication MS is being prosecuted for. The attacks were direct and
devastating. A huge multinational company targeted and destroyed many
careers in fear that competent, well-respected opinions might actually be
heard.
The truth is far worse than anything DOJ has conjured up. The truth is
that if MS had not spent it's resources terrorizing individuals and
destroying other companies through deceit, theft, and violence, Microsoft
would not exist today. Aparently, no amount of resources expended by MS
would produce a decent operating system given the failures to date.
Gates one day may catch a bullet from some Finnish guy 'on the dole'
because MS made the company he worked for 'fire' him for not toeing the
line. I don't think it is right, but I wouldn't wail at the funeral
either.
If we don't get justice, I say we should ask the Chinese or the North
Koreans to take care of the problem for us. That way they would be able
to actually BUY thier OS/2 instead of burning thier own cd's. One Long
Dong with a 22kt warhead ought to do.
My point is that Microsoft is not a company. It is a mafia. It should not
be split or otherwise reorganized but should be utterly and totally
destroyed. The ash should be mixed with concrete and used to create a
monument to freedom, democracy, free-trade, and particularly; the persuit
of excellence both technical and spiritual. A monument to remind us all of
how NOT to run a company and how NOT to do business.
Microsoft - "The Jeffrey Dahmer of companies (TM)"
Regards all,
Jeff
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid(a)home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10 Jan
10 Jan
4:04 a.m.
New subject: Nuke Redmond!
At 12:32 AM 1/10/01 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Two syllables for you: "Pro" and
"zac". Put them together and get some.
Prozac is for depression, not obsession, mania, paranoia,
or even weak logic.
I'm still eagerly awaiting the release of Microsoft Linux. They could
leverage all the work of the ranting maniacs out there (effectively
tapping the wages paid by other companies, as the Linux market does
now), open source very little if nothing, port the Office suite
and presto, they could give away an OS and continue to sell apps.
With .NET, they'll completely blur the line between OS and app
nonetheless. All hail the subscription model! With $400 MSN
discounts appearing on every PC in the retail chain, and ads
touting $150 (with MSN discount) computers, how far are we from
"free Microsoft computers"?
No doubt Apple is thinking the same thing with OS X: it's portable
between machines and it can begin to leverage all the code-work of
all the "free" programmers.
For the classic connection, I firmly believe there will always
be a way to drop to a DOS prompt.
- John
4:28 a.m.
New subject: Nuke Redmond!
For the classic connection, I firmly believe there
will always
be a way to drop to a DOS prompt.
Of course, we could just all use machines that are CLI by default anyway.
Hence the C64 on my desk. :-)
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- What is THIS man doing here?! -- Maj. Hochstetter, "Hogan's Heroes"
--------
7:07 a.m.
New subject: Nuke Redmond!
Didn't you clog the list up enough with this nonsense between April 5th and
April 17th of last year. Sure no one around here likes M$, but take it
elsewhere.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
8596
days inactive
8599
days old
26 comments
20 participants
participants (20)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
enrico.badella＠softstar.it -
fauradon＠mn.mediaone.net -
foo＠siconic.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jhfine＠idirect.com -
jpl15＠panix.com -
jrasite＠eoni.com -
jtinker＠coin.org -
lgwalker＠look.ca -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
optimus＠canit.se -
rdd＠smart.net -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
ss＠allegro.com -
THETechnoid＠home.com