18 Oct
2011
18 Oct
'11
9:37 p.m.
On 19 October 2011 05:10, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/18/2011 11:16 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
?Let's see. ?I don't use it, nobody I know uses it, nobody I work for now
uses it, nobody I've ever worked for (save for a few suits who raped the
companies) has used it...
?Then I've been involved in it for a bit longer than you have, from the CP/M
days, probably not enough of a difference to be particularly meaningful.
?Ah-HA. ?This may explain the difference in what we see.
?I assume that by "business computing" you mean bunches of suits shuffling
papers around, making faces at each other across conference tables, all
while randomly mentioning products like "Excel" and names like
"Bloomberg"
and "Kiewit" to try to make themselves sound cool.
?Please note well that, while I do firmly believe that you're an asshole of
epic proportions, what I said in the previous paragraph is not intended to
disparage YOU in any way, shape, or form.
?Anyway, I work exclusively in technical computing. ?Always have. ?Now I'm
thinking that this may be a "different worlds" kind of thing.
?So my beef with you, then, wouldn't be a matter of "this prick doesn't
know
what he's talking about", but more a matter of "this prick thinks the
whole
data processing world is exactly like the little corner of it that HE works
in".
?(and I might, maybe, just be guilty of the same thing!)
?My view of that side of "computing" is that it's common to tolerate
crappy
tools. ?I don't understand that mindset, but then, I'm very intolerant of
crappy tools
?I assert that it's unprofessional (but not commonly viewed as such) to NOT
tell people when they're being idiots.
?In this crowd of mostly people who don't work in this industry? ?I couldn't
care less. ?Nobody here is hiring. ?(well, almost nobody, but I'm not moving
again! ;))
I'm not going to bother debating point-by-point with an offensive,
loudmouthed bigot. Who is, incidentally, younger than me and is very
definitely a *lot* less experienced than me in the wider world.
You clearly know very little about the realities of commercial, home
and business computing in C21.
I am happy to accept that your statements are entirely accurate about
technical/scientific computing. I have little contact with this area,
but when I do, I mostly see Linux and Mac OS X, and Windows is rare
except in the administrative areas.
However, the fact remains that technical/scientific computing is a
small niche market. If you have managed to remain within it, good for
you. I am happy for you.
You are making a cardinal error of logic in thinking that the area
that you specialise in is the whole world, though. It's one I've made
myself.
For instance, it would be very easy to deduce, from walking around
homes and offices, that x86 computers utterly dominate today. No
mainstream PC manufacturer makes desktops or laptops that run anything
else, except occasionally as sidelines, e.g. Toshiba's AC-100 ARM
netbook.
But actually, ARM processors outsell all different makes of x86 chips
many times over, perhaps 10? over.
Embedded computers far outnumber PCs, and in the embedded world,
things like MIPS are still strong, as even are 8-bit devices. One of
the world's most widely-deployed OSs is TRON and iTRON and yet few
have ever heard of it.
But in the world of the PC, of general-purpose computers, yes, x86
rules, and in the world of x86, Windows rules.
Apple with Mac OS X has about 5% of the world market. It's gone lower
but since the launch of the Mac in 1984 it's never gone much higher.
In terms of value, Apple sells very well - in some sectors it's
reached a third of the market, but in terms of units, it's way behind.
And Linux is a dramatically smaller sector than Apple. It's around a
single percent.
Yes, I can demonstrate all this conclusively with figures, but I am
not going to go obtaining and giving references for a hostile and
abusive fool who repeatedly calls complete strangers arseholes.
You are demonstrating the exact sort of prima-donna behaviour that is
[a] strongly associated with Asperger's Syndrome, meaning that you
need to learn some people skills, and [b] is exactly what keeps Linux
in a tiny niche and prevents it from expanding in the world of
business.
Because the sort of people who build and run elaborate Unix systems
are big, grumpy, bearded boorish males who are very hard to work with
and expect to be treated like gods when they behave like spoiled
schoolchildren.
Oh, and by the way, just to point out the foolishness of your
mud-slinging, this is typed on my Linux-powered main PC, which like my
laptop, runs Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot". I have never bought an
Microsoft product in my life and never will, and I have bought one
used end-of-life Apple OS and two used Newtons in my entire computing
life, nothing else.
Yes, I have a dozen or so Macs. Most are 15-20+ years old, because
after all this is a classic-computers collectors' list and it's why
I'm here, and *every single one of them* was free.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
Flame away if you like, but bear in mind that it makes you look
stupid and seem immature.
?Maybe even as stupid and immature as calling anyone who disagrees with you
"unprofessional". ?Don't start a fight and not expect to...well, get a
fight.
You've misidentified the causality graph here. ?I don't say
Microsoft sucks because I dislike it, I dislike it because it
sucks. ?When they create a viable product, I will use it, recommend
it, and sell it. ?In the past, when they did, I did. ?I am getting
a little tired of having to explain that to people who snap and
snarl without listening first.
*I* dislike it because it sucks, too. Our opinions have little
bearing on the continents-full of people using it, though. You also
seem to think that I am somehow fantasizing and/or
imagining how things work in this industry, rather than actually
working here and getting paid for my expertise. ?While there are
plenty of people on this list for whom that's true, as this list is
a community of hobbyists, I assure you that's not the case here.
I work in the field every day and have watched the rise of MICROS~1
since my getting into the industry in 1988; before that, I watched
from the sidelines from around the time of the introduction of the
IBM PC, which is, coincidentally, about the time I got interested in
computers and computing. I mean,
shit, you act like you think I've never seen the inside of
an office before, any office, least of all a technical one. ?That's
ironic, because while it's rather far from the truth, it sure is
how YOU come off.
[Shrug] No skin off my nose, but I'm working in the business
computing world still and I know what it's like. You don't seem to. Great way to grow and learn, that. Block out
anyone who corrects
you. Let us know how you get on with that, won't you?
?Likewise. ?I haven't kill-filed you yet, I felt bad after flaming you so
hard. ?I felt even worse after coming to the realization that I started
typing about in the above paragraph. ?I still think you're an asshole, but I
think we may be talking about two very different parts of the world. ?IF
that's the case, then we were both wrong to make the assertions we made.
?Whether you choose to accept it or not, much of the technical world that
*I* work in doesn't use Windows, and never really has. ?The people that did
are dropping it left and right, as tools become available for
non-proprietary OSs. ?I got a new (awesome) job about two weeks ago at a
company that develops automation and embedded systems stuff, and in the
entire company there is precisely ONE computer running Windows...and that
one will likely be ditched before long.
And of
course you know I can't let this part go. ?You assert that
my attitude is "unprofessional" because I don't simply obey the
magazine ads or the nontechnical people making technical decisions,
and instead get paid to make technical recommendations for
technical things based on real technical observations and technical
experience? ?That's just absurd.
No, not at all. I assert that it's unprofessional to go around
calling people arseholes and liars and idiots. Or swearing all the time.
?Oh good heavens.
Or claiming that tools used by more people than
live in your
entire country are useless rubbish.
?Those particular tools ARE. ?And, really? ?350 MILLION people run Windows?
?Did you get that straight from Microsoft?
?One other interesting thing is your assertion that non-Windows people tend
to be "prima donna" types. ?I agree with this, but once again you got the
causality relationship wrong. ?People who are overly anal about quality,
"right tool for the job", etc are often viewed as prima donnas. ?(and
rightfully so!) ?For THAT VERY REASON, they tend not to run Windows.
Or claiming that the former
richest corporation in the world, owned and run by the former richest
man in the world, are incompetents.
?Wait, you've GOT to be an American. ?Are you really claiming that having
money implies technical competence, or otherwise defines the intrinsic value
of a person or company in other than financial terms?
?Seriously?
?So all someone has to do to be competent in your eyes is go out and rob a
bank, no matter how stupid they may be? ?You said yourself that company is a
bunch of crooks. (paraphrased)
In fact,
that's the very ESSENCE of professionalism. ?Anything less
is fanboy ass-kissing. ?I've been a good plumber for as long as
you've been breathing, and you're trying to tell me what kind of
pipes the world uses. ?Ha! ?*plonk*
So tell me, top-quoting boy, how do you feel this enhances your
reputation for professionalism, skill and knowledge? :?) I'm not offended and it doesn't really
matter to me if you read this
or don't, but man, you really need to "take a chill pill" and calm
down and learn to accept what you can't change.
?"What I can't change", riiiight. ?Now you're trolling.
?And as far as chill pills, I seem to recall your being the one who burst
out flaming and screaming today, throwing around insults like a spoiled
little shit.
You change people's minds by showing them
that you understand them
and then gradually leading them in the direction of better tools,
methods and practices, not by shouting at them and calling them
idiots.
?And once again you misunderstand. ?I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.
?Here? ?On THIS list, for free? ?Are you kidding? ?I have bills to pay and
work to do, and I use the very best tools that I've found in my time of
doing this. ?Sometimes, when I'm asked for help, or when I'm paid for it, I
help others use good tools.
?And I'm certainly not trying to convince YOU, because you're obviously the
second biggest Microsoft devotee on this list. ?Your occasional "I hate it
too" crap doesn't fool anyone, because in the very next breath you sing its
praises and proclaim that it's the only thing the world REALLY uses, and
everyone else is deluded or something. ?Come ON, man.
?But please do consider what I typed above, about technical vs. business
computing etc etc. ?All assholeness aside, on both your part and mine, that
may be the reason why we have such different views on the FACTS (not
opinions) of the industry.