25 May
2011
25 May
'11
7:10 a.m.
Since I'm finally home and not busy, I've gotten a chance to review at
the BitSavers documentation for the VT-103. It did support having a
TU58 crammed into the space under the normal VT-100 CRT. It was a Q18
4x4 serpentine backplane with lots of customization/"specialness" to
work in the VT-100 enclosure. Put an 11/23 and an MXV11-BF into row
one and you have three rows of quad slots left in the system. (Which
should provide more then enough space for expansion. As you've got CPU
and 128KB RAM, 2 SLU, clock and ROM all in those two boards.) I'd
probably put an RQDX3 or CMD CQD-22X SCSI controller for mass storage,
and another 128KB RAM board, to bring the system to a full 256KB of
RAM. And that still leaves two rows empty. What else can one stick
into the VT-103? Well, I'm sure you can think of something. (For
absolute hilarity, since RSTS/E 10.1 can run on an 11/23 with 256KB
RAM, add a DELQA, DLVJ-1 and two DZQ-11 modules and have a desktop
timesharing box with network connectivity.)
I would prefer a real VT-100 (or VT-125), however I have the slight issues of:
1. Can't find anything in Hamilton.
2. Don't have money.
3. I can't drive any where to pick anything up (because of visual
impairment - read: blindness in one eye, and crap vision in the other
- I can't drive a car).
So that's why I'm currently limited to using a PC. Well that and a
slight lack of space.
I had a silly idea of what to do with spare QBUS 11 but it would be
more silly then anything. Since I'm a bit into the steampunk
aesthetic; built a QBUS backplane and PSU into an ornate small cabinet
so that it looks like Victorian era furniture, and put a table-top
KSR-33 (caseless) or KSR-35 (either caseless or with case) on top of
the cabinet and have a "Victorian-11". (Since the front panel on most
QBUS 11 systems is so simplistic one could also make the panel look
similarly "old." It would be an interesting conversation piece, but
mildly odd in apperance. Though, to keep the look you'd have to mount
the disk drives behind a small door (otherwise you have Victorian
furniture... with a floppy disk drive in it).
On 24 May 2011 11:35, allison <ajp166 at verizon.net> wrote:
On 05/24/2011 10:30 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
wrote:
Ooh, I like the BA11VA chassis, it's quite "cute" in it's compactness.
Though, I'm more partial to the VT-103 -- which I'm still trying to
get from the person who I know has one -- mostly becuase it's a QBUS
'11 in a VT-100 with real TU58 mounted under the CRT (or at least it
was an option to have the TU58, I think; I'm not sure, I have to go
check the BitSavers documentation again).
That combo is possible IF the PDT110 case was ?hybrided with
the VT103 internal hardware. ?I believe there were some of those
made that way for the printing/typesetting industry.
My BA11VA was my first 11 back in '79. ?The TU58 used with it
is in a similar box so they stack nice and the BA11 provides the
power.
My 11/23 is currently in a PDP-11/03L chassis
(9-slot, quad-width,
Q18/CD backplane). Interms of cards in it the system, I have an 11/23
CPU (with MMU, no FPP, or CIS), 256KB RAM made by a tird-party, DLVJ-1
quad-SLU, RQDX3, M9058 distributor board for the RQDX3 and the
BDV11-YA 18-bit bootstrap/diagnotics/terminator board.
It's currently hooked up to my spare PC, which provides both the
terminal, and TU58 emulation to the system. I currently have the
system booting RT-11FB; I'd rather boot RT-11XM, but I'm having
difficulty modifying the DDX.SYS driver.
I have VT100, Vt125, Vt185 (100+125 using factory board),
several VT320 and a VT330(color). ?They just work better
than PCs.
Right now I'm looking for disks and diskettes
for my system... as well
as generally improving the system. (I'd like to go to Q22 serpentine,
and an 11/73 with enough RAM and disk to run 2.11 BSD; but that might
be slightly difficult given my lack of money, and in-)ability to go
and get anything.)
I have my 11/73 and that a BA11S with a Q22 serpentine. ?Its
populated with 11/73, 4MB ram, RLV21/RL02, RQDX3(3 RD52s 1 RX33),
RX02, TK50, DEQNA in a 50inch corp cab. ?Thats the big system.
Others include two BA11S each with 11/23B, 1mb ram running RQDX2
controllers and a RD51, RX50.
Your luggable 11/23 sounds pretty neat. Do you
have any photos of it?
Sorry no, I haven't thought to. ?The dual width 12 slot case set the
dimensions
as 8" high. ?With that the drivers are oriented vertical with a bezel to
make
up the height (pair of TEAC 55GFR) and the PS is along side the card cage
with fans in between. ?Air flow was the real challange and it's in via one
side
of the back and out via the other side of the back so that it flows across
the
PS through a divider holding the fans (10V from ba23 with thermal speed
control)
across the 12slot cage and out that side through a grill (perforated
aluminum).
The H780 PS with the three switches are front accessable with the floppies
and
a 4 port serial panel on the rear next to the IEC power connector. ?The back
folds
down on a piano hinge for access.
Simple box of minimum size to hold all, no miters edges or the like just a
box.
One of the planned changes is to put a ST225 I have in place of one of the
floppies.
I've since looked at it and have a slot left for a VK170 video card. ?Also
found a
serial ascii keyboard at a flea (boot sale). ?So I'm considering junking
that case and
making it bigger to fit a 7" crt or LCD to take the video from the VK170 and
having a
pocket for the keyboard. ?Then it would be self contained system but easier
to
transport and faster than a PDT. ?The end result would be a PDP11 version of
Darth Vaders lunch box (KAYPRO).
Allison
Cheers to you,
-- Christian
On 22 May 2011 18:19, allison<ajp166 at verizon.net> ?wrote:
>
> On 05/22/2011 04:50 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
>>
>> Is VTSERVER a TU58 emulator? I've never actually personally used it.
>>
>> But yes, an RT-11 build for the TU58 uses the DD.SYS driver. Though,
>> building it for an oversize TU58 image is the same, just with the
>> modified driver replacing the "plain, vanilla" DD.SYS. (You can get
>> the modified driver onto a disk image on your PC via PUTR. You can
>> even skip using an emulator altogether and just build images in PUTR.)
>>
>> I've used PDP-11 sims for a while, mostly because I've only *JUST* got
>> my hands on a real PDP-11 (11/23 w/256KB RAM, DLVJ-1, and RQDX3);
>> though I'm relying on the oversized TU58 images as my disk media as I
>> have no real disks unfortunately. (So the RL02 sized TU58 images,
>> though slightly slow, provide me an actual usable RT-11 environment
>> (I've DECUS C and the RT-11 BASIC on my system "tape" while the
second
>> TU58 is my data "tape").) I'm also negotiating for a VT-103 as
well.
>>
> My collection includes a few real TU58s working. ?My fun 11 that is the
> most
> portable one is:
>
> BA11VA
> 11/23
> 512K ram
> DLV11J
> MRV21 (holds a boot for tu58)
>
> I run RT11XM on it and the first boot cycle load the base image and then
> inits
> VM: and then copies the system to it and boots VM. ?After that the system
> is
> fairly useful as most mundane tasks do not hit the tape. ?It ends up with
> about
> half of the 512K as virtual disk and XM running in the other half. ?I do
> this ?on
> the larger systems running RX02 or RX50 with 2mb ram installed and that
> really
> is nicer.
>
> FYI: for those that have Qbus 11s disks are possible, you need a
> RQDX1/2/3,
> cables
> and the module from the BA123 (or BA23) to break the 50wide cable to MFM
> hard
> disk AND 34pin floppy (RX50, RX33). ?If you can't find a RX50 or RX33
> then
> hunt
> down anything 5.25" 80track that can be jumpered to work like a TEAC
> FD55GFR.
> the preferred distribution board is the one out of the BA123 as it
> supports
> more
> of a given media and different possible media. ?the bridge baord requires
> power
> but if need be it can be hand wired if the backplane lacks room.
>
> Generally RQDX controllers are easy to find but most people bemoan the
> lack
> of
> MFM hard disks. ?But for a floppy only system it can be setup for two
> RX50
> or
> two RX33s or two RX23s. ?RT11 supports MSCP controllers of all versions.
>
> The preferred controller is the later versions of RQDX3 as the late
> firmware
> will also
> run 3.5" 800k (RX23/22) which uses bacially PC compatable 3.5" media and
> it
> also
> supports the RX33 drive at both 400K side and 1.6MB side. ?Even without
> the
> late
> firmware Most dial denity 3.5" drives are supportable at the lower
> density
> of 400K
> single sided (same as RX50). ?For that you that do this will have to use
> a
> PC to
> format media or a mVAX2000 or for those that have it X11 diagnostics.
>
> I've taken a 11/23 (m8186), ?4 M8059 (1MB of ram total), MRV21 rom card,
> DRV11J M8043, RQDX3/distribution into a 12 slot dual wide cage and with
> a DEC BA11 supply (RTC, ?Bevent-L, and reset support via standard 3
> switch
> panel) into a finished plywood box with two RX33s as a lugable and useful
> system. The terminal is laptop with minicom or a real VT320 ?It's light
> and
> runs RTXM nicely.
>
> Before any one gets upset with that apparent abomination it's built with
> excess spares for the other six Qbus 11s from LSI11 through 11/73. ?No
> Qbus 11s were executed to build it. ?Of all my Qbus-11s it's the handiest
> as by PDP11 standards its very portable.
>
>
> Allison
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On 22 May 2011 09:06, allison<ajp166 at verizon.net> ? ?wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/21/2011 06:57 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 03:18PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my
>>>>> forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message).
>>>>
>>>> I just didn't want someone not as familiar with the OS to struggle
>>>> with
>>>> a command that would definitely not work as intended.
>>>>
>>>>> Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to
just
>>>>> do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad
>>>>> blocks on the real media.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as
>>>> RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and
>>>> then transfered to the target system?
>>>>
>>>> Many of the images floating around are RL02, RX33, or other kinds of
>>>> rotating media/disk images and not tape images. ?What is the right
>>>> way to turn them into tape images for such an emulator?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>> Simple with an emulator running said disk images you have the tools
>>> and source files to build a tape image.
>>>
>>> NOTE: Vtserver aka tu58 emulator was simply a block addressable device
>>> on
>>> the end of a serial line that did everything a disk could do.. just
>>> slower.
>>> That is very important as all other tapes are used and handled very
>>> different from TU58.
>>>
>>> So with that a Rt11 build for TU58 is exactly the same as RL02 or RX02
>>> save for the DD driver is used instead.
>>>
>>> I've never spent much time on sims for PDP11s as I have the real thing
>>> and many of them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Allison
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>