28 Jul
2010
28 Jul
'10
11:09 p.m.
Hi Tom,
Nice idea.
Now lets think a moment, that your son fell in love with writing software
during your project.
You teach him pretty old stuff, so he find himself back in the 80's, and his
friend calling him 'grandpa'.....
Maybe it's a better approach to start out with modern equipment, I will give
you a link.
This is modern hardware, like boards built in the smartphones, you can
create pretty little apps and you almost learn something about hardware step
by step.
After that, your son finds himself in 2011 and if he look around for some
job, he will be welcome to companies. I think, he isn't that interesting for
companies, when he notes down 'Skills in Z80 Assembler and CP/M'. Maybe the
people there didn't know what he talking about ....
On the other hand, I grow up with pdp8, Z80 and CP/M, we build the very
first microprocessor based systems here in Austria as a very small company,
which I founded with a friend during my studies at university, so I like
this old stuff and I am a collector too and I also think, thats fine if
there were young people knowing to use this stuff, but as a jump start for a
main carrier, ....??
Look at:
Hardware, especially look for 'development systems'
http://www.antratek.com/EmbeddedMaster.html
http://www.ghielectronics.com/
Software:
http://www.microsoft.com/netmf/default.mspx
With best regards
Gerhard
OE3GKC
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im
Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juli 2010 07:04
An: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 83, Issue 48
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Today's Topics:
1. AT&T Eo (was Re: Before the iPad, there was the Newton)
(Ray Arachelian)
2. M68000 ASM to machine code table (Andrew Burton)
3. RE: M68000 ASM to machine code table (dwight elvey)
4. Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table (Ray Arachelian)
5. Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table (Ray Arachelian)
6. Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table (Dennis Boone)
7. RE: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Rob Jarratt)
8. Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table (Andrew Burton)
9. Re: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out
there?) (Tony Duell)
10. Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Richard)
11. Osborne HD distro floppy? (Chuck Guzis)
12. Re: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent
3.1.0... (Jacob Dahl Pind)
13. Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Dave McGuire)
14. Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Dave McGuire)
15. X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows
Login) (Ethan Dicks)
16. Re: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on
DECwindows Login) (Pete Turnbull)
17. Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Sridhar Ayengar)
18. Re: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on
DECwindows Login) (Dave McGuire)
19. RE: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? (Erik Klein)
20. Re: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? (Evan Koblentz)
21. Re: retr0brite not so right? (Martin Goldberg)
22. N8VEM project with my son? (The Pitlog)
23. Re: RTEM-11 (Johnny Billquist)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:45:20 -0400
From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com>
Subject: AT&T Eo (was Re: Before the iPad, there was the Newton)
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C506CB0.4070300 at arachelian.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 07/28/2010 03:40 AM, Adrian Burgess wrote:
See if you can grab it out of gas or as
sources.
as can be found here: http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/
or this: http://www.easy68k.com/
Generator ( http://squish.net/generator ) has these as well, plus a
disassembler, but the above links are probably easier. Generator code
is part of LisaEm, so grabbing LisaEm source would get you this too.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:58:06 -0400
From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com>
Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C508BCE.5090201 at arachelian.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
actually this is probably exactly what you're after:
http://goldencrystal.free.fr/M68kOpcodes.pdf
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:01:17 -0400
From: Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu>
Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20100728200117.74956DA6001 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Let's also not forget about "ssh -X".
Peace... Sridhar
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:44:18 -0400
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Subject: Re: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on
DECwindows Login)
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C50C0D2.7020007 at neurotica.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 7/28/10 6:00 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> ... heaven help you if you
>> try to run an X client from a few hundred network-milliseconds away. I
>> regularly run X clients in Wisconsin and display them in Florida...
>
while
Yes, but don't mix questions. Keep the thread of each question intact,
and start a new question when you have something else you wonder about,
or use whatever thread already exists that deal with that specific
topic. And I use "thread" very loosely here. This mail have several
different threads dealing with different topics related to RT-11,
RSTS/E, RTEM and various other issues.
So, for the question on how RSTS/E figures out which RTS a program
should run under should not suddenly be the question on how to copy a
file from an RT-11 media into RSTS/E V10.
Yes. You have a working work-around. Which is good.
which
No, but it would be a major problem under RSX and RSTS/E, which is why a
similar solution cannot exist for them, despite what you think you read
in the sources of the SD(X).SYS driver for RT-11.
instruction.
How does the device driver know what symbol table to load? Or is it just
that you can load a symbol table when you are in the debugger, if you
want to? And hopefully you will load the right symbol table at that
point, if you are interested?
Good. So then we can perhaps lay the idea of this SD(X).SYS driver in
any form being available, or even possible, under RSTS/E or RSX to rest. :-)
Johnny
End of cctalk Digest, Vol 83, Issue 48
**************************************
Admission : I have an EO 440... and I've still not
got it working, it
came with batteries (long exhausted, obviously), and I don't have a PSU.
You can easily replace the batteries in that with standard NiCAD C cells
(I think). I suppose in a pinch you could just replace it with regular
alkaline C cells just to get it to power on - but obviously NEVER try to
plug in a charger. The battery pack is just a heat sensor + all of the
C cells wired together in series held together by shrinkwrapped plastic.
Not sure about the power supply (don't have it infront of me, but if I
remember, I can lookup the specs when I get home.)
The Eo 880 has completely different sized NiCAD batteries, I'm not sure
you can easily make replacements. Might be A or B cells.
The 880 has a scsi port and a completely different internal hard drive -
not sure what kind either are, but they don't look like anything standard.
The 440 and 880 aren't that different otherwise, the 880's slightly
faster and might have a larger hard disk, plus the scsi port. I vaguely
remember them having a floppy port, but not sure which machine (or maybe
both) had it. They also might have had parallel ports.
My 880 came with a dead ROM, but I was able to get it to work using the
ROM board from a 440 - I hope there's no extras on the 880 ROM card.
The ROM card looks sort of like a PCMCIA card, but with a different
connector. The dead ROM looked like it had a manufacturing defect, as
if there was extra paint that prevented the soldering from working.
They were awesome machines, and the Penpoint OS was quite nifty. Looked
like a tabbed notebook, with each tab being a different application. I
recall there was a tab UI for Windows 3.1 that resembled it.
Penpoint's HWR sucked when compared to even an original Newton - you had
to write each letter in a specific box, and even that didn't work
right. Of course Newton Intelligence 2.0's HWR killed everything else's
hand writing recognition, too bad the ipad doesn't use that. Rumor has
it it's still (or was?) part of OS X, but I've no idea how to enable it,
or use it.
There was a copy of PenPoint for a specific black and white IBM Thinkpad
(TP730?) which had an intel 386SX chip that ran at a faster clock rate,
but was of course much slower than the Eo's Hobbit CPU. That Thinkpad
could run a Pen version of Windows 95 as well. The magnetic pen from
this machine could work on an Eo, but had a button that acted as the
right click mouse button. I think there was some issue with the
sensitivity of this pen when used with Eo's - if you got too close to
the Eo's screen it would misread the location. Both sets of machines
used a magnetic digitizer, so a regular stylus wouldn't work. If you
don't have that specific pen, or one similar to it, your Eo is going to
be unusable. Maybe some early Wacom (or other) tablets use this, not sure.
The Hobbit CPU is an interesting beast. Not quite CISC, not quite RISC,
they called it a CRISP processor I think. It's actually a stack based
CPU that uses the stack (and of course the cache) instead of registers.
Beautiful assembly on this beast... The only other machine that uses it
AFIK was the original pre-release BeBox. This was originally designed
to be friendly to C and C++, but of course Apple went with ARM instead
for the Newts...
If you had the cellular module you'd know it. It adds quite a lot of
extra plastic to the bottom and has a desk phone handset on top. It's
completely worthless now - at least in the US as analog cell service has
been shut off. see:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/188228/atandt_eo_440_personal_communicator_19
93.html
AT&T even had a data service for it (beyond the fax application) that
was based on the uucp commands. Was probably just email. Not sure.
If you do manage to power it up, see if there's any interesting software
on the hard drive (if it has one). I think there was a spreadsheet and
some other office software for it.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:39:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: M68000 ASM to machine code table
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <760226.31289.qm at web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi,
I am attempting to create an assembler to machine code table, something
along the lines of:
move.l a3,$12345678 -> $23 $CB $12 $34 $56 $78
Has anyone already done this? I don't mind whether the machine code is
referenced in hexadecimal, octal or binary. I just need this to help me out
with something - I have tried some disassemblers, but since they often
(always?) turn data/text into ASM instructions and create false jumps etc. I
am attempting to do it by hand. But before I can do that, I of course need
the machine code references to start with!
Failing that I will just have to create it myself - I have started, but
having realised the number of possibilities for just the move.l instruction
I feel that this could be another long project....
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:49:08 -0700
From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: M68000 ASM to machine code table
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W53B323B806EEA4E6A32A07A3A80 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi
I have code in Forth that will assemble 68K code.
Dwight
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:39:40 +0000
From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: M68000 ASM to machine code table
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Hi,
I am attempting to create an assembler to machine code table, something
along the
lines of:
move.l a3,$12345678 -> $23 $CB $12 $34 $56 $78
Has anyone already done this? I don't mind whether the machine code is
referenced in hexadecimal, octal or binary. I just need this to help me out
with something - I have tried some disassemblers, but since they often
(always?) turn data/text into ASM instructions and create false jumps etc. I
am attempting to do it by hand. But before I can do that, I of course need
the machine code references to start with!
Failing that I will just have to create it myself - I
have started, but
having realised the number of possibilities for just the move.l
instruction
I feel that this could be another long project....
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:55:45 -0400
From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com>
Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C508B41.1070802 at arachelian.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On 07/28/2010 03:39 PM, Andrew Burton wrote:
Hi,
I am attempting to create an assembler to machine code table, something
along the
lines of:
move.l a3,$12345678 -> $23 $CB $12 $34 $56 $78
Has anyone already done this? I don't mind whether the machine code is
referenced in hexadecimal, octal or binary. I just need this to help me out
with something - I have tried some disassemblers, but since they often
(always?) turn data/text into ASM instructions and create false jumps etc. I
am attempting to do it by hand. But before I can do that, I of course need
the machine code references to start with!
Failing that I will just have to create it myself - I
have started, but
having realised the number of possibilities for just the move.l
instruction
I feel that this could be another long project....
I am attempting to create an assembler to machine code
table, something
along the lines of:
move.l a3,$12345678 -> $23 $CB $12 $34 $56 $78
It appears the reason this doesn't exist in the form you describe is
because of a somewhat bit-by-bit encoding. You already stumbled over
this.
But googling (hint) finds:
http://goldencrystal.free.fr/M68kOpcodes.pdf
http://www.ticalc.org/pub/text/68k/68kpm.zip
De
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:24:07 +0100
From: "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
Subject: RE: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <009501cb2e92$d5fad6c0$81f08440$@jarratt at ntlworld.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 28 July 2010 00:06
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login
On 7/27/10 6:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Well I definitely know very little when it comes to X. I don't have xdpyinfo
as far as I know (it seems to be a Unix thing, I am running VMS 5.4). Exceed
offers the following settings for the server visual:
Auto Select
GrayScale
PseudoColor
StaticColor
StaticGray
StaticGray (Depth 1)
TrueColor
I got Exceed to create a trace file, this is what it showed after I started
the login program:
Exceed for Win32 Version 11.0.0.0
Transports DLL For Network And Local Loopback
Copyright C 1991-2005 Hummingbird Ltd. All Rights Reserved.
8:21pm Wed, Jul 28, 2010
Windows XP Version: 6.1 CJK installed
Machine Class: 686 Model 23 Stepping 6
Num. of Processors: 1
Computer Name: WIN7TEST
User Name: RobAdmin
User Path:
C:\Users\RobAdmin\AppData\Roaming\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\
Keyboard File: uk102.kbf
Alternate Keyboard: us.kbf
Imm32.dll status: Loadable
CJK Input: Available.
RENDER: Enabled
Trace Initially On: Yes
PC Address: 192.168.0.11:0 (TCP/IP)
PC Address: fe80::1cba:bfa:3f57:fff4:0 (TCP/IP6)
-1 > Set Font Path: default
Load FDB report:
Screen 0: Physical Monitor 1 (RDPDD Chained DD) - Video Capabilities:
Primary Monitor : TRUE
Depth : 32
Palette Manager : Not present
Server Class : TrueColor
Screen 0 Dimensions: top:0, left:0, width:1024, height:728.
-1 > OpenFont: fixed
-1 < C:\Program
Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\6x13.fon
-1 > OpenFont: cursor
-1 < C:\Program
Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\cursor.wff
3 > OpenFont: -*-menu-medium-r-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1
3 < C:\Program
Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\dec100\menu12.fon
Connection read error at 41988
3:Window (login_db)
Cannot find color 'decwblue'
Clearly that last entry is of some significance! I found a definition of
decwblue and added it to the Exceed rgb.txt file. With that I got a colour
logo. However I still get a horrible fine-grained black and white pattern
for the background, rather than a smooth colour as shown here:
http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif. It is the background you get when
you start the X server and before a client has connected. There don't seem
to be any errors related to that though.
There is also an error in the log above reading a font, is the font supposed
to be on the X server or downloaded from the client?
After I got the colour logo, I then logged in and got some other errors in
the log too:
3 > OpenFont: decw$cursor
3 < C:\Program
Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\deccurs.wff
Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in
Xconfig.
Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in
Xconfig.
Connection read error at 144525
Not sure what ChangeHosts means and what the implications are.
Anyway I have some colour now and it looks more like I would like it.
Thanks
Rob
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:32:14 +0000 (GMT)
From: Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <732996.66171.qm at web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yes, that's exactly what I'm after. Thank you (and everyone else) for the
help.
I did try googling, but my choice of keywords kept sending me to wikipedia
and various sites containing just assembler information.
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
--- On Wed, 28/7/10, Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com> wrote:
From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com>
Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table
To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Wednesday, 28 July, 2010, 20:58
actually this is probably exactly what you're after:
http://goldencrystal.free.fr/M68kOpcodes.pdf
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:55:26 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out
there?)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <m1OeCj0-000J1sC at p850ug1>
Content-Type: text/plain
I would agree that it sounds odd, but the person
telling me knows his
stuff
and this has been his experience.
I'm sorry for how terrible this will sound, but I don't know how else
to say it...Where X is concerned, I know my stuff as well, and it
really
doesn't sound like your friend does. I mean no disrespect either to
you
or to him by that statement. I have an X11 window directly to the
right
of the window I'm typing this message in, it's showing colors, and it's
being displayed here from another system on the network. I run like
this all day, every day. I'm not running Exceed, but a different
(current technology) X server, but the concepts and protocol are the
same.
I suspect the SHM thing could be why it works on
a real workstation,
Nope. SHM (more properly "MIT-SHM") is only used for images.
(XImage
objects in particular, and sometimes pixmaps) Background colors or
drawn objects don't use SHM. It's used where image transfer speed is
important, like video and animations.
or perhaps it is some DEC-specific thing?
Nope. I've run color X terminals (which is essentially what you're
doing with Exceed) from DEC X implementations, and they work fine.
This
is where it call came from, after all: DEC was a member of MIT's
Project
Athena, where X originated. I've never seen anything DEC specific
there
with the exception of DDX (device-dependent) code and their window
manager. The former is almost by definition vendor-specific, and the
latter is too, but perhaps less so depending on your point of view.
Some background: An X client program (which includes your login
window, it's an X client too) initiates a connection to the X server
and
does a few things, including optionally making a call to
XGetVisualInfo() to get the list of "visuals" that the server supports.
A "visual" is basically a target display type that specifies the color
depth of the display, and might be something like "monochrome", "8-bit
greyscale", "8-bit pseudocolor", "true color", etc. Most X
servers
support many different visuals simultaneously. The X client then
selects the visual it wants to use. (a note for the pedantic: yes,
I've
skipped many Xlib calls and details here for brevity)
It's possible that Exceed does not have any color visuals that the
login window X client supports or wants to select.
Note that I typed "OPTIONALLY makes a call to XGetVisualInfo()"
above.
It's possible for an X client to just use the "default" visual, and
that is server-specific, and usually configurable. On most X servers,
the default visual (actually visual "class") is set on the command line
when the server is started. I have no idea of how to set the default
visual for Exceed.
We can drill down a bit further if you'll log into the machine via
Exceed, and run "xdpyinfo" and look at the output. Pay attention to
the
visual names and IDs that it reports as being available. Are there any
color visuals present? Also, look at the default visual ID for the
first "screen" entry. See if that visual ID is that of a color visual.
If it isn't, but if there are in fact color visuals present, it's
possible that the login window X client was written to only use the
default visual, which may not be a color visual under Exceed, but might
be a color visual on the workstation. It's also possible that the
login
window X client is configurable via its app-defaults file. We can
check
on that if you strike out with the visuals described above.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL 
On 7/27/10, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Actually, the original SPCs were 3 boards. A dual-height board containing
the specific device control/interface circuity that went in connectors C
and D of the SPC slot, an M105 address selector module in connector E and a
M782 (or M7820, M7821) interrupt logic module in connector F. That's why
there are connections betweeen the various connectos on the SPC slot.
I hae a DR11-A that's like that, and I think I have a KL11 (current loop
only console port) done that way too. And possibly some others.
Even when everything went on one quad-height SPC card, some devices still
consisted of 3 independant circuits on that card, connected via the
backplane connecotrs only, In other words there would be an address
selector circuit on the quad card conencted to connector E only. It would
output the approrpiate eanble signals on fingers of connector E, they
would then be routed to connector C/D via the backplane and thus to the
device logic. My PC11 is built that way.
I also have some 3rd party dual height cards that combine the functions
of the address sekector and interrupt logic and which go in connectors
E?F, along with a dual-height SPC card in C/D
-tony
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:35:55 -0600
From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com>
Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <E1OeDM3-0001bS-Od at shell.xmission.com>
In article <009501cb2e92$d5fad6c0$81f08440$@jarratt at ntlworld.com>,
"Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> writes:
Goin back ot the very early Unibus devices, there
were 3 cards -- the
device controlelr itself, an M105 address selector (which had jumpers to
set the device address) and an M782/M7820/M7821 Interrupt card which had
the jumpers to set the vector.
Good point. I had forgotten about those - all of my comments apply to
SPCs (Small Peripheral Controllers), not backplane-sized devices
(there were a few SPCs even in the earliest days, like the LP11 I
mentioned).
Well I definitely know very little when it comes to X.
I don't have
xdpyinfo
as far as I know (it seems to be a Unix thing, I am
running VMS 5.4).
Exceed
offers the following settings for the server visual:
xdpyinfo is a standard X11 client. I would be very surprised if it
wasn't on VMS, assuming you have the X11 client programs built for VMS
and installed.
Clearly that last entry is of some significance! I
found a definition of
decwblue and added it to the Exceed rgb.txt file. With that I got a colour
logo. However I still get a horrible fine-grained black and white pattern
for the background, rather than a smooth colour as shown here:
http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif. It is the background you get when
you start the X server and before a client has connected. There don't seem
to be any errors related to that though.
Usually this stuff is configurable with scripts. Last time I ran X11
regularly in the early 90s I had scripts that changed the background
of the login screen. DEC has probably customized their standard login
screen in a similar fashion.
There is also an error in the log above reading a
font, is the font
supposed
to be on the X server or downloaded from the client?
The font database is maintained by the server. In X11, fonts are
never on the client.
After I got the colour logo, I then logged in and got some other errors in
the log too:
3 > OpenFont: decw$cursor
3 < C:\Program
Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\deccurs.wff
Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting
in
Xconfig.
Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting
in
Xconfig.
Connection read error at 144525
Not sure what ChangeHosts means and what the implications are.
It looks like your initialization script is attempting to do xhost to
add hosts to the list of hosts to be trusted by this X server. See
<http://www.netadmintools.com/html/xhost.man.html> This is the "old
school" way of doing security with X11; I think they now have a
public/private key pair based way of doing things.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:40:00 -0700
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Subject: Osborne HD distro floppy?
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4C503330.3210.CF636E at cclist.sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I've been asked by a collector not on this list if anyone has a copy
of the floppy " "Drive C for the Osborne Computer" kicking around.
Let me know and I'll pass it on.
Thanks,
Chuck
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:05:20 +0200
From: Jacob Dahl Pind <rachael at telefisk.org>
Subject: Re: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent
3.1.0...
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4C50A9A0.8030309 at telefisk.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 07/26/2010 08:03 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
The servers out there now typically either use a
bespoke implementation,
since the protocol is so simple to implement (I believe Jacob's is written
in Rexx), or Bucktooth (my Perl implementation) or pygopherd (John
Goerzen's python implementation). I imagine also there are a few forgotten
sites out there still running UMN gopherd. John did some work on updating
the UMN gopher distribution and you can get it from
have actual been using UMN with my own patches here, have changed to
gophernicus yesterday, after I had changed the code a bit to use loging
to a file instead of syslog, and changed the logging format somewhat.
I looked at bucktooth and had actual wanted to use the same format, but
I couldnt find any descript of it.
The one I wrote in arexx was mostly used to handle local transfers
between machines here.
--
Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:237/38.8
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:55:49 -0400
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C50A765.5000307 at neurotica.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 7/28/10 4:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Well I definitely know very little when it comes to X.
I don't have
xdpyinfo
as far as I know (it seems to be a Unix thing, I am
running VMS 5.4).
Ahh, for some reason I assumed you were running Ultrix. The xdpyinfo
program is a fairly standard part of the X distributions, though, and
it's likely there somewhere.
Exceed offers the following settings for the server
visual:
Auto Select
GrayScale
PseudoColor
StaticColor
StaticGray
StaticGray (Depth 1)
TrueColor
Ok, that's a good selection that should support pretty much any client.
I got Exceed to create a trace file, this is what it
showed after I
started
the login program:
...
Cannot find color 'decwblue'
Ah-HA!
Clearly that last entry is of some significance! I
found a definition of
decwblue and added it to the Exceed rgb.txt file. With that I got a colour
logo.
Excellent! Good sleuthing!
However I still get a horrible fine-grained black and
white pattern
for the background, rather than a smooth colour as shown here:
http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif. It is the background you get when
you start the X server and before a client has connected. There don't seem
to be any errors related to that though.
Yes, that's the default X backround pattern. The default background
for xdm should be settable in its resources via its app-defaults file.
But...does DECwindows use something other than ordinary xdm by default?
Do SHOW PROCESS and find out; I don't recall.
There is also an error in the log above reading a
font, is the font
supposed
to be on the X server or downloaded from the client?
Standard X fonts reside on the server. I say "standard X fonts"
because there's a trend in current X development to do font handling on
the client side. That won't be happening here, though.
After I got the colour logo, I then logged in and got
some other errors in
the log too:
3 > OpenFont: decw$cursor
3 < C:\Program
Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\deccurs.wff
Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting
in
Xconfig.
Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting
in
Xconfig.
Connection read error at 144525
Not sure what ChangeHosts means and what the implications are.
I'm not sure what that is either; I've never seen a message like that.
I'm betting it's Exceed-specific.
Anyway I have some colour now and it looks more like I
would like it.
Excellent!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:55:51 -0400
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C50A767.6060201 at neurotica.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 7/28/10 4:35 PM, Richard wrote:
The font database is maintained by the server. In
X11, fonts are
never on the client.
This (unfortunately) isn't the case anymore. There's a big trend
nowadays toward moving font handling into the client. This is a bad
idea for a bunch of reasons, but there's just no convincing the GTK
crowd of anything. The results are gorgeous, but heaven help you if you
try to run an X client from a few hundred network-milliseconds away. I
regularly run X clients in Wisconsin and display them in Florida...thank
heaven that stuff isn't using client-side font handling!
It looks like your initialization script is attempting
to do xhost to
add hosts to the list of hosts to be trusted by this X server. See
<http://www.netadmintools.com/html/xhost.man.html> This is the "old
school" way of doing security with X11; I think they now have a
public/private key pair based way of doing things.
Yes, xauth. Xauth has been around for about twenty years, though;
it's just that it's sometimes not used because it's a pain in the butt.
There's also a standardized method to use Kerberos 5 to authenticate
clients to X servers, believe it or not!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:00:38 -0400
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
Subject: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows
Login)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTikz3RxyEhdwjYFmAW-t6wBLkU2=y5XuEWxn0gYx at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 7/28/10, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
... heaven help you if you
try to run an X client from a few hundred network-milliseconds away. I
regularly run X clients in Wisconsin and display them in Florida...
I used to occasionally run X clients in Wisconsin and display them at
Pole via ~1mbps sat link (1200-1600ms RTT). It was painful but it
would usually (eventually) work.
-ethan
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 23:16:37 +0100
From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
Subject: Re: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on
DECwindows Login)
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C50AC45.1020405 at dunnington.plus.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 28/07/2010 23:00, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I used to occasionally run X clients in Wisconsin and
display them at
Pole via ~1mbps sat link (1200-1600ms RTT). It was painful but it
would usually (eventually) work.
I didn't have quite that time problem, but I sometimes used to test
external connectivity and do offsite troubleshooting from my desk at
work by connecting to my SGI machine at home over dialup, or later over
ISDN (one channel into home, one channel out from there to my ISP).
That's when you realise how much Netscape is doing :-)
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:39:51 -0400
From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C50B1B7.1010604 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dave McGuire wrote:
It looks like
your initialization script is attempting to do xhost to
add hosts to the list of hosts to be trusted by this X server. See
<http://www.netadmintools.com/html/xhost.man.html> This is the "old
school" way of doing security with X11; I think they now have a
public/private key pair based way of doing things.
Yes, xauth. Xauth has been around for about twenty years, though;
it's just that it's sometimes not used because it's a pain in the butt.
There's also a standardized method to use Kerberos 5 to authenticate
clients to X servers, believe it or not! I used to occasionally run X clients in Wisconsin and
display them at
Pole via ~1mbps sat link (1200-1600ms RTT). It was painful but it
would usually (eventually) work.
<keanu>
Whoa.
</keanu>
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:10:00 -0700
From: "Erik Klein" <classiccmp at vintage-computer.com>
Subject: RE: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire?
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <065f01cb2eba$c6aca8b0$5405fa10$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I've displayed vintage computers at 3 of the last 4 West Coast Maker Fairs
and it has gone very, very well. This year a number of CHM docent trainees
"worked" the booth with me and had a blast. We got a fairly large display
space (3 tables in a big booth) and we were packed open to close both days.
I had folks playing with machines during setup and teardown!
You are well within the spirit of the Maker Faire even if you aren't
actually "making" things. You are still keeping them alive and happy and
the attendees love the nostalgia vintage machines offer.
I've gone totally hands-on with each display and made sure to include as
many familiar machines as I can since the audience isn't quite as geeky as
we are. So, for me anyway, lots of Apples, Atari's and Commodores and fewer
Northstars, Eagles and IBM 5100s.
That said, I did have people switching in programs on an Altair 8800 this
year, alongside the Apple ][e, C-64, IBM PCjr and Atari 800.
(Sorry so slow with a reply, but I'm still recovering from my vacation.)
-----
Erik Klein
www.vintage-computer.com
www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums
marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming
Marketplace
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 7:52 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: OT: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire?
Hi all --
My club (MARCH) is scheduled to exhibit at the inaugural Maker Faire
NYC. I'm starting to have second thoughts because we don't "make"
anything, we just make old things work again. Who here has been to a
Maker Faire event, and if so, would a vintage computers exhibit be well
received by the audience?
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:09:45 -0400
From: Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net>
Subject: Re: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire?
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4C50FF09.3070705 at snarc.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I've displayed vintage computers at 3 of the last
4 West Coast Maker Fairs
and it has gone very, very well.
Thanks Erik. Of all the people who replied, you're the only one who
answered the actual question that I asked! :)
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:13:59 -0500
From: Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: retr0brite not so right?
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTimGPnpM3wmG+8AJzQWgFBhjqJFsXtrd-kZJ3Dze at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Well, the process was first introduced in January of '09, so the year
test would have been passed on those done in the first six months.
The only thing that's been reported so far is in some cases is a
reversal of the whitening process, with some of the treatments
starting to yellow again. Merlin (the originator) said:
"Retr0bright reverses the yellowing process, it's not a permanent
cure. If the surface of the plastic is still open to the air, it will
yellow again, as the bromine free radical reaction is reversible.
The permanent fix it is to coat it with clear satin acrylic lacquer to
seal the surface off from the air. No oxygen, no oxidation; simple,
really."
It's available in hobby shops (in spray form) and usually used my
modelers and the like to protect paint, it's not a heavy varnish or
something similar.
As far as blooming, that usually occurs in areas where the spreadable
version of the mixture was left on for to long or allowed to dry. I
have not heard of it happening when submerging in the pure liquid
version.
In other cases, some people have decided not to use the actual mixture
and simply use the peroxide portion as a shortcut which has caused
blooming. The process will also caused blooming on dark colored
plastic, and as such is only for white/tan colored plastics.
I've personally used it on an Apple III, and white Bally Computer case
with stellar results, which you can see here:
http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/138244-how-to-remove-yellowing-from-an-
old-atari-case/page__view__findpost__p__1912172
That entire thread is also full of further discussion, testimony (and
pictures) as well as comments by some who have had blooming as result
of one of the reasons mentioned above.
Marty
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: retr0brite not so right?
>> This appeared on the cbm-hackers list today. Anyone have a thought on
it?
The fact that too much will cause damage does NOT mean that half as much
causes half the damage. ?It is far from linear, and there may be
thresholds.
To quote Paracelsus:
Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes
it either a poison or a remedy.
Admittedly, Paracelsus was expert on neither computers nor plastics.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ? ? cisin at xenosoft.com
Depends on what you are talking about.
If the concentrations are enough to cause visible damage in 2 hours then I
would think that 1 hours use would cause some damage that might take a to show up. You also have to assume that the chemicals
are being used up
as
the process is going meaning the concentration is
slowly dropping while it
is sitting, so damage can be going on the second the plastic is being
dropped in. Plastic soaks up chemicals that stay even when you rinse them
out (I can smell pineapple in a plastic container long after it has been
washed and dried), which is why you never store water in anything that
seen
chemicals. So I can see some reactions still going on
inside the plastic
(depending on its density) even after you have cleaned it off.
If you mean X concentration will cause damage then .5X concentration will
cause half that damage, then no.
Long term damage could be as simple as the plastic decaying from UV ?light
after you leached the UV inhibitor from the surface using retro-bright.
Since everyone mixes up a slightly different batch of
chemicals/concentrations, does different prep work, ?and uses it for
varying
lengths of time in different sunlight and heat
conditions on all kinds of
plastics (which might have UV inhibitors or none at all depending on the
age
and manufacturer) who knows if there will be damage or
not either short
term
or long term.
Personally if the item is rare and would be worth more "whiter" for a
quick
sell, then clean it up. If you are going to keep that
same item as a
permanent part of the collection then you might as well wait a few years
and
see how this all pans out.
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 08:58:01 -0400
From: The Pitlog <tom.manos at gmail.com>
Subject: N8VEM project with my son?
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <10C9B55E-86C1-4081-98DC-4A78F38F5B59 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi,
I'm about to embark on building a single board computer (an N8VEM) as a
project with my 15yo son.
My son is a typical gamer kid who spends most of his waking moments either
in front of a computer playing WOW, or reading SF and fantasy. I'm trying to
find something a bit more positive about technology for him to enjoy. The
operative word is enjoy.
Anyway, he's agreed to give it a shot, and I'm thinking through how to make
this a great experience for him. I've got a fair amount of background (BSEE
and MSCS), and understand the technology, at least theoretically, from bare
silicon to flip flops, to computer block diagrams. I'm reasonably well
versed in Z80 assembly language programming and the CP/M operating system,
which is what the N8VEM runs.
I've got the equipment (electronics soldering station, good DMM, logic
probe, bench power supply, etc) and have access to an OScope if I need one.
And I actually sort of remember how to use them :)
My question for you folks is: At what level, and in what order should I try
to teach some theory to my son? Should I do some background before we start
soldering sockets and ICs to boards and wiring things up, or just jump right
in to building?
I've been thinking jump in and fill in the theory as I can as we go along.
In the end we should have something that looks like an Altair with more
modern HW: solid state drives, and maybe IDE, but still has a front panel
and which runs traditional CP/M 2.2. I have lots of old software to run
there, languages, editors, games, etc.
Have any of you tried something like this with your children? Experiences
and wisdom gratefully accepted!
Cheers,
Tom
------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:06:05 +0200
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>
Subject: Re: RTEM-11
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4C50556D.8060605 at softjar.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
"Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
Johnny Billquist wrote:
I'll try. But please try to read, understand, and apply what I write, or
else we'll not get anywhere.
> >> Agreed! The problem is that I have
been unable to locate any
> >> documentation for which RT-11 EMT requests are handled by
> >> the RTEM-11 RTS along with the differences between RT-11
> >> and the RTEM-11 RTS.
>
> *sigh* Still not an RTS... RTEM-11 is a program, not an RTS. There is
> no RTS concept in RSX.
I agree. I forget to use the correct terminology. If you can indulge me
now that I have turned 72 years old, that would be appreciated. > >>
But for RTEM-11, I don't have any documentation at all.
>
> The obvious answer is that this is documented in the manual that came
> with RTEM-11. Now, you just need to find someone who has it... (not me)
Well, since we both agree that it is extremely unlikely that RTEM-11 will
ever be used, ...
> >> I have access to both V7 and V10.1
or RSTS/E. However, I have not
> >> found the
> >> program in V10.1 which copies files from RT-11 files structures to
> >> RSTS/E file
> >> structures.
>
> And this has just about nothing to do with the question on how RSTS/E
> determines which RTS a program runs under, but anyway...
Obviously, but it is difficult to test a program when I can't even "RUN"
it. > As
I've said before, I know about FIT. If DEC replaced FIT with
> something else in RSTS/E V10, then you just have to search around in
> the system. Look at the help files. That's usually a good place to
> start searching. Read the manuals. I think the V10 manuals are online
> somewhere as well.
The work around that I use is to MOUNT DL0: which already has
the files (Having been copied by FIT from DY0: to DL0:). If anyone else is reading this, can you suggest
anything?
I did suggest how you should go about finding the answer yourself. You
are of course free to keep asking if someone else already have the
answer for you, but noone have responded yet...
> And is
still done to this day in RSTS/E and RSX. And while exactly the
> same, something similar is done in Unix systems, Windows systems, VMS
> systems, and any other system I can think of.
> The reason being that for debugging you don't want a compiler to
> optimize things, and you want to include symbol tables in the compiled
> image for debugging purposes, while you do not want that stuff for the
> finished program, since it takes space and makes the program slower
> (symbol table and non-optimization).
Actually, for VMS systems, if my faulty memory is able to remember
correctly, the
compiler builds symbol tables outside of the code and data in a manner does not impact at all on the program when debugging
is NOT taking place.
Well, not entirely true. You will still take up a lot more space on disk
for the image. And the symbol table is still around in memory even when
not needed. It is true that it does not impact on the speed, nor the
actual physical memory used by the program, since pages are only mapped
in when needed, but there is (as always) more to it than that.
In a way, the same is always true. The symbol table is always outside of
the actual image. Be it in a separate section of the binary, or a
separate file (RSX places the information in a separate file, which is
only created if you ask for it).
But for the optimization, that you cannot avoid. When you want to debug
a program, you do not want the compiler to optimize the code, because
that can, and normally will produce code that is very different from
what you wrote.
From what I remember, the FORTRAN compiler set up the
symbol tables for
debugging so that there was no impact on the code when debugging was not
active.
Your view of "impact" is way to narrow.
> Modern
systems however, usually allows the debugger to be dynamically
> attached to a running program so you don't have to include that bit
> already at the link stage.
Under RT-11, the SD(X).SYS device driver traps the BPT instruction when
it is executed no matter what state the hardware is in. Of course, this
also
STOPS ALL other code from executing as well. This is not considered a
problem under RT-11. Under TSX-Plus, the debugger STOPS only the code for
that job on that
terminal from running. There is also a separate debugger for the TSX-Plus
operating system which does stop everything in the system.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't TSX more or less provide like a
virtual PDP-11 for each user, so that it appears as if they have all of
a machine for them self, so in essence, it would work just as fine as on
a real RT-11 system?
>> >> However, by V05.04 of RT-11, DEC
developed the SD(X).SYS device
>> >> driver which allowed a program to have a BPT instruction without the
>> >> requirement to include ODT as part of the code. If the user LOADed
>> >> SDX.SYS prior to executing the program with the BPT, but without
>> >> ODT included, the code in SDX.SYS initialized the required VECTOR
>> >> to trap the BPT instruction when SDX.SYS was LOADed. The code
>> >> in SDX.SYS then performed all of the functions that ODT supported
>> >> (and a few others as well) without adding any extra code to the
program
> >>
being tested. It is even possible to place a BPT in the monitor code
> >> and test those instructions as well.
>
> Ok. So, no symbol table stuff, and no possibility to add breakpoints,
> watchpoints and other stuff in the program until you hit atleast one
> BPT in the code which cause the code in SDX to be called?
Actually, no! A symbol table is allowed, but I normally never use one
since the listing of the program has always been sufficient. Also, if the
code is already loaded into a known location in memory (e.g. the RT-11
Resident Monitor), it is possible to place a BPT in the desired > RT11 is a
single user system, where the OS do so much less for you
> that this concept is even possible. For more complex systems, you
> cannot do things this way.
AGREED!!