1 Jul
1999
1 Jul
'99
12:45 p.m.
Don't expect sympathy from any evolutionists . . . the inability to continue
in life or in any other pursuit is simply a response to the need for certain
characteristics. In this case, income. If your income fails to keep up
with the cost of your hobby, you have little choice but to get another hobby
. . . or perhaps a job which pays better so you can forestall the same
extinction event a bit.
It's not fair to expect the universe to look out for you personally. It's
not the way of things that YOU or I, for that matter, get to set the price
of commodities on the market, else I'd set the price of gold really low when
I planned on buying and really high when I planned on selling. It won't be
long before you, like others on this list expect not only to get things for
no cost, but you'll soon want to be paid for taking them.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: State of the Hobby
is
But you've
missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby
its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake.
No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy
of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge
of the science.
I would not say that is a rule of thumb. I think there are many people on
this list that pursue the hobby for the sake of the machines - almost as
a sense of responsibility to preserve the past. I can say that nearly
everyone at RCS shares this feeling, at least.
Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the
defensive now. The
'marketplace'
is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter
of the computing hobby.
Well, as the old German man says - "Dat ist de vay de kookie krumbles".
See below for the explanation...
This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to
what is at stake here.
[...]
From my perspective, it's more like lashing
out at land speculators
who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the
parcels by the
lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and
accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. Now there are amongst us speculators who
don't truly believe;
they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they
know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want
a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose.
I think there are far more of these people than we think. How many of us
actually _know_ someone that is doing this? Dealers tend to be rather
open about what they do, simply because they want people to know what
they have for sale. It is basically advertising.
I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The
continued exposure
of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very
soon, many of us will be priced out . . .
None of the computers I have seen for sale, with the exception of a Bendix
G-15, have been horribly outragous in an absolute sense. Look at just
about ANY hobby that involves things collectable - the cream will cost
four figures. Computers, depression glass, model trains, Hummels, books,
clocks, whatever.
Computers are interesting, however, because many of the people that are
buying the things are in the computer industry, and are probably making
good money. If I were a lowly technician* at UUnet, I would still be
making enough to spend four figures _maybe_ once a year on something good
like an Altair. If I were an engineer, something I am sure many of us are,
a four figure Altair purchase would be something to stop and think about
for a minute, but nothing that would drain the kid's college fund. Let's
face it, both the money _and_the_collectors_ are in the computer industry.
SO you're convinced that someone with a pile
of money to throw at
a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh.
It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications
like that.
This is (mostly) America, as they say. Work your butt off and get ahead
of the game. Then buy your Altairs. So far, I know lots of people that
make decent pay because of hard work, but I know no one that gets
decent pay for whining. When I was a poor college student and wanted
something, I would put extra hours in at the warehouse.
IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small
part of the equation.
Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a
little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the
'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach.
Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer
collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have seen it
happen in two related instances.
Back, maybe 15 years ago, I was in high school and was getting interested
in old electronics - specifically collecting electron tubes and military
radios. Back then, the electron tube market was just starting to go, but
the military radio market was dead. I mean dead dead. Maybe Mr. Fandt can
back me up on this, but back in 1985, one could get a Western Electric
205D vacuum tube for about $25, and an Collins R-390A receiver for, well,
free. If you paid more than $25 you were a sucker. Anyway, both markets
started to mature and prices went up. These days a 205D will cost you
about $350, and an R-390A will be about $500. Could anything stop these
price increases? No. Absolutely nothing. People started to see how
collectable these were, and in these two cases, both cream. Economics
took over, with all of that supply and demand goobledygook we all slept
thru in school.
There were (and still are) speculators in these fields, but just not that
many. There were (are) far more dealers, because most people like quick
money, and speculation is not the place to make a quick dollar. The
dealers, for the most part, are quite open about what they do. They demand
good money because they know they can get it. The also demand good money
because there are a great many dead ends that must be looked at before a
big score. How many people like to search a dark, dirty, 110 degree F
warehouse just to find nothing, all because of a good sounding lead?
In the two above mentioned fields, there are "big guns" - those people
that do have money. I know some of them, and have personally seen alot of
collections. Most of these guys are very knowledgable, and treat their
artifacts in a very loving manner. One of the perks of being a "big gun"
and having a super collection is that people expect them to be
authorities, and most end up being so. It works both ways - knowledge
increases with new artifacts, and the quest to get more artifacts gets
more intense as more questions arise from the knowledge. The idea that
the "rich bastards" will just glass-case the items so onlookers can stare
basically completely wrong - with tubes, radios, or
computers. Most like
to "show off" more than just what they purchased.
In any case, the computer collecting field is going thru these changes,
and nothing will stop it. Basically, deal with it in whatever way makes
you happy, but certainly whining will do nothing but alienate.
True believers will always welcome initiates.
But only the truly
committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will
make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price
of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die.
Initiation? Sounds idealist to me. When do we get a temple? And do we get
to spank people with brightly colored paddles with latin mottos?
*no, I was not a technician, I was an engineer, but I knew technicians.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org