18 Oct
2012
18 Oct
'12
10 p.m.
M
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: fine pitch soldering
Message-ID: <508063F0.2080503 at neurotica.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 10/18/2012 12:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
What type of pick-and-place system do you have? I'm looking to move
in that direction.
I got a VERY good deal on a Philips CSM-84. This model can hold up to about
55 8-mm feeders (capacity reduced for larger sizes) and has a vibratory
feeder
option and a large chip alignment station. For small chips and passives
it aligns
with mechanical jaws on the head. it has 3 heads, I have 2 set up with
the jaws
and one with no jaws to use the separate aligner. These machines are also
available with vision, mine does not have that feature. It is a BIG
machine,
5 x 7 feet, and needs compressed air and a fair amount of power. it is
single-phase,
however. It weighs about 1600 Lbs. Note that with all these machines, the
feeders will probably cost more than the used machine.
The CSM-84 is a VERY flexible machine, and easy to program. (The
vision system needs a LOT more programming than the placement section,
but once you have programmed all the parts you use, the vision doesn't
need much attention.) So, I do everything from 0805 up to 30mm FPGAs
with it. It is marginal with .65mm pitch parts, but does great with SO
chips and all passives.
If you look at other machines, check carefully about the range of parts
they handle, and the consumables. Some of these machines eat several
vacuum nozzles at $100 a pop every shift, and guarantee a broken nozzle
on any mis-pick or tumbled part, not to mention actual crashes.
The CSM is VERY robust in comparison, uses steel nozzles and can survive
most crashes without much damage. Having the experience with mine,
I might have been better off to get a machine with vision instead of
the jaw alignment, but it all depends on the kind of stuff you do.
The later machines are generally marked with a /// after the model
to indicate a later computer and brushless servo motors. There is
the CSM-84 VZ which has vision and a Z axis servo, and the
VANE which has vision and the auto nozzle exchanger. Not so sure
about the ANE system, it uses different nozzles, and they look more
fragile. I have made a big nozzle for FPGAs with a lathe and mill
for my machine.
I paid about $3600 for my machine including shipping and about
50 feeders. It cost me more than that to have a double door installed
on my basement to get it inside! Obviously, I had a motivated seller
who needed to get this machine off his floor to make room for new
machines already in transit. Every day I communicated with him,
the deal got sweeter. First, just the machine, then some feeders,
then lots more feeders (all he had) then a box of spare parts.
One thing is to get a machine that is highly regarded by the community
(there are some REAL lemons out there) and be sure to get the manuals
including the service manuals, because something WILL go wrong on
these older machines. They ARE complex, mine has over 50 sensors
and about 25 actuators.
Jon
cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
I have been
doing fine-pitch soldering for a long time. I do stuff as
fine as
0.4mm lead pitch, which is a bit of a pain. The bulk of stuff I now make
with a pick and place machine and a reflow oven (converted toaster oven
with thermocouple ramp-and-soak controller).
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: fine pitch soldering (Chuck Guzis)
2. Re: It lives! (Liam Proven)
3. Re: It lives! (Ethan Dicks)
4. Re: It lives! (David Riley)
5. Re: It lives! (barythrin at gmail.com)
6. Re: It lives! (Shoppa, Tim)
7. Re: It lives! (John Many Jars)
8. Re: PDP1 Music / Record sold (barythrin at gmail.com)
9. Re: It lives! (David Brownlee)
10. RE: Skipware level, late 2012 (John Foust)
11. Re: fine pitch soldering (Dave McGuire)
12. Re: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re:
Skipware level, late 2012 (John Foust)
13. Re: UCSD-P for the WD-900 ? (Eric Smith)
14. Re: fine pitch soldering (Dave McGuire)
15. Re: fine pitch soldering (Ryan Brooks)
16. Re: fine pitch soldering (Chuck Guzis)
17. Re: fine pitch soldering (Dave McGuire)
18. Re: Desoldering Pump (Paul Anderson)
19. Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board (Tony Duell)
20. Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board (Paul Anderson)
21. Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? (Dave McGuire)
22. Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? (Dave McGuire)
23. Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board (Ethan Dicks)
24. Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? (ben)
25. Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? (Ethan Dicks)
26. Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board (mc68010)
27. Re: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re:
Skipware level, late 2012 (Toby Thain)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:26:32 -0700
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: fine pitch soldering
Message-ID: <50803BC8.3080004 at sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 10/18/2012 09:21 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
The MOST important thing is a
stereo zoom microscope with a long working distance. A working
distance of 2-3" is necessary to get your hands and a soldering iron
under it. A ring light can be made from a ring of PC board material
that fits around the snout of the microscope. Carve a ring in the
copper of the PCB so it becomes two concentric rings. Use a 12 V
DC wall-wart power supply and 8 while LEDs, with about 1 K Ohm
series resistors.
Agree on the stereo microscope (dissection microscope). I find that the
CCFL ring lights made for cars and motorcycles are cheap and give much
more intense and even (shadowless) light. Typical diameter is about 100
mm and all seem to come with mounting clips or tabs. You can also get
them in LED, but I find the light from a white CCFL much easier on the
eyes. Cheap inverters are available to run the CCFL lamps. I use the
microscope for initial positioning and completed inspection and prefer
to use a binocular loupe during the actual soldering.
Solder braid can be used to remove excess solder
bridging the
leads, which WILL happen frequently. For big, high-density
chips, this is my procedure: First, put a tiny dab of solder
on 2 corner pads. Align the chip with the pads, and solder
the corners that have the extra solder.
For large TQFPs, I anchor the chip body to the PCB with a dab of clear
nail polish, using the microscope for accurate positioning. Once the
polish has set, I proceed with the corner soldering. I find that I can
get extremely good registration this way. It's not fast, but it's
nearly foolproof.
FWIW,
Chuck
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:34:58 +0100
From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: It lives!
Message-ID:
<CAMTenCHLomP=yvz6sQsA0VAc4FzqKoJHd4+in98H9GKstg=OYQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
On 18 October 2012 15:41, Francois Dion <francois.dion at gmail.com> wrote:
I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but
apparently not. There are now
3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day.
Guess what computer I brought back from the dead?
http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html
I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it.
Just a simple screenshot to start with...
I was going to guess Apple II or that era from the BASIC prompt of ]
but not given the later hints...