25 Oct
2010
25 Oct
'10
5:04 a.m.
Speaking of S/390s I wondered if anyone could help me to donate my to the
NMOC at Bletchley Park. The model number escapes me, but it's an early
air-cooled s/390 from around 1990-1992. NMOC don't currently have this
architecture in the collection, so are receptive to the donation. However
there's the small matter of getting it there from Hampshire. My MG isn't
up to lugging to cabinets worth of disk and IO chassis. The other issue is
that I have almost no cabling. I have the cabling for the system
controller workstation, but all of the bus and tag cabling used for this
model is missing. So for the moment, it sits in both the spare bedroom and
the garage.
Anyone clearing out the under floor of their data centers in southern
England? And anyone with a strong back and and white van?
Thanks,
Colin Eby
|------------ | From: |
|------------ | To: |
|------------ | Date: |
|------------ | Subject: |
|------------
Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
<4CC46A79.3090101 at neurotica.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 10/24/10 12:20 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote:
Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
<4CC46A7D.2060903 at neurotica.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 10/24/10 12:14 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
The z900 was withdrawn from marketing three or four years ago, which
makes them pretty much "last years' model" in the mainframe world.
They're still supported.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:25:29 -0400
From: Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org
Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <201010241425.30204.pat at computer-refuge.org
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8"
On Sunday, October 24, 2010, Daniel Seagraves wrote:
This isn't true at all. The last time I read the license agreement that
popped up booting my S/390's service element, it required you to
transfer the LIC with the machine. It certainly didn't allow you to
keep the LIC if you got rid of the machine, nor did it require you to
destroy the copy of the LIC if you transferred the machine to someone
else.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:22:50 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...]
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <m1PA5Df-000J3xC at p850ug1
Content-Type: text/plain
Ah no, you misnderstood me...
Presumanbly there is a database of the artefacts in the museum, indexed
by the indentification numbers. That database includes more details about
the particular object, things like (I would hope), options, serial
number (s), version, etc. All we've been discussing. I see no reason why
the date of acquisition (full date, not just the year), source (maybe
'anonymous donor' :-)), and the like should not be stored there as well.
It's far better to store too much information than too little.
But what I am wondering is why the year of acquisition should be a field
in the indentifier.
It is a subjective evaluation. One more reason that proper cataloging
requires expertise.
Agreed... I feel you should err on the side of recording too much
information. It's easy to ignroe it later ;-)
Subject: simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode?
To: General at heeltoe.com, "Discussion at heeltoe.com":On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>,
"simh at trailing-edge.com"
<simh at trailing-edge.com Message-ID:
<4CC47C06.5020000 at heeltoe.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I have a low-level pdp-11 question...
I'm confused about writing to the PSW on cpu's which support user &
supervisor mode. My
read of the docs is that in user mode you should not be able to write
the "mode" bits of the PSW.
(or, perhaps more accurately, you should not be able to *clear* any mode
bits from user space)
I have a little diagnostic which doesn't work as I though it should
under simh and I thought I'd
ask what others think...
Basically, simh allows code running in "user mode" to write the PSW even
when (I claim) it
should not. I have not tried this on a real 11/44 or 11/34 yet, but I
can/will.
Should simh allow this? In the test blow the "clr @#PSW" is successful
when run
on simh and I think it should basically be a nop...
(which begs another question - should it be a nop? or a exception?)
A side question might be "the psw is not protected from writes, except
by using
the mmu" - is this true on all models? or just some? The 11/40 manual
implies
that it *is* protected. But 11/73 docs seem to say the opposite and
imply using the mmu.
diagnostic follows:
.TITLE test17
.ASECT
PSW=177776 ;processor status word
.=34
.word 200
.word 0007
.=200
mov #200, r5 ;we should be in kernel mode here
rti
.=500
clr @#PSW ;kernel mode
mov #500,sp ;sp=500 in kernel mode
mov #140000,@#PSW ;user mode
mov #700,sp ;sp=700 in user mode
trap 377 ;should move us to kernel mode
nop
clr @#PSW ;back to kernel mode
nop
halt
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 20:47:49 +0200
From: St?phane Tsacas <stephane.tsacas at gmail.com
Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
<AANLkTinCtUkbC4gfnNad6jJ4g6-++65wXvvXoHQ7PYO3 at mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 15:06, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
<4CC48CE3.7050508 at gmail.com Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
St?phane Tsacas wrote:
Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
<4CC48DC7.9070705 at neurotica.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 10/24/10 3:45 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Right there with you on that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:11:02 -0500
From: Nick Allen <nick.allen at comcast.net
Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC
(Operation Alto Restoration)
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4CC1E1C6.9050709 at comcast.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Sure, I will upload the photos shortly.
Did you have to build a custom cable/adapter from Diablo to the Parallel
port on the PC? Did you use any a custom drive, utility, os on the PC
side? Just looking to validate somehow that my Diablo Drive is fully
functioning, and this direction seems to be the best bet until I get the
Alto working.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:35:54 -0500
From: Nick Allen <nick.allen at comcast.net
Subject: FS: 70's Vintage Computer Magazines (Byte, Kilobaud, Dr
Dobb's) & Sun-2, Sun 100U Docs
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <4CC23BFA.3050409 at comcast.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Byte magazines pretty much the complete 1975-1977 years!
Kilobaud magazines: Year 1977
Dr Dobb's: Years 1977-79
Sun-2 technical overview documentation
Sun 100u Optical Mouse Docs
Mark 8 Minicomputer build plans from Radio Electronics magazine:
Here is the link to my seller profile (will display all current
auctions):
http://shop.ebay.com/sdinet/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Trying to clear room in the condo, and raise funds to repair the
Alto/IMSAIs/Altairs!
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 04:09:42 +0200
From: Torfinn Ingolfsen <tingox at gmail.com
Subject: Re: the new manx is live
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
<AANLkTimoQDE2XM84piiJ1QB9Lyi8LyM=3qCcKC-02NL8 at mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> wrote:
<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%252BWO-gfLNyM
at mail.gmail.com
>
>
Seems there are some network problems somewhere between me and manx. I
can't
rerach bitsavers.org either:
tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ ping bitsavers.org
PING bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17) 56(84) bytes of data.
Subject: Re: IBM
S/390 on ebay
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
<4CC489C8.3020702 at jwsss.com Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
The LIC for the r/390's and the pc/390's was at one time freely
downloadable.
It is the OS Licensed material that is not transferable to another
entity. The firmware is not a problem. Most of the peripherals have
LIC code and you only need to call IBM to get copies if you supply the
model number.
I have two 3174's that have "LIC" and IBM's support number supplied the
code at IBM's cost to fix me up. I have to say that I was impressed
with that. I also ordered 3290 support as well as the latest rev of the
Token Ring support on 2mb floppies.
I also believe that the firmware for the 9370's is not a problem to
transfer, just the OS. Linux is not a problem.
I will ask a friend who has two of these running what if any issues he
has, as he may have transferred a license I don't know about for one of
the smaller 390's he has. Based on his use, I would almost (but for
that detail) say there is no problem as long as you have the hardware.
On 10/24/2010 11:25 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2010, Daniel Seagraves wrote:
> >>>
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP39
>>> 0G1.html
>> Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal
>> for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the
>> LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the
>> original purchaser and only on the specific machine and
>> configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other
>> party is unlicensed and illegal.
> This isn't true at all. The last time I read the license agreement that
> popped up booting my S/390's service element, it required you to
> transfer the LIC with the machine. It certainly didn't allow you to
> keep the LIC if you got rid of the machine, nor did it require you to
> destroy the copy of the LIC if you transferred the machine to someone
> else.
> Pat
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:10:21 -0700
From: "Tom Gardner" <thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Subject: RE: Re: Oldest original proper computer
(stored program etc)
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
<EE3A6EC5DBF7493E9E39C8CFA9759060 at tegp4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote:
> Message-ID: <015601cb7166$e49b58a0$add209e0$(a)ntlworld.com
>
> > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: <http://manx.classiccmp.org
> >
>
> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E70BE at 505fuji
>
> Message-ID: <C254F6585ED7493FB620AF800A7CA4F5 at vl420mt
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Message-ID: <E1P93zG-0005Jz-CS at shell.xmission.com
>
> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com
> Message-ID: <4CC06472.12811.1626E31 at cclist.sydex.com
>
> Message-ID: <SNT129-W286E3F0A65E7EDCFA0F5C3A35E0 at phx.gbl
> Message-ID: <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67 at cclist.sydex.com
>
> Message-ID: <20101022051336.GA15674 at Update.UU.SE
>
> Message-ID: <20101022051637.GB15674 at Update.UU.SE
> > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: <http://manx.classiccmp.org
> >
>
> Message-ID: <4CC10479.2020902 at tx.rr.com
> >
>
>
> Message-ID: <D428CDED-9195-48F5-B183-3CE5930788D1 at typewritten.org
> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1010221057001.21272 at linuxserv.home
> > From: "Rod Smallwood" <rodsmallwood at btconnect.com
>
>
>
> Message-ID: <SNT129-W644821C0BBBE562CFC5863A35E0 at phx.gbl
>
>
>
>
> Message-ID: <4CC19C0E.3060509 at neurotica.com
Subject: Re: Apple IIa
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
<AANLkTi=XtN6XYQQN-euZX8VmWrQUEA-6OULyovcjqYRX at mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|cctalk-request at classiccmp.org
|
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|------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|cctalk at classiccmp.org
|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|24/10/2010 23:56
|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 52
|
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Send cctalk mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire)
2. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire)
3. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Patrick Finnegan)
4. Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...]
(Tony Duell)
5. simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode? (Brad Parker)
6. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (St?phane Tsacas)
7. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Sridhar Ayengar)
8. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire)
9. Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC
(Operation Alto Restoration) (Nick Allen)
10. FS: 70's Vintage Computer Magazines (Byte, Kilobaud, Dr
Dobb's) & Sun-2, Sun 100U Docs (Nick Allen)
11. Re: the new manx is live (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
12. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (jim s)
13. RE: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc)
(Tom Gardner)
14. Re: Apple IIa (Martin Goldberg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:18:49 -0400
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com It will be interesting to see if it sells ...
They always do. Have you guys really not seen recent IBM mainframes
sell on eBay before? They come up (and sell) maybe half a dozen times
per year. I personally have two sitting here, and I'm not even a
hardcore mainframer.
It may have just become collectible and be tracked as
the first of its
kind outside IBM's control to be sold as
running hardware on eBay. One never knows what will
make an
IBMcollectable :)
Certainly not the first, no.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:18:53 -0400
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com Presumably they haven't "gone after
people" for running Linux on
Hercules, so it seems unlikely that they would go after someone for
running Linux on a z900. We can't presume to know what an eBay buyer
would run on it.
You still need the LIC to run Linux, and the LIC is what's tightly
controlled. One can get operating systems pretty easily, but not LIC
images.
they will
definitely go after someone with real hardware. Especially a
current machine. This is not some ancient retiree we are discussing,
this is a z900 that you can still buy brand new.
I'll admit that I'm not very expert on such things, so I could be
mistaken, but this looks to be an 8 year old model to me, not one that
"you can still buy new". On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas
<stephane.tsacas at gmail.com> wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP39
0G1.html
Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal
for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the
LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the
original purchaser and only on the specific machine and
configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other
party is unlicensed and illegal.
On Sat, 23 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote:
> Sure, but that's then 4 levels. I ahve no problem extending the
> heirarchical system to as many levels as are necessary, my query is why
> it's noramlly limitied to 3. Why not just have as many levels as are
needed.
A properly designed system should be extensible to as many levels as are
needed.
That's _exactly_ my point. Having atbitrary limits may cause problems
later on.
> And why recorsd the year of acquisition? What importance is that? Why
not
just a number
for each artefact starting at 1?
It is unlikely that you nor I would care much about the year of
acquisition. But the bean-counters care. Not "exclusive", but a different attitude
about what is/isn't important.
If you end up with a common/stock item that was once owned by a
celebrity,
you could sell it on eBay to one of those provenance
collectors, and buy
several that were not celebrity owned.
As an aside, maybe in principle, but not always in practice...
Suppose I did have an HP9820 (say) that had been used for some famous bit
of work. Yes, I could sell it for more than the normal 'going rate' for
such a machine. But could I be sure ot be able to buy another one?
There's not an infinite supply of old computers, and some people may well
not sell _at any price_. You could offer me a million pounds/dollars for
a machine in my collection and I would turn you down. And I'll bet there
are others like me.
> > The depth of cataloging would depend on the subjective issue of just
how
interesting/important that item is.
How can you
possibly know how interesting/importantsomethign will later
turn out to be?
I'm not sure that I would want to live in a world where DELLs became the
most interesting/important computers for collecting.
Nor would I, and for the record I don't consider DELLs or other PC
clones to be the machines I want to collect. That doesn't mean I think
that nobody should collect them. Or that the PC clone has not had a very
significant impact on computing (not necessarily for the better :-)).
-tony
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:33:42 -0400
From: Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com On 10/24/10 8:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote:
See also
http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/3304…
;-)
--
Stephane
http://updatedoften.blogspot.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:45:39 -0400
From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658
That's a (badly abused) z900, a 64-bit z/Series machine, nowhere near
classiccmp material, but...I'm drooling all over my lap here.
See also
http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/3304…
;-)
*boioioioioioioing!!*
Peace... Sridhar
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:49:27 -0400
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com St?phane Tsacas wrote:
> See also
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/3304…
;-)
*boioioioioioioing!!* On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard <legalize
at xmission.com> wrote:
> In article
<AANLkTikFFFKKo=6Ba=6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp
+WO-gfLNyM at
mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com
> >,
> Torfinn Ingolfsen
<tingox at gmail.com> writes:
> > Is it working ok for
everyone else?
> > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted
on the same group of
> machines that serves
this mailing list and several other classic
> computing sites graciously hosted by Jay.
From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=50
Packet filtered
From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=53 Packet filtered
From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=54 Packet filtered
From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=55 Packet filtered
From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=56 Packet filtered
^C
--- bitsavers.org ping statistics ---
91 packets transmitted, 0 received, +5 errors, 100% packet loss, time
90127ms
tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ traceroute bitsavers.org
traceroute to bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
1 * * *
2 * * *
3 * * *
4 * * *
5 * * *
6 * * *
7 * * *
8 * * *
9 * * *
10 * * *
11 * * *
12 * * *
13 * * *
14 * * *
15 * * *
16 * * *
17 * * *
18 * * *
19 * * *
20 * * *
21 * * *
22 * * *
23 * * *
24 * * *
25 * * *
26 * * *
27 * * *
28 * * *
29 * * *
30 * * *
tingo at kg-u35jc:~$
from my gateway / firewall:
tingo at kg-omni1$
traceroute bitsavers.org
traceroute to bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 46.484 ms 98.823 ms 99.785 ms
2 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 14.068 ms 14.298 ms 13.788
ms
3 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 14.536 ms 15.015 ms
14.369 ms
4 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 14.258 ms 18.107 ms
14.183 ms
5 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 14.555 ms 14.674 ms 14.876 ms
6 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 27.834 ms 28.522 ms 27.609 ms
7 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 33.525 ms 33.542 ms 33.596 ms
8 213.248.65.121 (213.248.65.121) 43.259 ms 43.400 ms
ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.117) 42.396 ms
9 ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.121) 40.698 ms
ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.105) 43.963 ms
ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.121) 40.340 ms
10 cogent-ic-140549-ffm-b12.c.telia.net (213.248.92.142) 43.399 ms
43.176
ms 42.901 ms
11 te0-1-0-7.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.49.162) 39.443 ms
te0-2-0-6.ccr21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.237) 134.206 ms
te0-1-0-7.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.49.162) 40.854 ms
12 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 133.907 ms
te0-1-0-4.ccr21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.190) 146.549 ms
146.957 ms
13 te0-0-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.154) 144.096 ms
146.334 ms 145.755 ms
14 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 148.954 ms
149.120
ms 149.191 ms
15 vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) 159.651
ms 159.613 ms 157.883 ms
16 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 151.954 ms 153.009 ms 177.673 ms
17 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 152.974 ms 153.659 ms 153.212 ms
18 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 152.006 ms 151.510 ms
150.509
ms
19 * * *
20 * * *
21 * * *
22 * * *
23 * * *
24 * * *
25 * * *
26 * * *
27 * * *
28 * * *
29 * * *
30 * * *
31 * * *
32 * * *
33 * * *
34 * * *
35 * * *
36 * * *
37 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 667.077 ms !X *
38 * * *
39 * * *
40 * * *
41 * * *
42 * * *
43 * * *
44 * * *
45 * * *
46 * * *
47 * * *
48 * * *
49 * * *
50 * * *
51 * * *
52 * * *
53 * * *
54 * * *
55 * * *
56 * * *
57 * * *
58 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 152.356 ms !X *
59 * * *
60 * * *
61 * * *
62 * * *
63 * * *
64 * * *
tingo at kg-omni1$
--
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:32:24 -0700
From: jim s <jws at jwsss.com On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas
> <stephane.tsacas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658
>>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access.
A random access storage is defined by the fact that
addressing
any arbitrary cell needs the same time.
.
That may be today's definition but if you check the literature of the 50's
and 60's I am sure u will find drums (along with Williams Tubes, etc)
categorized as random access devices. Even the first disk drive was the
IBM
RAMAC 350 - as in Random Access Memory! I think IBM invented the term
Direct Access Storage in the 1960s to distinguish devices whose assess time
was short but variable; that is, in between core (random) and tape
(sequential).
So the historical definition may have been . needs essentially the same
time.
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
]
On Behalf Of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:14 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46
Send cctalk mailing list submissions to
cctalk at classiccmp.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
visit
or, via email, send a message with subject or body
'help' to
cctalk-request at classiccmp.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
more specific
than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers (William
Donzelli)
2. RE: the new manx is live (Rob Jarratt)
3. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
(Ian King)
4. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (MikeS)
5. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Dan
Williams)
6. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Al Kossow)
7. Re: the new manx is live (Dan Roganti)
8. Re: the new manx is live (Richard)
9. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Chuck
Guzis)
10. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
(Rich Alderson)
11. Re: HTL (Charles Dickman)
12. Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
(Al Kossow)
13. Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey)
14. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Chuck Guzis)
15. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Pontus
Pihlgren)
16. Re: the new manx is live (Pontus Pihlgren)
17. Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC
(Operation
Alto Restoration) (Nick Allen)
18. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
(Charlie Carothers)
19. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (r.stricklin)
20. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
(Jochen Kunz)
21. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
(Christian Corti)
22. RE: Oldest original working proper computer
(stored program
etc) (Roger Holmes)
23. Re: lilith computer by wikipedia (Simon Fryer)
24. Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on
a PC
(Operation Alto Restoration) (Al Kossow)
25. RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey)
26. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Dave McGuire)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:25:52 -0400
> From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com Subject: Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinUBCts0XvV0RaGH7RcJQab-Vqm5YjBrks8aQP3 at mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Will, you've got a 1604; do you know anything
about this?
Not me.
I probably have enough of the modules that I could
build one, however.
--
Will
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:28:17 +0100
> From: "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Subject: RE: the new manx is live
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>,
"'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Only'"
> <cctech at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
-----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn
Ingolfsen
> Sent: 21 October 2010 08:10
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
> Subject: Re: the new manx is live
> > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard
<legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
> > > Manx is an online catalog of computer
documentation.
> > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site.
> Details:
> root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org
traceroute to
> (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
> 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms
0.158 ms
> 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms
86.825 ms
> 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1)
15.481 ms 14.011 ms
14.051
ms
> 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30)
17.763 ms * 59.706 ms
> 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70)
18.365 ms 14.260 ms
> 14.759 ms
> 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088
ms 14.948 ms 14.765
ms
> 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331
ms 27.930 ms 28.293
ms
> 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114)
78.106 ms 34.255 ms
34.479
ms
> 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142)
67.265 ms
> ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123)
44.158 ms
> ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142)
50.006 ms
> 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490
ms
> ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347
ms
> ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628
ms
> 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net
(213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms
42.313 ms
> 40.571 ms
> 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms
> te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.31.245) 132.058
ms
> te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.26.101) 147.305
ms
> 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.42.113) 140.836
ms
> te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.226) 152.265
ms
> te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.31.241) 135.140
ms
> 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.206) 143.202
ms
> te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.210) 157.894
ms
> 147.097 ms
> 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms
150.014
> ms 150.329 ms
> 16
vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170)
167.084
> ms 156.374 ms
>
vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166)
158.136
ms
> 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms
155.902 ms 152.225 ms
> 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893
ms 179.548 ms 167.528
ms
> 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22)
157.149 ms 151.804 ms
151.915
> ms
> 20 * * *
> 21 * * *
> 22 * * *
> 23 * * *
> 24 * * *
> 25 * * *
> 26 * * *
> 27 * * *
> 28 * * *
> 29 * * *
> 30 * * *
> 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517
ms !X *
> 32 * * *
> 33 * * *
> 34 * * *
> 35 * * *
> 36 * * *
> 37 * * *
> 38 * * *
> 39 * * *
> 40 * * *
> 41 * * *
> 42 * * *
> 43 * * *
> 44 * * *
> 45 * * *
> 46 * * *
> 47 * * *
> 48 * * *
> 49 * * *
> 50 * * *
> 51 * * *
> 52 * * *
> 53 * * *
> 54 * * *
> 55 * * *
> 56 * * *
> 57 * * *
> 58 * * *
> 59 * * *
> 60 * * *
> 61 * * *
> 62 * * *
> 63 * * *
> 64 * * *
> root at kg-quiet#
> > Is it working ok for everyone else?
> --
> Regards,
> Torfinn Ingolfsen
> Oslo, Norway
Works OK for me, here is my tracert:
1 8 ms 3 ms <1 ms JUPITER
[192.168.0.1]
2 42 ms 22 ms 26 ms 10.236.80.1
3 29 ms 66 ms 9 ms
oldh-cam-1a-v100.network.virginmedia.net
[80.5.1
65.13]
4 11 ms 24 ms 12 ms
manc-core-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net
[195.
182.180.37]
5 25 ms 23 ms 18 ms
manc-bb-1a-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net
[213.10
5.175.1]
6 22 ms 31 ms 49 ms
manc-bb-1b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net
[62.253
.187.178]
7 34 ms 45 ms 35 ms
nrth-bb-1a-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net
[213.10
5.64.21]
8 30 ms 29 ms 15 ms
nrth-tmr-1-ae1-0.network.virginmedia.net
[213.10
5.159.30]
9 64 ms 54 ms 43 ms
fran-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net
[62.253.
185.81]
10 76 ms 51 ms 54 ms
te0-7-0-7.mpd22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com
[130.11
7.14.133]
11 144 ms 138 ms 120 ms
te0-2-0-6.mpd22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
[130.11
7.51.230]
12 138 ms 186 ms 155 ms
te0-0-0-4.mpd22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
[154.54
.40.234]
13 137 ms 145 ms 155 ms
te0-1-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
[154.54
.6.178]
14 184 ms 142 ms 141 ms
te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com
[154.54.27.
30]
15 173 ms 146 ms 158 ms
38.20.47.170]
16 165 ms 165 ms 180 ms 38.104.146.10
17 163 ms 151 ms 146 ms host42.datotel.com
[208.82.151.42]
18 147 ms 151 ms 161 ms
stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com [208.82.151.22]
19 151 ms 140 ms 155 ms host50.datotel.com
[208.75.82.50]
20 146 ms 163 ms 158 ms
209-145-130-66.accessus.net
[209.145.130.66]
21 147 ms 160 ms 163 ms louie.classiccmp.org
[209.145.140.17]
Regards
Rob
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:30:07 -0700
> From: Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts'"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
-----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony
Duell
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was
Re: nonsense...]
> > > > I'd like to hear more about what
constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a
> > > n00b in this respect.
> > > > Just what it sounds like. :-)
> > > > When an item comes into the collection, it
is assigned an accession
> > number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where
nnn represents order in
> > which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm
is the individual number
> > of each piece that makes up the item. If a
piece is made up of
> > parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter
can be suffixed to the
> > piece number for each part to make it
possible to keep them
> associated
> > even if physically apart. Leading zeroes
should be used in the item
> > and piece numbers.
> > What do you mean by
'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an
> item being made of several pieces, but why do you
need a third level
> here?
> > In the case of a classic computer, what would you
label? The casing?
> The
> individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the
case of taking 2
> effectively identical machines acquired at
differnet times and using
> parts from bvth to make one working example, or
would a museum never do
> that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy
to be broken!).
> Yes. :-)
Seriously: we do encounter this situation. When a
machine comes in, it
is
catalogued as an entity. If we find it necessary to
remove a component
from machine A to install in machine B, the component
is separately
catalogued with a note in the record stating that it
was originally part
of machine A.
I did this recently with a machine that came as a
system containing an
RK05 drive identified as non-functional. We used the
RK8-E from that
machine with another PDP-8/e that also had RK05 drives
but no RK8-E.
That would not be appropriate for a machine that is
historically
significant in its particular configuration (for
example, our PDP-12),
but
that's a hard argument to make for the vast
majority of PDP-8/e's. And
given the records we keep, we could restore the
accession to its original
configuration if needed.
It's always a judgement call when one must balance
preservation and
restoration. -- Ian
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:52:03 -0400
> From: "MikeS" <dm561 at torfree.net Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45
> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed;
charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700
> From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600)
> That would be fun to find. There was a version
that I used in the late
> 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to
it. I think I still have
> all of the software for it.
----
And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the
GIC8000 and GIMINI and
the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is
the computer ;-)
mike
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:53:10 +0100
> From: Dan Williams <williams.dan at gmail.com Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinSeMiB8LqMnhemRO9Gkq56Ov5wGO6oZfeYtG0P at mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 21 October 2010 20:12, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus
at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 07:12:03PM +0100, Dan
Williams wrote:
>> I'm sure these will be popular: ?I have
8x big heavy drive DSSI drive
>> units. They have not been powered up for a
few years. They have
>> scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They
currently have 1GB and 2GB
>> full height drive units in them. But they can
take up to 9GB.
>> I also have cabling which I have to sort out
mainly for SUN and DEC. I
>> have all the cabling for the dssi drives and
a lot of monitor and
>> other cables for Vaxstation 3100's.
> > I'm curious about that SCSI->DSSI
converter. Is it used to run dssi
> disks on a scsi controller or scsi disks on a
dssi controller ?
> > The latter would be interesting.
> > Regards,
> Pontus.
> It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a
front panel and you
can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk.
It is a
liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone
is interested.
Dan
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:08:48 -0700
> From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Message-ID: <4CC0B9F0.5000705 at bitsavers.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/21/10 2:52 PM, MikeS wrote:
> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700
> > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
> On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600)
> >> That would be fun to find. There was a
version that I used in the late
>> 70's that had a DSD floppy disk
interfaced to it. I think I still have
>> all of the software for it.
> ----
> And I've got some brochures and datasheets
for the GIC8000 and GIMINI
and the various cards and chips in them, so all we
need is the
computer ;-
)
> I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments
on bitsavers a
couple of weeks ago.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:26 -0400
> From: Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com Subject: Re: the new manx is live
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinTe5iYUGDnrsygRs+4XuFwxrGweoN+rEDL6fMg at mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard <legalize
at xmission.com> wrote:
> In article
<AANLkTikFFFKKo=6Ba=6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp+WO-
> gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com > >,
> Torfinn Ingolfsen <tingox at gmail.com>
writes:
> > Is it working ok for everyone else?
> > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted
on the same group of
> machines that serves this mailing list and
several other classic
> computing sites graciously hosted by Jay.
> very nice !
Can we always request to add addt'l companies ?
SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours.
=Dan
--http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:51:54 -0600
> From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com Subject: Re: the new manx is live
> To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org In article <AANLkTinTe5iYUGDnrsygRs+4XuFwxrGweoN
+rEDL6fMg at mail.gmail.com>,
Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> writes:
Can we always request to add addt'l companies ?
> SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours.
This first round was just to reproduce the existing
manx.
Next up is to add users and roles to provide for
community additions.
Contributions of code are welcome. The whole code
base has been
developed test-driven and is covered by unit tests.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX
9 draft available for
download
> <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/ ------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:02 -0700
> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 21 Oct 2010 at 15:08, Al Kossow wrote:
I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments
on bitsavers a
> couple of weeks ago.
Well, I've got the CP1600 CPU sitting unused in my
hellbox and the
blue manual that gives the schematics for the system.
But no
firmware listing for the monitor...
BTW, did anyone notice that there's a fellow on
eBay offering the
INS8900 (PACE in NMOS) NOS CPUs for about $16 the
each?
--Chuck
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:06 -0700
> From: Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts'"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCB91 at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: Tony Duell
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM
>> When an item comes into the collection, it is
assigned an accession
>> number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where
nnn represents order in
>> which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm
is the individual number
>> of each piece that makes up the item. If a
piece is made up of
>> parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter
can be suffixed to the
>> piece number for each part to make it
possible to keep them associated
>> even if physically apart. Leading zeroes
should be used in the item
>> and piece numbers.
> What do you mean by
'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an
> item being made of several pieces, but why do you
need a third level
here?
I was trying not to re-use the same word for different
levels.
You donate items to a museum, let's say for
simplicity's sake a horse
shoe
and a tea service with 4 individually decorated cups
and matching
saucers,
pot, sugar and creamer.
You do this in 2010. That's the first field of
the accession numbers.
The two items are the 75th and 76th donated to the
museum this year.
These numbers will be the second fields of the
respective accession
numbers.
The horse shoe will receive accession number
2010.075.001, and be marked
as 2010.75.1
The tea pot will be 2010.076.001; the sugar,
2010.076.002; the creamer,
2010.076.003; the first cup-and-saucer pair,
2010.076.004A and
2010.076.004B;
and so on. The reason for pairing the cup and saucer
will be the
matching
decoration on each pair.
You could also simply number each piece individually,
but then you lose
information.
> In the case of a classic computer, what would you
label? The casing?
The
> individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the
case of taking 2
> effectively identical machines acquired at
differnet times and using
> parts from bvth to make one working example, or
would a museum never do
> that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy
to be broken!).
I'll start with the last comment. The policy will
depend on the purpose
of the museum; no two museums have identical missions,
though they may be
very close. A computer museum with a mission of
making systems run will
have a very different answer to your question than a
museum dealing with
the history of engineering laboratories, where the
identical computers
may have been used for very different purposes and be
important to the
understanding of how each lab achieved its goals.
(Not every museum
tries
to please everyone in the know about a topic--there
are art museums which
I find deadly dull, and art museums I love to visit
over and over, for
example.) Neither policy is "broken", they
simply differ.
Computers are more difficult to catalog than tea
services. My personal
preference would be to replicate the
manufacturer's bill of materials,
assigning accession numbers at each level down to the
circuit boards (or
equivalent, in the case of large valve-based modules,
but those don't
crop up in the time frame in which we have
specialized). Since the
catalog here was set up by someone else several years
before I joined
the team, I have to accommodate myself to what is in
place--we're not in
a position to re-catalog several thousand pieces my
way.
We catalog the top-level items (CPU, disk drives, tape
drives, printers,
etc.) when they come in. The low-level items (disk
packs and cartridges,
tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier: Loose items, like
spare boards, are
catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in
larger items only
get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or
replacement.
It takes discipline to catalog pieces when you would
really rather be
restoring a system to working condition, but without a
catalog, you will
very quickly lose all semblance of provenance, and
your reason for being
a museum.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:09:31 -0400
> From: Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com Subject: Re: HTL
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
> <AANLkTimgJ80NcGDTXXwhRHZFDfbzy_reGtCe65juy5Ax at mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:27 PM, William Donzelli
<wdonzelli at gmail.com>wrote:
> Maybe a retarded question, but how static
sensitive are HTL chips?
> > Why do you ask?
I have quite a few HTL chips that I have no use for.
-chuck
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:23:11 -0700
> From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re:
nonsense...]
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Message-ID: <4CC0E77F.3000005 at bitsavers.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/21/10 4:04 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges,
> tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier
But necessary.
We're discovering that systems were accepted in
Boston with no boards in
them,
for example, and there is nothing in the accession
record that mentions
that
fact.
It's absolutely necessary to know if anything that
should be in an
accessioned
artifact is missing, and the condition.
It is a huge amount of work to catalog a collection.
One of the requirements for museum accreditation is
having a significant
portion of your collection cataloged.
CHM has come a LONG way since I've been here. We
have just under 75,000
items
visible in the on-line data base
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:37:58 -0700
> From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi
I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it
is working as expected.
When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down
but the tape drive motor doesn't move.
Is this normal?
Dwight
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700
> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote:
I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it
> is working as expected.
> When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down
> but the tape drive motor doesn't move.
> Is this normal?
My recollection of this drive is that the tape should
be
automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e.,
the drive
should spin the tape a bit).
--Chuck
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:13:36 +0200
> From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:53:10PM +0100, Dan Williams
wrote:
> It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a
front panel and you
> can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk.
It is a
> liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone
is interested.
It would be a lovely thing to have. I live in sweden
and unless you find
someone local and wouldn't mind shipping I
wouldn't mind paying for it.
Well, it depends on the size of course, how big is
this thing?
/P
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:16:37 +0200
> From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: the new manx is live
> Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at
classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
This is a semiuseful tool:
Good work everyone! Manx is an awesome tool! Many
thanks.
/Pontus
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:10:28AM +0200, Torfinn
Ingolfsen wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard
<legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
> > > Manx is an online catalog of computer
documentation.
> > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site.
> Details:
> root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org
> traceroute to classiccmp.org (209.145.140.17), 64
hops max, 52 byte
packets
> 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms
0.158 ms
> 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms
86.825 ms
> 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1)
15.481 ms 14.011 ms
14.051
> ms
> 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30)
17.763 ms * 59.706 ms
> 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70)
18.365 ms 14.260 ms
> 14.759 ms
> 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088
ms 14.948 ms 14.765
ms
> 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331
ms 27.930 ms 28.293
ms
> 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114)
78.106 ms 34.255 ms
34.479
ms
> 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142)
67.265 ms
> ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123)
44.158 ms
> ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142)
50.006 ms
> 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490
ms
> ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347
ms
> ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628
ms
> 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net
(213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms
42.313
> ms 40.571 ms
> 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms
> te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.31.245) 132.058
ms
> te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.26.101) 147.305
ms
> 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.42.113) 140.836
ms
> te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.226) 152.265
ms
> te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.31.241) 135.140
ms
> 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.206) 143.202
ms
> te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.40.210) 157.894
ms
> 147.097 ms
> 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com
(154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms
150.014
> ms 150.329 ms
> 16
vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170)
167.084
> ms 156.374 ms
>
vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166)
158.136
> ms
> 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms
155.902 ms 152.225 ms
> 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893
ms 179.548 ms 167.528
ms
> 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22)
157.149 ms 151.804 ms
151.915
> ms
> 20 * * *
> 21 * * *
> 22 * * *
> 23 * * *
> 24 * * *
> 25 * * *
> 26 * * *
> 27 * * *
> 28 * * *
> 29 * * *
> 30 * * *
> 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517
ms !X *
> 32 * * *
> 33 * * *
> 34 * * *
> 35 * * *
> 36 * * *
> 37 * * *
> 38 * * *
> 39 * * *
> 40 * * *
> 41 * * *
> 42 * * *
> 43 * * *
> 44 * * *
> 45 * * *
> 46 * * *
> 47 * * *
> 48 * * *
> 49 * * *
> 50 * * *
> 51 * * *
> 52 * * *
> 53 * * *
> 54 * * *
> 55 * * *
> 56 * * *
> 57 * * *
> 58 * * *
> 59 * * *
> 60 * * *
> 61 * * *
> 62 * * *
> 63 * * *
> 64 * * *
> root at kg-quiet#
> > Is it working ok for everyone else?
> --
> Regards,
> Torfinn Ingolfsen
> Oslo, Norway
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:57:55 -0500
> From: Nick Allen <nick.allen at comcast.net Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a
PC (Operation
Alto Restoration)
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Message-ID: <4CC0E193.9070101 at comcast.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
Al and everyone else,
I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo
Model 31 with a
PC computer (I assume so, since he uploaded the Alto
diskpacks up to
bitsavers.org). Al, Can you (or anyone else) please
provide the steps
on how to do so?
If I can verify the disk drive is working, and the
disk packs have valid
data on them, this would be yet another step completed
in getting the
alto up and running =)
Thanks!
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:26:49 -0500
> From: Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/18/2010 6:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote:
> >> From: Christian Corti<cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote:
>>> don't believe its true, I was told my
machine is currently the oldest
>>> original working computer. Not counting
replicas or machines which
don't
>>> have stored programs. My machine was
installed in 1962 (and designed
in
>>> the late 1950s).
> > >> Then you've been told wrong.
>> Several examples:
>> - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still
working with peripherals.
Just
>> yesterday I've had a group of
visitors. It's been designed around
1954.
>> - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in
Sindelfingen (working)
>> - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also
built around 1958
(apparently
>> still working, although the ZKM is not the
right place for it IMHO)
>> All are original first generation machines,
and all of them are in
>> southern Germany.
> > >>> restored was first installed in 1964. Are
there other? I'm not
counting
>>> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored
program machine, and anyway
I'm
>>> not sure if it is a replica or the
original. It is surprising if it
>>> survived the extensive bombing by the
USAF and RAF during WW2 unless
it
>>> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine.
> > >> What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has
been destroyed, yes, and
>> rebuilt by Zuse in 1962.
> > Thank you, this is just the information I wanted.
> > Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete?
> > If it is, then it would be useful to know when
the rebuilt version
became operational, though I'm not actually sure
the actual month my
machine went live either.
> > Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program,
than my list so far is:
> > 1958, LGP-30
> 1958, Zuse Z22
> Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650
> 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest
surviving machine with
random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and
called Immediate
Access Store by ICT).
> > Thanks again.
> > I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of
several more when I
catch up with my e-mails.
> According to this:
650 was installed at a customer site in December,
1954.
I thought this was pretty interesting as well:
It indicates the 701 was around in 1952. I'm not
sure if you want to
limit your list to core memory or not. It appears
that the 701's
internal memory consisted of a drum and a CRT. In any
case, I need to
waste a lot more time exploring these pages. :-)
Later,
Charlie C.
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:23:44 -0700
> From: "r.stricklin" <bear at typewritten.org Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at
classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII;
format=flowed
On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
> When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and
down
> but the tape drive motor doesn't move.
> Is this normal?
It could be, depending on firmware.
ok
bear
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:53:46 +0200
> From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Message-ID: <20101022085346.5c1f9ec0.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:00 +0100
Roger Holmes <roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk>
wrote:
> 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest
surviving machine
> with random access program and data storage.
Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and
data storage,
just with a bit lattency...
I don't know how and when the Z22 at the ZKM is
operated now. When it
moved to the ZKM there where weekly operating hours
with demonstrations
done by the former maintainers of the machine.
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST)
> From: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored
program etc)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII;
format=flowed
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and
data storage,
> just with a bit lattency...
Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access.
A random access
storage is defined by the fact that addressing any
arbitrary cell needs
the same time.
But the Z22 has a small amount of core memory, too,
called
"Schnellspeicher", i.e. "fast
memory".
Christian
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:11:53 +0100
> From: Roger Holmes <roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Subject: RE: Oldest original working proper computer
(stored program
etc)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Message-ID: <C1C3379B-1DCB-412A-B3C3-43252EF6DC0E at microspot.co.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> And we have a winner!!
> > The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948)
> It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube,
enough to demonstrate
the
> stored-program principle in working electronics,
the first in the world
to
> do so
> > Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A
von Neumann
> ?
No, sorry the ORIGINAL Manchester Baby no longer
exists. Fellow members
of
the Computer Conservation Society have built a
replica, correct in almost
every respect but it is only a few years old so does
not qualify as
oldest
original working stored program computer. I still
would like to make a
list of the top ten not just the top one.
------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:11:20 +1100
> From: Simon Fryer <fryers at gmail.com Subject: Re: lilith computer by wikipedia
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinYKzyw+HKKc3FS9EAFdkrLis0n1NX-KnAO=rcx at mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 22/10/2010, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Yes, and made the mistake of buying one.
Couldn't believe it when it
>> actually arrived. I left an interesting
review on Amazon.
> > Do you happen to remember the title (or have a
URL) for this? I wonder
> how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles
feel about this? I
know
> I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with
something I'd written.
ISBN 10: 1155452186
ISBN 13: 978-1155452180
Title: ICL Mainframe Computers: Leo, English Electric
Kdf8, Elliott
803, Ict 1900, ICL 2900 Series, English Electric Kdf9,
Ict 1301
By: Books LLC
Electric/dp/1155452186/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
>> Only upside, it is in a more convenient
format for reading while on
the
>> toilet.
> > And for other uses in that location?
The paper isn't really too soft. It might be okay
in an emergency.
Simon
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well, an engineer is not concerned with the
truth; that is left to
philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an
engineer is
the utility of the final product."
Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials,
L.Solymar, D.Walsh
------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:27:37 -0700
> From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack
on a PC
(Operation Alto Restoration)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Message-ID: <4CC19149.5030409 at bitsavers.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/21/10 5:57 PM, Nick Allen wrote:
> Al and everyone else,
> > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo
Model 31 with a PC
computer
I used a program that runs on the Alto and copies
sectors across through
a
PC parallel port.
Could you take pictures of the labels on the packs? I
normally supplied a
couple of them
with the machines that came from me, and could tell
pretty quickly if
they
need to be copied.
------------------------------
Message: 25
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:07:24 -0700
> From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com Subject: RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
> From: cclist at sydex.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700
> Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
> On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote:
> > > I just got this use drive and I was
wondering if it
> > is working as expected.
> > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and
down
> > but the tape drive motor
doesn't move.
> > Is this normal?
> My recollection of this drive is that the tape should
be
> automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e.,
the drive
> should spin the tape a bit).
> --Chuck
> Thanks Chuck
I was afraid of that. That was my recollection
of similar drives. Now I have to find out why the
motor
doesn't spin.
As I recalled, if the tape was accidentally loaded
with the end of tape marker off the spool, it would
unspool the hole thing and it would then be a 30
minute job to spool it back on.
I'll have to look at the motor drive and see what
is up.
The fact that I see the head moving gives me
confidence
that it is most likely the motor drive circuit.
This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you
recall
my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I
thought
I'd try a drive that was inteneded.
Dwight
Dwight
------------------------------
Message: 26
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:13:34 -0400
> From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
On 10/22/10 10:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
> This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you
recall
> my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I
thought
> I'd try a drive that was inteneded.
8mm drives were sold with early SPARCstations and
SPARCservers as
well, FYI. An 8mm drive will work fine if it's
properly set up.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46
**************************************
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:40:43 -0500
From: Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com At 9:00 AM -0700 10/23/10, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum".
It comes in more than that. There's also the IIe enhanced model
(pre-platinum), and you'll also find IIGS upgrade versions out there.
Marty
End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 52
**************************************