23 May
2020
23 May
'20
8:13 p.m.
On 5/23/2020 1:55 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
The C64 also had a very expensive floppy disk drive (with its own
onboard 6502 derivative, ROM & RAM) but a _serial_ interface to the
computer, so it was both dog-slow and very pricey.
The serial interface would have
been fast enough, if the MOS folks had
talked to the design team about the bug and squashed it early. But, they
did not, and on the VIC-20, which did not expect to move many drives, no
one cared.? When the VIC-40 (c64) came out, by then the drive was more
important, but no one was going to redo the drive again (they tried to
put a new trace on the IEC bus to enable fast mode later, but it got
optimized out in final layout in Japan).
All because CBM cheaped out and used a late-1970s MS BASIC in an
early-1980s machine with for the time quite high-end graphics and
sound.
You say that like CBM was known for not "cheaping" out and this
was an
anomaly.? Bil Herd noted that they designed the 64 to last just as long
as the warrantee.
It is also largely responsible, all on its own, for a
lot of the bad
reputation that BASIC has to this day, which in turn was in part
responsible for the industry's move away from minis programmed in
BASIC (DEC, Alpha Micro, etc.) and towards *nix programmed in C, and
*nix rivals such as OS/2 and Windows, also programmed in C.
Oh, I think that's
a stretch.? Because of the system's ubiquity, there
are plenty of BASIC upgrades available to add the requisite audio and
video options.? BASIC had other issues, Commodore can't take credit for
giving it a bad name.
It sounds ridiculous but I seriously propose that much
of this is
because *the* #1 home computer vendor in the Western world kept using
a cheap and nasty BASIC for nearly a decade after its sell-by date.
As a home user
of the machine back int he day, I highly disagree. We all
had fixed the BAD BASIC and slow drive issues a few years after intro.?
By 1984, everyone had fastload or JiffyDOS or SpeeDOS or similar, and
BASIC 4.0 or even better BASICs were always available.? It was a games
machine, with a rightly limited BASIC (you want more feature, buy the
add-in.? It was like the in app purchases of today's games)
CBM had no real idea what it was doing. It sold lots of PETs, then
lots more VIC-20s, then literally millions of C64s, without ever
improving the onboard software to match the hardware.
I think you just don't
agree with what they were doing.? Jack was
selling game machines that had enough computing power to satisfy Mom and
Dad's edict that the kids not just have a game console.? If you wanted
good use of video or audio, you bought from CBM or the third party.?
BASIC was minimal, because you had to have something to load the game :-)
So what did it do next? A very expensive portable version, for all the
businesspeople who needed a luggable home gaming computer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_SX-64
Oh come on.? The Osborne had the same
size screen and sold well. Dipping
their toe in that market to sell hardware doesn't seem such a stretch to me.
Then it tried to sell incompatible successor machines, which failed --
the Commodore 16 and Plus 4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_16
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_Plus/4
I can't argue that, but the machines weren't supposed to exist. Jack
wanted a Sinclair killer to mop up the low end of the market.? The C116
was that machine (complete with crappy chicklet KB and wedge form
factor, priced at $USD49.00.? It was Jack and Gould's falling out that
caused Jack to quit caring about the machine (which less competent
minions decided to promote up into a business machine (+4) and a
slightly larger form factor without the hideous chicklet KB (C16). They
even toyed with a supersized +4 for a time (CV364), but I will agree
with your angst on this line of machines.
Better BASIC, bundled ROM business apps -- why?! -- but *not* superior
replacements for its best-selling line. Both flopped horribly.
Yep, as did the
C116, which I think was only released in Japan.
CBM apparently still had no real clue _why_ the C64 was a massive hit,
or who was buying it, or why.
Jack knew.? Sell low cost machines with good value to
mop up market
share and make money.? Put only the bare minimum in them. Folks after
him did not agree, which I do think fits in with your statement.
Later it offered the C128, which had multiple operating modes,
including a much better BASIC and an 80-column display, but also an
entire incompatible 2nd processor -- a Z80 so it could run CP/M. This
being the successor model to the early-'80s home computer used by
millions of children to play video games. They really did not want,
need or care about _CP/M_ of all things.
Again, misleading.? The Z80 was not a
design goal.? a 2MHz C64
compatible with 80 columns was the design goal.? THank the Z80 on some
Marketing shmuck that promised CP/M compatibility on the unit (thinking
the C64 CP/M cart would work, which it can't, because the cart is badly
designed, I am told it was a bit f plagiarism from an Apple II CP/M
card, but failed to take into account the strange C64 bus cycle).? Bil
is around and can happily tell you the story of simply designing the Z80
cart into the main motherboard to checkoff the requirement and quit
having to fight to get the cart to work.
There was _nearly_ another, incompatible of course,
successor model
later still, the C65:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_65
*That* would have been a worthy successor, but by then, CBM had bought
the Amiga and wasn't interested any more.
CBM really wasn't interested as soon as the Amiga purchase happened.? I
think the C128 only got greenlit because CBM needed some cash flow and
the Amiga was taking too long to ramp up sales.?? In my opinion, the C65
was an early retro machine, trying to bring back some of that 80's home
computer vibe.
Jim