"Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)

--- Doc <doc(a)mdrconsult.com> wrote: I'm not so sure I understand what Dick is asserting here... If he means "no internal mass storage; all disks external", I think we can all come up with a raft of exceptions (from my own collection, DECMate I, VAX-11/750, PDP-11/70, VAX 8200, PDP-8/L, MINC-11... hardly computers for the "toy market"). One might argue that mini-computers would not be confused with toys, but from a form-factor standpoint, A DECmate-I CPU, for example, is smaller than a TRS-80 Model III. A MINC-11 isn't particularly large compared to a full-tower case (and the BA32 that contains is about the same size; the 42" rack just has room for cables; no active components). If he means "no internal mass storage interface", he might have something of a point. Ignoring audio cassette, I can think of few computers more complicated than a traditional "single-board" computer that lack an in- cabinet mass storage interface. The PET, VIC-20 and C-64 all interface to disks (floppy _and_ fixed (D9060/D9090 for the PET, anyway)) without any sort of hardware or ROM pgrade, but the disk is external. The ZX-80- family lacks any sort of internal disk interface. The Elf, the VIP, the KIM, SYM, AIM-65, etc., all SBCs and all lacking disk interfaces. Non- Zorro-equipped Amigas (A1000, A500, A500+) have floppy but not hard disk interfaces in-box, but the A600 and A1200 have 44-pin internal IDE ports. Does that make the A500 a toy, but not the A600? I would propose that the label "toy" might be suitable for machines that have external disk controllers _and_ an external network interface (if any; I'll bend and accept a serial port as a network interface if it runs some network protocol - SLIP, PPP, LocalTalk, DDCMP...) I'm not sure how to classify single-boards, though. By the nature of them being simplistic in design and user-interface, they appeal to the electronics hobby market more than the home/kids market. Kids wanted a TI-99/4 or a VIC-20 or a C-64. Kids were not so enthusiastic about a Z-80 starter kit (which happens to have two S-100 slots and an intergral EPROM burner) or a KIM-1 or a COSMAC Elf. Mind you, I love toy computers. They have been fun and profitable for me. Others, though, need that "bittybox" label to glorify whatever they like at the expense of others. Let's at least agree on what constitutes a "toy", even in the most general of terms. Meanwhile... Back To The Toys! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/