cctalk Digest, Vol 121, Issue 6

Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle (David Riley) 2. Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 (Paul Anderson) 3. Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 (Paul Anderson) 4. Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle (Jan-Benedict Glaw) 5. Re: Looking for software archive for "DRAM Camera" (David Ryskalczyk) 6. Re: SAA5070 Datasheet (Tony Duell?) (Tony Duell) 7. Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle (Tony Duell) 8. Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle (Tony Duell) 9. Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 (Tony Duell) 10. Re: SAA5070 Datasheet (Tony Duell?) (Alexandre Souza) 11. Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle (David Riley) 12. Re: SAA5070 Datasheet (Tony Duell?) (Peter Corlett) 13. Re: FS: 1200 baud external modem (Tothwolf) 14. Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle (Tothwolf) 15. Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle (Tothwolf) 16. Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle (Tothwolf) 17. Teletype Corp. motors (Jules Richardson) 18. Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 (Richard) 19. Re: PNG image decompression (Andrew Burton) 20. Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 (Paul Anderson) 21. Re: Toshiba CD-1000C Cartridge Tape Drive (Paxton Hoag) 22. Shameless push: HP 82231C Viper board on ebay (Rik Bos) 23. Looking for some basic, older tech... (Jonathan Katz) 24. Rare opportunity for IC chips dating back to the 70s; these are NEW (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 13:46:27 -0400 From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle Message-ID: <F6678946-DB72-48FD-B637-B53DD092AE0D at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On Sep 5, 2013, at 11:02 AM, emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote: I believe (though I could be wrong) that it is a 6P4C, but not technically an RJ11 (that refers to not only the plug style, but also the wiring scheme; in particular, RJ11 specifies 6P2C, while RJ14 specifies 6P4C, but neither of them are necessarily RJ-anything). If you're trying to buy the plugs, though, you probably want to search for RJ11 because that's what most stores sell them as (just like you want to search for "DB9" serial plugs when you really want DE9 plugs). - Dave ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 13:04:43 -0500 From: Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 Message-ID: <CACwhfuOd_wzDBDRfuHX1w8C_nbGvBEW-r_sXoCfwKZ64gqamjQ at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have extra VT11s, but I'm also looking the VR14 or 17. I have a VR12 but I think it might have to get hacked to use on the VT11. On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 13:11:51 -0500 From: Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 Message-ID: <CACwhfuPHRVrNit1wqH2txJfvZho79YmwawJDdkbTk41o3H5jCg at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 By the way, the M7014 and M7014-YA are only different in that the -YA has on board terminators, I think. The VT!! backplane is the weirdest unibus backplane I ever saw. It's a 4 slot backplane with 3 hex boards in it, plus unibus in and out. Be very careful installing it. Think about it... Paul On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote: ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 20:49:36 +0200 From: Jan-Benedict Glaw <jbglaw at lug-owl.de> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle Message-ID: <20130905184936.GF3218 at lug-owl.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Thu, 2013-09-05 09:02:44 -0600, emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote: I think it's 4p4c. However, the jacks are built so that a "smaller" plug will even fit into a larger jack, so a 6p6c (RJ11, RJ12, RJ13 and some more) will also work. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf the second : f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 15:03:53 -0400 From: David Ryskalczyk <d235j.1 at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Looking for software archive for "DRAM Camera" Message-ID: <CAB3bDi6yiL1DYm4iG0bAZds=-XM0Wre4mgri5MQSSyTd4_jcAg at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 A quick google and I found it here: ftp://moscoso.org/pub/electronics/cookbook/video/index.html ftp://moscoso.org/pub/electronics/cookbook/video/kuckuck.zip --Dave On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 19:49:42 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: SAA5070 Datasheet (Tony Duell?) Message-ID: <m1VHecm-000J4cC at p850ug1> Content-Type: text/plain Yes, the data sheet was not published in the common data book that included the rest of the teletext IC chipset. I thought I had the data sheet somewhere too. Doubtless it will turn up sometime. That does sound useful. If you have it electronically, or can scan the page(s) with the SAA5070 pinout, could you send it to my other account at tony_duell at yahoo.co.uk THnaks in advance. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 19:55:01 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle Message-ID: <m1VHehu-000J4dC at p850ug1> Content-Type: text/plain > No, it looks like a 4p4c to me. The first digit gives the number of 'positions' (the maximum number of contacts there could be), the second gives the number of contacts actually fitted. It's not an RJ-anything (just as the 10baseT ethenet conenctor is not an RJ45, it's an 8p8c, nothing more). RJ11 (or whatever) implies a particular set of ocnnections for telephone wiring. This can never be right for a keyboard. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 19:58:29 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle Message-ID: <m1VHelG-000J4eC at p850ug1> Content-Type: text/plain It looks narrower than a 6p housing to me... I would check. If yoy are in the States, the common telephone plug is a 6p2c or 6p4c. If it looks narrower than that, it's a 4p4c. Over here they are often listed as 'FCC68' connectors. I am not sure what FCC regualtions part 68 actually specifies, but I assume that's where the name comes from. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 20:04:08 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 Message-ID: <m1VHeqk-000J4fC at p850ug1> Content-Type: text/plain One version of one of the boards (M7014?) had the GT40 firmware ROMs on it too. nybble-wide PROMs, I forget how big (256 locations?). All the boards had the positions for these ROMs, you can solder them in (or fit sockets) if you wnt to. There may be some bufferes to add too, but it's fairly obvious. I can't rememebr about bus termination, if it was an option, it'll just be a load of resistors to add I think Unibus In is in the normal place, Unibus Out is below it. So if it's the last backplane in the syustem there's no problem, just put in the M920 jumber as usual and an M930 terminator in the slot below it. If it's the last backplane in a cabinet, that's no problem either, again fit the M920 as usual and plug the Unibus ribbon cable going to the next box into the Unibus Out slot under the M920. But if it's in the middle of a box, you ahve to run a cable from the Unibus out slot to the Unibus In of the next backplane. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 16:39:28 -0300 From: "Alexandre Souza" <alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: SAA5070 Datasheet (Tony Duell?) Message-ID: <06537B162ABB4E6692D88C7470937C30 at desktaba> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original There are only 4 pages of info, but here it is...(sent to Tony) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 3:49 PM Subject: Re: SAA5070 Datasheet (Tony Duell?) ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 16:02:23 -0400 From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle Message-ID: <3BD92993-C255-45A6-8A7F-CF96B3BB8DC3 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 5, 2013, at 2:58 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: Given what everyone has said, that's probably true, though I thought the jack was wide enough to accomodate a 6P plug (the ones that are actually attached to the keyboards are 4P, though). I have quite a few in my basement, but I can't go down to look just now. Fascinating... that's probably the most useless specification I've seen in a while, considering that most Europeans have no need to know a damned thing about FCC regulations. - Dave ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 21:05:19 +0100 From: Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: SAA5070 Datasheet (Tony Duell?) Message-ID: <20130905200518.GA11954 at mooli.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Sep 03, 2013 at 04:28:27PM -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: There's a little bit of information on pp. 166-169 of this PDF that I found rattling around: http://abuse.mooli.org.uk/1982_Signetics_MOS_Microprocessor_Data_Manual.pdf ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 15:05:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: FS: 1200 baud external modem Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1309051448130.4802 at brioche.invalid.domain> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, Charles wrote: Going from my modem doc archives, I think this modem was made by Capetronic and is a model MD1207. I'm pretty sure you are correct about it being 1200 baud. In fact, if you search down for 1207 in this list you'll find it listed: http://cd.textfiles.com/pcmedic/main/referenc/text/modem_s.txt BSR (Birmingham Sound Reproducers) had remarketing division that in the mid to late 1990s would buy low end and nearly obsolete computer upgrade type parts (cdrom drives, sound cards, modems, etc) which would rebrand them with their red BSR logo and then sell them via mail order out of computer magazines (Computer Shopper, etc). I still have a proprietary interface single speed caddy-type cdrom drive and 8-bit ISA interface/sound card that someone I knew purchased from them in the 1990s who was under the impression at the time that it was a modern "Soundblaster" card and fast 4x cdrom drive. He got a few years use out of it before it was replaced with a real Soundblaster and much faster IDE interface cdrom drive. ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 15:12:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1309051507000.4802 at brioche.invalid.domain> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: No, generally one should not use a smaller modular plug in a larger modular jack. Most plugs do not have relief slots next to the outermost contacts and the polycarbonate plug body will permanently deform the outer contacts in the modular jack. This happens a lot with 8P8C (RJ45) jacks that people attempt to plug phones into that use 6P4C, 6P2C, etc (RJ11) plugs. There /are/ a few 6P type modular plugs out there that do have relief openings that will somewhat fit 8P8C jacks, but they are very uncommon. The plug fit is still loose and it isn't something the modular plug standards (from Bell System) ever really intended. ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 15:18:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1309051518280.4802 at brioche.invalid.domain> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, David Riley wrote: > On Sep 5, 2013, at 11:02 AM, emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> probably a stupid one, but we have so much fun here discussing the >> right nomenclature of connectors ;-) >> >> I'm looking for the right jack/receptacle for a lk201 keyboard for an >> keyboard adapter. >> >> so, is this a "RJ11 6p4c"? > > I believe (though I could be wrong) that it is a 6P4C, but not > technically an RJ11 (that refers to not only the plug style, > but also the wiring scheme; in particular, RJ11 specifies 6P2C, > while RJ14 specifies 6P4C, but neither of them are necessarily > RJ-anything). > That's pretty much the gist of it. I had to push very hard to get the RJ11, RJ45, etc stuff corrected on Wikipedia but eventually prevailed. The main argument had been that "well, /everyone/ calls them RJ11, RJ45, etc", however in the end, there was plenty of documentation on the misuse of the RJ (Registered Jack) nomenclature. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 15:51:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: dec lk201 keyboard plug and receptacle Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1309051519060.4802 at brioche.invalid.domain> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, Tony Duell wrote: The Registered Jack system/standards came out of Bell System and was used to replace the hard-wired system for their phones. The FCC adopted the Registered Jack standards into Part 68 as part of the later deregulation. This was well before any sort of IEC adoption of these modular connectors, although it looks like Wikipedia currently gets that partly wrong. Sigh. Technically a 4P4C "handset cord" plug doesn't even have a Registered Jack designation, since RJ11, RJ14, etc only apply to the telephone interface itself, but that didn't stop people from calling them RJ9, RJ10, RJ22, etc, similar to people calling 10P10C plugs RJ50. ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2013 16:03:16 -0500 From: Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Teletype Corp. motors Message-ID: <5228F194.5040002 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed I found a small pile of boxed NOS Teletype corp. motors in a junk store earlier: small, p/n 177870 (115VAC, 3250rpm at 60Hz) small w/reduction gearbox, p/n 193958 (115VAC, 110rpm at 60Hz) medium, p/n 319392 (115VAC, 1725rpm at 60Hz) medium dual-shaft, p/n 337286 (115VAC, 3600rpm at 60Hz) medium with frame, capacitor & thermal reset, "28F motor unit" (3600rpm at 60Hz) medium dual-shaft, p/n 195801 (115V, 3600rpm at 60Hz) large, p/n 159739, marked as "unit motor 28C" There are a few dates which place them around the late 1960's / early 1970's. There's a wiring diagram in with the "28F motor unit" which claims to be for "CXB-1 and MU43 motor unit". Any ideas what equipment they were for? Model 28 machine, perhaps, given the 28C and 28F references... cheers Jules ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2013 15:22:40 -0600 From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 Message-ID: <E1VHh0i-0001LD-KW at shell.xmission.com> In article <CACwhfuOd_wzDBDRfuHX1w8C_nbGvBEW-r_sXoCfwKZ64gqamjQ at mail.gmail.com>, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> writes: We talked about it on the phone, but I never got any pictures or a price. The ball is in your court. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 22:38:17 +0100 From: "Andrew Burton" <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: PNG image decompression Message-ID: <004501ceaa80$44836280$2efdf93e at user8459cef6fa> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" <pet4032 at gmail.com> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 3:36 AM Subject: Re: PNG image decompression Apologies for the slow reply... I have just finished (as of Tuesday 3rd Sept) the ASM code to decode 16 colour images produced by Personal Paint (Amiga). I have started adding code to decode 16 colour images from MS Paint - which shouldn't take long as all the hard work decoding the IDAT data has already been done :) Here's a link to a page where all the latest info regarding my game will be displayed. http://www.aliensrcooluk.com/mysite/glists/my_amigagames2 You can find a list of new Amiga games on the English Amiga Board too: http://eab.abime.net/amiga-scene/68891-amiga-games-wip-released-index.html Mine isn't listed their yet. Once it is playable I shall ask them to add it to the list :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 17:15:51 -0500 From: Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Wanted: DEC VT11 with VR14/VR17 Message-ID: <CACwhfuO16pevQN5bwxnsDnEBTS3scgpqP3cf0=2+dSEDHxzdqw at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sorry Richard, that was 2 or 3 surgeries ago. On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2013 18:04:14 -0700 From: Paxton Hoag <innfoclassics at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Toshiba CD-1000C Cartridge Tape Drive Message-ID: <CAL2B=mH-RopS6kXSdwZr_kw3g4-L-bwcCp8khqF5QBF+Sed0eQ at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I had a couple of those go through my hands. I really liked them although they were not successful. The hard drives were 15 meg and it would take two modules. I would be surprised if the tape drive was larger than 30meg. Looking forward to pictures. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 11:16:50 +0200 From: "Rik Bos" <hp-fix at xs4all.nl> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Shameless push: HP 82231C Viper board on ebay Message-ID: &lt;001201ceaae1$d5558c00$8000a400$(a)xs4all.nl&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I placed one of my Viper boards on epay, it includes manuals and software. Item: 370891646638 I also placed some HP-41 Application Pac's on epay Petroleum Fluids Navigation Math Stat And others Some items are auctions other fixed price. For fixed price items I'm always open for reasonable offers. -Rik ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 09:07:21 -0400 From: Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Looking for some basic, older tech... Message-ID: <CAEOZr+3-bQ-8qXdCqqr5m5YY1ksP7eHLuqAA3pn=i0MX4VNARQ at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 All, I'm working on my STEM outreach project, and I need some "props." These items can be broken, as they're supposed to be passed around and examined by elementary-school aged children. I'm looking for the following... Punch Cards (used, unused, scrap, etc.) 8" Floppy Paper Tape(?) Sextant (long shot, I know. I'm reaching out to some pilots I know.) -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 10:23:39 -0500 From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Rare opportunity for IC chips dating back to the 70s; these are NEW Message-ID: <01ad01ceab15$10224f70$3066ee50$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One of my recyclers has provided me with an Excel spreadsheet of IC chips that date back to the 1970s. All are NEW. She is willing to sell in small quantities to end users, and will accept PayPal for payment. Prices are by offer, there is no set pricing. Please be fair, since this is an experiment to see if she will let me offer other old stuff out to the end users. Please email me at sales at elecplus.com if you want the spreadsheet. I will include instructions for contacting her directly. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3222/6641 - Release Date: 09/05/13 End of cctalk Digest, Vol 121, Issue 6 **************************************