A tree to grow

You wrote.... I would ask that you consider my view - your statements (before mine) asserting that I didn't have the right to make that decision were considered arrogant by me. That would most understandably cause my response to be a tad bit bristling (especially given the private complaints I was getting), whether you agree with my position or not. This is revisionist history (or at least incomplete). Where have you been? There's been lots of fierce discussion about weapons and cars (and other things) since Bill left. Remember M. Sokolov? And they didn't come back on-topic in any natural way I can assure you. I generally was taking people to task off-list (or getting yelled at privately for not doing so) to bring it back on-topic. Sometimes I had to yell publicly. As you aren't the list admin, you don't see the whole picture. You don't see the almost daily complaints I get about people talking about those weapons or cars to an extensive degree. You get the pleasure of being blissfully unaware. I get rather frequent emails from people saying they will unsub if those types of discussions don't stop (and some of those are long term members who contribute frequently with quality posts). This has been a problem for a long time, so much so that the list had to be split because of it. I fought this, but grudgingly agreed. I would not have agreed if I had any idea how much work on my end that would create on an on-going basis. And even after the list was split, right up to today, I have received constant complaints about the off-topicness of cctalk. Sooner or later, I need to do the right thing, and that will invariably upset some people. You obviously have no clue how much heat I get on a regular basis about this. Must be nice to just sit back and enjoy the environment here and assume it's just wonderful naturally. You're welcome. Originally, the ten year rule was "an arbitrary thing". It was not picked with precision nor with real specific reason. With regards to the revocation of same, I honestly don't know where you were when this was discussed at GREAT length, MORE THAN ONCE on the list. Every time it was brought up - after discussion on the list - I went with the idea that the 10 year rule wasn't appropriate anymore. Most people on the list agreed. And when a few people keep bringing up an issue that was already beat to death so badly the horse was unrecognizable... sooner or later I'm going to say "enough". I totally disagree with your characterization that I am being dictatorial or setting up oppressive rules. And in all honestly, I think a majority of the list wouldn't characterize my past (nor present) behaviour that way. I think I've earned the benefit of the doubt that you seem to reserve. Dare I say, this 'freedom' you speak of tore the list apart, vis-a-vis cctalk vs. cctech. I like to think that in some *small* way it was *partly* my leadership and accomodation to all parties that got us through that (as well as a few other "crisis"). In addition, over the past roughly decade here... I can only think of one time I went against the lists wishes, and that was when a majority of the list wanted Sellam banned. I overruled the list on that. Other than that one example, I have always built consensus. So you'll hopefully pardon me if I get a little non-plussed when someone approaches me with a "who died and made you god" attitude for one of the very rare times I get pushed to the point of finally putting my foot down in the best interests of the list. I have been operating under the concept that I own the list for what, almost 10 years now. So are you telling me that just now I'm attempting to rule and place restrictions? Nothing has changed other than your perception. And my "rule" has gone on for years now and the list has done well despite some serious issues. In addition, I'm taking away one rule and replacing it with a different definition. So I've got a problem with your assertion that I'm placing all kinds of restrictions and "ruling". Your characterization doesn't hold water. ... snip ... Hans, much of what you say of the past history of the list is completely correct and great concepts. But you have to realize that the small like-minded group of friends that started the list is not the same group as the 1500+ members now here. I do try to maintain that sense of community and libertarian ethos, but it's just not always 100% possible 100% of the time. As to ownership of the list... I believe you were around for all of this but apparently not. When I first started administering the list because it had actually been yanked off Bill's server and was down completely... in the normal course of events listmember issues came up every so often the first year. Things like so and so should be banned, the list has gone too far off-topic, yada yada yada. I would receive lots of private emails saying "please make a decision!". I would refuse, saying "hey, it's not my list. I'm just adminning it - I don't want to make the call - let the list decide". Many people replied "no, it is your list now, it belongs to you, step up to the plate and make the decision". I did, but felt uncomfortable with it. Then a few weeks or months later another issue would come up and I would not address it because I didn't want to be dictatorial (surely some here remember me using that word to convey the sentiment!) - I wanted the list membership to decide. Same thing would happen, I'd get a flood of email - some on the list - some privately - specifically saying "Jay, you own the list now, do whatever you want and make the decisions". This cycle repeated quite a few times for subsequent issues. Finally, it was patently obvious to me that a majority of the list considered it my list as in ownership. I have thus been operating with that capacity for years now. And guess what... I still go to the list to build consensus for virtually everything. Often, but not always, it's hard to get real consensus on the list (believe it or not). Often, somethings really come down to a single quick decision being made. I'm not going to shy away from that. In the final analysis... your complaint seems to center around the apparent conviction that I will make excessive rules. I think that has been quite thoroughly proven over the past 10 years or so to be incorrect. As far as the list just totally "flowing freely", that will not work once you get past a small group of friends. The history of the list has more than proven that. Jay PS - I don't know for sure exactly how long I've been running the list. I am guessing just under 10 years. I may be off a few years. I'm not going to take the time to pick up the exact date.