- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

PING Ed Sharpe

by jpl15＠panix.com

Please contact me privately *off-list* - thank you. Cheers John

21 years, 6 months

1
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Paul Kondig and Jerome Fine and others- collector's list

by mahoneyb＠gmail.com

A short update on the collector's list which I maintain here : http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/ (Paul and Jerome, if you read this, I need your current email address as the ones I have keep getting bounced.) If other collectors want to be on this list, check it out to see if it is in a format you wish to be associated with, and email me here : antiquecomputers(a)hotmail.com Don't reply to the list or to this address (I'll miss it) with a complete listing of your address, email, phone number (if you want) and list of interests in the computer collecting area. Thanks. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming. BM

21 years, 6 months

1
0
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Relay computers

by avickers＠solutionengineers.com

At 22:50 23/09/2004, you wrote: >On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 11:17 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite possibly the > > > coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though: > > > > > > http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html > > > > Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF. > > > > The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design > > work. > >Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't know >any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control >system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to >them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams. I did some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations (i.e. they might be completely & utterly wrong, in which case I'd appreciate corrections) on a relay computer... Assume you want a Z80-type CPU. This has ~8k gates. Typically, it seems to take 1 relay per input to implement any given gate. Now, I don't know how many "x-input" gates there are in a Z80, so I'll assume that - on average - it will require 3 relays/gate. Thus, we need ~24,000 relays to implement the Z80. If each relay needs, say, 25mA @ 6v to operate, then the peak current draw of our R80 (as I shall call it) could be around 600A (I think). And that's before we've added memory, i/o, etc. As for the heat/noise - well, IMHO it's worth building it just to experience that! Mind you, you'll need a lot of room: If you use 30mm by 13mm relays, then the board space you need is at least 9.36 square metres... Still, if you assume that each board needs approx 40mm of space incl. airflow room, then you should be able to fit the R80 into 2 400mm by 400mm by 2000mm cabinets (internal w/d/h)... The relays I've been looking at typically quote around 25ms to operate (either way), so I don't see how you could clock the R80 at anything faster than around 40Hz; and you'd probably want to drop to 20Hz to be on the safe side. The same relays quote a typical lifetime of 10e7 operations; so at 20Hz, your R80 should last a little under 139 continuous hours of operation before relays started failing... Creating a screen driver should be interesting.... Question: Wouldn't it be easier to implement an OR gate with no relays at all (just two wires joining together)? Or would you need to use the relays to keep the output voltage/amperage regulated? Additional: Hunting around for a suitable CPU to implement in relays, I came across the P8 CPU design (http://www.rexfisher.com/P8/P8_TOC.htm). This uses a 74LS181 4-bit ALU, which I reckon would require 149 relays to replicate. The only thing that confuzzles me is: what use, exactly, is a 1-input AND? Several of these appear on the 74LS181 schematic... Cheers, Ade.

21 years, 6 months

15
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1892 calculator on epay

by mcesari＠comcast.net

This looks neat. This guy also has a 1920's "addometer" and a 1890 Stephenson adder. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=1247&item=2272912817&rd=1 I'm not affiliated with seller. Mike

21 years, 6 months

1
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Pong pong pong...

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

Still on my Pong trip, here.. :-) Can anyone tell me how the original Atari arcade Pong (and probably the home version too) interacted between the bat and the ball? (Anyone got one they can hook up and try?) I've found one reference that says the bats were split into 8 segments; but when the ball hit the bat, was the resulting direction of travel influenced *only* by the bat segment hit, or also by the direction of travel at the collision point? Presumably if the ball hits the bat at the nearmost end, then the ball is returned in the exact opposite direction (i.e. reflected back along its path by a simple reverse of direction). But what about the other 7 positions? cheers, Jules

21 years, 6 months

8
8
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I have a Synertek VIM-1

by moturick＠earthlink.net

Hi Guys, I noticed all of you had nostalgic interest in the Synertek VIM-1. I have one, in its old yellowed box, postmarked July, 1978. While I had grandiose intentions when I originally got it, I never put it to use. If any of you have an interest in it, let me know. Rick Wheeler

21 years, 6 months

1
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XP OS and Netscape OT

by millenniumfalcon＠cableone.net

This is off the topic of Classic Computers but in 10 years it will be on topic. I just want to get some answers NOW so that maybe this computer will be around in 10 years. I run XP and Netscape 7.2 I would like to make a backup on CD-RW once a month. In the old days when storage space was precious there were programs that allowed you to backup ONLY the files on the computer that had been updated or added since the last backup. I would like to do the same but haven't found the method. OR in the alternative, I would like to do a FULL backup to a second HD that WOULD BE BOOTABLE by just swapping the HD when the main drive craters, which seems to be the main failure I have, about once every two years. Secondly I would like to know how the save on a floppy or CD all my Netscape email archives and address book and Web Bookmarks and then how to merge them BACK into a new install of Netscape without erasing what is already there. The last time my HD cratered I had saved the address book but nothing else but I could never get it back on to the new install.

21 years, 6 months

2
1
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Has anyone heard from Gary Oliver lately?

by aek＠spies.com

Last email I received from him was in January, and the past couple of emails over a few weeks have gone unanswered.

21 years, 6 months

1
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Dynalogic/Bytec Hyperion Drives?

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

>These two, and another one that I am aware of locally >appear to function, but are suffering from the well known >"bad floppy syndrome", although one of the units does >boot from the B: drive (yes, the hyperion will boot from >either drive). > >Anyone know the details of the floppy drive issues? >(This is a well known problem with Hyperions - I just > never paid attention to it) >Anyone ever fixed a faulty Hyperion drive? The last couple of hours have yielded very satisfying results ... both machines and all four disk drives are now humming along perfectly.... The problem turned out to be very simple - the drives have a head load solinoid, and it was sticking - kept the heads from contacting the media. A bit of cleaning and very light lubrication and all appears to be well. More of a problem getting the drives out than actually fixing them - I read somewhere that one of the big makers had looked at the Hyperion and decided to build their own due to "concerns regarding servicability". I would have to agree with that! I wonder if this is the issue which earned the drives the reputation as being highly unreliable.... ??? Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years, 6 months

1
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Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications

by jec＠jcosper.com

> If anyone has the manual (not sure of its exact title) describing the >modifications necessary to connect an ETA-3400 to an ET-3400, please email >me on or off-list. > Greetings, I received several requests for these: Microprocessor Trainer ET-3400 part number 595-2021-06, copyright date 1977 113 Pages + 3 set Foldout + "price list 10/20/80". Memory and Input/Output Accessory for the ET-3400 part number 595-2271-01, copyright date 1979 95 pages. Memory Input/Output Accessory ETA-3400 (Assembly) part number 595-2170-03, copyright date 1979 57 Pages. + 1 set Foldout. Modification Kit for the Heathkit ET/ETW-3400 and 3400A Microprocessor Trainers Model ETA-3400/EWA-3400. part number 597-1954-02, copyright ???? 21 Pages. I have scanned, and put them here: www.jcosper.com/heathkit.html Later, James.

21 years, 6 months

2
1
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Dynalogic/Bytec Hyperion Drives?

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

Picked up a couple of Hyperions yesterday - if anyone doesn't know what these are, they are the first portable IBM-PC compatible (well - the Hyperion was "mostly" compatible :-) - Made here in Ottawa Canada, they didn't last long due to chronic floppy drive problems and incompatibility issues (and the fact that Compaq came out with a reliable/compatible portable shortly afterward). These two, and another one that I am aware of locally appear to function, but are suffering from the well known "bad floppy syndrome", although one of the units does boot from the B: drive (yes, the hyperion will boot from either drive). Anyone know the details of the floppy drive issues? (This is a well known problem with Hyperions - I just never paid attention to it) Anyone ever fixed a faulty Hyperion drive? Regards, Dave Btw: If anyone needs scans: I got a big load of Hyperion documenation with the machines, including the service manual and Technical Reference manual. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years, 6 months

1
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IMSAI 8080 available (Norway)

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

This just posted in comp.os.cpm: (oh WHY couldn't he have been in Canada!) ------------------------------------------- From: "Alf Jacob Munthe" <alfjacob(a)dcpost.no> Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm Subject: IMSAI 8080 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 14:18:56 +0200 Organization: PowerTech Information Systems AS Hi! I do have an IMSAI 8080 in very good condition, together with quite a few S-100 cards and of course original handbook and manuals for most of the cards. It is way too heavy to send, and costly, especially to US. But if anybody that reads this can pick it up here in southern Norway, I am willing to sell everything at a very good price. I am cleaning up my estate due to illness and age. Regards, Alf Jacob Munthe, LA6XF -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years, 6 months

1
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Made first phone call

by jos_dewaal＠hotmail.com

On 26/09/2004 Geoff Reed wrote: >>Well, you brought this discussion to the list. I was just amazed >>that nobody else commented on it. > >because many of us knew Don, and preserving his work is pretty much exactly >what he would have wanted. I just don't think you should bother a family with issues of this sort so short after someone's passing. Don's wife obviously didn't know anything about his efforts and might not appreciate someone advising her what to do with his collection at this moment. >and posting it to the list and getting yourself flamed here is any better? I don't see why I deserve to be flamed by anybody. Greetings, Jos _________________________________________________________________ Funk up your phone with our wide selection of content! http://ringtones.msn.co.za/

21 years, 6 months

1
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Made first phone call

by jos_dewaal＠hotmail.com

On 26/09/2004, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > What do others think of this ? > >Why do you find this to be a topic needing to be discussed publicly on the >list? I suggest you would have been better served if you wrote to me >directly about this. Instead, you've simply pointed out what an ass you >are. Well, you brought this discussion to the list. I was just amazed that nobody else commented on it. Besides, I doubt that I have the stomach to send you mail privately, judging from the archives you are not a very gentle person. Greetings, Jos _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest polyphonic ringtones at MSN Mobile Fun! http://ringtones.msn.co.za/

21 years, 6 months

2
1
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Zuse and stored-program

by tomj＠wps.com

http://www.epemag.com/zuse/part4a.htm Funny, one of the fore-mentioned URLS on the Z3 state that it wasn't stored-program, but there's also this tantalizing tidbit from the page: "Due to the fact that he wanted to calculate thousands of instructions in a meaningful order, he only used the memory to store values or numbers." I wish I could remember where I read that Zuse thought stored-program and self-modification of programs was, in effect, Wrong, not simply 'not a good technical idea'. The above quote is strange, it implies to me that if programs and data are in the same store, the resulting program would 'get out of order'. We know that of course this IS possible (bugs, self-mod ruins a program, etc) but somehow we've learned to carry on in spite of this horrible limitation. Even von Neumann originally thought self-mod a problem -- if you read the original (not later edits) of the EDVAC paper you'll see he specifies a bit of memory-content to differentiate data vs. program, to prevent programs from changing themselves. It was soon dropped though, I'd have to look up the dates, but by the time anything got built the data/prog bit was gone. JvN got a lot of cred for the 'stored program' concept but I can tell you from reading original materials (1938 - 1945) that it was a very well understood concept at the time (hell it's bloody obvious when you sit down to write up a design; memory is a huge stumble, and re-using your sole store cuts size in half at slight increase in complexity, no matter how insightful you were about what you were doing), he was the first to record it, maybe, but he didn't think it up. Note that he never claimed to have, either. In fact I'd go so far as to say that JvN didn't really get computing *at all*. He was a terrifyingly brilliant man, but he also was savvy enough to not persue areas in which he was not top-of-the-pile; he curtailed his involvement in computing pretty early. The data/prog mem bit thing is in here somewhere http://wps.com/projects/EDVAC/index.html but I don't feel like reading it all again. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that few people, even those BUILDING machines, really had any idea what they really were. Turing knew, and said so -- the ACE REPORT even states that electronic computers don't "do" arithmetic, they "simulate" it, that's good enough, it's all about manipulating symbols, not counting and arithmetic, yet look at the instruction sets of machines ACTUALLY BUILT; they SUCKED at symbol processing. Hell my LGP-21 barely has an AND instruction, no OR, no right-shift (except hardware divide). Look at all the EDVAC-thread machines that *got built*; look at Turing's ACE design vs. what got built in Pilot ACE (they took out all the logical instructions he designed in!) Hardware complexity is not the reason; the low-level logical stuff is the easiest to implement -- it's basically free, without carry an adder does OR, float augend in it does NOT, set carry+float augend it does INCREMENT, 2's-COMPLEMENT, etc etc. In fact, I asked a few of our grad students, programmers all (!) 'what a computer is' and/or 'what makes it unique' and even today, few either have the knowledge or perspective to know it's 'the machine that modifies itself'. Sheesh.

21 years, 6 months

1
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Made first phone call

by jos_dewaal＠hotmail.com

On 19/09/2004 Sellam Ismail wrote: >I made an initial phone call to Don's number and got an answering machine >(presumably Don's voice is still on the OGM). I chose not to leave a >message. I'll try again later today. Sellam, I'm shocked by your lack of tact and respect. No matter how important Don's collection might be in your eyes, you shouldn't lose sight of the fact that his wife and family have just lost him. They probably couldn't care less about what happens to his stuff in the garage at this point. I've asked my wife for her opinion on this and she said that she would instantly scrap and toss my stuff if she ever found herself in a similar situation. I can't blame her. What do others think of this ? Greetings, Jos _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest polyphonic ringtones at MSN Mobile Fun! http://ringtones.msn.co.za/

21 years, 6 months

3
2
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More Commodore PET drives - more help?

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

Hi Tony, >> It looks like the on-board CPU is not running at all. > >I would guess that's likely to be the case (although I've never worked on >this unit). > >In which case I'd start by checking the +5V power rail, then check the >CPU clock and reset pins (make sure the thing isn't held in the reset >state), then see what the aaddres and data lines are doing. All good advise - assuming that it's running (clocked), and the address/data bus looks ok (being driven, no signs of contention etc.), data being fetched >from the ROMs, I would probably next check the ROM content against the image on funet (I've seen a number of these ROMs go bad). Opened it up this morning - unfortunately, it is very badly corroded inside, and the drive unit itself shows a LOT of rust. Some of this equipment originally was rescued from a shed which we were told flooded with water every year - one casualty was a 2040 disk unit which has **VERY** badly corroded drives and plenty of rust all around the lower section of the case - we also have a B128 in which the edge connectors and any exposed sections of copper have gone green and fuzzy - not to mention all lables/stickers etc. have disintegrated - amazingly, after an initial cleaning of the worst of it, the machine still works! - one of my upcoming tasks will be to completely clean it up and restore it. I'm guessing this drive must have also been near the bottom of the pile. Board looks not too bad - power supplies check out, after cleaning and reseating all of the socketed chips and connections it still appears completely dead, so now its on to more serious debugging... Replaced ANOTHER 4116 DRAM in a CBM 2001-N last night - this makes 7 or 8 I've changed so far - symptoms are always the same - amount of memory "found" by BASIC differs, usually higher when the machine is cold, and lower if the machine is reset after it warms up (meaning the RAM gets worse after it has been on a while). Fortunately most of them have been able to run BASIC or at least the diagnostic monitor, and a little pokeing and peeking identifies the bit which is affected, allowing me to locate the exact chip without to much trouble. Have also replaced 4-5 2114s - I'm amazed that so many RAMs have gone bad in the Commodore equipment... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years, 6 months

3
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Anybody remember these?

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

I just received this manual: Science Fair SF-5000 ELECTRONIC COMPUTER by Rolf Lohberg PROGRAMMING MANUAL and Assembly Instructions Engineered For Science Fair Electronics - A Tandy Corporation Company Copyright 1971 by FRANCKH'SCHE VERLAGSHANDLUNG. KOSMOS Stuttgart, West Germany I had all but forgotten these things - in fact when they guy who gave it to me described it over the phone, I could not place it - but when I saw the picture on the cover I recognized it. This is the Radio Shack version of the Kosmos "Logikus". It is a small flat device with ten multi-position slider switches which move in and out of the front. At the back is a raised panel with ten lights which can illuminate various cards that you slide into the front of the panel. Along the top (in front of the panel) are many holes in which you insert wires to "program" the device. My making connections between the various switch elements and the lights, you can demonstrate fundamental logic concepts such as AND and OR. The manual includes a number of simple games and some basic mathmatical functions - it consists of 112 pages + covers. Aa timer permits, I will scan it an post it to my site. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years, 6 months

5
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Metrabyte PC6362

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

Anybody know what this is for? Roughly 6 x 8"square with LEDs for D0 through D7 and A0 through A5. Also LEDs for -15VDC, +15VDC and +5VDC. Six position DIP switch for setting the board address. Only connector is a 50 pin ribbon cable header. Keithly sells Metrabyte but neither Kiethly or Metrabyte will give you any information. Good companies NOT to do business with IMO. Joe

21 years, 6 months

2
1
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compaq slt 286

by monikadonald＠v21.me.uk

Hi, I've just been given a compaq slt/286, knowing nothing about them, I seached the net for info and found yourself, do you still have guide and manual? If so it'd be a great help, (nice to put the two things back together as mine is in original carry case) If you've still got it, or can even give me any info/advice about it, email me at monikadonald(a)v21.me.uk yours hopefully, Donald Jarvie.

21 years, 6 months

1
0
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RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion

by aek＠spies.com

Best rule for SIMH or E11 purposes is NOT to mix "RM" and "RP" drives on a single RH11/RH70. -- There was some discussion/questions from Bob Supnik about this on the simh developers list this week if mixed drives were or were not supported on the PDP11 operating systems. It sounded like they were not, so I'm surprised that they may have been on V9 and earlier. The problem comes about because the RM and RP massbus controllers have slightly different register sets.

21 years, 6 months

4
7
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LGP-21 Hardware Maintenance and Training Manual

by tomj＠wps.com

The complete thing is scanned and indexed (minimally) at wps.com/projects/LGP-21/Documentation/LGP-21-Maintenance-Training-Manual/ I'm not completely happy with the index, but URLs etc won't change when I fix it. It's not entirely obvious that to see page 6-36, not in the index, for instance, that you can get there by clicking NEXT PAGE on page 6-35. No matter, the scanning is done other than to fix a few crooked pages. If anyone wants a copy send me SASE that'll hold a CD-R and I'll save you the trouble of downloading.

21 years, 6 months

1
0
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11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo

by aek＠spies.com

Could someone please take a closeup photo of the DEC/PDP logo on their 11/03 or 11/23 and send it to me? Or point me to a site which have it? I need to match the paint for the logo restoration. -- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5124508154 the logo is a sticker on the 11/23's

21 years, 6 months

2
2
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Ampex test card

by kenziem＠sympatico.ca

Cleaning in the basement I came across a card with the following text ampex write amplifier test card 61145-03 d9756-461 the pins there are 10 leads a gap then 4 more 3.25" x 7.75" Any idea what system this goes with? -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG backplane Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca

21 years, 6 months

2
1
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HP test board?

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

Something else that I found this morning. A circuit board about 3 x 5" square with four toggle switches and a push button switch. The toggle switches are labeled Freq (0,1), WREN (off,on), Hold (off,on) and DRCT (out,in). The pushbutton is labeled Step and next to it is a LED labeled TRK 00. On the other end of the board is long wire with a E-Z hook on the end of it. Next to where the wire is connected it says Connect to A5 TP9. The part number on the board is 98015-66501. On the back of the board is DE-37F connector. There are no other connectors or power jacks so apparently it gets it's power from the DUT. I'm guessing that it's used for testing some kind of HP disk drive. I think the HP 9885 disk drive uses the DD-37 connectors so I think it might be for that. Anyone know any more about it? Joe

21 years, 6 months

3
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WANTED ($$$): PRO/VENIX (or VENIX/PRO ;-)

by waltje＠pdp11.nl

Hi, If anyone has an original copy of the above (either one; I believe the first one is VenturCom's naming, and the latter is DEC's naming) and could be persuaded to part with it for a reasonable price, pse contact me off-list ! Thanks, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje(a)pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA

21 years, 6 months

1
0
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More Commodore PET drives - more help?

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

Hi Guys, Still slogging away at our big pile of Commodore PET equipment. (Having a pretty good success rate so far - thank god for funet!) Todays's victims are: 1) Commodore SFD-1001 This is the IEEE-488 (PET) single-drive that looks very much like a VIC/C64 1541 serial drive. The drive powers on, and both the POWER and drive LED come on solid RED and stay that way - no other activity is observed - it doesn't matter if the IEEE bus is connected or not, and resetting the IEEE bus (via PET power-on) has no effect. If the PET tries to access the IEEE bus, it hangs, presumably waiting for an acknowlege that never comes (?) It looks like the on-board CPU is not running at all. I found some schematics on funet, however I have no experience with this particular drive at all - anyone have any tips or pointers? Any known common faults with these symptoms? 2) This is an MSD-SD2, a third party "clone" of the Commodore 2040/4040 drive (Yeah, I know it's not an exact clone as the internals are different, but it reads/writes 4040 disk format). This drive powers on and repeatedly flashed an error code consisting of seven (7) flashes of all three LED's (POWER, Drive1, Drive2). I can find no service information on this drive at all. Looking for: - Info on what the error code means. - Schematics - Any other service info/tips. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years, 6 months

2
1
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Computer museum for sale

by Pres＠macro-inc.com

Wasn't this place mentioned the other day? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5125710949… Ed K.

21 years, 6 months

5
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I don't believe it!!! Jeanne

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

Damm! We took a direct hit with hurricane Charlie. Then a NEAR miss with hurricane Frances. (It took 4 1/2 > DAYS < to pass through!) Then another narrow miss with hurricane Ivan. I just looked at the weather forecast and now there's another one headed this way! Hurricane Jeanne is expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. Is somebody trying to tell us something? Joe

21 years, 6 months

14
23
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Relay computers

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

>From: "Tom Jennings" <tomj(a)wps.com> > >On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 07:39, Ade Vickers wrote: > >> If each relay needs, say, 25mA @ 6v to operate, then the peak current >> draw >> of our R80 (as I shall call it) could be around 600A (I think). And >> that's >> before we've added memory, i/o, etc. > >Last things first :-) the place to look for this is telco. They did >really for real. Most of them are 48V; it lowers current plus higher >voltages help with the inductive time constant thing (take a look at how >teletype loops are done; HV, a series resistor shortens the *effective* >time constant (eg. the time to reach 60mA in the tty case). > > Hi Increasing the resistance doesn't change the power needed to pull in the armature, all it does is decrease the time constant for a particular inductance. Higher voltages require more resistance in the wire, meaning more turns. The pulling effect on the armature is just ampere-turns. Using more resistance just means higher voltage. E^2. One can do the same thing by adding a resistor in series with the 6V coil and using a higher drive voltage. Power wise, it is a loss. You still need the effective 25mA in the coil. Dwight Dwight

21 years, 6 months

1
0
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The DFWCUG Historical CPU Preservation Society

by emu＠ecubics.com

Who is the maintainer of this ? Only the main webpage works, everything else is timeouts ...

21 years, 6 months

2
1
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Another HP 9915, Wahoo!

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

I went scrounging a couple of days ago and one of the things that I found was a HP 19" rack mount unit called a HP 5181A Display/Tape Storage Unit. I grabbed it without looking too losely. Today I checked it and found that the RH side of the unit is a HP 9915A computer! The LH side is a HP 1332 X-Y CRT display. No idea what the whole unit is for. Anyone know? I couldn't find anything on the net about it. Joe

21 years, 6 months

1
0
0 0

Decimal V Binary??

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Sep 23 2004, 14:22, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Pete" == Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> writes: > The PDP11 architecture handbook says CIS was an option on the > Micro/PDP-11, the 11/23-plus, the 11/24, and the 11/44. (Hm, I had > forgotten about the 11/44...) Micro/PDP-11 seems like another name > for 11/23. But elsewhere (in the intro) it also shows the LSI11/2 as > a machine with CIS option. That's the 11/03, I believe. Yes, the MicroPDP-11 was a specifc range of models of 11/23, 11/73, et seq in BA23 and BA123 cabinets. The most common 11/03 was an LSI-11/2. The term LSI-11 refers to either the original set of boards including the M7264 which could be used to build a system, or more specifically to the M7264 KD11-F processor card. A PDP-11/03 is, strictly speaking, a DEC-packaged system, the early ones being an BA11-M box, or an 11V03 system in a BA11-N and with RX01 drives. LSI-11/2 is the later processor card, used in BA11-N boxes to make some 11V03 and 11T03 (with RL01 drives) systems. The reason I asked my question is just that I've never seen or heard of a CIS option for the 11/03, and I can't think where you'd put it. There are no spare sockets on the board and not nearly enough of the internal bus is brought out. Well, there's a spare socket on a basic M7264 (the original quad board) and on a basic M7270 (the later and more common LSI-11/2 dual-height board), but they're for the KEV11 (EIS/FIS) option. Most of the 11/03 processors I've seen have the KEV11 already fitted. It's also possible to add a Writable Control Store (KUV11) to an 11/03 (M7264) and that can hold user-defined microcode or a version of the EIS/FIS. AFAIK that only works with an LSI-11 (M7264), not an LSI-11/2, and anyway it's a quad-height board, not a MICROM chip (it has a cable that plugs into the socket usually occupied by the KEV11). I have both the DIGITAL Microcomputer Handbook (1976) that was released with the LSI-11 series, and the later Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982) which describe the 11/03, and neither mentions CIS, except for the 11/23-plus (in the 1982 handbook). The 1976 Handbook describes all the instructions, including the EIS and FIS, but not CIS. It also describes or lists various languages but not COBOL or DIBOL (which would have been its raison d'etre). I've also been told (by someone on the list) that the 11/03 processors don't have enough microcode address space for CIS, and that fits with what I know: CIS is BIG -- bigger than the all rest of the instruction set put together, including the floating point additions, on an 11/23. So, whilst willing to believe that CIS exists for an 11/03 if someone has it, I think something else is much more likely :-) Of course, if it does exist, I'd be very interested to know more about it! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

21 years, 6 months

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archiving as opposed to backing up

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

>From: "Ed Kelleher" <Pres(a)macro-inc.com> > >At 05:49 PM 9/23/2004, you wrote: >> > >> Once I was given a set of coordinates by Ted, who has been mentioned >> > >> before in this book. Ted is a rabid UFO fanatic, and liked to sneak >>UFO >> > >> targets into our tasking now and then. This was forbidden, but he >> > >> sometimes did it anyway. I thought that the target on this particular >> > >> day was an operational target and was not expecting an ET target. >> > >> >> > >*cough*hooey!*cough* >> > > >> > >g. >> > > >> > >> > Thank you Gene. My sentiments exactly. >> > Dwight >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>I am glad I wasn't the only one wondering what Sokolov was smoking when he >>wrote that quote. > >I don't know. It could have happened that way. > > > >Ed K. > >:-) > > It could have been a giant elephant sneeze but that is highly unlikely as well. It has all of the marks of a object that was loosely held together that was traveling at very high speed ( not orbital speeds ) that completely disintegrated in the atmosphere. That would best fit a small comet like object. The areas effected correlate well with just such an object. Thye do not correlate with something that blew up with some internal power source. The results of the damage do correlate with an object having a large kinetic energy, transferred to a shock wave in the atmosphere. Why do we have to find the most unlikely explanation for it when the likely one fits so well? Dwight

21 years, 6 months

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Relay computers

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

>From: "Ade Vickers" <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com> > >At 22:50 23/09/2004, you wrote: > >>On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 11:17 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > >> > > Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite possibly the >> > > coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though: >> > > >> > > http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html >> > >> > Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF. >> > >> > The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design >> > work. >> >>Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't know >>any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control >>system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to >>them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams. > >I did some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations (i.e. they might be completely >& utterly wrong, in which case I'd appreciate corrections) on a relay >computer... > >Assume you want a Z80-type CPU. This has ~8k gates. Typically, it seems to >take 1 relay per input to implement any given gate. Now, I don't know how >many "x-input" gates there are in a Z80, so I'll assume that - on average - >it will require 3 relays/gate. Thus, we need ~24,000 relays to implement >the Z80. > >If each relay needs, say, 25mA @ 6v to operate, then the peak current draw >of our R80 (as I shall call it) could be around 600A (I think). And that's >before we've added memory, i/o, etc. > >As for the heat/noise - well, IMHO it's worth building it just to >experience that! Mind you, you'll need a lot of room: If you use 30mm by >13mm relays, then the board space you need is at least 9.36 square >metres... Still, if you assume that each board needs approx 40mm of space >incl. airflow room, then you should be able to fit the R80 into 2 400mm by >400mm by 2000mm cabinets (internal w/d/h)... > >The relays I've been looking at typically quote around 25ms to operate >(either way), so I don't see how you could clock the R80 at anything faster >than around 40Hz; and you'd probably want to drop to 20Hz to be on the safe >side. The same relays quote a typical lifetime of 10e7 operations; so at >20Hz, your R80 should last a little under 139 continuous hours of operation >before relays started failing... > >Creating a screen driver should be interesting.... > >Question: Wouldn't it be easier to implement an OR gate with no relays at >all (just two wires joining together)? Or would you need to use the relays >to keep the output voltage/amperage regulated? > >Additional: Hunting around for a suitable CPU to implement in relays, I >came across the P8 CPU design (http://www.rexfisher.com/P8/P8_TOC.htm). >This uses a 74LS181 4-bit ALU, which I reckon would require 149 relays to >replicate. The only thing that confuzzles me is: what use, exactly, is a >1-input AND? Several of these appear on the 74LS181 schematic... > > >Cheers, >Ade. Hi Ade I think your counts are way off. As I recall, I did a schematic a while back for a single bit of an alu and it only took about 4 or 5 relays. I did use DC and diodes for steering. The only thing you need a relay for is to invert. All AND and OR functions can be done with the contacts of the relays. Even the diodes are not needed if you have enough contacts. The life time of the relays are for maximum current conditions. A relay computer would not be running quite to that level. Also, relay coils can run at lower currents and voltage once pulled in. The clocking circuits can be built to provide a pulse of high voltage to pull the relays in and then a reduced holding current to maintain. I still consider building a relay computer as a practical project but like Karl Zuse, I think that memory is still the biggest issue. Unlike normal silicon, single relays can be used to buffer both inverting or non-inverting. This means that a single relay can be used as a storage element. Silicon requires the use of two inverters for a static memory. I've thought about an array of reed switches for memory with bias magnets. These would be adjusted such that there would be just enough magentic field to hold the reed closed once closed but not enough to cause it to close by itself. The coils would then be used to open and close by applying a counter or aiding field to the reed/magnet. The magents would be arrange with alternating directions such that there was no accumulating of the magentic field across the array of the reed RAM. ROM can be done with and array of diodes and switches. I'd keep the ALU simple since most times, it doesn't need to do arithmatic. A single bit ALU with a few serial storage shift registers would be sufficient for most math operations. Dwight

21 years, 6 months

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Relay computers

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Sep 24 2004, 15:39, Ade Vickers wrote: > > Additional: Hunting around for a suitable CPU to implement in relays, I > came across the P8 CPU design (http://www.rexfisher.com/P8/P8_TOC.htm). > This uses a 74LS181 4-bit ALU, which I reckon would require 149 relays to > replicate. The only thing that confuzzles me is: what use, exactly, is a > 1-input AND? Several of these appear on the 74LS181 schematic... I've not seen the specific diagram you're referring to, but are you sure they're not NAND gates? There are a few in the diagram I have. A 1-input NAND is of course an inverter. But otherwise, a 1-input gate could be used as a buffer (there are some inverters on the LS181 inputs for that reason) or to equalise the gate delays along some particular path to match another. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

21 years, 6 months

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Electromechanical Pong

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Sep 24 2004, 7:27, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Is the Museum of Automata still open in York (England)? > Fascinating place that had all sorts of mechanical marvels like this. > I remember an archer that would pull an arrow out of his quiver, shoot it > at a target, then retrieve the arrow and shoot again - all mechanical. > Amazing stuff. Claude's Museum of Automata - no. Sadly, it closed after suffering storm damage some years ago. It was up for sale for a while, but there didn't seem to be any takers. I don't know what eventually happened to the contents, but that's why you won't see it on the web :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

21 years, 6 months

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Computer museum for sale

by marvin＠rain.org

ACP is a rather well known entity among computer people here in So. California having sponsored the ACP swapmeet for many years. As such, I rather doubt this is a joke. When I was there last year, they had some interesting and some common computers on display. I gather that this display was a small fraction of what they had, and as such, the starting price does not seem that bad assuming that there is a fair amount of "good stuff" that hasn't been mentioned in the ad. A quick glance at the web site (http://www.thepcmuseum.net/) didn't show much in the way of what I would term expensive stuff though. And of course, the reserve price may be a bit high, but no way of knowing that! > From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk(a)yahoo.co.uk> > > On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 08:02 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > > Wasn't this place mentioned the other day? > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5125710949… > > > > Ed K. > > That is a joke, right? >

21 years, 6 months

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Electromechanical Pong

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Sep 24 2004, 10:57, Jules Richardson wrote: > Whether bevel gears could be made out of wood is another matter! Nah, they're easy -- that's what disk-and-peg gears are. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

21 years, 6 months

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OT(ish): modern UI design concepts

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

OK, you lot get my whinge for today :-) Does anyone else find that modern UIs with lots of pretty grahpics are actually getting harder to use? I'm not sure if it's just me or not! Having not used a recent Mac I can't comment there, but Windows and the more popular of the Linux desktop environments seem to be suffering the same fate in the last few years (and apps for both OS's): Clear and simple icons and buttons have been replaced with complex images (and the icons and buttons seem to have grown larger, taking up more screen space) Simple window borders have given way to windows with rounded corners, or complex colour fades and other things in the title bars. Backgrounds to UI components often seem to be images these days rather than plain colour. Colours seem to be chosen without any thought these days (as a contrived example, blue buttons with a slightly darker shade blue background panel) I just wonder if I'm alone in finding modern UI's cluttered with unnecessary visual features which distract the user from the task they're doing, presumably waste CPU and memory resources, and don't actually serve to make the OS/application any easier to use? Thoughts welcome - personally just because CPU power and memory is cheap I don't think it justifies making a user interface harder to use! In the case of interfaces where look is configurable, at least app vendors could choose the one that makes the product easier to use rather than the one filled with the most graphics... Anyway, rant over. Thankyou for tuning in :-) cheers, Jules

21 years, 6 months

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You might be a Floridian if WARNING: OT

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

You might be a Floridian if: You exhibit a slight twitch when introduced to anyone named Bonnie, Charley, Frances, Ivan, Jeanne, or Karl. Your freezer never has more than $20 worth of food in it any given time You're looking at paint swatches for the plywood on your windows, to accent the house color. You think of your hall closet/saferoom as "cozy". Your pool is more accurately described as "framed in" than "screened in". Your freezer in the garage now only has homemade ice in it. You no longer worry about relatives visiting during the summer months. You, too, haven't heard back from the insurance adjuster. You now understand what that little "2% hurricane deductible" phrase really means. You're putting a collage together on your driveway of roof shingles from your neighborhood. You were once proud of your 16" electric chain saw. Your "Stop Sign" on your street is replaced with a "NO WAKE" sign. You now own 5 large ice chests. Your parrot can now say" hammered, pounded and hunker down". You recognize the same people in line at the free ice, gas and plywood locations. You clap and wave when you see a power truck, cable truck or telephone service truck come down your street. You stop clapping when they don't stop. You have Home Depot and Lowes in your cellular phonebook. You've spent more than $20 on "Tall white kitchen bags" to make your own sand bags. You're considering upgrading your 16" chainsaw to a 20". You know what "Bar chain oil" is. You're thinking of getting your wife the hardhat with the ear protector and face shield for Christmas. You now think that a $6000 whole house generator seems reasonable. You look forward to family discussions about the merits of "cubed, block and dry ice". Your therapist refers to your condition as "generator envy". You fight the urge to put on your winter coat and wool cap and parade around in front of your picture window, when you finally get power and your neighbor across the street, with the noisy generator, doesn't get electric. And finally, you might be a Floridian if: You ask your sister up north to start saving the Sunday Real Estate classifieds!

21 years, 6 months

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HP 10342B Bus Preprocessor software

by richard＠girling.net

Hi Glen Not sure if you can help, but came across a post on Classiccmp referring to files for the HP 10342B Bus predecessor. I am looking for these files , can you help? Many Thanks Richard

21 years, 6 months

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archiving as opposed to backing up

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

>From: "Gene Buckle" <geneb(a)deltasoft.com> > >On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > >> Teo Zenios <teoz(a)neo.rr.com> wrote: >> >> > Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska >> > explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a >> > nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation). >> >> This is not what happened. Lyn Buchanan, a very good remote viewer >> whom I know fairly well, has told the real story in his book The Seventh >> Sense: >> >> -- quote from the book: -- >> >> Once I was given a set of coordinates by Ted, who has been mentioned >> before in this book. Ted is a rabid UFO fanatic, and liked to sneak UFO >> targets into our tasking now and then. This was forbidden, but he >> sometimes did it anyway. I thought that the target on this particular >> day was an operational target and was not expecting an ET target. >> >*cough*hooey!*cough* > >g. > Thank you Gene. My sentiments exactly. Dwight

21 years, 6 months

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Electromechanical Pong

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Sep 23 2004, 21:50, Jules Richardson wrote: > I was just thinking that it would be an interesting challenge to build a > fully mechanical version - no electrical parts whatsoever. Steam-powered > pong, that'd be different... "Babbage Pong", maybe... :-) OK, but you have to use proper graphited yarn instead of PTFE and O-rings. Or use compressed air - you can buy the gates off the shelf if you're rich enough. > And given the light loading involved, why not use wooden gearing instead > of metal: "Organic Pong"... Ow! If you'd ever tried to build wooden gears that don't self-strip... Of course, you could go the whole hog and use disks with pegs in them, and a water wheel to power it, but you'd be in for a surprise when you find out how much energy it takes to turn such constructions :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

21 years, 6 months

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Decimal V Binary??

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Sep 23 2004, 21:16, Doc Shipley wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > The term LSI-11 refers to either the original set of boards including > > the M7264 which could be used to build a system, or more specifically > > to the M7264 KD11-F processor card. A PDP-11/03 is, strictly speaking, > > a DEC-packaged system, the early ones being an BA11-M box, or an 11V03 > > system in a BA11-N and with RX01 drives. > Errr, my 11v03 has RX02s, thank you. Although it's very possible > they're an upgrade. Maybe, but they could be original. I only meant the early ones had RX01s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

21 years, 6 months

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WYSE computer setup disks

by wpileggi＠juno.com

I have a copy of the "WYSE 286" setup disk. At least that's how I marked it. 5 1/4 floppy - should still be good. ANybody want it? I liked those WYSE pizza boxes, they were pretty neat. Had 1 in service until 1995 or 96. Bill ________________________________________________________________ Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today!

21 years, 6 months

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IBM PC/XT/AT, etc. material for sale/give-away/etc.

by wpileggi＠juno.com

Sadly, lost storage area(s) and forced to sell off PC related collection late spring. Thankfully went to appreciative guys around the world. Now finishing up, have a few items left of possible interest: IBM PC mfr. Early 1982, 2nd BIOS ver. BLACK power supply, all original. Manual. IBM XT mfr. January, 1984 (64-256). CGA/MONO/Floppy/20MB HDD/AST/640KB. Manual. IBM PC "B", mfr. May 1985. Case/Mobo/Power supply. Can stick in cards from list below. IBM CGA monitor, good. IBM Mono. monitor, decent/for test purposes. 2 83 key keyboards. Misc. Display Cards for PC/XT/AT - Paradise, Hercules, IBM. CGA to composite video breakout connector. Some other misc cards, drives. 2 IBM half-height 360Kb floppy drives in stack, as seen in late XT's. IBM PC DOS 2.1. IBM PC DOS 3.3 (multiple media formats AND versions). IBM BASIC 3.0 Reference manual with slipcase. IBM Service Information Manual. 3rd Edition, November, 1987. Very Cool. NORTON UTILITIES 6.01 (1992). Full boxed edition. NO floppy disks. DESQVIEW 386. Full boxed edition. 2 copies. +Additional Reference material. Hardware Maintenance and Service - (IBM) Proprinter X24E and Proprinter XL24E. Guide to Operations - Personal Computer - AT. (IBM) Technical Reference - Personal Computer - AT. (IBM) Binder/slipcase only. IBM clear vinyl floppy holder pages for manuals - IBM logo'd. A big thick handful of 5 1/4 inch floppies with misc. software/copies. Some NOS. Any interest - Please contact off list for details, photos. Insulting offers considered, rebuttals possibly offered. Conditions usually VG or better, and always working. Have experience and material to ship worldwide if so desired. Books can go media rate. My zip is 19001. Fedex usually cheapest for heavy/long distances. Bill ________________________________________________________________ Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today!

21 years, 6 months

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Decimal V Binary??

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Sep 23 2004, 7:37, Doc Shipley wrote: > The dual-height 11/03 processor allows a CIS as well. I have a > couple that have that chip. As far as I can determine, both those > machines were used to sort, analyse, and archive incoming raw data. I've never seen one of those. What's it like? Are you sure you're not thinking of the EIS/FIS chip? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

21 years, 6 months

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OSI info pages

by aek＠spies.com

http://my.execpc.com/~mspankus/osi/osi.html#Links is a good place to start.

21 years, 6 months

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PeeCee Text

by aw288＠osfn.org

In the old days of the XT and CGA, what text modes were supported? I have a Wyse PC+ - an oddball XT class machine - that could run DOS in several weird text modes (96 and 132 column, I think). I remember using it this way for some stuff, but often certain programs would barf (Norton Commander being one of them). Were these modes standard? I still have the PC+, and I doubt I will ever get rid of it for some reason. It is a pretty weird machine, and I don't think many were made. William Donzelli aw288(a)osfn.org

21 years, 6 months

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