- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On 26/07/2010 19:22, J.G.Harston wrote: > Rick Murray wrote: >>> ".bbc" - Russell format >>> ".bas" - Text >>> "." - Acorn format >> No, very *BAD* to use *.bas - double click on those, I'll have the fun >> of watching Visual Basic trying to load a tokenised BASIC code. :-) "Well, don't do that, then," said the helpdesk techie. > .bas is the standard extension for textual representation of BASIC (*any* > BASIC) code. If some application decide to stupidly associate themselves > with it and try to execute it, that's their stupid fault. I'm with Jonathan. .bas is the accepted extension for all sorts of BASIC files, and using something else is only going to cause confusion elsewhere. Double-clicking is supposed to "run" a file or cause it to be executed; if the only BASIC interpreter you have is the VB executable and it tries to load the file you double-clicked, well that's because the doubler-clicker was daft enough to do an inappropriate thing :-) The appropriate thing, if you want to edit a file, would be to right-click and select "open with" -- assuming we're talking about a Windows OS. Or use whatever weird combination of key and mouse performs "open" rather than "run". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

15 years, 11 months

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Fwd: [alt.sys.pdp11] VHDL implemenentation of a PDP-11/70 available on Open

by legalize＠xmission.com

This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 21:12:41 +0200 Groups: alt.sys.pdp11 From: "Walter F. J. Mueller" <w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de> Org: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Subject: VHDL implemenentation of a PDP-11/70 available on OpenCores Id: <i2kmn9$vhj$1 at lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> ======== A VHDL implementation of a PDP-11/70 with MMU but without FPP, and a basic set of UNIBUS peripherals is available under GPL on OpenCores, see http://opencores.org/project,w11 The core is FPGA proven, boots UNIX 5th edition and 2.11BSD Unix. The I/O sub-system is emulated via a backend server which currently communicates via a serial port with the FPGA board. Walter

15 years, 11 months

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Help with international shipping

by pontus＠update.uu.se

Hi There is a DEC manual the size of VMS manual ring binder for sale on Ebay. I would really like to have it! The seller wont ship internationally, but I'm in Sweden. Would anyone like to be my proxy? I'll bid and pay the seller but I need someone to receive it in United States and ship it to me. Obviously I'll pay for shipping to Sweden and a bit extra for the trouble. Please contact me offlist. Kind Regards, Pontus.

15 years, 11 months

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Micro-Systems magazines for free

by tosteve＠yahoo.com

For the cost of shipping: S-100 "Micro Systems" magazines Issues 1/1 (Jan 80) through 3/4 (Jul 82). Issue 1/3 is missing. I am in southern California 92656

15 years, 11 months

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Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston

by tshoppa＠wmata.com

I think (bigger than 50% chance) that I recognize the seller and the origin of the machines, and I think it's very likely that some of the machines have some specialized communications hardware that was for some period very hard to get at and may even still be worth considerable $ to those in need of it, if the cab kit and remote mux distribution panel is present. But to anyone outside that industry it's very unlikely the board itself would be considered wanted at all, and I think it's 99% likely that the seller is not including the remote mux distribution panel, it often gets trashed in the "decommisioning". It's a little sad to see machines "parted out" in a way that separates the Unibus backplane board from the part of the peripheral that's actually needed in industry, but this "parting out" phenomenon is so widespread on E-bay and those who do it tell me that it's the only way to make money. So PDP-11's get chopped off the actually interesting and valuable system they control, and as a result neither end is desirable by itself.

15 years, 11 months

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Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston

by mdavidson1963＠gmail.com

Yeah, and in the description he says: Any offers below $450 for single systems will be rejected. Nice. On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > If I read that right, that's $550 per system. > > Zane > > > > At 11:23 AM -0400 7/25/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >> Someone should try to snap these up: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140431577078 >> >> I doubt scrap value is over (or even near) $50/each, so maybe you can >> deal with the guy if you're willing to pick them up. > > -- > | Zane H. Healy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| OpenVMS Enthusiast ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| Photographer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? My flickr Photostream ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ?http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ ? ? ? ? ? | >

15 years, 11 months

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RTEM-11

by bqt＠softjar.se

"Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> >> My reference to a specific "feature" is with respect to the actual >>> >> details of >>> >> the RTS in question. For RSTS/E, the RTS to handle RT-11 EMT requests >>> >> does not support even all of the RT-11 EMT requests which the RT11SJ >>> >> monitor in RT-11 supports. For example, the .CStatus request is ignored >>> >> and the .SaveStatus request return the "dev:filnam.typ" and [PPN] for >>> >> the >>> >> file in question rather than the five Channel Status words used in an >>> >> RT-11 >>> >> environment. So there are significant differences between the RT-11 RTS >>> >> under RSTS/E and an actual RT11SJ monitor running under a PDP-11 >>> >> instruction set (specified so as to include both a DEC CPU and an >>> >> emulator >>> >> such as SIMH). >> > >> > Yes. And RTEM-11 will also behave slightly differently that vanilla >> > RT-11 for some of those calls. And assuming there is a product called >> > RTEM, which runs under VMS, it too will behave differently than RT-11. >> > However, RTEM-11 and this RTEM will not necessarily behave the same >> > way, since RTEM-11 and RTEM are different products, and different >> > implementations, written by different people (assumingly) at different >> > times. > > Agreed! The problem is that I have been unable to locate any > documentation for which RT-11 EMT requests are handled by > the RTEM-11 RTS along with the differences between RT-11 > and the RTEM-11 RTS. *sigh* Still not an RTS... RTEM-11 is a program, not an RTS. There is no RTS concept in RSX. > The RSTS/E RTS system for RT-11 EMT requests is fairly well > documented in the RSTS/E documentation. The only areas which > are a bit hazy is when the [PPN] (at offset zero in the Common > Area) is not specified (left at zero). If the [PPN] is included, then > it is used correctly along with the file name that is specified. > > But for RTEM-11, I don't have any documentation at all. The obvious answer is that this is documented in the manual that came with RTEM-11. Now, you just need to find someone who has it... (not me) >> > RTEM-11 is not an RTS. RTEM-11 is a product that ran (runs) under RSX. >> > If I were to make a qualified guess, I'd suspect that RTEM-11 is a >> > program that you start just like any other program under RSX. That >> > program then looks like an RT-11 environment, so you can run RT-11 >> > programs inside that. >> > RTEM-11 will catch EMTs and other traps, and do something appropriate >> > to those traps. It's not difficult to catch traps in an RSX program. >> > Exactly what it does, and how, is another issue. And that is something >> > you are asking about, and which I cannot answer, and it seems noone >> > else can either, since noone around here have RTEM-11, or have used >> > it. As I said, I think Megan mentioned that she had used it, but she's >> > the only one I know of who have admitted to any knowledge about this >> > product. > > I suspect that Megan is no longer available for help. I have not seen or heard from her for a long time. You know anything? >>> >> On the >>> >> other hand, I doubt that anyone will be likely to even test the >>> >> RTEM-11 handling >>> >> portion of the code, so I am probably going to just assume that what >>> >> works for the >>> >> RT-11 RTS system under RSTS/E will also suffice for the RTEM-11 RTS >>> >> under >>> >> RSX-11. >> > >> > Not an RTS, but anyway, you are most probably very correct in the >> > assumption that no one will test you code under RTEM-11. > > That should make the situation fairly simple. I will ask anyone who > actually > does run under RTEM-11 to contact me if it does not work. Since I will > be 72 years old in a few days, and I doubt that the code will be finished > very soon, they won't have many years to check in. Do that. I very much doubt you'll get any response though. >>> >> That is what I had assumed, however, I am curious how RSTS/E decides >>> >> which RTS to use - or none at all as the case might be. >> > >> > Are you not reading what I am writing? >> > This is an attribute of the file. You *tell* which RTS a program >> > should run under. Normally you do not need to do this explicitly, >> > since every file always have an RTS associated with it, and it's >> > normally already correct, so no need to change it. > > I have access to both V7 and V10.1 or RSTS/E. However, I have not found the > program in V10.1 which copies files from RT-11 files structures to > RSTS/E file > structures. And this has just about nothing to do with the question on how RSTS/E determines which RTS a program runs under, but anyway... As I've said before, I know about FIT. If DEC replaced FIT with something else in RSTS/E V10, then you just have to search around in the system. Look at the help files. That's usually a good place to start searching. Read the manuals. I think the V10 manuals are online somewhere as well. I don't have any better answer off my head, and I am not going to install RSTS/E to figure this out for you. You can do the work yourself. It shouldn't be hard. But by now it should be obvious that no one around here is offering the answer so you'll have to figure it out yourself. > Under V7, RSTS/E has a program named FIT which I use to copy > a program from an RX02 device to an RL02 device. Based on your description, > FIT must attach the RT-11 attribute to the file during the copy. Yes, it's a fairly good assumption that FIT will create all copied files >from an RT-11 formatted disk on the RSTS/E system assigned to the RT11 RTS. Assigning any other RTS to the files would probably be a mistake, since the files most probably are coming from an RT11 system. > It would be appreciated if you could confirm that I finally have it > correct. If you mean the guess that FIT would copy the files and assign them to the RT11 RTS, then yes. That is most likely correct. It might even be that FIT is an RT11 program itself as well... >>> >> Well, I am having difficulty finding the "new" program under V10.1 of >>> >> RSTS/E. >>> >> I finally managed to figure out how to MOUNT the RL02 drives I am >>> >> "using" >>> >> (don't forget that all the code is being run under SIMH or E11) under >>> >> V7 of >>> >> RSTS/E when I am running V10.1 of RSTS/E. Since FIT had already copied >>> >> to file to the RL02 drives, I could then used PIP to copy the program >>> >> in I am >>> >> testing to the correct [PPN] on the DU0: drive which is being "used" >>> >> to run >>> >> V10.1 of RSTS/E. A bit inconvenient, but fortunately faster than on >>> >> a DEC >>> >> system. >> > >> > That sentence makes no sense. Either you are running RSTS/E V7, or >> > RSTS/E V10, you cannot run RSTS/E V10 when you are running RSTS/E V7, >> > or vice versa. You'll have to reboot the machine in order to run >> > another version of RSTS/E. > > AGREED!! When I tested the program under V10.1 of RSTS/E, the only > way I managed to copy the program after booting V10.1 of RSTS/E on the > DU0: device was to MOUNTed the RL02 device which had the program I > wanted to test. The RL02 device had previously been booted to V7 of RSTS/E > and FIT had been used to copy the program from the RX02 device to the RL02 > device. > > So YES, two boots were required, the first to copy the program from the RX02 > device (with an RT-11 file structure) to the RL02 with a RSTS/E file > structure > using FIT under V7 of RSTS/E. Then I SHUTUP V7 of RSTS/E, booted the > DU0: device which has V10.1 of RSTS/E, MOUNTed the RL02 and copied > the program from the RL02 to the DU0: device. Since this will not be done > except for testing, it is acceptable. Aha. So what you actually are saying is that you booted RSTS/E V7, copied the files from an RT11 formatted disk into the RSTS/E system. You then booted RSTS/E V10, and accessed the files previously copied. Yes, that would work just fine. >> > With ODT linked in to the program, just as you mentioned that people >> > normally did with RT11 in the past as well. >> > >> > The same type of development cycle is still what people use to this >> > day. You build a special debug version, which you run through the >> > debugger, and when you are happy, you build a new, leaner version, >> > without debug support. > > I agree that this was also done in the past with RT-11. And is still done to this day in RSTS/E and RSX. And while exactly the same, something similar is done in Unix systems, Windows systems, VMS systems, and any other system I can think of. The reason being that for debugging you don't want a compiler to optimize things, and you want to include symbol tables in the compiled image for debugging purposes, while you do not want that stuff for the finished program, since it takes space and makes the program slower (symbol table and non-optimization). Modern systems however, usually allows the debugger to be dynamically attached to a running program so you don't have to include that bit already at the link stage. >> > I'm not sure how you use that device driver under RT11, nor how useful >> > it actually is... > > However, by V05.04 of RT-11, DEC developed the SD(X).SYS device > driver which allowed a program to have a BPT instruction without the > requirement to include ODT as part of the code. If the user LOADed > SDX.SYS prior to executing the program with the BPT, but without > ODT included, the code in SDX.SYS initialized the required VECTOR > to trap the BPT instruction when SDX.SYS was LOADed. The code > in SDX.SYS then performed all of the functions that ODT supported > (and a few others as well) without adding any extra code to the program > being tested. It is even possible to place a BPT in the monitor code > and test those instructions as well. Ok. So, no symbol table stuff, and no possibility to add breakpoints, watchpoints and other stuff in the program until you hit atleast one BPT in the code which cause the code in SDX to be called? > Based on some of the comments in the SDX.SYS source file, it looks > like it is also available under both RSTS/E and RSX-11. However, > since I have almost no knowledge of RSTS/E and even less of RSX-11, > I can't even begin to speculate why those comments are in the source > file. I dare say that it would be impossible to do the same in RSTS/E or RSX. The reason is that the BPT vector that the CPU uses is set up by the operating system, and is always used. Any program running does not use that vector, but has a dynamically installed debug vector defined as a part of the system image, or set up by a system call by the running program. You do not, and can not, access the hardware related things directly in RSX or RSTS/E and hope that anything will contiue to work. The hardware BPT vector is used by the executive debugger in RSX (XTD), which is a OS debugger somewhat similar to ODT, but specifically designed to debug the OS. It is always there, and if you mess with that, you are going to be sorry. When a user program executes a BPT instruction, the kernel gets called. It checks wether the program have installed a debug handler, and if so, that handler is being called in the context of the user program. If no debug handler have been installed for that program, the program aborts. You can have any number of programs running in parallel, all with their own installed debug handlers, which can actually be different debuggers that have nothing to do with each other. How on earth do you think a common device driver could ever handle such a situation? RT11 is a single user system, where the OS do so much less for you that this concept is even possible. For more complex systems, you cannot do things this way. Johnny

15 years, 11 months

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TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside

by silent700＠gmail.com

Last night I finally had time to assemble my Deviceside USB->5.25" floppy interface. I decided to do it all slick-like and put the drive in the shell of an old Sony USB CDRW. I have two examples of the TEAC FD-55GFR drive laying around, which is the drive recommended on the developer's site. I attached one to the ext drive carrier and powered on. The drive head started seeking back and forth, not the full travel of the disk, maybe 1/4 of it. It made a loud, steady click and flashed the panel light of the bay, as if it was drawing too much power from the little PSU. However, I went ahead and hooked it up and read disks (DOS 1.2mb, AppleDOS and C64 1541) to images. I haven't fully tested the images yet but they didn't error out during the read. The DOS one was mountable in WinImage, the C64 one in CCS64 (don't have an Apple II em handy.) Still bothered by the noise, I attached a Panasonic JU-475-4 drive instead. It was quiet, no blinking light. I imaged the same disks with that drive and that appeared to work fine, too. Does anyone know the FD-55GFR well? It seems to have an auto-sense mech of some kind, and one of the two I have has a spring-eject (the other may have had it too but the spring is missing?) It seems likely that it would click continuously, searching for a disk. Maybe this is normal behavior for this drive and it seems loud because it's open? It does the head-seek continuously whether there is a disk inserted or not, lever-down or not. This seems bad to have happening on top of the exposed disk surface. Or, again, maybe it's normal for this drive? The easy solution is go with the Panasonic and not worry about it. But I'd like to stick to the developer's recommended drive unless I can be sure the Panasonic is 100% compatible too. -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org

15 years, 11 months

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The Chipophone

by lproven＠gmail.com

Not exactly retro in its build, but it might interest folk hereabouts. http://www.linusakesson.net/chipophone/index.php The Chipophone is an electronic organ whose guts have been replaced with a pair of microcontrollers to make it into a 1980s-style 8-bit synthesizer, for playing classic videogame chiptunes live. It helps that its creator is an excellent player of such things. For example, Rob Hubbard's /Spellbound/ from 1986: http://www.linusakesson.net/chipophone/spellbound.php -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508

15 years, 11 months

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Diablo 630 ECS Printer in need of a good home

by mardy＠pernetics.com

I have a mint condition Diablo 630 ECS printer that I purchased NEW a couple of years ago. Yes, new. It still had the shipping tie-downs on the carriage. I've never done anything with it other than run the self-test so it's time to let it go. Before I put it up on eBay, I thought I'd mention it here. It also comes with 12 daisy wheels and the optional automatics sheet feeder which is still sealed in plastic. If someone is willing to come pick it up, I'll let it all go for $100.00. (That's less than what I paid for the daisy wheels.) I'm located in Southern New Hampshire (USA). I've got pictures, if anyone's interested. -Mardy

15 years, 11 months

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Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston

by pat＠computer-refuge.org

Someone should try to snap these up: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140431577078 I doubt scrap value is over (or even near) $50/each, so maybe you can deal with the guy if you're willing to pick them up. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org

15 years, 11 months

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Adaptec SCSI (was Re: Coherent 3.1.0...)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 7/22/10, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: > On 7/22/2010 12:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> If I were to take this for a spin, I could probably come up with an >> Adaptec 1542A (guessing it won't work with a 1542C). > > 1542C was preferred, actually. Excellent. For an ISA card, it's not that uncommon. I bought one when they were brand new and really liked it (I think I was upgrading >from a 1542B at the time). The BIOS-accessible formatter and surface tester was really, really handy. -ethan

15 years, 11 months

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3
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Turbo Technix - Borland publication

by jack.rubin＠ameritech.net

I have the first 6 issues of Borland's Turbo Technix available for the cost of postage. Bimonthly issues run from November/December 1987 through September/October 1988. Please reply offlist. Jack

15 years, 11 months

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Looking for IBM manual circa 1982

by thomas.gardner＠sbcglobal.net

Anyone have a copy of or knows where I can get a copy of: "IBM 4321/4331 Processors Compatibility Features," IBM GA33-1528, any revision? Revision 3 was published in September 1982. Contact off line please Tom

15 years, 11 months

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DEC LA-100 Printer - Free to a good home

by mardy＠pernetics.com

Somebody gave me this a couple of years back and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since. Now it's time to clean off the shelf. If someone wants it before I haul it off to the landfill, please let me know. I never tried it, but the person that gave it to me said that it was working for them. Local pickup in Southern New Hampshire (USA). If someone wants it bad enough and can't pick it up, I'm willing to pack it up and ship it for them. -Mardy

15 years, 11 months

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Serial interfaces

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 11:16 AM 7/20/2010, Liam Proven wrote: >All fair points, but then, who ever used serial ports to connect mass >storage? (I know there was a serial port hard disk for the first ever >Mac, but that was from complete lack of any alternative.) I can think of the Commodore 64- 1541 drive and the external floppy drive for the Tandy Model 100. At 11:21 AM 7/20/2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: >Works beautifully under VMWare Fusion. And when I did have to use >windows, it worked nicely under VMWare server. I was referring to ESXi, the small-to-medium enterprise version. At 12:00 PM 7/20/2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Generic cables? The ends are generic, sure, but there's A, B, mini A, >several types of mini B (one dominant, but hardly unique), and then >there's USB 1.1 vs USB 2.0 in terms of cable ratings (but will a USB >1.1-marked cable pushed to 2.0 speeds really be too noisy or is that >just marketing?) I have no less than 5 flavors of USB cables lying >around the house, though two of the 5 are the most common. Plus the variations and quirks in terms of the power requirements for various devices. There's wall transformers with USB connectors that don't supply enough power for some devices, some PC ports that don't supply enough power, some hubs that that don't, some devices that come with dual USB connectors in order to suck more amps, etc. - John

15 years, 11 months

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Using Hummingbird with DECWindows

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

I am experimenting with using Hummingbird Exceed to get a DECWindows environment running on my PC. I have managed to get this to work using XDM, but there are some other things about Exceed that I don't really understand and would like to explore. The first is that Hummingbird offers an option to use something called PCX$SERVER. I have not been able to find out much about this and was wondering if someone might tell me what this is and where I might find it? The second is that Hummingbird also seems to offer DECnet as a transport, but I don't see how to set this up on the PC side and again the docs I have don't say anything on this. Does anyone know how you might do this? Thanks Rob

15 years, 11 months

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Fw: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released

by julianskidmore＠yahoo.com

Hi folks, > If it was developed on the Lisa, would they have used LisaPascal? Actually the answer is in: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=3rd_Party_Deve… It was done using the "Lisa Monitor development environment" which was command line based with a UCSD p-system style command structure (early Mac programmers considered MPW to be the PorkShop). -cheers from julz @P

15 years, 11 months

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Fw: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released

by julianskidmore＠yahoo.com

Hi folks, > If it was developed on the Lisa, would they have used LisaPascal? There's a > Lisa emulator out there -- I might play with it this weekend and see if it > works. www.folklore.org has lots of juicy stories about early Mac development. In 1981 they were using Lisas for development (obviously). MacPaint development details: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=MacPaint_Evolu… The following article explains that "Macintosh development in the early days (circa 1983-1985) was done using the Apple Lisa computer and its Lisa Workshop development environment." http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=3rd_Party_Deve… I remember using (the interpreted) MacPascal in 1986. There weren't any Mac-hosted Pascal compiler environments that could fit into <=512Kb (128K Macs could support 256KBit DRAMs). I'm really wondering how easy it would be to convert MacPaint so that it can be compiled in, say, MPW Pascal / 68K. -cheers from julz @p

15 years, 11 months

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MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released

by ray＠arachelian.com

Found the link below this morning, mostly assembly with some Pascal as to be expected. Hopefully more will show up. Looks like there's a nice history there as well. http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/

15 years, 11 months

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dssi terminators 2pcs.

by hp-fix＠xs4all.nl

If I remeber correct some one was asking for DEC dssi tewrminators. I found two in my toolbox, free for cost of posting (I'm in the Netherlands) -Rik

15 years, 11 months

2
1
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recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!

by tshoppa＠wmata.com

> Still the question remains: how best to read cartridge tapes with > faulty belts and sticky drive capstans? Even 20 years ago, it was de rigueur to disassemble the cartridge and replace worn or stretched or deformed rubber parts with new or at least better components from a "donor cartridge". When the decay had left little rubber fragments in the path you had to take the cart apart to remove/clean them before reading anyway. Twenty years ago, only the worst (due to extreme ozone exposure or physical wear) carts needed this. Today the issue is that all the donor cartridges may be 20 or 30 years old too. Tim.

15 years, 11 months

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Fanfold paper tape storage bins/trays

by RichA＠vulcan.com

Serious question: We have a number of paper tapes which have been stored in paper boxes for quite some time. I would like, if at all possible, to move these into the kind of storage containers in which many of our tapes already live. These are transparent stable plastic with a lid, divided into 8 sections of Just the Right Size(TM) to hold fanfold paper tape. There is probably no one who makes these any longer, but on the off chance that I am wrong about that, does anyone know (a) who might make these, or (b) what they are called, so that I can try to find them using one of the large search engines, or (c) have a supply of them stashed with which the current owner is willing to part? Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

15 years, 11 months

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Fw: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released

by richard.cini＠wellsfargo.com

If it was developed on the Lisa, would they have used LisaPascal? There's a Lisa emulator out there -- I might play with it this weekend and see if it works. ------Original Message------ From: Cameron Kaiser Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: CCTalk ReplyTo: CCTalk Subject: Re: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released Sent: Jul 22, 2010 11:02 AM > I've never used Think Pascal, but I did use Think C (LightSpeed C) a > lot. I wonder if you could port it to Think Pascal... I would think you > could. Or maybe it would "just build" using MPW. Glancing cursorily, I think MPW would have a fit. The .rsrc file also needs to be turned into a proper resource fork. My instinct would be to try to pre-process it. I agree THINK Pascal would be the logical, closest first target. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's farther away. ------------- Rich ----------------------------- Richard A. Cini, Jr. Managing Director Wells Fargo Capital Finance New York, NY 10017 (P) (212)-545-4402 -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld This email is subject to a disclaimer, please click on the following link or cut and paste the link into the address bar of your browser. https://www.wellsfargo.com/com/disclaimer/uswfbnap

15 years, 11 months

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Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms.

by jdr_use＠bluewin.ch

I am looking for a set of boot proms that would enable me to boot from the RL01 that is connected to my PDP8/A That is, if such a boot prom actually exists..... And as a side note : why is the 8/A so unloved ? Big RL01 disk, 128k memory, fpp processor, all in one case. Try that with another -8 ! Jos

15 years, 11 months

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recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!)

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

On 21 Jul 2010, at 22:22, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 23 > From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> > > > In article <4C46A57E.15148.5E8BCB at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: > >> [...] Almost all cartridge DC- >> style tapes are recorded "serpentine" style--i.e. start in one >> direction, shift the head, reverse, etc... > > This is news to me. Every cartridge tape I've ever used recorded data > to the end and then stopped. I don't recall seeing any mechanism for > shifting the tape head in HP264x terminals with DC100 cartridges nor > in Tektronix 4051 terminals with DC300 cartridges. > >> So the spooling scheme had better work. I'm not aware of any 32- >> channel (for example) QIC heads. > > QIC tapes are something different from DC300 and DC100 tapes. I always though QIC was an abbreviation for Quarter Inch Cassette. I'm fairly sure I've used DC300s and they were cassettes full of quarter inch tape with a constant peripheral speed drive band inside so no need for variable speed spool motors. Roger Holmes

15 years, 11 months

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Serial interfaces

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 09:15 AM 7/20/2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I really do not like USB. It takes hundreds of cycles and more to >move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, >and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. What drives me crazy is the lack of debugging of the stack. When it's not working on contemporary Windows kit, there's no way I've found to help understand what's not really working. This morning, I plugged a client's thumb drive into their laptop, and the logical drive seemed to disappear at random. I switch connectors, thinking it's a wonky physical connector, no difference. Just unreliable. Another stunner was that vmWare didn't support native USB on the host. They're accomplishing thousands of other miracles, but can't virtualize USB enough for me to connect a drive to a virtual appliance? (I think this is fixed in last month's major release.) I'm often trying to connect client hard drives to backup machines via USB-to-SATA/IDE adapters, and when the drive won't seem to wake-up or show up, there's no way to debug where it is failing. I suspect some of the opacity is deeper in Windows at the logical Disk Management level, with layers of "Disk 1" numbering, logical drives and partitions and SCSI emulation, a registry that records every drive fingerprint ever connected to it (really), etc. Last week, a client's thumb drives weren't being recognized. I had to reinstall Windows. I think Windows was failing at the very top layer, at the moment where a recognized device was known to be hard drive, but it couldn't show it as a logical drive. And yet so many built-in media-readers for CF/SD cards will show logical drive letters to the OS when there's nothing inserted. My desktop shows four. Why? - John

15 years, 11 months

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Cayman GatorBox CS firmware update issues

by smoothbase＠mac.com

Do you still have at least one box left in your storage Am I the lucky one and how much it is sincerely Jean-Pierre Baselis Boston and Paris

15 years, 11 months

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SLAMMING vintage computer auction ends

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

made you look: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120596128607&ssPageName=… Canon CX-1. Not in the greatest condition, but it's the first time I've seen one offered. 6809 based. My Canon AS100 has something in the way of a native debugger also (haven't turned it on in over a year). starting bid was 25$. Ended at about 235$. And I had thought that no one even knew it existed.

15 years, 11 months

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Fwd: Re: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms.

by lbickley＠bickleywest.com

For those who use Firefox, Chrome, etc. browswers that support FTP you can also: ftp://bickleywest.com/pdp8a_bootrom/ and right click on the files... Cheers, Lyle ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. Date: Wednesday 21 July 2010 From: Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> To: cctech at classiccmp.org On Wednesday 21 July 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > I am looking for a set of boot proms that would enable me to boot from the RL01 that is connected to my PDP8/A > That is, if such a boot prom actually exists..... > > And as a side note : why is the 8/A so unloved ? > > Big RL01 disk, 128k memory, fpp processor, all in one case. Try that with another -8 ! > > Jos > > I've uploaded the two bootroms you need to boot a RL01 on a PDP-8A using a KM8 (M8317). You'll need to burn the images into 82s126 chips. I've also uploaded the corresponding level 8A schmatics/manuals which have this level of ROM described (IIRC on the third page of the KM8 portion of the schematics). You can pick up the images and manual by: ftp bickleywest.com user: anonymous pswd: (email address) cd pdp8a_bootrom ... bye Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" ------------------------------------------------------- -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

15 years, 11 months

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17" CRT - Worth Keeping?

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

> > I have a bulky Unisys EVG-500-COL 17" monitor that is taking up space. It > has a 9-pin VGA connector and 5 BNC plugs on the back. It needs to warm up > to work properly. I am not sure whether to keep it or just take it to the > tip. What do people here think? Well, alas I agree that monitors can be a right pain to store, being large, heavy, and often not easy to stack things on top of. I think I would keep the monitor if it fitted into one of the following categories. 1) It is the origianl monitor for a particular classic computer (so I would keep the special monitors used on PERQs, and the HP-badged NEC mono monitros used with the HP86B, etc) 2) It does something that modern monitors don't (supports a particular scan rate, for example) 3) It has something interesting about the design. Any others? -tony

15 years, 11 months

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Hand clocking CPUs

by jplist2008＠kiwigeek.com

Hey; I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally manually step it through instructions. Is this as rare as it sounds? Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? - JP Hampton, Iowa

15 years, 11 months

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ez80

by RJasper5＠cox.net

Hi Jeff, Interesting article. I am a big fan of the ez80f91. I find the data throughput rate so efficient that it's hard to over tax the CPU. I've built some pretty elaborate hardware/software systems using it! One thing I've been curious about and I want to try this myself some time. I wonder if anyone's ever built an LCD controller using the ez80? I believe it should be possible to get VGA quality out of it. Regards, Rick Jasper

15 years, 11 months

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Micro-Systems magazines for free

by tosteve＠yahoo.com

For the cost of shipping: S-100 "Micro Systems" magazines Issues 1/1 (Jan 80) through 3/4 (Jul 82). Issue 1/3 is missing. I am in southern California 92656

15 years, 11 months

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Data I/O 22C manual + service book available

by jdr_use＠bluewin.ch

Free for the cost of shipping from Switzerland : Data I/O 22C manual /service book Jos Dreesen

15 years, 11 months

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Wang 1200

by legalize＠xmission.com

I may be able to get my hands on one, but I'm not sure if its complete. <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/tmp/wang/> Is this just the main CPU unit? Anyone out there have a complete one for comparison? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

15 years, 11 months

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Elenco MM-8000 (OT)

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

I was looking for something totally different on the web (always the way...) and I came across the Elenco MM-8000 kit. It appears to be in current production (and is not _that_ expensive, $120 or so). It's a kit to build (as in solder up a PCB) a single-board 8085-based computer with a keypad and even front panel switches. OK, it's OT (in that it's not 10 years old), but it certainly seems to have the feel of a classic evaluation board. Has anyone here tried it? -tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft? Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail

15 years, 11 months

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recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!

by tshoppa＠wmata.com

Al writes: > I have been using conventional drives for 1/2" tape recovery. > John Bordyuik's web site at one point described the system he uses, > which has a modified M4 data tranport fitted with an IBM 3480 16 track > magnetorestrictive head and modified read electronics. In either case > the tape transport is conventional. His current website is different than the old one but he's got some good techie tidbits mixed in with technical whiz-bang and very satisfyingly shows recovered data and graphical representations of analysis techniques and post-processing for application specific data, along with a heavy sales pitch at: http://www.johnbordynuik.com/sites/default/files/tech_briefing.pdf Tim.

15 years, 11 months

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Thinning The Herd

by fsmith＠ladylinux.com

Hi Steve, Sorry .. Baltimore Maryland. >Can you be a bit more specific re location... for those of us who >might enjoy a drive,

15 years, 11 months

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DEC PDP 11/23 - OK to use 22-bit memory boards in an 18-bit qbus?

by scott.m.18＠atsgate.com

Hello, I recently acquired my first DEC PDP. It is a VT103 (VT100 terminal with a PDP 11/23 inside). It came with a pair of cartridge disk drives (HEAVY!) that are RK05 compatible, a DEC RX02 (pair of 8" floppy disk drives), boxes of manuals, 3 DEC operating systems, software, and an extra VT100. While the DEC operating systems are OK, I am actually interested in using the machine to (finally) go through "Lions' Commentary on Unix" (Unix V6), using software downloaded from http://www.tuhs.org/. (Lions' book here): http://www.amazon.com/dp/1573980137/ After I do that, I want to move up to Unix v7, 2.9BSD, and try other Unix distros available for the PDP. My concern is that the 18-bit PDP 11/23 does not have enough memory. It currently has 128KB installed, with a maximum of 256K possible after a memory board upgrade (M8067, MSV11-PK = 256KB). How far do you estimate I can get with just 128KB memory? Can I get through Lions' book? I am looking at adding wires to the backplane to make it a 22-bit machine, and using a quad height qbus memory board, M7551 (available in 1MB, 2MB and 4MB sizes). However, I am not ready to dive in and start modifying the qbus backplane for 22-bit addressing just yet. So my question is: Rather than invest in a 256KB memory board designed for the 18-bit qbus, can I install a 22-bit 1MB, 2MB or 4MB memory board in the 18-bit system, and just use the first 256KB for now? Also, is the VT103 backplane compatible with a quad-height memory board? (It only has dual-height cards installed at the present time). Parts inventory: - VT103, with: - 4x4 qbus backplane, 18-bit. The manual says "two H803s (2x4 connector blocks, stacked vertically in a 4x4 configuration)". I know there are possible issues with "straight" vs. "serpentine" slots, but I have not got that figured out yet on the VT103. - M8186 KDF11-A CPU (Newer revisions of KDF11-A's are 22-bit capable). http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt says: "(Prior to etch rev. C, 18-bit addressing only. ...)" I could not find revision information on the M8186 board, but "146 CA" is stamped into one of the red plastic handles. I can email close-up photos to anyone who wants to take a look and determine if this is a rev C or later board capable of 22-bit addressing. - M8043 Quad Serial board. This doc says it is 22-bit compatible: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardwar… - M8029 (RXV21) floppy disk board (18-bit DMA only). -Will this be a problem with Unix v6 or 2.9BSD if running with 22-bit addressing? - M8208 "VT103 Maintenance Module" (Unknown if 22-bit compatible). - Xylogics C510 (formerly called "Wizard 1") cartridge disk controller board, with 18-bit addressing, connected to a pair CDC 9427H "Hawk" disk drives (one disk drive is DOA, but the other is OK). - 3rd party memory board (128KB), Christlin Industries, Inc. So, initially I want to run a 22-bit memory board (M7551) in an 18-bit VT103 qbus backplane, and access only the first 256KB of memory using 18-bit addressing. Is this possible? Thank you for your help. Scott M.

15 years, 11 months

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RTEM-11

by bqt＠softjar.se

"Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> > >"Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: >> > >>> >> I would not assume anything until I actually had tested the presence >>> >> or absence of a >>> >> specific "feature". >> > >> > What have any features have to do with this? >> > I'm telling you that RTEM-11 will not, and never have been capable of >> > running on a VAX. >> > If there was a RTEM product for the VAX, it would have to be a >> > separate product, with a separate code base from RTEM-11, since you >> > cannot write a RT-11 emulator of any kind in PDP-11 mode on a VAX. It >> > will have to be VAX code. And thus, it can not be the same product as >> > a RT-11 emulator program written to run under RSX. > > I agree that it is obvious that the RTS code will be written in the native > instruction set of the system under which the RTS is running. That means > that the RTS system under RSTS/E executes PDP-11 instructions and > uses RSTS/E EMT requests. As you state, under VMS and a VAX, > VAX instructions are used. And if I may push the envelope a bit, under > SIMH, x86 instructions are used if we agree to call SIMH or E11 a RTS > of a different kind, although the more descriptive name is emulator. No. Now you are mixing and confusing things again. First of all, let's make clear that RTS is a RSTS/E specific concept. Don't use it outside discussions of RSTS/E. As RTS is a RSTS/E specific thing, any code written to implement an RTS is *always* written in PDP-11 machine code. You could possibly write it in some supported high level language under RSTS/E, but I don't think any actually is supported for doing this. The one possibility I can think of would be PDP-11 C for RSTS/E, which might allow you to do something like this. Otherwise, an RTS must be written in MACRO-11. The RTS does not do anything until a trap happens. Be that from an EMT, an illegal memory reference, or whatever. At that point, the RTS is called at a specific address, and the RTS can then do whatever it feels like, and either abort the running program, or else let it continue. The PDP-11 compatibility mode on some VAXen allows the PDP-11 instructions to be executed without any other layer involved. They are executed by the microcode of the CPU. But not all instructions are implemented. If an unimplemented instruction is executed, the CPU traps back to VAX mode, and to a trap handler. Something like simh is like the microcode of the CPU. However, the microcode in this case looks just like x86 assembler. This is nothing at all like what an RTS under RSTS/E is doing. The microcode executes all instructions that have been implemented, and if an unimplemented instruction occurs, some kind of trap happens. On a VAX, this will be a trap back to VAX mode, and a trap handler. Under simh, it will be handled just like on any other PDP-11. Ie. you'll get a trap in PDP-11 mode, to the trap address for illegal instructions. (Check out the processor handbook for a PDP-11 if you want more details on this.) Now, it should be pretty obvious that this is not the same thing as what un RTS do. An RTS depends on the PDP-11 specific behaviour when a trap occurs. A VAX does not follow that behaviour. A PDP-11 emulator like simh do. So, you can run RSTS/E on simh, but you cannot run RSTS/E on a VAX. Furthermore, you can have an RTS under RSTS/E which emulates the RT-11 system calls. You cannot even run that RTS on VMS. > My reference to a specific "feature" is with respect to the actual > details of > the RTS in question. For RSTS/E, the RTS to handle RT-11 EMT requests > does not support even all of the RT-11 EMT requests which the RT11SJ > monitor in RT-11 supports. For example, the .CStatus request is ignored > and the .SaveStatus request return the "dev:filnam.typ" and [PPN] for the > file in question rather than the five Channel Status words used in an RT-11 > environment. So there are significant differences between the RT-11 RTS > under RSTS/E and an actual RT11SJ monitor running under a PDP-11 > instruction set (specified so as to include both a DEC CPU and an emulator > such as SIMH). Yes. And RTEM-11 will also behave slightly differently that vanilla RT-11 for some of those calls. And assuming there is a product called RTEM, which runs under VMS, it too will behave differently than RT-11. However, RTEM-11 and this RTEM will not necessarily behave the same way, since RTEM-11 and RTEM are different products, and different implementations, written by different people (assumingly) at different times. >>>>>>> >>>> >> I don''t know if Megan Gentry is still around or perhaps Allison >>>>> >>>> or >> one of the >>>>>>> >>>> >> other DEC fellows. Perhaps they might at least know something >>>>> >>>> about >> which >>>>>>> >>>> >> hardware and operating system(s) supported RTEM? >>>> >>> >>>>> >>> > I definitely remember (and probably still have some mail >>>> >>> somewhere) > from Megan mentioning that she used RTEM-11 for RT-11 >>>> >>> work, running on > RSX machines. Possibly even an 11/74. >>> >> >>> >> I don't have enough information about RSX to know if RTEM-11 was >>> >> supported. >>> >> However, ... >> > >> > I'm telling you that it is. Just google for it, and you will find the >> > documentation from DEC that is still on the net about this product. >> > It's actually really simple. Go to "www.google.com". Type in "rtem-11 >> > rsx" in the search field, and hit enter. >> > The first hit will be >> > http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%…, >> > which is "RSX-11M Optional Software Cross Reference Table", which >> > lists what version of various software is compatible with RSX-11M V4.0 >> > and V4.1. Among these, you'll find RTEM-11 V1.0 and V1.1. More >> > "supported" than that is hard to get. > > Thank you for the reference. Although this does make my goal of having > the code > support running the program under the RTEM-11 RTS even more difficult. RTEM-11 is not an RTS. RTEM-11 is a product that ran (runs) under RSX. If I were to make a qualified guess, I'd suspect that RTEM-11 is a program that you start just like any other program under RSX. That program then looks like an RT-11 environment, so you can run RT-11 programs inside that. RTEM-11 will catch EMTs and other traps, and do something appropriate to those traps. It's not difficult to catch traps in an RSX program. Exactly what it does, and how, is another issue. And that is something you are asking about, and which I cannot answer, and it seems noone else can either, since noone around here have RTEM-11, or have used it. As I said, I think Megan mentioned that she had used it, but she's the only one I know of who have admitted to any knowledge about this product. > On the > other hand, I doubt that anyone will be likely to even test the RTEM-11 > handling > portion of the code, so I am probably going to just assume that what > works for the > RT-11 RTS system under RSTS/E will also suffice for the RTEM-11 RTS under > RSX-11. Not an RTS, but anyway, you are most probably very correct in the assumption that noone will test you code under RTEM-11. >>>>>>> >>>> >> In addition, RSTS/E also supported RT-11 programs via the >>>>> >>>> SWITCH RT11 >>>>>>> >>>> >> capability. However, only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ >>>>> >>>> are >> supported >>>>>>> >>>> >> by RSTS/E. At least there is quite reasonable documentation as >>>>> >>>> well >> as the ability >>>>>>> >>>> >> to test and actually run RT-11 programs under RSTS/E up to the >>>>> >>>> latest >> versions >>>>>>> >>>> >> of RSTS/E. RT-11 EMTs for mapped RT-11 monitors (RT11XM) are >>>>> >>>> not >> supported >>>>>>> >>>> >> not are multi-terminal EMTs. Also, probably the latest RT-11 >>>>> >>>> EMTs >> for file status >>>>>>> >>>> >> information are also not supported under RSTS/E. >>>> >>> >>>>> >>> > The correct technical term is that RSTS/E have a RT-11 *run time > >>>> >>> system*. An RTS in RSTS/E provides an environment under which you >>>> >>> can > get a specific behaviour. So you had RTSes for RT-11, RSX, >>>> >>> BASIC+, > TECO, DCL and some other stuff. Some RTSes were also KBMs >>>> >>> (keyboard > monitors), meaning you could "switch" to them, and get >>>> >>> an interactive > command line interpreter with that. But the RTS >>>> >>> mostly implemented > system calls. However, there were RTSes which >>>> >>> didn't implement any > system calls, and only gave you the basic >>>> >>> calls RSTS/E itself > provided, and mostly focused on being a KBM, >>>> >>> such as DCL. >>> >> >>> >> I apologize for my lack of familiarity with the terminology. Your >>> >> description >>> >> is what I was attempting to say. >> > >> > :-) >> > >>> >> Actually, my testing seems to show that RSTS/E supports being able to >>> >> run RT-11 programs even if the RT-11 RTS is not activated. For example: >>> >> RUN MACRO >>> >> is possible if the RTS is normal RSTS/E or RT-11. This might be >>> >> based on the >>> >> file type. RSTS/E may determine that MACRO.SAV is an RT-11 program and >>> >> support the RT-11 EMT requests. Or RSTS/E may support naked RT-11 EMT >>> >> requests from any program. That is something I should test. >> > >> > No, you are confusing things, and making wild guesses. >> > What do you mean by "activated"? There is no activation. If an RTS is >> > installed, it will always be used for programs that are marked as >> > requiring that RTS. This is an "attribute" of a file. Whenever that >> > file is run, it is run under the indicated RTS. If you try to run a >> > program that requires an RTS that don't exist I would suspect that >> > you'll get an error. > > That is what I had assumed, however, I am curious how RSTS/E decides > which RTS to use - or none at all as the case might be. Are you not reading what I am writing? This is an attribute of the file. You *tell* which RTS a program should run under. Normally you do not need to do this explicitly, since every file always have an RTS associated with it, and it's normally already correct, so no need to change it. When a file is created, it is created by a program. That program is running under an RTS. And so, the new file will by default also be associated with that RTS. So when you run LINK.SAV to create a new runnable file, LINK.SAV will create your file, and since LINK.SAV runs under the RT11 RTS, your new program created by LINK.SAV will also be marked as associated with the RT11 RTS. Now, this is obviously correct, so you do not need to think about it. If you instead run TKB.TSK, that program runs under the RSX RTS. And TKB.TSK will create a new runnable task for you. A pretty good and obvious guess is that that program is a RSX task, and as such, you want it to run under the RSX RTS. And since TKB is an RSX task, it runs under the RSX RTS, and files created by TKB will thus also be associated with the RSX RTS. Once again, right without you having to think about it. Would you ever want to force a program to run under another RTS (probably a bad idea, but anyway...) you can change this with the PIP program. Now, I hope I've made it clear enough this time. >> > Also, if you type "RUN MACRO", how do you know that you are even >> > running the RT-11 version? RSTS/E normally also have an RSX RTS >> > available, and an MACRO.TSK, which is MACRO-11 running under the RSX RTS. > > When MACRO.SAV is run (under the RSTS/E RTS or any other RTS or under > any other operating system including RT-11 and TSX-Plus, it is simple to > just > type <RETURN> at the "*" prompt to obtain the version number and so identify > which program is being run. RSTS/E is *not* an RTS. RSTS/E is the operating system. RT-11 the operating system is never an RTS. There is an RT11 RTS under RSTS/E, but that is only relevant when you are running RSTS/E as the operating system. If you type just "RUN MACRO", how do you even know it's invoking MACRO.SAV? There is also a MACRO.TSK normally under RSTS/E, since you might also want to compile things in RSX flavour. Both are MACRO-11, based on the same code base, and actually even generating the same object files. However, the system calls they make are specific to the OS they are built for, so they are not the same binaries. MACRO.SAV *always* runs under the RT11 RTS. If you were to try and run MACRO.SAV under any other RTS, you would crash and burn hard and fast. Note that what KBM you have switched to have nothing to do with this. You can switch to basic, DCL, or RSX for all that you want. If you then run MACRO.SAV, it will still run under the RT11 RTS. It *must*, or it won't work. >>>>> >>> > All exeutable files have an RTS associated with it, and when the > >>>> >>> program is run, it is run under that RTS, which then handles all >>>> >>> EMTs > and so on when the program executes them. >>> >> >>> >> Does the file type trigger the use of that RTS? >> > >> > Unless my memory have totally rotted away, the answer is no. The RTS >> > associated with a file is an attribute of the file, just like file >> > protection. There is a switch to PIP that you can use to check, and >> > set, the RTS. >> > That said, all RTS have a default file extension as well, and I think >> > that is used to search for runnable files if you just type "RUN MACRO" >> > for example. > > That answer helps quite a bit. Thank you! So, if you have access to a RSTS/E system, now type "HELP PIP", and find out how you see and set the RTS for a program. >>> >> I do have a question. With V7 of RSTS/E, the FIT program is able to >>> >> copy files from a drive with an RT-11 file structure (such as an RX02) >>> >> to the RSTS/E file structure. My initial testing with V10.1 of RSTS/E >>> >> shows that (at the very least the distribution which I am using) does >>> >> not >>> >> have a FIT program. Is there some other method of making a copy of >>> >> a file on an RX02 with an RT-11 file structure to a device with a RSTS/E >>> >> file structure? >> > >> > Either FIT, or some "new" program that does the same thing, I'd guess. >> > I'm no expert on RSTS/E, and my experience is old. I mostly ran RSTS/E >> > between V7.1 and V9.0, with the majority of my time in the V7-V8 >> > timeframe. > > Well, I am having difficulty finding the "new" program under V10.1 of > RSTS/E. > I finally managed to figure out how to MOUNT the RL02 drives I am "using" > (don't forget that all the code is being run under SIMH or E11) under V7 of > RSTS/E when I am running V10.1 of RSTS/E. Since FIT had already copied > to file to the RL02 drives, I could then used PIP to copy the program in > I am > testing to the correct [PPN] on the DU0: drive which is being "used" to run > V10.1 of RSTS/E. A bit inconvenient, but fortunately faster than on a DEC > system. That sentence makes no sense. Either you are running RSTS/E V7, or RSTS/E V10, you cannot run RSTS/E V10 when you are running RSTS/E V7, or vice versa. You'll have to reboot the machine in order to run another version of RSTS/E. >>> >> Also, is it possible to run an RT-11 program under a DEBUG mode? It >>> >> would be much easier to check out the code if that is possible. At the >>> >> moment, I can check most of the code under RT-11. However, the >>> >> portion which runs in a different manner under RSTS/E as opposed to >>> >> RT-11 since RSTS/E does not support all RT-11 EMT requests in the >>> >> same manner as RT-11. >> > >> > What do you mean by "debug" mode??? > > I am not sure if RSX-11 has an SD(X).SYS device driver like RT-11 which > handles the BPT instructions placed in a program running under RT-11 when > the user wants to stop a program in the middle of running and check out the > code. The SD(X).SYS device driver under RT-11 supports the features that > the ODT subroutine handles without the requirement for that subroutine to be > part of the program which is being tested. Under TSX-Plus, there is a > so-called > debug option which invokes the same sort of support. Since the SD(X).SYS > is written as a device driver in RT-11 (starting with around V5.4 of > RT-11 if That is called a debugger, and yes, there are several debuggers for both RSTS/E and RSX. Normally you have to link them into the runnable image in order to be able to access things in the running program though. If the debugger is not linked in to the program, the program will normally abort if it executes a BPT instruction. Since you do mention this concept in your text, you should be familiar with it. ODT is one of the debuggers availabe, and I believe it's the only one shipped with RSTS/E by default. > I remember correctly), debugging a program under RT-11 became much easier > since ODT was no longer inserted into the program being tested. > > I was hoping that RSTS/E has the same sort of feature available, but > that does > not seem to be the case. But then how did users debug their programs under > RSTS/E? With ODT linked in to the program, just as you mentioned that people normally did with RT11 in the past as well. The same type of development cycle is still what people use to this day. You build a special debug version, which you run through the debugger, and when you are happy, you build a new, leaner version, without debug support. I'm not sure how you use that device driver under RT11, nor how useful it actually is... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

15 years, 11 months

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need Lisa parts

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

in particular a nice crt-chassis, etc. I was perusing the vintage computer marketplace a few weeks back, and someone had some of that very stuff. I think it may even have been Erik. In any event I don't know how to contact anyone on that site anymore, because someone gummed up the works LOL. please let me know. Much obliged.

15 years, 11 months

2
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Thinning The Herd

by fsmith＠ladylinux.com

Hi Guys, I am mostly a Lurker here and very much enjoy and will continue to enjoy reading the posts here. However I am feeling a need to thin down my collection some that I have been accumulating over the last 10 years. I am looking for people to show up here with some cash and a truck and to haul away some of my prized possession's. I don't have any blinking light DEC machines anymore or anything ultra rare like a Lisa but I do have a large assortment of PDP 11/23 and other QBus equipment. As well as a decent sized collection of regular PDP 11 Unibus and mass buss boards. I also have many different types of workstations such as Dec Professionals , Rainbows and 3100 and 4000 series gear. Also a virtual pile of peripherals. Also some smaller stuff like KayPro , Osborne etc. Also much software as well and a couple nice televideo terminals. Now I did pay good cash money for all of this and its all been stored in a climate controlled clean area. So anyone who wants a instant collection or just wants to come by and kick the tires and do some dealing please e-mail me at fsmith at ladylinux dot com. Please try and keep communications off list as this is not really applicable I feel. Thanks!! Fran (Mid Alantic USA)

15 years, 11 months

2
1
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Valves/Tubes was: ez80

by tshoppa＠wmata.com

Will writes: > The US truly is (was?) the land of standardized parts. And the even better part, is there are so many standards to choose from!!! Occasionally I get to even use Whitworth threads here at work :) Tim.

15 years, 11 months

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Any former Psion 5 owners out there?

by lproven＠gmail.com

This is not strictly on-topic, but I thought it might be of interest. I for one, and a lot of former Psion-owning acquaintances, have long bemoaned that there is no modern equivalent of the classic keyboard-driven PDA available today. Which is why I was rather interested by this device: http://digitalchunk.com/kddi-sharp-android-iso1-smartbook.htm -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508

15 years, 11 months

7
15
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68K ISA project

by ken＠seefried.com

On 7/11/2010 1:00 PM, "Andrew Lynch"<lynchaj at yahoo.com> > > Hi! Just out of curiosity does anyone know of any home brew ISA bus 68K > boards? > Didn't Circuit Cellar do something like this in a series of articles? KJ

15 years, 11 months

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Formatting media issues (was Re: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 7/19/10, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 19 Jul 2010 at 8:00, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Reminds me of >> the DEC Rainbow (wasn't that system deliberately crippled to prevent >> it from being able to format blank media?). > > If the Amlyn disks use an embedded servo, formatting one is a > mechanical issue--you need to periodically offset from the central > track axis a bit one way or the other to write a servo burst. Not > easy to do wth a conventional read/write drive. That's one issue I recall with the transition from RK05 to RL01 as "inexpensive" cartridge media in the DEC world. The RK05 has a manually-aligned external positioner, and the RL01 (and RL02) uses embedded servo data. One advantage to the RK05 technique is that you can format packs that have been bulk-erased (since the platters only contain data, not positioning info) One advantage to the RL01 is that you don't have to be quite as precise with head alignment (you have to be close enough for the embedded servo data to be legible, then, IIRC, the positioner circuit can lock on the rest of the way). There was another method that was acceptable for multi-surface packs - a servo surface. It's not worth dedicating an entire surface to positioner data if you only have two surfaces - you get a poor space-to-cost ratio. If you have 4-8 surfaces, it's more practical to give up a surface (vs a loss of some space for embedded servo info). An advantage of a servo-surface pack is that you can easily format the data surfaces as long as you leave the servo surface untouched. I've heard of a field service device for writing servo data on a wiped RL pack, but I've never seen one in person. -ethan

15 years, 11 months

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Amlyn Minipac diskette changer

by snhirsch＠gmail.com

Has anyone else on the list seen one of these? I picked up a Vista V1200 disk system for Apple 2 that uses this type of drive. The mechanism takes a plastic cartridge with five 5.25" floppy disks. The diskettes appear to be conventional SS format with a couple of extra punchouts to mate with the loader mechanism. Electrical interface is compatible with 8" floppy drives (interface card was also sold for that purpose). I'm not able to turn up any information about the drive and am wondering how the diskette select/load scheme is intended to work. There are at least a couple of possibilities: - Treat the physical diskettes as portions of a single logical floppy and select diskette by track range (first diskette 0-39, second 40-79, etc.) - Treat each physical diskette as a logical drive and use binary select lines on interface to choose. Anyone have documentation on the drive mechanism or the Vista product? Steve --

15 years, 11 months

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Northgate OmniKey Ultra

by LWhetton＠usbr.gov

Is the keyboard still available for purchase? Please advise. Thank you. Linda Whetton Environmental Resources Division 125 S. State Street, Room 6107 Salt Lake City UT 84138-1147 Tel: 801-524-3880 Fax: 801-524-3858 EM: lwhetton at usbr.gov

15 years, 11 months

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RTEM-11

by bqt＠softjar.se

"Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> >> I suspect that the most likely possibility is that RTEM and RTEM-11 >>> >> are used. >> > >> > Huh? If you are suggesting that they would be the same, I can assure >> > you they could not. > > I would not assume anything until I actually had tested the presence or > absence of a > specific "feature". What have any features have to do with this? I'm telling you that RTEM-11 will not, and never have been capable of running on a VAX. If there was a RTEM product for the VAX, it would have to be a separate product, with a separate code base from RTEM-11, since you cannot write a RT-11 emulator of any kind in PDP-11 mode on a VAX. It will have to be VAX code. And thus, it can not be the same product as a RT-11 emulator program written to run under RSX. >> > A very common misconception these days seems to be that VAXen with >> > PDP-1 compatibility could run PDP-11 programs. That is only true in a >> > very limited sense. Only the basic PDP-11 instruction set is supported >> > by the VAX, and only the user mode stuff. EMTs, as well as any other >> > kind of traps, interrupts, and so on, was *not* supported. >> > When you execute an EMT in PDP-11 mode on a VAX, it will trap back to >> > VAX mode. No possibility to have a PDP-11 trap handler. > > The absence of a PDP-11 trap handler under VMS compatibility mode on a VAX > is definitely one possible situation. However, I suggest that it may > also be possible > for RTEM under VMS on a VAX to handle some of the SJ RT-11 EMT requests. Definitely. But the code that catches the trap, and does something will have to be VAX code, and not PDP-11 code. You cannot write a trap handler in PDP-11 code on a VAX, no matter how much of the PDP-11 compatibility that exist in the VAX hardware. The PDP-11 compatibility mode simple does not extend to that stuff. Period. >>> >> In addition, I also suspect that both Johnny and Ethan are correct in >>> >> that RTEM >>> >> was supported under both RSX and VMS on an older VAX which allowed >>> >> compatibility mode. >> > >> > It would have to be totally separate products in that case. > > AGREED!! Thank you. Now we can proceed. >>> >> I don''t know if Megan Gentry is still around or perhaps Allison or >>> >> one of the >>> >> other DEC fellows. Perhaps they might at least know something about >>> >> which >>> >> hardware and operating system(s) supported RTEM? >> > >> > I definitely remember (and probably still have some mail somewhere) >> > from Megan mentioning that she used RTEM-11 for RT-11 work, running on >> > RSX machines. Possibly even an 11/74. > > I don't have enough information about RSX to know if RTEM-11 was supported. > However, ... I'm telling you that it is. Just google for it, and you will find the documentation from DEC that is still on the net about this product. It's actually really simple. Go to "www.google.com". Type in "rtem-11 rsx" in the search field, and hit enter. The first hit will be http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%…, which is "RSX-11M Optional Software Cross Reference Table", which lists what version of various software is compatible with RSX-11M V4.0 and V4.1. Among these, you'll find RTEM-11 V1.0 and V1.1. More "supported" than that is hard to get. >>> >> In addition, RSTS/E also supported RT-11 programs via the SWITCH RT11 >>> >> capability. However, only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ are >>> >> supported >>> >> by RSTS/E. At least there is quite reasonable documentation as well >>> >> as the ability >>> >> to test and actually run RT-11 programs under RSTS/E up to the latest >>> >> versions >>> >> of RSTS/E. RT-11 EMTs for mapped RT-11 monitors (RT11XM) are not >>> >> supported >>> >> not are multi-terminal EMTs. Also, probably the latest RT-11 EMTs >>> >> for file status >>> >> information are also not supported under RSTS/E. >> > >> > The correct technical term is that RSTS/E have a RT-11 *run time >> > system*. An RTS in RSTS/E provides an environment under which you can >> > get a specific behaviour. So you had RTSes for RT-11, RSX, BASIC+, >> > TECO, DCL and some other stuff. Some RTSes were also KBMs (keyboard >> > monitors), meaning you could "switch" to them, and get an interactive >> > command line interpreter with that. But the RTS mostly implemented >> > system calls. However, there were RTSes which didn't implement any >> > system calls, and only gave you the basic calls RSTS/E itself >> > provided, and mostly focused on being a KBM, such as DCL. > > I apologize for my lack of familiarity with the terminology. Your > description > is what I was attempting to say. :-) > Actually, my testing seems to show that RSTS/E supports being able to > run RT-11 programs even if the RT-11 RTS is not activated. For example: > RUN MACRO > is possible if the RTS is normal RSTS/E or RT-11. This might be based > on the > file type. RSTS/E may determine that MACRO.SAV is an RT-11 program and > support the RT-11 EMT requests. Or RSTS/E may support naked RT-11 EMT > requests from any program. That is something I should test. No, you are confusing things, and making wild guesses. What do you mean by "activated"? There is no activation. If an RTS is installed, it will always be used for programs that are marked as requiring that RTS. This is an "attribute" of a file. Whenever that file is run, it is run under the indicated RTS. If you try to run a program that requires an RTS that don't exist I would suspect that you'll get an error. Also, if you type "RUN MACRO", how do you know that you are even running the RT-11 version? RSTS/E normally also have an RSX RTS available, and an MACRO.TSK, which is MACRO-11 running under the RSX RTS. There is no RSTS/E RTS, by the way. >> > All exeutable files have an RTS associated with it, and when the >> > program is run, it is run under that RTS, which then handles all EMTs >> > and so on when the program executes them. > > Does the file type trigger the use of that RTS? Unless my memory have totally rotted away, the answer is no. The RTS associated with a file is an attribute of the file, just like file protection. There is a switch to PIP that you can use to check, and set, the RTS. That said, all RTS have a default file extension as well, and I think that is used to search for runnable files if you just type "RUN MACRO" for example. > I do have a question. With V7 of RSTS/E, the FIT program is able to > copy files from a drive with an RT-11 file structure (such as an RX02) > to the RSTS/E file structure. My initial testing with V10.1 of RSTS/E > shows that (at the very least the distribution which I am using) does not > have a FIT program. Is there some other method of making a copy of > a file on an RX02 with an RT-11 file structure to a device with a RSTS/E > file structure? Either FIT, or some "new" program that does the same thing, I'd guess. I'm no expert on RSTS/E, and my experience is old. I mostly ran RSTS/E between V7.1 and V9.0, with the majority of my time in the V7-V8 timeframe. > Also, is it possible to run an RT-11 program under a DEBUG mode? It > would be much easier to check out the code if that is possible. At the > moment, I can check most of the code under RT-11. However, the > portion which runs in a different manner under RSTS/E as opposed to > RT-11 since RSTS/E does not support all RT-11 EMT requests in the > same manner as RT-11. What do you mean by "debug" mode??? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

15 years, 11 months

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