- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by drb＠msu.edu

I'm writing a little program in H316 assembler, running it in simh (3.8-1). The usual idiom for returning from a subroutine seems to be an indirect jump through a pointer. But my indirect jump halts at the location where the pointer is stored. The code looks something like this: ... >from jst subr call the subroutine ... subr dac ** ... do some stuff jmp* subr The jst is supposed to drop the address of from+1 into location subr, and execution continues at subr+1. The indirect jmp (jmp*) should be the return, getting the target address >from location subr. There are even examples in some of the H316 docs showing this kind of thing. Best I can tell, the assembled code has all the correct bits set -- the indirect bit is the high order bit in the word, and is set, opcode looks correct, etc. The correct target address is indeed stored at subr by the jst. Obviously this isn't re-entrant, etc. Don't care about that at this point. What am I doing wrong? Thanks, De

15 years, 8 months

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simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 10/25/10 00:46, Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> wrote: > I have a low-level pdp-11 question... > > I'm confused about writing to the PSW on cpu's which support user& > supervisor mode. My > read of the docs is that in user mode you should not be able to write > the "mode" bits of the PSW. > > (or, perhaps more accurately, you should not be able to*clear* any mode > bits from user space) > > I have a little diagnostic which doesn't work as I though it should > under simh and I thought I'd > ask what others think... > > Basically, simh allows code running in "user mode" to write the PSW even > when (I claim) it > should not. I have not tried this on a real 11/44 or 11/34 yet, but I > can/will. > > Should simh allow this? In the test blow the "clr @#PSW" is successful > when run > on simh and I think it should basically be a nop... > > (which begs another question - should it be a nop? or a exception?) > > A side question might be "the psw is not protected from writes, except > by using > the mmu" - is this true on all models? or just some? The 11/40 manual > implies > that it*is* protected. But 11/73 docs seem to say the opposite and > imply using the mmu. > > diagnostic follows: > > .TITLE test17 > .ASECT > PSW=177776 ;processor status word > .=34 > .word 200 > .word 0007 > .=200 > mov #200, r5 ;we should be in kernel mode here > rti > .=500 > clr @#PSW ;kernel mode > mov #500,sp ;sp=500 in kernel mode > mov #140000,@#PSW ;user mode > mov #700,sp ;sp=700 in user mode > trap 377 ;should move us to kernel mode > nop > clr @#PSW ;back to kernel mode > nop > halt > > The PSW, when regarded as a memory location, is not protected at all. How could it be? The PSW is protected, when we talk about the MFPS/MTPS instructions, as well as the RETI/RETN. For an operating system, you normally protect the whole I/O page from user access, since not only the PSW is in there, but all kind of stuff that you do not want user programs to get access to. Data in the I/O page follows the same rules as any other memory essentially. If you have write access to it, you can write to those locations. The underlying device responding to those writes have no idea what the PSW is, and cannot enforce any protection. The special case of the PSW itself is perhaps "odd" since it actually do know what the PSW is (obviously) but it still follows the same rules as all other devices. Johnny

15 years, 8 months

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Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc)

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > On 23 Oct 2010 at 21:03, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> That is a great find. It even includes the first machine I ever wrote >> a program for, the IBM 7094 (in Fortran IV using the Purdue University >> Fast Fortran Translator). > > I don't know if I'd confess to using PUFFT :). ISTR that you could > just about dump a deck of cards scavenged from the trash into it and > get a program that ran. > > Was that before they got the CDC 6500? I know at one point they had > a pair of 7094s working as I/O processors and PUFFT > compilers/interpreters. And what, a 1401? This was in England in 1969. I was at Dartford Grammar school and for a general studies course we took a bus to Erith Tech one afternoon a week where there were two keypunches and a lecturer who taught us programming in Fortran IV. We punched our cards and a courier took them to Imperial College (of Mines) which is part of the University of London. They were run through the 7094 which ran PUFFT through IBJOB. The following week we would get our cards back with a listing of the program and the results. My first program (calculating Pi) worked first time and I was hooked. Most times the listings would have errors and we'd have to wait another week for our next try. I remember once the compiler printing out "FORMAT misspelled" and continuing the compilation but otherwise I don't think it was particularly user friendly. I was told at the time the 7094 had two separate offline peripheral processors, one which copied cards to tape which was then switched to the 7094 as input and another which took the 7094's output tape and printed it to listing paper. I guess the operators had the job of putting the input cards and output listings together. I happened to live about a mile from the lecturer (Tony Newey) and walking to his house one foggy night, collecting the listings for all the chap from Dartford (which was a single sex school, there being a separate Dartford Grammar school for girls which my elder sister went to). Anyway I remember dividing up the thick listing into ones for all the separate pupils and handing them out the next day so we could all consider what we wanted to change for a while before going back to Erith. One of my friends had a Reliant three wheeler (which you could drive at 16) and we drove over at lunch time once or twice to amend our card decks mid week and resubmit them. Later another friend had a mini and after he overtook going over the crest of a hill I asked what would have happened if someone else was doing the same thing coming the other way. No reply. He was a great mathematician and later worked for Lloyds of London as an insurance risk assessor. He once scored 101% in a maths exam which rather made a mockery of the math's teachers marking scheme. Anyway I don't suppose he was ever so stupid again. The 7094 was taken offline for several months so engineers could replace every single electrolytic capacitor and we were allowed to use the University's main CDC6600 which later got replaced with a 7600. After leaving school I was turned down by Imperial College because I could not pass English Language 'O' level but was accepted by Queen Mary College and again used the 7600 but this time via the college's ICL1905E and later 1904S. Most work was done on the ICL mainframes but it did not support a couple of languages the 7600 did. We also had a CDC 1700 which was used to teach us assembly language. My Fortran experience was not directly helpful at QMC because they taught us Algol 60 in our first six months and most of the rest was maths (cheaper to teach) though I did show one of our lecturers my Fortran knowledge was better than his and earned me a summer holiday job in the college's own programming department doing things like testing the NAG (Nottingham Algorithms Group) library on the 1900s. One evening system time was due to start and I was still running things on the multi access system. As I was staff they did not throw me off but asked if I could finish earlier if they threw all the other users off and stopped the batch stream. I said I didn't know. They said it couldn't hurt and did so. WOW I never knew computers so could be so fast! I was again hooked after doing half an hours work in a minute or two, some of which time was the computer waiting for me to type something. First time I'd ever had a computer waiting for me, of course now its what computers do 99% of the time but back then it was unusual. A few years back in history, before multi access systems, it had been common but that was not my experience.

15 years, 8 months

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S-100 PIC/RTC boards available

by lynchaj＠yahoo.com

Hi! I have some S-100 PIC/RTC boards left over from an S-100 project. They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere for the PCB only. The boards are priority interrupt controller (i8259) and a MM58167 real time clock. There are diagnostics LEDs, configuration jumpers and switches, and battery backup. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PIC <http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PIC&RTC%20Board/My%20PIC%20Boa rd.htm> &RTC%20Board/My%20PIC%20Board.htm These boards will support CP/M-80 but primarily intended for the S-100 x86 boards (CP/M-86 and FreeDOS) slated for next year. Please contact me if interested. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS there are 11 types of S-100 boards completed (done or available) and another four more in development.

15 years, 8 months

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IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire)

by ceby2＠csc.com

Speaking of S/390s I wondered if anyone could help me to donate my to the NMOC at Bletchley Park. The model number escapes me, but it's an early air-cooled s/390 from around 1990-1992. NMOC don't currently have this architecture in the collection, so are receptive to the donation. However there's the small matter of getting it there from Hampshire. My MG isn't up to lugging to cabinets worth of disk and IO chassis. The other issue is that I have almost no cabling. I have the cabling for the system controller workstation, but all of the bus and tag cabling used for this model is missing. So for the moment, it sits in both the spare bedroom and the garage. Anyone clearing out the under floor of their data centers in southern England? And anyone with a strong back and and white van? Thanks, Colin Eby |------------> | From: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |cctalk-request at classiccmp.org | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | To: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |cctalk at classiccmp.org | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Date: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |24/10/2010 23:56 | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Subject: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 52 | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire) 2. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire) 3. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Patrick Finnegan) 4. Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] (Tony Duell) 5. simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode? (Brad Parker) 6. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (St?phane Tsacas) 7. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Sridhar Ayengar) 8. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (Dave McGuire) 9. Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) (Nick Allen) 10. FS: 70's Vintage Computer Magazines (Byte, Kilobaud, Dr Dobb's) & Sun-2, Sun 100U Docs (Nick Allen) 11. Re: the new manx is live (Torfinn Ingolfsen) 12. Re: IBM S/390 on ebay (jim s) 13. RE: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) (Tom Gardner) 14. Re: Apple IIa (Martin Goldberg) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:18:49 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4CC46A79.3090101 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/24/10 12:20 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > It will be interesting to see if it sells ... They always do. Have you guys really not seen recent IBM mainframes sell on eBay before? They come up (and sell) maybe half a dozen times per year. I personally have two sitting here, and I'm not even a hardcore mainframer. > It may have just become collectible and be tracked as the first of its kind outside IBM's control to be sold as > running hardware on eBay. One never knows what will make an IBMcollectable :) Certainly not the first, no. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:18:53 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4CC46A7D.2060903 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/24/10 12:14 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Presumably they haven't "gone after people" for running Linux on > Hercules, so it seems unlikely that they would go after someone for > running Linux on a z900. We can't presume to know what an eBay buyer > would run on it. You still need the LIC to run Linux, and the LIC is what's tightly controlled. One can get operating systems pretty easily, but not LIC images. >> they will definitely go after someone with real hardware. Especially a >> current machine. This is not some ancient retiree we are discussing, >> this is a z900 that you can still buy brand new. > > I'll admit that I'm not very expert on such things, so I could be > mistaken, but this looks to be an 8 year old model to me, not one that > "you can still buy new". The z900 was withdrawn from marketing three or four years ago, which makes them pretty much "last years' model" in the mainframe world. They're still supported. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:25:29 -0400 From: Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <201010241425.30204.pat at computer-refuge.org> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" On Sunday, October 24, 2010, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas <stephane.tsacas at gmail.com> wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 > > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658> > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP39 > > 0G1.html > > Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal > for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the > LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the > original purchaser and only on the specific machine and > configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other > party is unlicensed and illegal. This isn't true at all. The last time I read the license agreement that popped up booting my S/390's service element, it required you to transfer the LIC with the machine. It certainly didn't allow you to keep the LIC if you got rid of the machine, nor did it require you to destroy the copy of the LIC if you transferred the machine to someone else. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:22:50 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <m1PA5Df-000J3xC at p850ug1> Content-Type: text/plain > > On Sat, 23 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Sure, but that's then 4 levels. I ahve no problem extending the > > heirarchical system to as many levels as are necessary, my query is why > > it's noramlly limitied to 3. Why not just have as many levels as are needed. > > A properly designed system should be extensible to as many levels as are > needed. That's _exactly_ my point. Having atbitrary limits may cause problems later on. > > > And why recorsd the year of acquisition? What importance is that? Why not > > just a number for each artefact starting at 1? > > It is unlikely that you nor I would care much about the year of > acquisition. But the bean-counters care. Ah no, you misnderstood me... Presumanbly there is a database of the artefacts in the museum, indexed by the indentification numbers. That database includes more details about the particular object, things like (I would hope), options, serial number (s), version, etc. All we've been discussing. I see no reason why the date of acquisition (full date, not just the year), source (maybe 'anonymous donor' :-)), and the like should not be stored there as well. It's far better to store too much information than too little. But what I am wondering is why the year of acquisition should be a field in the indentifier. > Not "exclusive", but a different attitude about what is/isn't important. > > If you end up with a common/stock item that was once owned by a celebrity, > you could sell it on eBay to one of those provenance collectors, and buy > several that were not celebrity owned. As an aside, maybe in principle, but not always in practice... Suppose I did have an HP9820 (say) that had been used for some famous bit of work. Yes, I could sell it for more than the normal 'going rate' for such a machine. But could I be sure ot be able to buy another one? There's not an infinite supply of old computers, and some people may well not sell _at any price_. You could offer me a million pounds/dollars for a machine in my collection and I would turn you down. And I'll bet there are others like me. > > > > > The depth of cataloging would depend on the subjective issue of just how > > > interesting/important that item is. > > How can you possibly know how interesting/importantsomethign will later > > turn out to be? > > It is a subjective evaluation. One more reason that proper cataloging > requires expertise. Agreed... I feel you should err on the side of recording too much information. It's easy to ignroe it later ;-) > > I'm not sure that I would want to live in a world where DELLs became the > most interesting/important computers for collecting. Nor would I, and for the record I don't consider DELLs or other PC clones to be the machines I want to collect. That doesn't mean I think that nobody should collect them. Or that the PC clone has not had a very significant impact on computing (not necessarily for the better :-)). -tony ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:33:42 -0400 From: Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> Subject: simh & hardware - pdp-11 psw in supervisor mode? To: General at heeltoe.com, "Discussion at heeltoe.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, "simh at trailing-edge.com" <simh at trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4CC47C06.5020000 at heeltoe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I have a low-level pdp-11 question... I'm confused about writing to the PSW on cpu's which support user & supervisor mode. My read of the docs is that in user mode you should not be able to write the "mode" bits of the PSW. (or, perhaps more accurately, you should not be able to *clear* any mode bits from user space) I have a little diagnostic which doesn't work as I though it should under simh and I thought I'd ask what others think... Basically, simh allows code running in "user mode" to write the PSW even when (I claim) it should not. I have not tried this on a real 11/44 or 11/34 yet, but I can/will. Should simh allow this? In the test blow the "clr @#PSW" is successful when run on simh and I think it should basically be a nop... (which begs another question - should it be a nop? or a exception?) A side question might be "the psw is not protected from writes, except by using the mmu" - is this true on all models? or just some? The 11/40 manual implies that it *is* protected. But 11/73 docs seem to say the opposite and imply using the mmu. diagnostic follows: .TITLE test17 .ASECT PSW=177776 ;processor status word .=34 .word 200 .word 0007 .=200 mov #200, r5 ;we should be in kernel mode here rti .=500 clr @#PSW ;kernel mode mov #500,sp ;sp=500 in kernel mode mov #140000,@#PSW ;user mode mov #700,sp ;sp=700 in user mode trap 377 ;should move us to kernel mode nop clr @#PSW ;back to kernel mode nop halt ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 20:47:49 +0200 From: St?phane Tsacas <stephane.tsacas at gmail.com> Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <AANLkTinCtUkbC4gfnNad6jJ4g6-++65wXvvXoHQ7PYO3 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 15:06, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 10/24/10 8:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 >> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658> >> > > That's a (badly abused) z900, a 64-bit z/Series machine, nowhere near > classiccmp material, but...I'm drooling all over my lap here. > > See also http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/3304… ;-) -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:45:39 -0400 From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4CC48CE3.7050508 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed St?phane Tsacas wrote: > See also > http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/3304… > ;-) *boioioioioioioing!!* Peace... Sridhar ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:49:27 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4CC48DC7.9070705 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/24/10 3:45 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > St?phane Tsacas wrote: >> See also >> http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-DEC-AlphaServer-GS320-Scalable-Server-Complete-/3304… >> >> ;-) > > *boioioioioioioing!!* Right there with you on that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:11:02 -0500 From: Nick Allen <nick.allen at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation Alto Restoration) To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4CC1E1C6.9050709 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sure, I will upload the photos shortly. Did you have to build a custom cable/adapter from Diablo to the Parallel port on the PC? Did you use any a custom drive, utility, os on the PC side? Just looking to validate somehow that my Diablo Drive is fully functioning, and this direction seems to be the best bet until I get the Alto working. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:35:54 -0500 From: Nick Allen <nick.allen at comcast.net> Subject: FS: 70's Vintage Computer Magazines (Byte, Kilobaud, Dr Dobb's) & Sun-2, Sun 100U Docs To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4CC23BFA.3050409 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Byte magazines pretty much the complete 1975-1977 years! Kilobaud magazines: Year 1977 Dr Dobb's: Years 1977-79 Sun-2 technical overview documentation Sun 100u Optical Mouse Docs Mark 8 Minicomputer build plans from Radio Electronics magazine: Here is the link to my seller profile (will display all current auctions): http://shop.ebay.com/sdinet/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1 Trying to clear room in the condo, and raise funds to repair the Alto/IMSAIs/Altairs! ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 04:09:42 +0200 From: Torfinn Ingolfsen <tingox at gmail.com> Subject: Re: the new manx is live To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <AANLkTimoQDE2XM84piiJ1QB9Lyi8LyM=3qCcKC-02NL8 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > > > > In article <AANLkTikFFFKKo=6Ba=6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp +WO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com> > <6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%252BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com> > > > > >, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen <tingox at gmail.com> writes: > > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > > > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted on the same group of > > machines that serves this mailing list and several other classic > > computing sites graciously hosted by Jay. > Seems there are some network problems somewhere between me and manx. I can't rerach bitsavers.org either: tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ ping bitsavers.org PING bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17) 56(84) bytes of data. >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=50 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=53 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=54 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=55 Packet filtered >From host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) icmp_seq=56 Packet filtered ^C --- bitsavers.org ping statistics --- 91 packets transmitted, 0 received, +5 errors, 100% packet loss, time 90127ms tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ traceroute bitsavers.org traceroute to bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets 1 * * * 2 * * * 3 * * * 4 * * * 5 * * * 6 * * * 7 * * * 8 * * * 9 * * * 10 * * * 11 * * * 12 * * * 13 * * * 14 * * * 15 * * * 16 * * * 17 * * * 18 * * * 19 * * * 20 * * * 21 * * * 22 * * * 23 * * * 24 * * * 25 * * * 26 * * * 27 * * * 28 * * * 29 * * * 30 * * * tingo at kg-u35jc:~$ >from my gateway / firewall: tingo at kg-omni1$ traceroute bitsavers.org traceroute to bitsavers.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 46.484 ms 98.823 ms 99.785 ms 2 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 14.068 ms 14.298 ms 13.788 ms 3 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 14.536 ms 15.015 ms 14.369 ms 4 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 14.258 ms 18.107 ms 14.183 ms 5 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 14.555 ms 14.674 ms 14.876 ms 6 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 27.834 ms 28.522 ms 27.609 ms 7 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 33.525 ms 33.542 ms 33.596 ms 8 213.248.65.121 (213.248.65.121) 43.259 ms 43.400 ms ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.117) 42.396 ms 9 ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.121) 40.698 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.105) 43.963 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (80.91.246.121) 40.340 ms 10 cogent-ic-140549-ffm-b12.c.telia.net (213.248.92.142) 43.399 ms 43.176 ms 42.901 ms 11 te0-1-0-7.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.49.162) 39.443 ms te0-2-0-6.ccr21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.237) 134.206 ms te0-1-0-7.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.49.162) 40.854 ms 12 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 133.907 ms te0-1-0-4.ccr21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.190) 146.549 ms 146.957 ms 13 te0-0-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.154) 144.096 ms 146.334 ms 145.755 ms 14 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 148.954 ms 149.120 ms 149.191 ms 15 vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) 159.651 ms 159.613 ms 157.883 ms 16 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 151.954 ms 153.009 ms 177.673 ms 17 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 152.974 ms 153.659 ms 153.212 ms 18 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 152.006 ms 151.510 ms 150.509 ms 19 * * * 20 * * * 21 * * * 22 * * * 23 * * * 24 * * * 25 * * * 26 * * * 27 * * * 28 * * * 29 * * * 30 * * * 31 * * * 32 * * * 33 * * * 34 * * * 35 * * * 36 * * * 37 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 667.077 ms !X * 38 * * * 39 * * * 40 * * * 41 * * * 42 * * * 43 * * * 44 * * * 45 * * * 46 * * * 47 * * * 48 * * * 49 * * * 50 * * * 51 * * * 52 * * * 53 * * * 54 * * * 55 * * * 56 * * * 57 * * * 58 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 152.356 ms !X * 59 * * * 60 * * * 61 * * * 62 * * * 63 * * * 64 * * * tingo at kg-omni1$ -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:32:24 -0700 From: jim s <jws at jwsss.com> Subject: Re: IBM S/390 on ebay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4CC489C8.3020702 at jwsss.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed The LIC for the r/390's and the pc/390's was at one time freely downloadable. It is the OS Licensed material that is not transferable to another entity. The firmware is not a problem. Most of the peripherals have LIC code and you only need to call IBM to get copies if you supply the model number. I have two 3174's that have "LIC" and IBM's support number supplied the code at IBM's cost to fix me up. I have to say that I was impressed with that. I also ordered 3290 support as well as the latest rev of the Token Ring support on 2mb floppies. I also believe that the firmware for the 9370's is not a problem to transfer, just the OS. Linux is not a problem. I will ask a friend who has two of these running what if any issues he has, as he may have transferred a license I don't know about for one of the smaller 390's he has. Based on his use, I would almost (but for that detail) say there is no problem as long as you have the hardware. On 10/24/2010 11:25 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday, October 24, 2010, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> On Oct 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, St?phane Tsacas > <stephane.tsacas at gmail.com> wrote: >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 >>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658> >>> http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP39 >>> 0G1.html >> Do be advised that if you should obtain one of these, it is illegal >> for you to operate it in any way. The microcode, which IBM calls the >> LIC or Licensed Internal Code, is licensed only for the use of the >> original purchaser and only on the specific machine and >> configuration as IBM delivered it. Any other usage by any other >> party is unlicensed and illegal. > This isn't true at all. The last time I read the license agreement that > popped up booting my S/390's service element, it required you to > transfer the LIC with the machine. It certainly didn't allow you to > keep the LIC if you got rid of the machine, nor did it require you to > destroy the copy of the LIC if you transferred the machine to someone > else. > > Pat ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:10:21 -0700 From: "Tom Gardner" <thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net> Subject: RE: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <EE3A6EC5DBF7493E9E39C8CFA9759060 at tegp4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote: >Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. >A random access storage is defined by the fact that addressing >any arbitrary cell needs the same time. . That may be today's definition but if you check the literature of the 50's and 60's I am sure u will find drums (along with Williams Tubes, etc) categorized as random access devices. Even the first disk drive was the IBM RAMAC 350 - as in Random Access Memory! I think IBM invented the term Direct Access Storage in the 1960s to distinguish devices whose assess time was short but variable; that is, in between core (random) and tape (sequential). So the historical definition may have been . needs essentially the same time. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] > On Behalf Of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:14 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46 > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers (William Donzelli) > 2. RE: the new manx is live (Rob Jarratt) > 3. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Ian King) > 4. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (MikeS) > 5. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Dan Williams) > 6. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Al Kossow) > 7. Re: the new manx is live (Dan Roganti) > 8. Re: the new manx is live (Richard) > 9. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Chuck Guzis) > 10. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Rich Alderson) > 11. Re: HTL (Charles Dickman) > 12. Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Al Kossow) > 13. Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey) > 14. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Chuck Guzis) > 15. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Pontus Pihlgren) > 16. Re: the new manx is live (Pontus Pihlgren) > 17. Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation > Alto Restoration) (Nick Allen) > 18. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Charlie Carothers) > 19. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (r.stricklin) > 20. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Jochen Kunz) > 21. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Christian Corti) > 22. RE: Oldest original working proper computer (stored program > etc) (Roger Holmes) > 23. Re: lilith computer by wikipedia (Simon Fryer) > 24. Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC > (Operation Alto Restoration) (Al Kossow) > 25. RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey) > 26. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Dave McGuire) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:25:52 -0400 > From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTinUBCts0XvV0RaGH7RcJQab-Vqm5YjBrks8aQP3 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > Will, you've got a 1604; do you know anything about this? > > Not me. > > I probably have enough of the modules that I could build one, however. > > -- > Will > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:28:17 +0100 > From: "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> > Subject: RE: the new manx is live > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Only'" > <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <015601cb7166$e49b58a0$add209e0$(a)ntlworld.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Sent: 21 October 2010 08:10 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: <http://manx.classiccmp.org > > > > > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > > Details: > > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org traceroute to > classiccmp.org > > (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets > > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms > 14.051 > ms > > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > > 14.759 ms > > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 > ms > > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 > ms > > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 > ms > > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms > 42.313 ms > > 40.571 ms > > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > > 147.097 ms > > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms > 150.014 > > ms 150.329 ms > > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) > 167.084 > > ms 156.374 ms > > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) > 158.136 > ms > > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 > ms > > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms > 151.915 > > ms > > 20 * * * > > 21 * * * > > 22 * * * > > 23 * * * > > 24 * * * > > 25 * * * > > 26 * * * > > 27 * * * > > 28 * * * > > 29 * * * > > 30 * * * > > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > > 32 * * * > > 33 * * * > > 34 * * * > > 35 * * * > > 36 * * * > > 37 * * * > > 38 * * * > > 39 * * * > > 40 * * * > > 41 * * * > > 42 * * * > > 43 * * * > > 44 * * * > > 45 * * * > > 46 * * * > > 47 * * * > > 48 * * * > > 49 * * * > > 50 * * * > > 51 * * * > > 52 * * * > > 53 * * * > > 54 * * * > > 55 * * * > > 56 * * * > > 57 * * * > > 58 * * * > > 59 * * * > > 60 * * * > > 61 * * * > > 62 * * * > > 63 * * * > > 64 * * * > > root at kg-quiet# > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Oslo, Norway > > Works OK for me, here is my tracert: > > 1 8 ms 3 ms <1 ms JUPITER [192.168.0.1] > 2 42 ms 22 ms 26 ms 10.236.80.1 > 3 29 ms 66 ms 9 ms oldh-cam-1a-v100.network.virginmedia.net > [80.5.1 > 65.13] > 4 11 ms 24 ms 12 ms manc-core-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net > [195. > 182.180.37] > 5 25 ms 23 ms 18 ms manc-bb-1a-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.175.1] > 6 22 ms 31 ms 49 ms manc-bb-1b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [62.253 > .187.178] > 7 34 ms 45 ms 35 ms nrth-bb-1a-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.64.21] > 8 30 ms 29 ms 15 ms nrth-tmr-1-ae1-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.159.30] > 9 64 ms 54 ms 43 ms fran-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [62.253. > 185.81] > 10 76 ms 51 ms 54 ms te0-7-0-7.mpd22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com > [130.11 > 7.14.133] > 11 144 ms 138 ms 120 ms te0-2-0-6.mpd22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com > [130.11 > 7.51.230] > 12 138 ms 186 ms 155 ms te0-0-0-4.mpd22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54 > .40.234] > 13 137 ms 145 ms 155 ms te0-1-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54 > .6.178] > 14 184 ms 142 ms 141 ms te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54.27. > 30] > 15 173 ms 146 ms 158 ms > vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com [ > 38.20.47.170] > 16 165 ms 165 ms 180 ms 38.104.146.10 > 17 163 ms 151 ms 146 ms host42.datotel.com [208.82.151.42] > 18 147 ms 151 ms 161 ms stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com [208.82.151.22] > 19 151 ms 140 ms 155 ms host50.datotel.com [208.75.82.50] > 20 146 ms 163 ms 158 ms 209-145-130-66.accessus.net > [209.145.130.66] > 21 147 ms 160 ms 163 ms louie.classiccmp.org [209.145.140.17] > > Regards > > Rob > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:30:07 -0700 > From: Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com> > Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E70BE at 505fuji> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > > > > > > I'd like to hear more about what constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a > > > > n00b in this respect. > > > > > > Just what it sounds like. :-) > > > > > > When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > > > number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > > > which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > > > of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > > > parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > > > piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them > > associated > > > even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > > > and piece numbers. > > > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level > > here? > > > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? > > The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > > > Yes. :-) > > Seriously: we do encounter this situation. When a machine comes in, it is > catalogued as an entity. If we find it necessary to remove a component > from machine A to install in machine B, the component is separately > catalogued with a note in the record stating that it was originally part > of machine A. > > I did this recently with a machine that came as a system containing an > RK05 drive identified as non-functional. We used the RK8-E from that > machine with another PDP-8/e that also had RK05 drives but no RK8-E. > > That would not be appropriate for a machine that is historically > significant in its particular configuration (for example, our PDP-12), but > that's a hard argument to make for the vast majority of PDP-8/e's. And > given the records we keep, we could restore the accession to its original > configuration if needed. > > It's always a judgement call when one must balance preservation and > restoration. -- Ian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:52:03 -0400 > From: "MikeS" <dm561 at torfree.net> > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <C254F6585ED7493FB620AF800A7CA4F5 at vl420mt> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > > > That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > > 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > > all of the software for it. > ---- > And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI and > the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;-) > > mike > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:53:10 +0100 > From: Dan Williams <williams.dan at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTinSeMiB8LqMnhemRO9Gkq56Ov5wGO6oZfeYtG0P at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 21 October 2010 20:12, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 07:12:03PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > >> I'm sure these will be popular: ?I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive > >> units. They have not been powered up for a few years. They have > >> scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB > >> full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. > >> I also have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I > >> have all the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and > >> other cables for Vaxstation 3100's. > > > > I'm curious about that SCSI->DSSI converter. Is it used to run dssi > > disks on a scsi controller or scsi disks on a dssi controller ? > > > > The latter would be interesting. > > > > Regards, > > Pontus. > > > > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you > can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a > liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. > > Dan > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:08:48 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0B9F0.5000705 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 2:52 PM, MikeS wrote: > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 > > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > > > >> That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > >> 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > >> all of the software for it. > > ---- > > And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI > and the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;- > ) > > > > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a > couple of weeks ago. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:26 -0400 > From: Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTinTe5iYUGDnrsygRs+4XuFwxrGweoN+rEDL6fMg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > > > > In article <AANLkTikFFFKKo=6Ba=6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp+WO- > gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com> > > >, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen <tingox at gmail.com> writes: > > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > > > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted on the same group of > > machines that serves this mailing list and several other classic > > computing sites graciously hosted by Jay. > > > > > > very nice ! > > Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? > SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. > > > =Dan > --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:51:54 -0600 > From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <E1P93zG-0005Jz-CS at shell.xmission.com> > > > In article <AANLkTinTe5iYUGDnrsygRs+4XuFwxrGweoN +rEDL6fMg at mail.gmail.com>, > Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> writes: > > > Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? > > SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. > > This first round was just to reproduce the existing manx. > > Next up is to add users and roles to provide for community additions. > > Contributions of code are welcome. The whole code base has been > developed test-driven and is covered by unit tests. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:02 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4CC06472.12811.1626E31 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 15:08, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a > > couple of weeks ago. > > Well, I've got the CP1600 CPU sitting unused in my hellbox and the > blue manual that gives the schematics for the system. But no > firmware listing for the monitor... > > BTW, did anyone notice that there's a fellow on eBay offering the > INS8900 (PACE in NMOS) NOS CPUs for about $16 the each? > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:06 -0700 > From: Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> > Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCB91 at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > From: Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM > > >> When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > >> number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > >> which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > >> of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > >> parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > >> piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them associated > >> even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > >> and piece numbers. > > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level > here? > > I was trying not to re-use the same word for different levels. > > You donate items to a museum, let's say for simplicity's sake a horse shoe > and a tea service with 4 individually decorated cups and matching saucers, > pot, sugar and creamer. > > You do this in 2010. That's the first field of the accession numbers. > > The two items are the 75th and 76th donated to the museum this year. > These numbers will be the second fields of the respective accession > numbers. > > The horse shoe will receive accession number 2010.075.001, and be marked > as 2010.75.1 > > The tea pot will be 2010.076.001; the sugar, 2010.076.002; the creamer, > 2010.076.003; the first cup-and-saucer pair, 2010.076.004A and > 2010.076.004B; > and so on. The reason for pairing the cup and saucer will be the matching > decoration on each pair. > > You could also simply number each piece individually, but then you lose > information. > > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > I'll start with the last comment. The policy will depend on the purpose > of the museum; no two museums have identical missions, though they may be > very close. A computer museum with a mission of making systems run will > have a very different answer to your question than a museum dealing with > the history of engineering laboratories, where the identical computers > may have been used for very different purposes and be important to the > understanding of how each lab achieved its goals. (Not every museum tries > to please everyone in the know about a topic--there are art museums which > I find deadly dull, and art museums I love to visit over and over, for > example.) Neither policy is "broken", they simply differ. > > Computers are more difficult to catalog than tea services. My personal > preference would be to replicate the manufacturer's bill of materials, > assigning accession numbers at each level down to the circuit boards (or > equivalent, in the case of large valve-based modules, but those don't > crop up in the time frame in which we have specialized). Since the > catalog here was set up by someone else several years before I joined > the team, I have to accommodate myself to what is in place--we're not in > a position to re-catalog several thousand pieces my way. > > We catalog the top-level items (CPU, disk drives, tape drives, printers, > etc.) when they come in. The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier: Loose items, like spare boards, are > catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in larger items only > get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or replacement. > > It takes discipline to catalog pieces when you would really rather be > restoring a system to working condition, but without a catalog, you will > very quickly lose all semblance of provenance, and your reason for being > a museum. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.PDPplanet.org/ > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:09:31 -0400 > From: Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> > Subject: Re: HTL > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTimgJ80NcGDTXXwhRHZFDfbzy_reGtCe65juy5Ax at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:27 PM, William Donzelli > <wdonzelli at gmail.com>wrote: > > > Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips? > > > > Why do you ask? > > I have quite a few HTL chips that I have no use for. > > -chuck > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:23:11 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0E77F.3000005 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 4:04 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier > > But necessary. > > We're discovering that systems were accepted in Boston with no boards in > them, > for example, and there is nothing in the accession record that mentions > that > fact. > > It's absolutely necessary to know if anything that should be in an > accessioned > artifact is missing, and the condition. > > It is a huge amount of work to catalog a collection. > > One of the requirements for museum accreditation is having a significant > portion of your collection cataloged. > > CHM has come a LONG way since I've been here. We have just under 75,000 > items > visible in the on-line data base > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:37:58 -0700 > From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> > Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <SNT129-W286E3F0A65E7EDCFA0F5C3A35E0 at phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > is working as expected. > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > Is this normal? > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > > is working as expected. > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be > automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive > should spin the tape a bit). > > --Chuck > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:13:36 +0200 > From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> > Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <20101022051336.GA15674 at Update.UU.SE> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:53:10PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > > > > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you > > can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a > > liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. > > It would be a lovely thing to have. I live in sweden and unless you find > someone local and wouldn't mind shipping I wouldn't mind paying for it. > Well, it depends on the size of course, how big is this thing? > > /P > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:16:37 +0200 > From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <20101022051637.GB15674 at Update.UU.SE> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is a semiuseful tool: > > http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://manx.classiccmp.org/ > > Good work everyone! Manx is an awesome tool! Many thanks. > > /Pontus > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:10:28AM +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: <http://manx.classiccmp.org > > > > > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > > Details: > > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org > > traceroute to classiccmp.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte > packets > > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms > 14.051 > > ms > > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > > 14.759 ms > > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 > ms > > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 > ms > > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 > ms > > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms > 42.313 > > ms 40.571 ms > > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > > 147.097 ms > > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms > 150.014 > > ms 150.329 ms > > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) > 167.084 > > ms 156.374 ms > > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) > 158.136 > > ms > > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 > ms > > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms > 151.915 > > ms > > 20 * * * > > 21 * * * > > 22 * * * > > 23 * * * > > 24 * * * > > 25 * * * > > 26 * * * > > 27 * * * > > 28 * * * > > 29 * * * > > 30 * * * > > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > > 32 * * * > > 33 * * * > > 34 * * * > > 35 * * * > > 36 * * * > > 37 * * * > > 38 * * * > > 39 * * * > > 40 * * * > > 41 * * * > > 42 * * * > > 43 * * * > > 44 * * * > > 45 * * * > > 46 * * * > > 47 * * * > > 48 * * * > > 49 * * * > > 50 * * * > > 51 * * * > > 52 * * * > > 53 * * * > > 54 * * * > > 55 * * * > > 56 * * * > > 57 * * * > > 58 * * * > > 59 * * * > > 60 * * * > > 61 * * * > > 62 * * * > > 63 * * * > > 64 * * * > > root at kg-quiet# > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Oslo, Norway > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:57:55 -0500 > From: Nick Allen <nick.allen at comcast.net> > Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation > Alto Restoration) > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0E193.9070101 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Al and everyone else, > > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a > PC computer (I assume so, since he uploaded the Alto diskpacks up to > bitsavers.org). Al, Can you (or anyone else) please provide the steps > on how to do so? > > If I can verify the disk drive is working, and the disk packs have valid > data on them, this would be yet another step completed in getting the > alto up and running =) > > Thanks! > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:26:49 -0500 > From: Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4CC10479.2020902 at tx.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/18/2010 6:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> From: Christian Corti<cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> > >> > >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: > >>> don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest > >>> original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which > don't > >>> have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed > in > >>> the late 1950s). > >> > >> Then you've been told wrong. > >> Several examples: > >> - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. > Just > >> yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around > 1954. > >> - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) > >> - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 > (apparently > >> still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) > >> All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in > >> southern Germany. > >> > >>> restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not > counting > >>> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway > I'm > >>> not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it > >>> survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless > it > >>> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. > >> > >> What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and > >> rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. > > > > Thank you, this is just the information I wanted. > > > > Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete? > > > > If it is, then it would be useful to know when the rebuilt version > became operational, though I'm not actually sure the actual month my > machine went live either. > > > > Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program, than my list so far is: > > > > 1958, LGP-30 > > 1958, Zuse Z22 > > Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650 > > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine with > random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and called Immediate > Access Store by ICT). > > > > Thanks again. > > > > I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of several more when I > catch up with my e-mails. > > > > > > > According to this: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/650/650_ch1.html the first > 650 was installed at a customer site in December, 1954. > > I thought this was pretty interesting as well: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_FT1.html > It indicates the 701 was around in 1952. I'm not sure if you want to > limit your list to core memory or not. It appears that the 701's > internal memory consisted of a drum and a CRT. In any case, I need to > waste a lot more time exploring these pages. :-) > Later, > Charlie C. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:23:44 -0700 > From: "r.stricklin" <bear at typewritten.org> > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <D428CDED-9195-48F5-B183-3CE5930788D1 at typewritten.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > It could be, depending on firmware. > > ok > bear > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:53:46 +0200 > From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20101022085346.5c1f9ec0.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:00 +0100 > Roger Holmes <roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk> wrote: > > > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine > > with random access program and data storage. > Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, > just with a bit lattency... > > I don't know how and when the Z22 at the ZKM is operated now. When it > moved to the ZKM there where weekly operating hours with demonstrations > done by the former maintainers of the machine. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) > From: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1010221057001.21272 at linuxserv.home> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, > > just with a bit lattency... > > Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. A random access > storage is defined by the fact that addressing any arbitrary cell needs > the same time. > But the Z22 has a small amount of core memory, too, called > "Schnellspeicher", i.e. "fast memory". > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:11:53 +0100 > From: Roger Holmes <roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk> > Subject: RE: Oldest original working proper computer (stored program > etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <C1C3379B-1DCB-412A-B3C3-43252EF6DC0E at microspot.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > From: "Rod Smallwood" <rodsmallwood at btconnect.com> > > > > > > And we have a winner!! > > > > > > The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948) > > It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube, enough to demonstrate > the > > stored-program principle in working electronics, the first in the world > to > > do so > > > > Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A von Neumann > > ? > > > No, sorry the ORIGINAL Manchester Baby no longer exists. Fellow members of > the Computer Conservation Society have built a replica, correct in almost > every respect but it is only a few years old so does not qualify as oldest > original working stored program computer. I still would like to make a > list of the top ten not just the top one. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:11:20 +1100 > From: Simon Fryer <fryers at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: lilith computer by wikipedia > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTinYKzyw+HKKc3FS9EAFdkrLis0n1NX-KnAO=rcx at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 22/10/2010, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >> Yes, and made the mistake of buying one. Couldn't believe it when it > >> actually arrived. I left an interesting review on Amazon. > > > > Do you happen to remember the title (or have a URL) for this? I wonder > > how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about this? I know > > I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. > > ISBN 10: 1155452186 > ISBN 13: 978-1155452180 > Title: ICL Mainframe Computers: Leo, English Electric Kdf8, Elliott > 803, Ict 1900, ICL 2900 Series, English Electric Kdf9, Ict 1301 > By: Books LLC > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/ICL-Mainframe-Computers-English- > Electric/dp/1155452186/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top > > >> Only upside, it is in a more convenient format for reading while on the > >> toilet. > > > > And for other uses in that location? > > The paper isn't really too soft. It might be okay in an emergency. > > Simon > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > the utility of the final product." > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:27:37 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC > (Operation Alto Restoration) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC19149.5030409 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 5:57 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > > Al and everyone else, > > > > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a PC > computer > > I used a program that runs on the Alto and copies sectors across through a > PC parallel port. > > Could you take pictures of the labels on the packs? I normally supplied a > couple of them > with the machines that came from me, and could tell pretty quickly if they > need to be copied. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:07:24 -0700 > From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> > Subject: RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <SNT129-W644821C0BBBE562CFC5863A35E0 at phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > From: cclist at sydex.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 > > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > > > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > > > is working as expected. > > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > > Is this normal? > > > > My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be > > automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive > > should spin the tape a bit). > > > > --Chuck > > > > > Thanks Chuck > I was afraid of that. That was my recollection > of similar drives. Now I have to find out why the motor > doesn't spin. > As I recalled, if the tape was accidentally loaded > with the end of tape marker off the spool, it would > unspool the hole thing and it would then be a 30 > minute job to spool it back on. > I'll have to look at the motor drive and see what is up. > The fact that I see the head moving gives me confidence > that it is most likely the motor drive circuit. > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. > Dwight > > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:13:34 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4CC19C0E.3060509 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/22/10 10:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. > > 8mm drives were sold with early SPARCstations and SPARCservers as > well, FYI. An 8mm drive will work fine if it's properly set up. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46 > ************************************** ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:40:43 -0500 From: Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Apple IIa To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=XtN6XYQQN-euZX8VmWrQUEA-6OULyovcjqYRX at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > At 9:00 AM -0700 10/23/10, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum". It comes in more than that. There's also the IIe enhanced model (pre-platinum), and you'll also find IIGS upgrade versions out there. Marty End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 52 **************************************

15 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

IBM S/390 on ebay

by stephane.tsacas＠gmail.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658 <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220685200658> http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP390G1.html -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com

15 years, 8 months

10
19
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FS: 70's Vintage Computer Magazines (Byte, Kilobaud, Dr Dobb's) & Sun-2, Sun 100U Docs

by nick.allen＠comcast.net

Byte magazines pretty much the complete 1975-1977 years! Kilobaud magazines: Year 1977 Dr Dobb's: Years 1977-79 Sun-2 technical overview documentation Sun 100u Optical Mouse Docs Mark 8 Minicomputer build plans from Radio Electronics magazine: Here is the link to my seller profile (will display all current auctions): http://shop.ebay.com/sdinet/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1 Trying to clear room in the condo, and raise funds to repair the Alto/IMSAIs/Altairs!

15 years, 8 months

2
1
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Working IMSAI 8080 system on the VCGM

by classiccmp＠vintage-computer.com

I just posted a nice, working IMSAI 8080 on the VCGM (Item 108335) There is, as always, lots of other stuff to look at there. Cheers! -- ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace

15 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

Apple IIa

by wgungfu＠gmail.com

> At 9:00 AM -0700 10/23/10, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >The IIe comes in two flavors - beige and "platinum". It comes in more than that. There's also the IIe enhanced model (pre-platinum), and you'll also find IIGS upgrade versions out there. Marty

15 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)

by nick.allen＠comcast.net

Well, I thought I was the only one to have a Xerox Alto, appears there is another one in Chicago and it was just put on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320602942545&ssPageName=… Looks identical to mine (File Server, Xlto II XM), and having the same boot issues I am having (CRT warming up, but no image). Will be interesting to see what it goes for (as there is no reserve), I just wish I could get the gentlemen selling it to assist me in getting mine repaired and working (as he mentions he has experience working on these).

15 years, 8 months

32
115
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AS/400e 9401-150 server still needs a home - metro west Boston, MA

by jtp＠chinalake.com

Why yes, this is a repost from a few months ago. A few contacts, but no one has come through. I will recycle it in a week if there is no firm commitment to collect--gotta go. ------------------------------ Not really classic in this model, however: I have an AS/400e 9401-150 server and associated hardwarethat needs a new home. I obtained it last year and do not have the bandwidth to do anything with it. I have not powered the server up, but I was told itworks. The front appears to have taken a hit in thelower left (dented grate behind and screw mountsnapped--reglued) and the face shows some scrapes. One thin horizontal molding (separator) is broken, and can be glued. Theback half-round cover is missing. I believe the previous owner obtained it 2nd hand for dev work. 2-32 meg memmodules, 2-4.x gig drives (59H7001) se scsi, CD, QIC 4/8 DL SLR5 tape drive, 90H9241 twinax card. IBM 3477 InfoWindow terminal w/ 122 key kb. Found that thepower button needs to be pressed down a bit when released (for ON) to have it catch. IBM 3197 terminal sans keyboard--never got it. Term powers up with 0A00 and 'k' on the bottom center. Two lexmark 4028 AS1 laser printers. I have a note onone from last year that the pickup roller is toast.The other says OK, but I will check again. Box of cables. Mostly T adapters or 9 and 15 pinD-subs, one twinax cable, one MAU (really), two terms, one8-port fan-out (21F5093), and second 8-port fanout (mod# ?),plus a few baluns and odd pieces. There are plenty ofTs, but you will probably need more cable to hook up more than one or two devices. A few misc docs. CD/Floppies: V4 OS, Client Access for 95/NT, LanStreamer, PCI diags Images:www.flickr.com/photos/31439100 at N05/sets/72157624713623016/ I don't want to part it out if I can help it--goes as onegroup. I'll keep the printer with the toasted roller forparts if it isn't wanted. Metro-west Boston, MA.Pick-up, or I'll deliver inside the 495 area on myschedule. I will store for a while, if you are really going to collect it, or relay it. --Jimjtp at chinalake.com

15 years, 8 months

1
0
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SGI Origin2000

by spedraja＠ono.com

Not mine, but I should like. But sadly, I can't take charge of this monster now. Hope that someone could approach it better. http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250712182525&ssPageName=S… -- Sergio http://es.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja

15 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

Moving House - Need to downsize

by williams.dan＠gmail.com

Hi, I am moving to a smaller place and need to off-load some bits I am not going to have space for. An Octane (works but case in a bad shape) dual processor sse graphics it had 1gb of memory but some was bad, I think it's 768mb A Sun Blade 2000 Dual processors with 1gb memory and 18gb drive. 2 rack mount sparc machines with 2xmachines in each unit (Non sun) I think they are 500mhz and 1gb memory A Dell Itanium rack mount machine which won't run VMS. I Vax 4000/90 with a non working PSU A non working ex-millitary oscilloscope I need to check but a number of vt220 terminals with keyboards. I'm sure these will be popular: I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive units. They have not been powered up for a few years. They have scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. I also have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I have all the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and other cables for Vaxstation 3100's. I am based in Central London and all of the machines are too heavy for me to ship. But let me know I'm sure we can work something out. These are available for free, but as at the moment the only machines I am keeping (or allowed to keep) are my RM machines I am interested in any cables software and monitors for 380Z, 480Z and early PC's I am going to be quite busy all over the weekend, so I may not get a chance to reply until monday. Dan

15 years, 8 months

4
6
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8008 undocumented opcodes?

by jonnosan＠gmail.com

There are a couple of gaps in the documented opcodes for the 8008, namely: 0x22, 0x2a, 0x32,0x38,0x39,0x3a Is the behavior of the 8008 CPU when executing any of these bytes described anywhere?

15 years, 8 months

1
0
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Specific maindec for the PDP-8/L ?

by jdr_use＠bluewin.ch

There are a lot of maindec ppt images on the net, but I fail to find 8/L specific ones. Or could I just use the 8/I maindec to check out the 8/l core stack, since they share the same stack ? Jos

15 years, 8 months

2
1
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Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc)

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

> From: Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> > According to this: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/650/650_ch1.html the first > 650 was installed at a customer site in December, 1954. Indeed but when was the machine which is working first? The 'Mini' car was first sold in 1959 but some are older than others, indeed a car of the same name is still in production. I'm now after the oldest ten working stored program computers. I'd also be interested in the oldest working stored program computers with core memory. Thank you very much for your efforts. > I thought this was pretty interesting as well: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_FT1.html > It indicates the 701 was around in 1952. I'm not sure if you want to > limit your list to core memory or not. It appears that the 701's > internal memory consisted of a drum and a CRT. In any case, I need to > waste a lot more time exploring these pages. :-) > Later, > Charlie C. That is a great find. It even includes the first machine I ever wrote a program for, the IBM 7094 (in Fortran IV using the Purdue University Fast Fortran Translator). I too will have to crawl around the tree and hopefully learn more about the early IBM machines.

15 years, 8 months

2
1
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Apple IIa

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

A friend has found that he has an Apple IIa with two Apple disk drives. I know nothing about Apple machines and would like to tell him if this is something relatively rare or still quite common. I know I asked a similar question a while ago for another friend but I have been unable to find the email in the archives so I don't know if I am asking about the same model again this time. Any information appreciated Thanks Rob

15 years, 8 months

7
15
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lilith computer by wikipedia

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

> From: Simon Fryer <fryers at gmail.com> >>> Yes, and made the mistake of buying one. Couldn't believe it when it >>> actually arrived. I left an interesting review on Amazon. >> >> Do you happen to remember the title (or have a URL) for this? I wonder >> how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about this? I know >> I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. > > ISBN 10: 1155452186 > ISBN 13: 978-1155452180 > Title: ICL Mainframe Computers: Leo, English Electric Kdf8, Elliott > 803, Ict 1900, ICL 2900 Series, English Electric Kdf9, Ict 1301 > By: Books LLC > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/ICL-Mainframe-Computers-English-Electric/dp/1155452… Thank you very much for the warning. I would have been very annoyed if I bought it and discovered the only information on the 1301 was mainly what I had written myself on Wikipedia. I knew it had been copied onto other web site but at least they were free. Every now and again I do a search on ICT 1301 and the number of hits keeps expanding. A few real gems get added sometimes and a lot of stuff about Info & Comms Technology (hence ICT) which happens to have 1301 on the page but almost every time there is a new web site or two with yet another copy of my words. Why do they bother?

15 years, 8 months

1
0
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XTIDE rom and board, Andrew?

by lynchaj＠yahoo.com

http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-October/292868.html XTIDE rom and board, Andrew? Randy Dawson rdawson16 at hotmail.com <mailto:cctalk%40classiccmp.org?Subject=Re%3A%20XTIDE%20rom%20and%20board%2C %20Andrew%3F&In-Reply-To=%3CBLU145-W26C1070A829339C22A9797BA5F0%40phx.gbl%3E > Sat Oct 23 01:44:37 CDT 2010 * Previous message: viper <http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-October/292861.html> 2150 drives * Messages sorted by: [ <http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-October/date.html#292868> date ] [ <http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-October/thread.html#292868> thread ] [ <http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-October/subject.html#292868> subject ] [ <http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-October/author.html#292868> author ] _____ Hi Gang, I just got a Compaq lugable, and it seems that the XT IDE board is the next thing to add. Anybody (Andrew Lynch?) have some blank boards and the rom, or a completed board, cable, drive they what to sell? Thanks, Randy -----REPLY----- Hi Randy! Thanks! Yes I have plenty of the XT-IDE PCBs left. They are $12 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your XT-IDE PCB right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I have a small number of S-100 PIC/RTC boards with Intel 8259 Programmable Interrupt Controller (or equivalent) and MM58167A RTC left over >from a recent project. If anyone wants some please contact me. Here is a description with video of the board in action: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PIC&RTC%20Board/My%20PIC%20Boar d.htm

15 years, 8 months

1
0
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XTIDE rom and board, Andrew?

by rdawson16＠hotmail.com

Hi Gang, I just got a Compaq lugable, and it seems that the XT IDE board is the next thing to add. Anybody (Andrew Lynch?) have some blank boards and the rom, or a completed board, cable, drive they what to sell? Thanks, Randy

15 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

viper 2150 drives

by pspan＠amerytel.net

Hello, Yes the tape should poition and the head seak track one. The 2150 has a puck that pinches when the slide locks the cartridge in place. Check to be sure that the puck is not soft with your finger. DO NOT APPLY ALCOHOL TO THE PUCK. The puck is driven by a belt from the drive motor. Hope this helps. Phil

15 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

lilith computer by wikipedia

by rborsuk＠colourfull.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160495302854 Am I reading this right? A book based on wikipedia articles. Has anyone ever seen this? Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com

15 years, 8 months

12
23
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AT&T 6300 in the Bay Area

by classiccmp＠vintage-computer.com

I've got a nice, boxed and working AT&T 6300 that has to go ASAP. I've had it on eBay (item 190454801269) but the shipping is/was prohibative ($110ish for 3 boxes) and it's been languishing on The VCGM for too long. I'm brokering this for someone in the NorCal area and if it's not gone very soon it's going back to the owner and subsequently, eventually, to the recycler. I'll pass any reasonable offers on to the owner for consideration. Local pickup is preferred. And no, "you're gonna throw it away anyway so just give it to me" is not a "reasonable" offer. :) -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace

15 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc)

by thomas.gardner＠sbcglobal.net

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote: >Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. >A random access storage is defined by the fact that addressing >any arbitrary cell needs the same time. . That may be today's definition but if you check the literature of the 50's and 60's I am sure u will find drums (along with Williams Tubes, etc) categorized as random access devices. Even the first disk drive was the IBM RAMAC 350 - as in Random Access Memory! I think IBM invented the term Direct Access Storage in the 1960s to distinguish devices whose assess time was short but variable; that is, in between core (random) and tape (sequential). So the historical definition may have been . needs essentially the same time. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:14 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46 > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers (William Donzelli) > 2. RE: the new manx is live (Rob Jarratt) > 3. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Ian King) > 4. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (MikeS) > 5. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Dan Williams) > 6. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Al Kossow) > 7. Re: the new manx is live (Dan Roganti) > 8. Re: the new manx is live (Richard) > 9. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 (Chuck Guzis) > 10. RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Rich Alderson) > 11. Re: HTL (Charles Dickman) > 12. Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > (Al Kossow) > 13. Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey) > 14. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Chuck Guzis) > 15. Re: Moving House - Need to downsize (Pontus Pihlgren) > 16. Re: the new manx is live (Pontus Pihlgren) > 17. Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation > Alto Restoration) (Nick Allen) > 18. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Charlie Carothers) > 19. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (r.stricklin) > 20. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Jochen Kunz) > 21. Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > (Christian Corti) > 22. RE: Oldest original working proper computer (stored program > etc) (Roger Holmes) > 23. Re: lilith computer by wikipedia (Simon Fryer) > 24. Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC > (Operation Alto Restoration) (Al Kossow) > 25. RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (dwight elvey) > 26. Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive (Dave McGuire) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:25:52 -0400 > From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: 1986 NSA paper on computers > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTinUBCts0XvV0RaGH7RcJQab-Vqm5YjBrks8aQP3 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > Will, you've got a 1604; do you know anything about this? > > Not me. > > I probably have enough of the modules that I could build one, however. > > -- > Will > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:28:17 +0100 > From: "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> > Subject: RE: the new manx is live > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Only'" > <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <015601cb7166$e49b58a0$add209e0$(a)ntlworld.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Sent: 21 October 2010 08:10 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: <http://manx.classiccmp.org> > > > > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > > Details: > > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org traceroute to > classiccmp.org > > (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets > > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms > 14.051 > ms > > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > > 14.759 ms > > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 > ms > > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 > ms > > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 > ms > > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms > 42.313 ms > > 40.571 ms > > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > > 147.097 ms > > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms > 150.014 > > ms 150.329 ms > > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) > 167.084 > > ms 156.374 ms > > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) > 158.136 > ms > > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 > ms > > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms > 151.915 > > ms > > 20 * * * > > 21 * * * > > 22 * * * > > 23 * * * > > 24 * * * > > 25 * * * > > 26 * * * > > 27 * * * > > 28 * * * > > 29 * * * > > 30 * * * > > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > > 32 * * * > > 33 * * * > > 34 * * * > > 35 * * * > > 36 * * * > > 37 * * * > > 38 * * * > > 39 * * * > > 40 * * * > > 41 * * * > > 42 * * * > > 43 * * * > > 44 * * * > > 45 * * * > > 46 * * * > > 47 * * * > > 48 * * * > > 49 * * * > > 50 * * * > > 51 * * * > > 52 * * * > > 53 * * * > > 54 * * * > > 55 * * * > > 56 * * * > > 57 * * * > > 58 * * * > > 59 * * * > > 60 * * * > > 61 * * * > > 62 * * * > > 63 * * * > > 64 * * * > > root at kg-quiet# > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Oslo, Norway > > Works OK for me, here is my tracert: > > 1 8 ms 3 ms <1 ms JUPITER [192.168.0.1] > 2 42 ms 22 ms 26 ms 10.236.80.1 > 3 29 ms 66 ms 9 ms oldh-cam-1a-v100.network.virginmedia.net > [80.5.1 > 65.13] > 4 11 ms 24 ms 12 ms manc-core-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net > [195. > 182.180.37] > 5 25 ms 23 ms 18 ms manc-bb-1a-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.175.1] > 6 22 ms 31 ms 49 ms manc-bb-1b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [62.253 > .187.178] > 7 34 ms 45 ms 35 ms nrth-bb-1a-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.64.21] > 8 30 ms 29 ms 15 ms nrth-tmr-1-ae1-0.network.virginmedia.net > [213.10 > 5.159.30] > 9 64 ms 54 ms 43 ms fran-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net > [62.253. > 185.81] > 10 76 ms 51 ms 54 ms te0-7-0-7.mpd22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com > [130.11 > 7.14.133] > 11 144 ms 138 ms 120 ms te0-2-0-6.mpd22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com > [130.11 > 7.51.230] > 12 138 ms 186 ms 155 ms te0-0-0-4.mpd22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54 > .40.234] > 13 137 ms 145 ms 155 ms te0-1-0-0.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54 > .6.178] > 14 184 ms 142 ms 141 ms te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com > [154.54.27. > 30] > 15 173 ms 146 ms 158 ms > vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com [ > 38.20.47.170] > 16 165 ms 165 ms 180 ms 38.104.146.10 > 17 163 ms 151 ms 146 ms host42.datotel.com [208.82.151.42] > 18 147 ms 151 ms 161 ms stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com [208.82.151.22] > 19 151 ms 140 ms 155 ms host50.datotel.com [208.75.82.50] > 20 146 ms 163 ms 158 ms 209-145-130-66.accessus.net > [209.145.130.66] > 21 147 ms 160 ms 163 ms louie.classiccmp.org [209.145.140.17] > > Regards > > Rob > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:30:07 -0700 > From: Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com> > Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E70BE at 505fuji> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > > > > > > I'd like to hear more about what constitutes "cataloging", as I'm a > > > > n00b in this respect. > > > > > > Just what it sounds like. :-) > > > > > > When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > > > number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > > > which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > > > of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > > > parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > > > piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them > > associated > > > even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > > > and piece numbers. > > > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level > > here? > > > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? > > The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > > > Yes. :-) > > Seriously: we do encounter this situation. When a machine comes in, it is > catalogued as an entity. If we find it necessary to remove a component > from machine A to install in machine B, the component is separately > catalogued with a note in the record stating that it was originally part > of machine A. > > I did this recently with a machine that came as a system containing an > RK05 drive identified as non-functional. We used the RK8-E from that > machine with another PDP-8/e that also had RK05 drives but no RK8-E. > > That would not be appropriate for a machine that is historically > significant in its particular configuration (for example, our PDP-12), but > that's a hard argument to make for the vast majority of PDP-8/e's. And > given the records we keep, we could restore the accession to its original > configuration if needed. > > It's always a judgement call when one must balance preservation and > restoration. -- Ian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:52:03 -0400 > From: "MikeS" <dm561 at torfree.net> > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <C254F6585ED7493FB620AF800A7CA4F5 at vl420mt> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > > > That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > > 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > > all of the software for it. > ---- > And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI and > the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;-) > > mike > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:53:10 +0100 > From: Dan Williams <williams.dan at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTinSeMiB8LqMnhemRO9Gkq56Ov5wGO6oZfeYtG0P at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 21 October 2010 20:12, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 07:12:03PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > >> I'm sure these will be popular: ?I have 8x big heavy drive DSSI drive > >> units. They have not been powered up for a few years. They have > >> scsi-->dssi convertor cards in them. They currently have 1GB and 2GB > >> full height drive units in them. But they can take up to 9GB. > >> I also have cabling which I have to sort out mainly for SUN and DEC. I > >> have all the cabling for the dssi drives and a lot of monitor and > >> other cables for Vaxstation 3100's. > > > > I'm curious about that SCSI->DSSI converter. Is it used to run dssi > > disks on a scsi controller or scsi disks on a dssi controller ? > > > > The latter would be interesting. > > > > Regards, > > Pontus. > > > > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you > can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a > liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. > > Dan > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 15:08:48 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0B9F0.5000705 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 2:52 PM, MikeS wrote: > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 > > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > > > >> That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > >> 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > >> all of the software for it. > > ---- > > And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI > and the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;- > ) > > > > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a > couple of weeks ago. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:14:26 -0400 > From: Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTinTe5iYUGDnrsygRs+4XuFwxrGweoN+rEDL6fMg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > > > > In article <AANLkTikFFFKKo=6Ba=6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp+WO- > gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com<6DjtK1hUkDUSciHp%2BWO-gfLNyM at mail.gmail.com> > > >, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen <tingox at gmail.com> writes: > > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > > > Noone else has reported problems; manx is hosted on the same group of > > machines that serves this mailing list and several other classic > > computing sites graciously hosted by Jay. > > > > > > very nice ! > > Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? > SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. > > > =Dan > --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:51:54 -0600 > From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <E1P93zG-0005Jz-CS at shell.xmission.com> > > > In article <AANLkTinTe5iYUGDnrsygRs+4XuFwxrGweoN+rEDL6fMg at mail.gmail.com>, > Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> writes: > > > Can we always request to add addt'l companies ? > > SEL is on Bitsavers already but not listed on yours. > > This first round was just to reproduce the existing manx. > > Next up is to add users and roles to provide for community additions. > > Contributions of code are welcome. The whole code base has been > developed test-driven and is covered by unit tests. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:02 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4CC06472.12811.1626E31 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 15:08, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I uploaded the GIMINI manuals under generalInstruments on bitsavers a > > couple of weeks ago. > > Well, I've got the CP1600 CPU sitting unused in my hellbox and the > blue manual that gives the schematics for the system. But no > firmware listing for the monitor... > > BTW, did anyone notice that there's a fellow on eBay offering the > INS8900 (PACE in NMOS) NOS CPUs for about $16 the each? > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:04:06 -0700 > From: Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> > Subject: RE: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCB91 at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > From: Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:18 PM > > >> When an item comes into the collection, it is assigned an accession > >> number; the standard is yyyy.nnn.mmm, where nnn represents order in > >> which the item came in in year yyyy, and mmm is the individual number > >> of each piece that makes up the item. If a piece is made up of > >> parts (say a tea set, for example) a letter can be suffixed to the > >> piece number for each part to make it possible to keep them associated > >> even if physically apart. Leading zeroes should be used in the item > >> and piece numbers. > > > What do you mean by 'item','piece' and 'part' here? I can understand an > > item being made of several pieces, but why do you need a third level > here? > > I was trying not to re-use the same word for different levels. > > You donate items to a museum, let's say for simplicity's sake a horse shoe > and a tea service with 4 individually decorated cups and matching saucers, > pot, sugar and creamer. > > You do this in 2010. That's the first field of the accession numbers. > > The two items are the 75th and 76th donated to the museum this year. > These numbers will be the second fields of the respective accession > numbers. > > The horse shoe will receive accession number 2010.075.001, and be marked > as 2010.75.1 > > The tea pot will be 2010.076.001; the sugar, 2010.076.002; the creamer, > 2010.076.003; the first cup-and-saucer pair, 2010.076.004A and > 2010.076.004B; > and so on. The reason for pairing the cup and saucer will be the matching > decoration on each pair. > > You could also simply number each piece individually, but then you lose > information. > > > In the case of a classic computer, what would you label? The casing? The > > individual PCBs/modules? How would you handle the case of taking 2 > > effectively identical machines acquired at differnet times and using > > parts from bvth to make one working example, or would a museum never do > > that? (If the latter, then I consider the policy to be broken!). > > I'll start with the last comment. The policy will depend on the purpose > of the museum; no two museums have identical missions, though they may be > very close. A computer museum with a mission of making systems run will > have a very different answer to your question than a museum dealing with > the history of engineering laboratories, where the identical computers > may have been used for very different purposes and be important to the > understanding of how each lab achieved its goals. (Not every museum tries > to please everyone in the know about a topic--there are art museums which > I find deadly dull, and art museums I love to visit over and over, for > example.) Neither policy is "broken", they simply differ. > > Computers are more difficult to catalog than tea services. My personal > preference would be to replicate the manufacturer's bill of materials, > assigning accession numbers at each level down to the circuit boards (or > equivalent, in the case of large valve-based modules, but those don't > crop up in the time frame in which we have specialized). Since the > catalog here was set up by someone else several years before I joined > the team, I have to accommodate myself to what is in place--we're not in > a position to re-catalog several thousand pieces my way. > > We catalog the top-level items (CPU, disk drives, tape drives, printers, > etc.) when they come in. The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier: Loose items, like spare boards, are > catalogued when they come in, but boards installed in larger items only > get catalogued when they are pulled for repair or replacement. > > It takes discipline to catalog pieces when you would really rather be > restoring a system to working condition, but without a catalog, you will > very quickly lose all semblance of provenance, and your reason for being > a museum. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.PDPplanet.org/ > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:09:31 -0400 > From: Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> > Subject: Re: HTL > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTimgJ80NcGDTXXwhRHZFDfbzy_reGtCe65juy5Ax at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:27 PM, William Donzelli > <wdonzelli at gmail.com>wrote: > > > Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips? > > > > Why do you ask? > > I have quite a few HTL chips that I have no use for. > > -chuck > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 18:23:11 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Re: Cataloguing in a museum setting [was Re: nonsense...] > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0E77F.3000005 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 4:04 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > The low-level items (disk packs and cartridges, > > tapes, boards, etc.) are fuzzier > > But necessary. > > We're discovering that systems were accepted in Boston with no boards in > them, > for example, and there is nothing in the accession record that mentions > that > fact. > > It's absolutely necessary to know if anything that should be in an > accessioned > artifact is missing, and the condition. > > It is a huge amount of work to catalog a collection. > > One of the requirements for museum accreditation is having a significant > portion of your collection cataloged. > > CHM has come a LONG way since I've been here. We have just under 75,000 > items > visible in the on-line data base > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:37:58 -0700 > From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> > Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <SNT129-W286E3F0A65E7EDCFA0F5C3A35E0 at phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > is working as expected. > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > Is this normal? > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4CC0B5B4.16151.2A10F67 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > > is working as expected. > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be > automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive > should spin the tape a bit). > > --Chuck > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:13:36 +0200 > From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> > Subject: Re: Moving House - Need to downsize > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <20101022051336.GA15674 at Update.UU.SE> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 10:53:10PM +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > > > > It takes scsi disks on a dssi controller. It has a front panel and you > > can connect to the controller like a normal dssi disk. It is a > > liberator 220. I have the user manual for it if anyone is interested. > > It would be a lovely thing to have. I live in sweden and unless you find > someone local and wouldn't mind shipping I wouldn't mind paying for it. > Well, it depends on the size of course, how big is this thing? > > /P > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:16:37 +0200 > From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <20101022051637.GB15674 at Update.UU.SE> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > This is a semiuseful tool: > > http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://manx.classiccmp.org/ > > Good work everyone! Manx is an awesome tool! Many thanks. > > /Pontus > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 09:10:28AM +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > > > > Manx is an online catalog of computer documentation. > > > > > > The new manx is up for beta testing here: <http://manx.classiccmp.org> > > > > > > > I seem to be having problems reaching the site. > > Details: > > root at kg-quiet# traceroute manx.classiccmp.org > > traceroute to classiccmp.org (209.145.140.17), 64 hops max, 52 byte > packets > > 1 kg-omni1 (10.1.10.1) 0.228 ms 0.182 ms 0.158 ms > > 2 kg-ruter (10.0.0.1) 77.819 ms 127.069 ms 86.825 ms > > 3 1.80-203-92.nextgentel.com (80.203.92.1) 15.481 ms 14.011 ms > 14.051 > > ms > > 4 80-202-3-30.dd.nextgentel.com (80.202.3.30) 17.763 ms * 59.706 ms > > 5 217-13-0-70.dd.nextgentel.com (217.13.0.70) 18.365 ms 14.260 ms > > 14.759 ms > > 6 oso-b3-link.telia.net (80.239.193.93) 15.088 ms 14.948 ms 14.765 > ms > > 7 kbn-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.251.49) 34.331 ms 27.930 ms 28.293 > ms > > 8 hbg-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.114) 78.106 ms 34.255 ms 34.479 > ms > > 9 ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 67.265 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.245.123) 44.158 ms > > ffm-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.142) 50.006 ms > > 10 ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.490 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.252.174) 41.347 ms > > ffm-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.249.103) 42.628 ms > > 11 cogent-ic-135155-ffm-b2.c.telia.net (213.248.93.174) 51.872 ms > 42.313 > > ms 40.571 ms > > 12 te0-2-0-6.ccr22.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.36.81) 42.860 ms > > te0-2-0-6.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.245) 132.058 ms > > te0-4-0-0.mpd21.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.26.101) 147.305 ms > > 13 te0-4-0-0.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.42.113) 140.836 ms > > te0-2-0-4.mpd21.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.226) 152.265 ms > > te0-2-0-6.ccr22.dca01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.31.241) 135.140 ms > > 14 te0-1-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.206) 143.202 ms > > te0-2-0-4.ccr22.ord01.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.40.210) 157.894 ms > > 147.097 ms > > 15 te3-2.ccr01.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.27.30) 150.725 ms > 150.014 > > ms 150.329 ms > > 16 vl3808.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.170) > 167.084 > > ms 156.374 ms > > vl3508.na41.b003211-0.stl03.atlas.cogentco.com (38.20.47.166) > 158.136 > > ms > > 17 38.104.146.10 (38.104.146.10) 155.110 ms 155.902 ms 152.225 ms > > 18 host42.datotel.com (208.82.151.42) 161.893 ms 179.548 ms 167.528 > ms > > 19 stl-d1-g5-1.datotel.com (208.82.151.22) 157.149 ms 151.804 ms > 151.915 > > ms > > 20 * * * > > 21 * * * > > 22 * * * > > 23 * * * > > 24 * * * > > 25 * * * > > 26 * * * > > 27 * * * > > 28 * * * > > 29 * * * > > 30 * * * > > 31 * host50.datotel.com (208.75.82.50) 156.517 ms !X * > > 32 * * * > > 33 * * * > > 34 * * * > > 35 * * * > > 36 * * * > > 37 * * * > > 38 * * * > > 39 * * * > > 40 * * * > > 41 * * * > > 42 * * * > > 43 * * * > > 44 * * * > > 45 * * * > > 46 * * * > > 47 * * * > > 48 * * * > > 49 * * * > > 50 * * * > > 51 * * * > > 52 * * * > > 53 * * * > > 54 * * * > > 55 * * * > > 56 * * * > > 57 * * * > > 58 * * * > > 59 * * * > > 60 * * * > > 61 * * * > > 62 * * * > > 63 * * * > > 64 * * * > > root at kg-quiet# > > > > Is it working ok for everyone else? > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > Oslo, Norway > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 19:57:55 -0500 > From: Nick Allen <nick.allen at comcast.net> > Subject: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC (Operation > Alto Restoration) > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC0E193.9070101 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Al and everyone else, > > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a > PC computer (I assume so, since he uploaded the Alto diskpacks up to > bitsavers.org). Al, Can you (or anyone else) please provide the steps > on how to do so? > > If I can verify the disk drive is working, and the disk packs have valid > data on them, this would be yet another step completed in getting the > alto up and running =) > > Thanks! > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:26:49 -0500 > From: Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4CC10479.2020902 at tx.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/18/2010 6:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> From: Christian Corti<cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> > >> > >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: > >>> don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest > >>> original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which > don't > >>> have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed > in > >>> the late 1950s). > >> > >> Then you've been told wrong. > >> Several examples: > >> - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. > Just > >> yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around > 1954. > >> - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) > >> - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 > (apparently > >> still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) > >> All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in > >> southern Germany. > >> > >>> restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not > counting > >>> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway > I'm > >>> not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it > >>> survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless > it > >>> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. > >> > >> What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and > >> rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. > > > > Thank you, this is just the information I wanted. > > > > Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete? > > > > If it is, then it would be useful to know when the rebuilt version > became operational, though I'm not actually sure the actual month my > machine went live either. > > > > Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program, than my list so far is: > > > > 1958, LGP-30 > > 1958, Zuse Z22 > > Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650 > > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine with > random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and called Immediate > Access Store by ICT). > > > > Thanks again. > > > > I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of several more when I > catch up with my e-mails. > > > > > > > According to this: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/650/650_ch1.html the first > 650 was installed at a customer site in December, 1954. > > I thought this was pretty interesting as well: > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_FT1.html > It indicates the 701 was around in 1952. I'm not sure if you want to > limit your list to core memory or not. It appears that the 701's > internal memory consisted of a drum and a CRT. In any case, I need to > waste a lot more time exploring these pages. :-) > Later, > Charlie C. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:23:44 -0700 > From: "r.stricklin" <bear at typewritten.org> > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <D428CDED-9195-48F5-B183-3CE5930788D1 at typewritten.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 9:37 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > Is this normal? > > It could be, depending on firmware. > > ok > bear > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 08:53:46 +0200 > From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20101022085346.5c1f9ec0.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:00 +0100 > Roger Holmes <roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk> wrote: > > > 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine > > with random access program and data storage. > Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, > just with a bit lattency... > > I don't know how and when the Z22 at the ZKM is operated now. When it > moved to the ZKM there where weekly operating hours with demonstrations > done by the former maintainers of the machine. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:03:10 +0200 (CEST) > From: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> > Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1010221057001.21272 at linuxserv.home> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 22 Oct 2010, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Well. The drum of the Z22 is random access program and data storage, > > just with a bit lattency... > > Per definition, a magnetic drum is not random access. A random access > storage is defined by the fact that addressing any arbitrary cell needs > the same time. > But the Z22 has a small amount of core memory, too, called > "Schnellspeicher", i.e. "fast memory". > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:11:53 +0100 > From: Roger Holmes <roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk> > Subject: RE: Oldest original working proper computer (stored program > etc) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <C1C3379B-1DCB-412A-B3C3-43252EF6DC0E at microspot.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > From: "Rod Smallwood" <rodsmallwood at btconnect.com> > > > > > > And we have a winner!! > > > > > > The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948) > > It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube, enough to demonstrate > the > > stored-program principle in working electronics, the first in the world > to > > do so > > > > Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A von Neumann > > ? > > > No, sorry the ORIGINAL Manchester Baby no longer exists. Fellow members of > the Computer Conservation Society have built a replica, correct in almost > every respect but it is only a few years old so does not qualify as oldest > original working stored program computer. I still would like to make a > list of the top ten not just the top one. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:11:20 +1100 > From: Simon Fryer <fryers at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: lilith computer by wikipedia > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTinYKzyw+HKKc3FS9EAFdkrLis0n1NX-KnAO=rcx at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 22/10/2010, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >> Yes, and made the mistake of buying one. Couldn't believe it when it > >> actually arrived. I left an interesting review on Amazon. > > > > Do you happen to remember the title (or have a URL) for this? I wonder > > how the authors of that/those wikipedia articles feel about this? I know > > I'd be pretty annoyed if somedy did that with something I'd written. > > ISBN 10: 1155452186 > ISBN 13: 978-1155452180 > Title: ICL Mainframe Computers: Leo, English Electric Kdf8, Elliott > 803, Ict 1900, ICL 2900 Series, English Electric Kdf9, Ict 1301 > By: Books LLC > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/ICL-Mainframe-Computers-English- > Electric/dp/1155452186/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top > > >> Only upside, it is in a more convenient format for reading while on the > >> toilet. > > > > And for other uses in that location? > > The paper isn't really too soft. It might be okay in an emergency. > > Simon > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > the utility of the final product." > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:27:37 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Re: Test Diablo Model 31 drive and disk pack on a PC > (Operation Alto Restoration) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4CC19149.5030409 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/21/10 5:57 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > > Al and everyone else, > > > > I believe Al has had success interfacing a Diablo Model 31 with a PC > computer > > I used a program that runs on the Alto and copies sectors across through a > PC parallel port. > > Could you take pictures of the labels on the packs? I normally supplied a > couple of them > with the machines that came from me, and could tell pretty quickly if they > need to be copied. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:07:24 -0700 > From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> > Subject: RE: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <SNT129-W644821C0BBBE562CFC5863A35E0 at phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > > From: cclist at sydex.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 21:50:44 -0700 > > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > > > > On 21 Oct 2010 at 21:37, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > I just got this use drive and I was wondering if it > > > is working as expected. > > > When I plug in the tape, the head moves up and down > > > but the tape drive motor doesn't move. > > > Is this normal? > > > > My recollection of this drive is that the tape should be > > automatically positioned to BOT when inserted. (i.e., the drive > > should spin the tape a bit). > > > > --Chuck > > > > > Thanks Chuck > I was afraid of that. That was my recollection > of similar drives. Now I have to find out why the motor > doesn't spin. > As I recalled, if the tape was accidentally loaded > with the end of tape marker off the spool, it would > unspool the hole thing and it would then be a 30 > minute job to spool it back on. > I'll have to look at the motor drive and see what is up. > The fact that I see the head moving gives me confidence > that it is most likely the motor drive circuit. > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. > Dwight > > Dwight > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:13:34 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Subject: Re: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4CC19C0E.3060509 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/22/10 10:07 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > This is suppose to back up my Sparcbook. As you recall > > my 8mm drive didn't seem to work with it so I thought > > I'd try a drive that was inteneded. > > 8mm drives were sold with early SPARCstations and SPARCservers as > well, FYI. An 8mm drive will work fine if it's properly set up. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 46 > **************************************

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Almost free: various DEC, Wyse items, for pickup Rockville, MD, USA

by js＠cimmeri.com

Last call for items located in Rockville, MD, 20850. Already taken: CCS S-100 chassis; HP 712; Fluke 8520. Almost free: $2 (two) dollars per item, local pickup only at this time, no photos. Offer expires 11/7/10. 1. Digital BA23 floor pedestal enclosure, complete with front + rear covers. Very decent shape. No yellowing (painted). 2. Digital LA100 Letterprinter w/ ribbons. Tested working. Has age yellowing (barely perceptible) but no heavy yellowing (eg. from UV light). 3. Digital LA75 Plus Companion Printer (LA75S-A2) w/ parallel + MMJ. Professionally refurbished and assumed working (but untested). Clean and nice cosmetic shape. No yellowing. 4. Wyse 60 RS232C terminal with keyboard and spare analog board. Terminal unit is in excellent shape all around, as is spare analog board. Keyboard was taken apart and thoroughly cleaned -- it works but 3 of the keycaps broke when it slid off my desk. No yellowing on any of the components. My handle on ebay is MdntTrain if anyone wishes to verify my reputation. Email me if interested in any or all. I will select who the items go to. Thank you, John Singleton js at cimmeri.com

15 years, 8 months

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Oldest original working proper computer (stored program etc)

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

> From: "Rod Smallwood" <rodsmallwood at btconnect.com> > > > And we have a winner!! > > > The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948) > It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube, enough to demonstrate the > stored-program principle in working electronics, the first in the world to > do so > > Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A von Neumann > ? No, sorry the ORIGINAL Manchester Baby no longer exists. Fellow members of the Computer Conservation Society have built a replica, correct in almost every respect but it is only a few years old so does not qualify as oldest original working stored program computer. I still would like to make a list of the top ten not just the top one.

15 years, 8 months

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Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc)

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

> From: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> > > On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: >> don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest >> original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which don't >> have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed in >> the late 1950s). > > Then you've been told wrong. > Several examples: > - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. Just > yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around 1954. > - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) > - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 (apparently > still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) > All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in > southern Germany. > >> restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not counting >> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway I'm >> not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it >> survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless it >> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. > > What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and > rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. Thank you, this is just the information I wanted. Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete? If it is, then it would be useful to know when the rebuilt version became operational, though I'm not actually sure the actual month my machine went live either. Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program, than my list so far is: 1958, LGP-30 1958, Zuse Z22 Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine with random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and called Immediate Access Store by ICT). Thanks again. I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of several more when I catch up with my e-mails.

15 years, 8 months

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HTL

by wdonzelli＠gmail.com

Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips? -- Will

15 years, 8 months

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cctalk Digest, Vol 86, Issue 45

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:03:54 -0700 From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4CC0808A.8010108 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/21/10 10:03 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> For example, the GI GIMINI (CP1600) > That would be fun to find. There was a version that I used in the late > 70's that had a DSD floppy disk interfaced to it. I think I still have > all of the software for it. ---- And I've got some brochures and datasheets for the GIC8000 and GIMINI and the various cards and chips in them, so all we need is the computer ;-) mike

15 years, 8 months

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1986 NSA paper on computers

by cclist＠sydex.com

Something that's fun reading, in spite of the redactions is the 1986 National Security report on "General and Special-Purpose Computers: a Historical Look and Some Lessons Learned": http://tinyurl.com/2dt5egq (PDF) --Chuck

15 years, 8 months

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Xerox Alto aution

by jws＠jwsss.com

Mr 1519 approval rating bid $30,100 as a snipe. At least it wasn't a 0 feedback ID that did it. Things really took of in the last 5 minutes with the winning bidder having a true snipe. Anyone on the list the winner? The other Alto thread is useless, nothing about Alto's so starting a new thread here about this sale, also on topic to discuss what happened to the short lived auction for the alto from DC. Was that one fraud, or stupidity? In advance change the thread title if you hijack it, please. Jim

15 years, 8 months

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Updates on repairing Xerox Alto

by nick.allen＠comcast.net

Couple updates and requests for help. Got the CRT repaired and WORKING! The culprit was the 100k sliding pot control on the underside of the CRT. Now that I have a working CRT, it is on to the next step of diagnosing in which I need advice. I noticed the cursor is a hardware cursor, does this mean if I get the display board working (and if only the display card is working) will it output the cursor to the CRT? If so, this is great news as I can focus on repairing a single board. If not, do you know which boards I need to get working at a MINIMUM to get ANY display on the CRT (either the hardware cursor, or some sort of diagnostic boot code to output to the CRT)? Thanks! Nick

15 years, 8 months

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Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza)

by dm561＠torfree.net

> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 14:43:53 +1300 > From: "Terry Stewart" <terry at webweavers.co.nz> > Subject: Introduction - Terry Stewart (tezza) > > Hi, > > I joined a few days ago and feel I should introduce myself to others on > this > list. Some here may know me as tezza on Eric Klein's Vintage Computer > Forums, a handle I also use on a few other vintage computer places around > the Net. ... > Terry Stewart (Tez) > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz ------------------- Nice to see you made it; see, all you had to do was ask ;-) Enjoy, mike

15 years, 8 months

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Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs?

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:17:36 -0500 From: "Michael B. Brutman" <mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com> Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs? I just looked at my TI Programmer - how on earth do you even get into the BP-8? The flex tabs that hold it together won't budge, and I'm not interested in breaking them. If I could get into it, I'd like to rebuild the battery pack. Mike ---------------- Not to start one of our flamefests over here, but it should be pretty straightforward; gently pry out the short 3 finger side with something wide enough to catch the whole width, and it will just tilt open. Hope your batteries aren't too corroded. I've replaced mine several times, as well as another TI calc using a similar pack. I _might_ even have an inverter module for the OP; still looking. mike

15 years, 8 months

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Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs?

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:17:36 -0500 From: "Michael B. Brutman" <mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com> Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs? I just looked at my TI Programmer - how on earth do you even get into the BP-8? The flex tabs that hold it together won't budge, and I'm not interested in breaking them. If I could get into it, I'd like to rebuild the battery pack. Mike ---------------- Not to start one of our flamefests over here, but it should be pretty straightforward; gently pry out the short 3 finger side with something wide enough to catch the whole width, and it will just tilt open. I've replaced mine several times, as well as another TI calc using the same pack; hope your batteries aren't too corroded. I _might_ even have an inverter module for the OP; still looking. mike

15 years, 8 months

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Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc)

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

> From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> > >> I am not interested in machines which have not been powered up for more than a year, even if they were operational when stored, the likelihood of them working when turned on again is low. Expansion and contraction, static electricity, chemical reactions especially in old electrolytic capacitors take their toll. Computers were built to be used, one which cannot be operated is no more interest to me than the hull of an old ship. > > Interesting you mention hulls of old ships and oldest operating > computers. It is likely that any list of "oldest operating computers" > would probably be dominated by special purpose digital* computers > (fire control, navigation, crypto, etc.) on ex-US and Soviet warships > serving in third world navies. Even in the backwaters of the US Navy > there are still some ancient machines still going. I have a mental picture of a mercury delay being rocked back and forth by the motion of a battleship :-) Certainly mechanical analogue computers were common in fire control, and must have got replaced by something more modern, but I would restrict the list to stored program machines. Nickel delay lines were likely used and drums used directly for executing code would of course work on a ship too. Williams tubes maybe, and the earliest core memory machine would have been military too. > Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that > historians tend to dismiss. Maybe because they are excluded by secrecy, as happened with the UK's WW2 German code breaking machines until the story got out and Bletchley Park was saved. In my first job I came across several military computers, but they were for use in aircraft and so much less heavy. I worked on the Mk2 Nimrod, based on the Comet, and I've heard tell that in its first incarnation it was bright aluminium because if they painted it the weight of the paint would have stopped it from becoming airborne. > * The submarines of Taiwan still use the Mk IV Torpedo Data Computers > (mechanical analog), installed when the boats were still US during > World War 2. Interesting, but not a stored program computer.

15 years, 8 months

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HTL

by ragooman＠gmail.com

-----Original Message----- Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010 1:13:29 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> Subject: Re: HTL > You'd use the same precautions, in-circuit or out, that you'd use > with any bipolar logic chip, be it HTL, DTL, RTL or TTL. ?No special > precautions or lack thereof because it's HTL. Being bipolar does not mean ESD safe. ECL is somewhat static sensitive. Also, with HTL being such an old family, I am unsure as to its sensitivity. DTL and TTL have become more static insensitive over time with die revisions and better processes. Did HTL, always a low-runner, go through this process? There's different levels of ESD protection for handling components. Whether your just storing parts for a hobby, development lab or a full production facility. A simple static wrist strap can avoid any confusion in many situations and should be in your pocket whenever handling components, boards, etc. And if your in the sticks somewhere, without a proper grounding station, you should at least be prepared with a static bag stuffed in your toolbox to cover the cards when handling a rack full of cards. Never touch with bare hands as taught in ESD class. You know the old adage being, don't leave home without it :)

15 years, 8 months

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Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs?

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

Does anyone know where I can find a BP-8 battery pack for my TI Programmer (calculator) that I've owned since the early 80's? It has a small dc-dc converter and two AA nicads inside, supplying 9 volts to the snap-on connector. The board is corroded beyond salvaging by badly leaked nicads :( It will run on a 9 volt battery too (max drain with all digits on is 44 ma according to this interesting German site): http://www.christophlorenz.de/calc/ti/programmer.php?l=en and I suppose I could just put one inside the plastic housing of the BP-8 which of course would not be rechargeable. I also need a pack for my otherwise clean SR-51A, a BP-1A. This would be trivial to repair except that it's completely missing and I have no idea where it went! thanks Charles

15 years, 8 months

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IBM 7010 Photo (Re: What Computer is This and Who is This Guy?)

by kb-internet＠comcast.net

Hi I was looking for the picture of the IBM 7010 - is it still available? I think I used to program on this back in the late sixties at Chevrolet. Thanks Trina

15 years, 8 months

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Sequent Tape Drive

by wdonzelli＠gmail.com

I have a small Sequent SCSI cabinet with a 8mm tape drive in it - untested. Any Sequent fans need this before I send it to the grinder? It is a typical single full high SCSI box with power supply. Cheap! -- Will, in 10512

15 years, 8 months

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mTCP 2010-10-20 Version (DOS TCP/IP apps)

by mbbrutman-cctalk＠brutman.com

I haven't flogged this here in a long time, so my apologies in advance: A new version of mTCP is available at http://www.brutman.com/mTCP . mTCP is a collection of TCP/IP applications with the TCP/IP code built into each application. The applications include a DHCP client, FTP client, IRC client, Telnet client, SNTP (Simple NTP) client, Telnet, Ping and Netcat. Static networking setup is available if you are not inclined to use DHCP. Requirements are a PC, clone, PCjr or whatever you have, somewhere around 192KB of free memory, and a network device with a packet driver. I use 'device' loosely here - this includes SLIP, PPP, Ethernet cards, and Ethernet adapters hanging off of parallel ports. The code runs well in DOSBox and virtual machines if you are so inclined. Features of the stack include: - ARP, TCP and UDP - Automatic detection and retransmission of lost packets - Support for multiple open sockets - Listen/accept support for server style applications - DNS resolving - Zero window support - IP fragment reassembly The goal is to make this open source some day. Until then, you just have to enjoy the compiled binaries. I started out with Turbo C++ 3.0 about five years ago, and recently switched to Open Watcom. IP fragment support is the newest addition to the code. Enjoy, Mike

15 years, 8 months

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Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!)

by ken＠seefried.com

> (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat > an item nicely) So eBay is precisely like every other market on the planet. Shocking. <rolls eyes>

15 years, 8 months

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Single-board TTL PDP-8 (was Re: pdp-8/i ECO history?)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 10/20/10, Vincent Slyngstad <vrs at msn.com> wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks": Wednesday, October 20, 2010 8:14 AM >> On 10/20/10, Vincent Slyngstad <vrs at msn.com> wrote: >>> Hmm. I might choose the 8/L for something like that. Possibly soup >>> up the memory to 32K, but leave out all the option cruft of the 8/I >>> backplane. >> >> And replace the 7453 and 7482 with something made with less unobtanium? > > Sure. We've talked about how to do that before, I think. You'd face that > problem starting from either the 8/I or the 8/L. Yes, but I thought it worth keeping in play. >> The memory extension hardware to take it over 4K is obviously >> non-trivial in size (especially considering it doesn't fit in an -8/L >> CPU enclosure). > > Good point. You would definitely need some board area for that. Considering how much of the -8/i backplane it takes up (about 1/2 as much as the EAE), it's a noticable chunk. >> OTOH, if you have over 32K (*have over 4K) >> there might as well be provisions for OS/8-compatible mass >> storage, otherwise it's just a papertape machine with more than 4K. > > True, though an RF08 emulation doesn't take much board space. Nope. That takes about 3"x5" in TTL (with a 16-bit Dallas RAM/battery module), IIRC. > Or one could go with an RX08 interface for extra clanking ambiance :-). While amusing and handy for some (I would use it), unless someone whips up a cable-compatible RX01/RX02 emulator (could be to floppy or removable FLASH), there are only so many original drive sets running around. Of course, one could build that RX01 emulator and include an optional Arduino-based MP3 player to emit the whirring and clanking. Frivolous but entertaining. -ethan

15 years, 8 months

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