- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by ggs＠shiresoft.com

I know some folks have been trying to get in touch with me for a while and I want to apologize for not getting back in touch with folks before now. The short and long of it has been the fact that first my wife had health issues, then I had health issues and finally in the middle of all of this my ISP decided to move me to a new static IP block which caused my email to be on various black-lists that took a while to get off of (so I could *see* the emails, I just couldn't respond). So, that's why folks haven't heard from me. Up until the above, I had been making steady progress on the MEM11 code. Right now I have most of the forth code written along with a J1 simulator (written in forth). I was in the process of debugging the simulator when all of the above occurred and I haven't been able to get back to it yet. I hope to start on it again in the next few weeks. TTFN - Guy

11 years

2
2
0 0

Front Panel Tech Note 2

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Pontus Pihlgren >> Seeing the one with the one with the missing toggle switches reminds >> me that I have an enquiry out re getting some made. > I believe many would appreciate that. We probably ought to standardize our terminology to be slightly less confusing. As we've determined, the actual switch is a slide switch, not a toggle. I'm not sure what the official DEC name is for the plastic lever which actuates the slide switch - anyone know? Noel PS: If a way is developed to make the plastic levers, the 11/20 uses the exact same part, just in PDP-11 colours.

11 years

4
3
0 0

Front Panel Tech Note 2

by rodsmallwood52＠btinternet.com

Asof now I know of two variations 1, Selector switch positions 1 and 6 lines can be vertical or at an angle to the vertical 2, Vertical divider between groups of three lamps Anybody seen an 8/e panel with anything else? Rod

11 years

2
6
0 0

Intel MDS-740 hard disk documentation wanted

by spacewar＠gmail.com

Does anyone have documentation for the Intel MDS-740 hard disk system for use with the MDS and Series II, Series III development systems? The drive had one fixed and one removable platter, the removable being a 12-sector 5440-style cartridge. The drive may have been a CDC 9427H, or something similar. The controller was two Multibus boards, a 3000 bit-slice based channel board, and a drive interface board. (Similar organization to the two-board floppy controllers.) I am mostly looking for the schematics and programming information, though if anyone has an actual controller board (or even just the channel board), a dump of the microcode would be useful. The documentation I'm looking for might or might not be contained in the "Model 740 Hard Disk Subsystem Operation and Checkout" manual, order number 9800943A. Note that this is *entirely* different than the iMDX 750 winchester disk subsystem. The 740 was supported by plain ISIS-II 4.x, while the iMDS 750 used a variant of the iSBC 215 controller, and required a special ISIS-II(W). Thanks! Eric

11 years

1
0
0 0

Any DOS Gamers out there??

by slandon110＠gmail.com

Hey guys? Is there anyone that uses DOS and early Win9x Machines?? Ive got about 4 of them that could use a home.. Ive wiped them all and put FreeDOS on them. Ive got a number of early PCI and ISA VGA Cards and network cards as well Are these worth saving?? Steve

11 years

3
2
0 0

Opening up a TeleVideo TPC-1

by isking＠uw.edu

Hi folks, I was in an antique store today, mostly to humor my wife, and much to her dismay spotted a fairly early luggable: it said TeleVideo on the face and, looking closer, it was a TPC-1 with the keyboard, the carrying bag, the documentation AND a metric butt-ton of floppies. Once I get everything sorted I'll let the list know what software I have, so if you need something maybe I can help.... ...and maybe you can help me. I want to open up the TPC and check power supplies, etc. - OK, I'll come clean. I plugged it in, watched carefully for magic smoke and, seeing none, put a 'working disk' in the drive. I got an endless string of '.' but no boot. I tried a couple of other disks labeled <boot> and, after a couple, I no longer had a display. So no surprise, I really need to open it up and probably replace a bunch of PS capacitors. I have no idea how to get this box open! There's nothing in the documentation, and I found one online reference that suggested TeleVideo kept this information close to the chest because they didn't want any Tom, Dick or Ian opening up their machines. Now if I poke and prod long enough I'll probably get there, but with the collective knowledge on this list I figure there has to be SOME one who worked on these back In The Day, who just knows this off the top of his/her head. So... anyone? Thanks -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu> Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org> University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

11 years

2
1
0 0

SS10 console settings

by tmfdmike＠gmail.com

Folks, I'm trying to resurrect a couple of Sparcstation 10 systems. Is there anything 'funny' about the serial console settings on SS10 hardware? I thought they always defaulted to 9600-n-8-1, but I get voluminous gobbledygook at that, and at every other baud rate I've tried. Both systems behave identically, so I can't assume SS10 settings are wrong. And I *am* getting data, so I don't see how it can be the cabling. Something strange about the terminal emulation mode required maybe? Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

11 years

6
13
0 0

Need help: Reading 800 bpi NRZI 9 track tapes

by jlw＠jlw.com

I have an HP 88780 with the 800 option (confirmed empirically...) I'm in the silicon valley neighborhood. -- Jeff Woolsey jlw at jlw.com

11 years

1
0
0 0

DEC VT180 on Grand Rapids Michigan Craigslist

by slandon110＠gmail.com

Just thought id share this with you guys.. I dont know if the price is fair or not, But if someone wants it and needs pick up arranged I can do it, Im about an hour from there. Just cover my gas.. I can bring it out to VCFMW http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/sys/5074135858.html Thanks Steve

11 years

1
0
0 0

Kaypro II

by BHuntsman＠mail2.cu-portland.edu

Anyone interested in a Kaypro II in decent shape, complete with a couple of keyboard overlays? for trade or for sale... thanks! -Ben

11 years

2
1
0 0

First VAX-11/730 VMS Boot! (was: Re: VAX-11/730 %BOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check)

by cctalk＠beyondthepale.ie

> > Thanks! I'll look up all of those commands to understand them better. > > ^Y looks familiar. I think this is the second time I have learned about it. :) > > > > On Jun 13, 2015, at 18:40, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote: > > > > If you are running backup and it is asking for additional tapes, then I believe you can do the following > > > > ^Y > > $spawn > > $ > > $reply/enable=all > > > Another way is to log on a second time using a terminal other than the console, issue reply/enable and then reply to the messages you receive there. Yet another way is to use BACKUP /NOASSIST - this should avoid issueing OPCOM messages and prompt the issuer of the BACKUP command directly when tapes are to be changed and so on. The standard way of doing backups on VMS is to submit a BACKUP command in a batch job. The operator would normally be logged in interactively and would respond to the OPCOM messages from the batch job and deal with tape mounts. This requires a suitable batch queue to be set up and started. Regards, Peter Coghlan.

11 years

5
10
0 0

ultra sonic washing

by tdk.knight＠gmail.com

has anyone experimented with this on parts? when dealing with dirty equipment? if so what works best for liquid sulutions? ive got a shelf of 15in bass drivers.... and some amps thinking of building something to clean some audio boards i aquired on the cheap though maybe some folks here would have some ideas?

11 years

2
3
0 0

Front Panel Tech Note No3

by rodsmallwood52＠btinternet.com

PDP-8/e Panel Variants I now have a list of _possible_ (not actual) variations. Its not quite the same as what I had before. In addition I have heard there may be colour variations in some cases. A is the current shipping version A No dividing lines between lamp groups Position 1 and 6 on select switch vertical B Dividing lines between lamp groups Position 1 and 6 on select switch vertical C No dividing lines between lamp groups Position 1 and 6 on select switch angled D Dividing lines between lamp groups Position 1 and 6 on select switch angled As these only involve artwork and silk screen frame changes I can use the same plexiglas blanks for them Whats the next most popular PDP-8 after the /e? Any ideas ? Rod

11 years

2
2
0 0

SIO2SD for Atari 8-bits - Just got one.

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

that is neat where can we get one!? In a message dated 6/13/2015 4:28:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, terry at webweavers.co.nz writes: I'm in awe of people who can build and design these devices http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-06-13-sio2sd-for-atari.htm Terry (Tez)

11 years

3
2
0 0

PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

John - Ref your 8S below - Happy to add this to the list. any other good background info as to prior users etc? yes if you can get the S/N will add that. I need to get the S/N of the SMECC one too I will have to take 3 helpers over to warehouse to exhume it. I will also get the S/N on the classic 8 in blue cabinet (alas missing its front desk) heck I may just try to fit that in the Mini Room at the museum too with the glassed in cards table top that is there. There is also a spare front panel assembly for a straight 8 there that I remember putting there 20 years ago may have crack in corner way towards edge though and has switches cables etc... No promises but it should be there ( an no promises how log it will be to get it out!).. Is there anyone out there that needs this assembly? something totally off topic from the 8S machines there are some trs80 radio shack things that are huge like the MODEL 2 was but these were later and had a 3 number designator ? there are many as I remember one will be kept another kept for offsite displays but the others will goooooooo........ sorry to do so many messages in the 8S topic thread tonight but I was asleep for a day with massive migraine and am trying to catch up. Ed# In a message dated 6/12/2015 3:47:07 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, wilson at dbit.com writes: Didn't see mine on there. PDP-8/S, serial # unknown (it's in storage), needs restoration. I got it in Michigan about 20 years ago. John Wilson D Bit

11 years

6
9
0 0

PDP-8/S

by seefriek＠gmail.com

From: Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> > >I dunno, guys, that might be a little paranoid ... a lot of this >stuff is big and heavy ... I just can't imagine a thief coming >in and carting away PDP-11s, VAX-11s, RP/RL/TU drives, >IBM mainframes, whole racks and the like > Nope. My wife used to work in commercial real estate. The building supers that she was managing money for *routinely* had multi-hundred-pound to multi-ton thefts of copper and other resalable material, often ripped out of walls over the course of hours or days. Size/weight are *not* a deterrent to a guy who is willing to steal an industrial air conditioning unit with a meth-head buddy, a couple of strap wenches and a beat up pickup truck cart it away in. Now imagine I tell that same meth-head that I'd pay him 5 times as much as scrap rates to steal something like what he's used to stealing, probably better packaged, but in a residence (no security guards). A touch of paranoia is apropos. KJ ?

11 years

1
0
0 0

Coating on older DEC slides

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

So I have a bunch of older DEC slides (for BA11 boxes, RK05's, etc) which are rusty. No problem, I have a sand-blaster, but.... what's the grey coating on them, and how do I reproduce it once I have them clean? I saw Corey Cohen's really wonderful presentation at VCFE about restoring old computers, and afterwards I asked him if he knew anything, and he said that (from my description - alas, I didn't think to show him one in the display area) it sounded like a powder coat thing, and that people who do brake calipers can do power coating. However, when I went to my car guy for pointers to local people who do brake calipers, he looked at the coating, scraped at it a bit with a knife, and said it didn't look like powder coat to him. (Although maybe this is a very old powder coat, and he's only used to the newer stuff.) He reckoned it was just grey paint {visualize dubious-looking Noel - it sure doesn't look like paint to me}. So, what _is_ that grey coating - and, more important, how (if at all) can it be reproduced these days? Noel

11 years

7
7
0 0

SIO2SD for Atari 8-bits - Just got one.

by terry＠webweavers.co.nz

I'm in awe of people who can build and design these devices http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-06-13-sio2sd-for-atari.htm Terry (Tez)

11 years

2
1
0 0

Coating on older DEC slides

by couryhouse＠aol.com

Yes that is what was used... and yes too much is bad.. beryllium is way worse . William Hansen at varian died from itEd# ? Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Rod Smallwood <rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> Date: 06/13/2015 2:23 PM (GMT-07:00) To: General at classiccmp.org, "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Coating on older DEC slides Ever looked at an old radio chassis? They had what I was led to believe was a grey cadium plating over the steel The boxes BA11-ES and the like had I think a coat ing was some kind of Nickel My 11/34A has a greyish coating on the tiltable runners. On 13/06/2015 21:35, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > cadmium not? good? for? you... beryllium is? even? worse! >?? > Ed# >?? >?? > In a message dated 6/13/2015 12:51:52 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com writes: > > It might? be cadmium > > > On 13/06/2015 16:45, John Wilson wrote: >> On Sat,? Jun 13, 2015 at 11:20:19AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> So, what? _is_ that grey coating - and, more important, how (if at all) > can? it >>> be reproduced these days? >> Wild guess:? some kind? of oxide?? I agree that it doesn't look like paint >> or powder? coat. >> >> John Wilson >> D? Bit >

11 years

1
0
0 0

Coating on older DEC slides

by couryhouse＠aol.com

Yes I use it in Leica cameras in artic weather...... but is that what gives the slides that anodized look Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> Date: 06/13/2015 2:29 PM (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Coating on older DEC slides Specifically molybdenum disulphide, sometimes called Molycoat. It is for lubrication on high load surfaces. -- Will On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Al? Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote: > On 6/13/15 8:20 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> what's the grey coating on >> them > > > molybdenum > >

11 years

1
0
0 0

Coating on older DEC slides

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

cadmium not good for you... beryllium is even worse! Ed# In a message dated 6/13/2015 12:51:52 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com writes: It might be cadmium On 13/06/2015 16:45, John Wilson wrote: > On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 11:20:19AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> So, what _is_ that grey coating - and, more important, how (if at all) can it >> be reproduced these days? > Wild guess: some kind of oxide? I agree that it doesn't look like paint > or powder coat. > > John Wilson > D Bit

11 years

3
2
0 0

First VAX-11/730 VMS Boot! (was: Re: VAX-11/730 %BOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check)

by cctalk＠beyondthepale.ie

> > Using a version 58 console tape image provided to me by one list member, and > massaged into a usable state by another list member, I just booted > OpenVMS 7.3 off the R80 drive on my VAX-11/730 for the first time since > buying the machine. Woohoo! > Excellent! > > For some reason, I was unable to do that with the version 57 images that I > downloaded off the net. Maybe there's something wrong with the VMB.EXE on > those images? It always complained of not being able to find the boot file > when I tried using it. > Once you get logged in to VMS, I think it should be possible to use EXCHANGE to poke around the console tape images on the file level. It might be possible to find the reason for the problem that way? > > I never got a login prompt, but perhaps that's because I booted with the > write protect switch on? > VMS would try to write to the pagefile at some point but I think it would write a message (likely many messages!) on the console if that failed rather than sit there doing nothing. It probably hasn't hit the pagefile yet. > > It appeared to be trying to create or join a > VAXcluster for a while, then said something about loading MSCP disk server. > Before you do anything, make sure the ethernet network is properly connected or terminated appropriately. If configured to form a cluster, VMS will normally wait for a short period for the other cluster member(s) to appear on the cluster interconnect (usually the ethernet network) before continuing to boot. Try leaving it for a few minutes and you may then get something like: "VAXCluster state transition completed. Initialization continuing". Or you might not. In a cluster, each node contributes a number of votes to the cluster. None if the nodes will do anything until a cluster quorum is present (more than half the number of votes usually present in the cluster). If the machine just sits there indefinately after loading the MSCP disk server, you probably don't have enough cluster votes to proceed and the best thing to do is perform a conversational boot which usually involves setting the least significant bit of register R5 to 1 before booting. How exactly to do this varies from processor to processor and I don't know how to do it for an 11/730. When you manage to do this and try booting again, you should get a "SYSBOOT>" prompt and you could: SHOW VAXCLUSTER SHOW VOTES SHOW EXPECTED_VOTES SET VAXCLUSTER 0 SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 CONTINUE to confirm that the issue is with cluster votes, turn off clustering and proceed with the boot process. > I have plenty more experimentation ahead, including seeing what's on that > RL02 pack labeled something like "VMS53SYS" (if I recall correctly). > > My attempts to boot up the v5.3 standalone backup tape images I downloaded > still haven't succeeded. As suggested, I'll see if standalone backup might > be on another partition next time I work on the machine. I'd like to try > backing up both the R80 and the RL02 to tape if I can. > Not exactly a partition, more of use one of a number of different root directories in the same partition to start searching for files from. > > Eventually, I'd like to run an older version of VMS than 7.3 on it. > Preferably, something contemporary to when the 11/730 was still sold, or > at least from before any sane 730 users upgraded to newer and faster VAXen. > Of course, that assumes I can procure suitable installation media, or usable > images with which to create it. > I would suggest V5.5-2. This is likely newer than when the 11/730 was sold but I suspect that many an 11/730 would have been upgraded to this version while in service and ended their days on that version. It was regarded as a good stable place to be with few unaddressed issues and it would be increasingly difficult to get useful items such as a stable TCP/IP stack running on versions earlier than V5.5-2. Regards, Peter Coghlan.

11 years

3
5
0 0

Collectors pay big money for old tech

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Sean Caron > it's a shame if the financial barrier to entry to the hobby is keeping > potentially interested & enthusiastic people away... I understand and agree (very much!) with your concern, but I don't think it's going to be an issue: for every $1M Apple I, there are a zillion other old computers you can't even give away. (I know, I have recently tried! :-) So unless people are deterred by being unable to afford the very coolest and in-demand items, I think we're safe. Noel

11 years

2
1
0 0

Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers

by seefriek＠gmail.com

Thanks for the input everyone. In summary, I got recommendations for: - HP 16500C (lesser a 16500B, but not a 16500A) (mainframe) - HP 16700/16900/17500 (mainframe, bigger-faster-stronger, still pretty expensive, can use 16500 cards) - HP 166x or 167x (portable, modern, look for hard drive) - HP 165x (portable, older, only buy cheap, look for hard drive) - HP 1630D, 1630G or 1631 (old, HPIB and HPIL interfaces, no special software needed, but you apparently need be able to control it with an external HPIB controller to get the most out of it) - Tek 1240 - Gould Biomation K100D (software in rom, HPIB interface, assuming you need HPIB literacy to use effectively) - Tek DAS9200 (be careful to get the right pods (several variations), etc) - Tek TLA710/TLA720 (PC attached, Linux capable) General advice offered: - Look for hard drives or no special software required for longest life. Floppies required == bad. - Make really sure you get probes, and the right probes, for your kit. They're often not available separately for non-st00pid money. - There's a crazy array of ancillary features to consider: o-scope functions, processor assemblers/disassemblers, pattern generators, specialized inputs/outputs, timebases, embedded Unix machines, etc. Know what you might need. So I've got a lot of manuals to read, but the 16500C sure looks like a ton of bang per US$. You can even get an expansion chassis (10 additional slots) if you need to go to ludicrous speed on the number of probes/features. KJ

11 years

6
8
0 0

TRS80, other than model 1

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Fred and others - I stand corrected these are probably model 12 or maybe model 16... did they network the Xenix ones? maybe that is why there are many of them. I recall one large RS printer was with the group? Guess I should have looked closer last time I was in that area. on another topic we need trs 80 model 100 to give the college to go in the tools of the journalist display need not work just look nice.. reporters used these for field reporting . If you think about it many things are 'a tool of the journalist" gosh! we endowed them with candle stick phones, some various other old phones, old pens, old typewritters, studio and portable video cameras, video recorders in many sizes and formats ... the list goes on! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 6/13/2015 9:06:14 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: >> something totally off topic from the 8S machines there are some >> trs80 radio shack things that are huge like the MODEL 2 was but these were >> later and had a 3 number designator ? there are many as I remember one >> will be kept another kept for offsite displays but the others will >> goooooooo........ > I don't remember anything beyond the II/12/16 series, but no one tells > me anything. In addition to the model 1, . . . The model 1 line was converted from a "component" system to a single box. For those not familiar, it resembled a Northstar Dimension. Keyboard, screen, two 5.25" floppies in a terminal like case. That was the model 3. Default disk format was double density. Since the WD 179x controller could not write a truly exact model 1 format single density disk (did not support certain data address marks), there were some kludges and changes in TRS-DOS, so there were minor glitches in the "upgrade path". Radio Shack eventually cut a deal to market L-DOS as TRS-DOS 6. ("And Randy Cook is now finally collecting royalties!") Soon, the model 4 was made available - same basic machine with 80x24 video (V 51x16), green screen, a few missing keys provided, and ability to remap the ROM from the memory map. Finally, CP/M was available without memory remapping hardware, nor software kludge of having TPA not in low RAM. The college got a whole lab full of model 3's converted into model 4's, at a price per each that was only slightly more than buying new model 4's. Model 4P was luggable version, vaguely resembling early Compaq. Model 2 wasn't what I would call "huge", but such is relative. It was completely unrelated to model 1, other than name, and naming it's OS (mutually incompatible with model 1/3) "TRS-DOS". But, CP/M was also available. It had an 8" drive, and "huge" external case if you wanted more than one. Radio Shack came out with a 68000 CPU board! and Xenix It could be used instead of the Z80 CPU, or have BOTH! (12 and 16) In terms of "huge", there were a few other machines that rarely, if ever, actually made it to market, such as the "Tandy 10", built into a desk, and sold exclusively through "Radio Shack Computer Center"s. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

11 years

4
3
0 0

VK 170 CA card M7142

by jwsmail＠jwsss.com

I have a friend with some of these who would like to get a full set of data on this card. He has the handbook writeup with the jumper settings and some other info. Would like full disclosure, schematics, engineering info, etc. This board is a Q bus card which has keyboard interface, and display RS-170 video out. Generates an 80 x 25 display with refresh memory supplying the information. Also includes an EIA RS-423 serial interface. These are in systems which integrate small PDP 11 type systems to form terminals, etc. Thanks Jim

11 years

1
0
0 0

PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

well it is amazing what people that want meth will do... they remind me of the creatures mutated in I AM LEGEND but that is why Will needs to add a good alarm system on his building and get 2 friends... the pitbulls named byteemintheass and snapoffurballs if they in case the alarm system fails. In a message dated 6/13/2015 9:25:27 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Sat, 13 Jun 2015, John Wilson wrote: > Re theft: yeah there's no way a random house burglar would bother Are the middle of the night, in the rain, in the gutter, catalytic converter thefts actually worth it? Besides theft issues, there can be additional reasons for anonymity. consider the possibilities of unwanted contact. Does Homeland Insecurity care what you are doing with it? Zoning board? Ex-wife? electric rates of domestic V industrial "Do you have permits for the rewiring?" "Can I bring my friends over to see it?" "Are your licenses paid up for all of OUR software?" spammers harvesting the list? "Will you make me a copy of the software? I'll pay for the media" "Sell me the handle from the switch. I'll even pay for the postage!" "Buy mine!" "Buy my uncle's Dell computers, they're just as old" "Loan it to us to shoot a movie. We'll even pay its fair value for any damage in the car crashes and explosions" If I had one, I'd brag about it.

11 years

1
0
0 0

TRS80, other than model 1

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

yea osborne was 50 or 51... In a message dated 6/13/2015 9:33:00 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: > Soon, the model 4 was made available - same basic machine with 80x24 video (V > 51x16), ooops. 64 characters per line on the 1. Maybe it was Osborne 1 with 51?

11 years

1
0
0 0

TVGA8900C disks

by sales＠elecplus.com

Sorry, I deleted the posts from earlier from someone looking for TVGA software. I have at least the TVGA 8900C Disk 2 Utilities disk, on 5.25" floppy. Disk 1 will probably turn up soon. Is this what was wanted? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls

11 years

1
0
0 0

PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Al if you can run him down and find s/n's that would be great... what are the s/n's at CHM on their units? Ed# In a message dated 6/12/2015 2:25:30 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: On 6/10/15 12:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> I know of 17 PDP-8/S systems, including four at the RICM. > Last I heard, John Bordynuik still had one or two of them, but I haven't spoken to him in years.

11 years

2
1
0 0

PDP-8/S

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Fred Cisin > If somebody were to try to make a "complete" list, it would make sense > to provide variable levels of anonymity > ... > Prob'ly some people would be more willing to discuss what they have IFF > they aren't opening themselves to theft risk, and/or a deluge of "I'd > like to buy". Let me second that. Particularly as the value of these things goes up, security will be a real issue for people. As I like to say, the _good_ thing about the Internet is that it brings the world to your doorstep; and the _bad_ thing about the Internet is that it brings the world to your doorstep... Noel

11 years

6
6
0 0

PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Well... we will accept anonymous entries for the list that will be public but the submitter will have to send us a nice photo of the unit with s/n tag etc and their smiling face next to it for the non published files! <<grin!>> I think the only people this month that have to worry about theft are those with Apple I systems after this months news story on values.. Ed# In a message dated 6/13/2015 12:24:11 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, scaron at umich.edu writes: I dunno, guys, that might be a little paranoid ... a lot of this stuff is big and heavy ... I just can't imagine a thief coming in and carting away PDP-11s, VAX-11s, RP/RL/TU drives, IBM mainframes, whole racks and the like ... I can hardly move some of this stuff I have as one guy and it is certainly a loud, time-consuming, sweaty process ... not to mention, how would anyone go about fencing something like that? I don't think the local pawn shop will want it ... imagine a giant illicit market for stolen computers, like for stolen artwork? LOL. I'm not so sure. If someone wants to keep their QTH anonymous that's cool and totally your business but I suspect most intruders really couldn't care less about old computers... but who knows. Maybe all this stuff will turn out to be the Old Masters of the digital age and we'll all be rich! :O Best, Sean On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote: > > From: Fred Cisin > > > If somebody were to try to make a "complete" list, it would make > sense > > to provide variable levels of anonymity > > ... > > Prob'ly some people would be more willing to discuss what they have > IFF > > they aren't opening themselves to theft risk, and/or a deluge of "I'd > > like to buy". > > Let me second that. Particularly as the value of these things goes up, > security will be a real issue for people. > > As I like to say, the _good_ thing about the Internet is that it brings the > world to your doorstep; and the _bad_ thing about the Internet is that it > brings the world to your doorstep... > > Noel >

11 years

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PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

good point Simon! Ed# In a message dated 6/13/2015 2:57:09 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, simski at dds.nl writes: Well, its the same with enigma's. all remaining machines are registered with their serialnumbers, So selling after stealing becomes very difficult. that is why a database with serialnumbers connected to people is crucial. On 13-06-15 09:55, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I think the only people this month that have to worry about theft are > those with Apple I systems after this months news story on values.. > > Ed# -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl

11 years

1
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PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

That is a beauty! You moved all that gear from UK to USA? In a message dated 6/12/2015 2:26:10 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, tmfdmike at gmail.com writes: I have one, restored, was running when stored but not powered up in some considerable time. Serial number unknown; IIRC correctly the tag with the serial number was missing so may remain unknown. Obtained from a collector called Erik in... Netherlands I think, circa 2004... who got it from John Bradatanu... IIRC I traded a TU56, a pdp-8/L, and some other bits, for the 8/S and a working VT05.. see pic on this page: http://www.corestore.org/coremove.htm Pics on that page are interesting, as it's the only time around 90% of the DEC portion of the Corestore collection has all been lined up and visible in the same place at the same time! Oh 8/m has been discussed in front panel talk... here's a nice pic of mine: http://www.corestore.org/pdp8m-1.jpg Mike On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:56 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: >>> I know of 17 PDP-8/S systems, including four at the RICM. >> >> Not everyone wants their collections to be public information but: > > > If somebody were to try to make a "complete" list, it would make sense to > provide variable levels of anonymity, such as name but not contact info, > state but no name, email but no other contact, etc. If designed well, that > could be managed by a full information form in which it is easy, and > acknowledged to be acceptable, to fill in only items that are intended to be > public. > > Prob'ly some people would be more willing to discuss what they have IFF they > aren't opening themselves to theft risk, and/or a deluge of "I'd like to > buy". > > NOTE: I do not currently have ANY PDP stuff, so I am only speculating about > what others would like. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

11 years

1
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PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Rich. did you want physical address listed too? also need both s/n's corrected url at _www.smecc.org/pdp-8.htm_ (http://www.smecc.org/pdp-8.htm) That address has not been current since 2010 or so. Please use http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org instead. Thanks! Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

11 years

1
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HP 3082A ("Industrial Touch") Terminal service manual or other info?

by derschjo＠gmail.com

Hi all -- The lovely HP 3082A terminal I've been using with my PDP-11/73 has started exhibiting odd/annoying behavior today. The 3082A is also known as the "Industrial Touch" terminal, it's a compact unit in a rugged housing with an EL display, built in keyboard, and a touchscreen. At powerup, it normally gives a few short beeps and starts normal operation. As of today, it gives one continuous beep for 31 seconds (I timed it), after which it works fine -- until the next time it needs to emit a beep (a ^G, for example) and then it beeps for 31 seconds again. This is, to be quite honest, intolerable :). The manuals on hpmuseum.net are limited to configuration/user manuals and the brief troubleshooting it recommends actually *does* mention the continuous beeping symptom, but gives no suggestions for causes, and suggests as a fix to (a) try turning it off and on again (I've done that...) and (b) replace the terminal (can't do that). I've also tried resetting the terminal config (hold down Help + . at powerup) and this has no effect. The terminal passes all built-in self tests. Anyone happen to have any experience with these, or know where a service manual might be found? If I at least knew what the 31-second beep signified I could start looking... Thanks, Josh

11 years

1
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PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

PDP-S ( and Classic 8 too) in the intake form . . yes we are working up an entry for with different fields in it. Be aware though as soon as you say you HAVE ONE OF THOSE on this list or any other you have tagged yourself as having one. if someone wants your details it does not take too much research.... Ed# In a message dated 6/12/2015 6:43:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes: > From: Fred Cisin > If somebody were to try to make a "complete" list, it would make sense > to provide variable levels of anonymity > ... > Prob'ly some people would be more willing to discuss what they have IFF > they aren't opening themselves to theft risk, and/or a deluge of "I'd > like to buy". Let me second that. Particularly as the value of these things goes up, security will be a real issue for people. As I like to say, the _good_ thing about the Internet is that it brings the world to your doorstep; and the _bad_ thing about the Internet is that it brings the world to your doorstep... Noel

11 years

1
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PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

That is NEAT! what application are they using it for and who is doing the maint. on it? Probably an interesting story there! Ed# In a message dated 6/12/2015 5:48:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, tdk.knight at gmail.com writes: been told of one in winnipeg. havent seen it to confirm though (winnipeg canada) thats still in use

11 years

1
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PDP-8/S

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Heh! The will have to pry my PDP 8 from my cold dead hands to get it <<grin!>> In a message dated 6/13/2015 1:14:19 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, tmfdmike at gmail.com writes: I have an old computer collection in the workshop. I also have a gun collection in the house :-) If anyone can *still* successfully make off with my pdps, they can bloody have them! :D Mike On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 2:52 AM, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> wrote: > I dunno, guys, that might be a little paranoid ... a lot of this stuff is > big and heavy ... I just can't imagine a thief coming in and carting away > PDP-11s, VAX-11s, RP/RL/TU drives, IBM mainframes, whole racks and the like > ... I can hardly move some of this stuff I have as one guy and it is > certainly a loud, time-consuming, sweaty process ... not to mention, how > would anyone go about fencing something like that? I don't think the local > pawn shop will want it ... imagine a giant illicit market for stolen > computers, like for stolen artwork? LOL. I'm not so sure. If someone wants > to keep their QTH anonymous that's cool and totally your business but I > suspect most intruders really couldn't care less about old computers... but > who knows. Maybe all this stuff will turn out to be the Old Masters of the > digital age and we'll all be rich! :O > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > wrote: > >> > From: Fred Cisin >> >> > If somebody were to try to make a "complete" list, it would make >> sense >> > to provide variable levels of anonymity >> > ... >> > Prob'ly some people would be more willing to discuss what they have >> IFF >> > they aren't opening themselves to theft risk, and/or a deluge of "I'd >> > like to buy". >> >> Let me second that. Particularly as the value of these things goes up, >> security will be a real issue for people. >> >> As I like to say, the _good_ thing about the Internet is that it brings the >> world to your doorstep; and the _bad_ thing about the Internet is that it >> brings the world to your doorstep... >> >> Noel >> -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

11 years

1
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Collectors pay big money for old tech

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Well ... some things really are not more expensive... the money is just worth less back when I used to buy pdp-8 computers for 100-200 dollars ... like 24+ years ago cars were a bunch cheaper too by far.... There are some things that went crazy like the Apple I but there is still a lot of interesting things around especially if you are willing to go out to sales and scrap yards etc. Then remember there is the 'art' of anticipating what will be considered a classic or totally cool and grab some on the time line point of near obsolescence and when others finally figure out it is cool... Two computers come to mind on that for us was Cobalt cube ( got a cobalt rack unit to keep it company too) and a Next cube system Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 6/13/2015 12:24:00 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, scaron at umich.edu writes: It's too bad that I catch myself thinking this so frequently these days, but "thank goodness I got mine" ... before the scene blew up... I guess the good times of just pulling carloads of cool stuff out of the dumpster for nothing couldn't go on forever... I do tend to agree; at least it's getting preserved; but it's a shame if the financial barrier to entry to the hobby is keeping potentially interested & enthusiastic people away... Like you, I'd rather see someone playing with the machine; taking it apart; fooling around; not having it just sit there in a glass case or being just another addition to some guy's hoard who just has to have it all... Best, Sean On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 2:48 AM, Ian S. King <isking at uw.edu> wrote: > The down side is that some historically significant artifacts will be > purchased by rich twits who will stick them in a closet or a display case. > The up side is that those same artifacts didn't go to the skip, as they did > all too often, all too recently. And history demonstrates that they will > come back out of those closets (or garages, in the case of vintage > automobiles and motorcycles) and end up in the hands of preservationists. > > We're seeing a tipping point where at least some people are beginning to > see the urgency of preserving our digital *hardware* legacy, even if profit > is the driver. As I said, it's not going into a dumpster.... -- Ian > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:24 AM, Kevin Parker <trash80 at internode.on.net> > wrote: > > > May be of interest to some list members - appeared in the Sydney Morning > > Herald Digital Life section yesterday. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately I'm not one of the big spenders. > > > > > > > > I know the story about the $200,000 Apple has got a fair airing but some > of > > the other numbers being quoted here frighten me. > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/discarded-apple-i-worth > > -us200000-collectors-pay-big-money-for-old-tech-20150610-ghfmlu.html > > > > > > > > > > > > ++++++++++ > > > > Kevin Parker > > > > > > > > ++++++++++ > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu> > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org> > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org> > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." >

11 years

1
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Amiga Fans

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

We have an Amiga with the Newtek video goodies inside but alas are missing the keyboard was given to us by one of our cable station folks here in AZ Does anyone have extra keyboards!? Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 6/13/2015 12:24:21 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, scaron at umich.edu writes: Aha, West Michigan! I know WOOD TV 8... I've got an Amiga 500 myself that came from Cable Access TV in Kalamazoo. A friend of mine still in town has a few more. Whodathunkit ... there's still some neat vintage gear out there in the wild up here in MI after all :O Funny. There's a legacy system for ya. Best, Sean On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Peter Cetinski <pete at pski.net> wrote: > +1 to you Amiga fans > > http://woodtv.com/2015/06/11/1980s-computer-controls-grps-heat-and-ac/ < > http://woodtv.com/2015/06/11/1980s-computer-controls-grps-heat-and-ac/> > > I love the part about the high school student who originally programmed it > and still maintains it to this day! > >

11 years

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Ebay GT-40 in the Netherlands

by jws＠jwsss.com

DEC-Digital-1972-GT40-vector-graphics-system-PDP11-PDP-11 http://www.ebay.com/itm/231477915161 If I could afford it I wouldn't sweat the shipping cost. I think someone had posted what board did the graphics. Has that ever been given consideration for being added to SIMH for the 11? I'd love to run Lander, which I think is running on the system as shown. To Al: There was also a system like this at USL, which I wish had been conveyed to you. I suspect it was not. There was a new in the box replacement CRT because someone had had the system halt and burned the phosphor. You had to watch the system and never let the dot stop. If it stopped at a spot on the phosphor in the on position, you'd etch the phosphor. Ours (USL) never ran anything but Lander, so until someone with a project came along, we were saving the tube. The burn didn't affect lander much at all. thanks Jim

11 years

7
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Need help: Reading 800 bpi NRZI 9 track tapes

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Might check with Al over at CHM - I have been told he has every format known to man covered. Ed# SMECC.org In a message dated 6/12/2015 4:02:26 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 06/12/2015 03:23 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Jun 12, 2015, at 14:54 , Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: >> >> My Qualstar 3418 has gone kaput and I need to find someone to read single (Unix) tape written on a TU16 at 800 BPI. I can handle 1600, 3200 and 6250 just fine, but not 800. >> >> Would anyone in the US be willing to help out? I can ship some money your way if that matters. The tape has been baked and cleaned, so no sticky problems. > > Another list member who lives in my area has offered to loan me his SCSI magtape drive so I can try to dump some tapes created on my VAX-11/730. If that all comes together (and assuming it will handle 800 BPI), I'd be happy to help. My plan is to hook it up to my Sun Ultra 60 running Solaris 8. I'm in southern California. > Much appreciated, Mark--800 bpi NRZI is uncommon; my Qualstar could handle it only as read-only. Keep me posted! Thanks, Chuck

11 years

1
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ISO: Sun lunchbox vertical stand

by dave＠661.org

Last year or so someone offered up one or two vertical stands for Sun lunchbox chassis. I put my hand up for one and never heard more about it. Might that original person still have the stands? Does anyone else have some stands available? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

11 years

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VAX-11/730 %BOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check

by cctalk＠beyondthepale.ie

> > The issue that I'm having at the moment is that when I try to boot from either > that RL02 pack or the R80, VMB.EXE reports "%BOOT-F-Unable to locate BOOT > file". I don't know yet whether there's something not-right about the > contents of the hard drives, or I need to configure something (?) so VMB.EXE > knows what to look for. There can be more than one system root on a VMS system disk, typically one each for different nodes in a cluster, maybe under [SYS0], [SYS10], [SYS11] etc and standalone backup can sometimes be found under [SYSE], if installed. "Unable to locate BOOT file" may indicate that you are not reading the correct system root or it may indicate that the disk is not bootable or maybe something entirely different. I am not well up on the 11/730 and I hope someone more familiar with their system specific details will chime in. On some other VAX machines but probably not an 11/730, the [SYSE] root would be booted by entering something like: boot /R5:E0000000 <device> or maybe: boot /R5:E000000 <device> or maybe even: boot <device>/E0000000 or boot <device>/E000000 > The boot scripts on the console boot tape appear to set up VMB.EXE by shoving > numbers into some registers prior to loading it, and I have not yet located > any documentation about what the numbers mean. If it is like other VAX variants that I am familar with, the top eight bits (or maybe four bits - I forget which?) of the 32 bit number that ends up in register R5 is what selects the system root you end up attempting to boot. > > I wonder if I might be able to back up the hard drives to an absurd number > of emulated TU58 images, so that I could then examine those on my modern > machine? > That sounds plausable. If you backup to a saveset on the emulated TU58, BACKUP should prompt you to change emulated tapes each time they fill up. > > I could probably back up onto magtape, but I don't have another means to > read the tapes yet. I have another tape drive (which needs repair) that > I'll eventually include in my PDP-11/44 restoration, but that's a big > project, far in the future. > Good luck with that one! > > I wonder if the VMS5.3 standalone backup might know how to back up to some > network device? I have an ethernet card in the VAX, so that might be a way > to get data off the machine for examination. > Standalone backup is not network aware. You need to get VMS booted before you get to use the network. > > Any suggestions or clues would be greatly appreciated! I'm still learning how > to tell the chickens from the eggs. > Looks like you're doing well so far! Regards, Peter Coghlan.

11 years

8
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Amiga Fans

by pete＠pski.net

+1 to you Amiga fans http://woodtv.com/2015/06/11/1980s-computer-controls-grps-heat-and-ac/ <http://woodtv.com/2015/06/11/1980s-computer-controls-grps-heat-and-ac/> I love the part about the high school student who originally programmed it and still maintains it to this day!

11 years

3
2
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Wierd reply addresses

by fozztexx＠fozztexx.com

On Jun 12, 2015, at 5:04 AM, Vincent Slyngstad <v.slyngstad at frontier.com> wrote: > There seem to be a number of messages from various folks > where the reply address has been rewritten to General at classiccmp.org<General at classiccmp.org>;Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>; > instead of > General Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>; > > What is that about? Could it be related to me getting delayed second copies of stuff? It happens because there?s some older mail clients being used which incorrectly parse the email address and create the general at classiccmp.org address when replying. The problem with the duplicate messages is because messages from the cctalk list are also relayed to the moderated cctech mailing list, and vice-versa. What happens is the messages from cctalk go over to cctech, get approved, and then get sent back to the cctalk list. From my understanding of the mailing list software being used, it doesn?t have any built-in facility to prevent duplicates by checking for messages with the same Message-ID, and would require someone to spend a little time to cobble a helper script together, but no-one has yet, so the message duplication has continued for a year or so now. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com

11 years

3
3
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First VAX-11/730 VMS Boot! (was: Re: VAX-11/730 %BOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check)

by cctalk＠beyondthepale.ie

> > Thanks, that works! I also turned off write lock, which makes it happier. > Great :-) > > Wow, that boot sure takes forever. What the heck is it *doing* for all of > that time? :) > If you want speed, you need an Alpha, not a VAX :-) There could be all sorts of stuff in the startup file (SYS$STARTUP:SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM) that you don't need. Going back to an earlier version of VMS should help too - V7.3 probably has all sorts of stuff that is more appropriate on a later, faster VAX. > > And at the moment, it's still booting, as I sip my morning coffee. Just > started printing like heck and beeping... Ah, it's printing all of the > licenses that have terminated. Maybe I should have lied about the date? Looks > like the hostname is PIKE. Sure glad my iPhone boots more quietly. > You can get a free hobbyist license if you join whatever DECUS is called now. > > VMS use not authorized on this node. I sure hope it won't enforce that > before I can try a backup! > It will allow SYSTEM to login on the console without a license. > > Finally! A login prompt! And no clue about the passwords. Uh, how can I shut > this beast down without a valid login? !? > You can't. Just halt it or turn it off. VMS won't mind. None of that sync / fsck stuff required. The filing system is already consistent (that's one of the reasons it's boots so slow...) If you look for a copy of the VMS FAQ on the net, there should be a section on how to reset passwords. Here's a quick summary of one method: Go back to your conversational boot but this time enter: SET VAXCLUSTER 0 SET /STARTUP OPA0: SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 CONTINUE When you get a $ prompt, enter (carefully, without any typos or you get to start all over again): SET NOON SPAWN /NOWAIT SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM When the startup finishes, press enter again and you should get back to your $ prompt. SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM RUN AUTHORIZE MODIFY SYSTEM /PASSWORD=<new password> /NOPWDEXP /NOPWDLIFE EXIT LOGOUT Then login in. When you want to shut down gracefully: @SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN Regards, Peter Coghlan.

11 years

2
1
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Collectors pay big money for old tech

by trash80＠internode.on.net

May be of interest to some list members - appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald Digital Life section yesterday. Unfortunately I'm not one of the big spenders. I know the story about the $200,000 Apple has got a fair airing but some of the other numbers being quoted here frighten me. http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/discarded-apple-i-worth -us200000-collectors-pay-big-money-for-old-tech-20150610-ghfmlu.html ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++

11 years

3
2
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IBM 9335 doc needed.

by h.j.stegeman＠hccnet.nl

Hi, I am currently restoring an IBM 9370. The IPL drive needs to be re-initted. (The diag track fails.) How to do this I need the IBM 9335-A01 SERVICE GUIDE (probably SY33-0113, but not sure) Who can help me with a copy of this manual ? Regards Henk

11 years

1
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