- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by dwalterm＠ix.netcom.com

James Willing <jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com> wrote: > While wandering around one of my favourite surplus gear haunts today, I cam > across a couple of HP 1000 F series minicomputers. While they look neat, I > know just about nothing about them. Anyone out there familiar enough with > them to give me the 'infamous 25 words or less' speech on their significance? They're real-time control systems, based around the 21MX processor family (which succeeded the 2100 (ca. 1972) and 211[456] (ca. 1967)) and running one of several flavors of HP's RTE operating system. I've never actually used them. I worked on them for years.... You will still find them in Nuclear Power Plant control rooms, all phases of automotive testing and even handling online ATM transactions. The E series was even used as a fast front end for Burroughs mainframes. Also lots of military applications. The front panel/door drops down to show the memory backplane. The top three boards are the two channel DMA, Memory Protect and MEM (Memory Expansion Controller). This was needed if you wanted to use more than 32K of memory. The back backplane was for the I/O cards. Near the bottom is the TBG (Time Base Generator). The Model 2117F had more slots and the hardware floating point processor was a separate box. The more rare version had the Floating Point boards built into the top of the regular case. This meant a loss of memory and I/O slots.... These systems had all kinds of I/O available from paper tape puches/readers to mag tapes to all kinds of hard disk drives, floppies, terminals, A/D, other instrumentation, etc. Later they had SCSI and various proprietary and standard networking. Lots of great memories :-)

28 years, 5 months

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Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 06:20 PM 11/18/97 +0000, you wrote: >the following info: (1) The definition is bendable, as circimsances dicatate, >(2) The definition is pretty much fine as it is, but (3) (The BIG one) Many Ultimately, the definition is up to Bill Whitson. If people start talking about stuff he's not interested in, or that he doesn't feel to be the provenance of this list, he'll a) warn people, b) unsubscribe people, or c) shut the list down. So personally, because I certainly don't want b) or c) to happen, and I'd rather a) didn't have to, I'll stick to the topics Bill had in mind when creating this list. If I'm really desperate to talk about which 486 motherboards are collectible, I'll start my own collect486 list. >computers will NOT be significant classics... origionally, as has been pointed >out, the "10 year" rule was to make sure that IBMs weren't included... first the I think it was set so as to avoid current/mainstream computer support questions. (Which I'm sure most of the people on this list could answer, but that's not why they've subscribed to this list.) The (admittedly debateable) position that generic PC's are *not* significant/collectible/etc. and thusly are not the provenance of this list is a (IMO) welcome side effect. (Note: some pc's *are* significant or collectible -- lots of portables, the corner case one (packard bell?), monorails, Kip's Rose Hill PC (to Kip), etc. -- they're just not the focus of this list.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 5 months

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Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 06:57 AM 11/18/97 -0800, you wrote: >At 09:04 11/18/97 +0000, you wrote: >>I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to >>be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic >>analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal Another thought... I've not yet figured out how to squeeze >24 hours in a day, and I've got about 54 hours worth of stuff to do every day, so anything that saves a little time is welcome. >where I'm at someone's house for dinner, and they say "Oh, BTW, my >computer's not working," and I didn't bring a screwdriver and they don't >own a #2 Phillips. Some people (esp. on this list) may not realize it, but there are actually hordes of people out there who go their entire lives without ever owning a single screwdriver. Which is why I've got two in/on my laptop case, several in my laptop "kit", and a swiss army knife with a flat sd, phillips sd, pliers, and (8^) corkscrew. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 5 months

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Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 09:04 AM 11/18/97 +0000, you wrote: >I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to >be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic >analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal It's not so much for *fixing* as it is for *upgrading*. If you want to swap in a new floppy drive or add memory or what-have-you, it's much easier on some computers than others. S-100's were great in some respects -- just lift the ears and the boards pop right out. Or, drop 'em in the channels and they slide right in. The Mac 8500AV, on the other hand, requires nearly a complete disassembly just to add some memory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 5 months

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Heathkit H-11

by rcini＠email.msn.com

What do you think of this... I have a guy in Jacksonville FL with a Heathkit H11 system. CPU, dual 8" disk drive unit, all software and manuals. Cost of shipping (to NY). Is the H11 just a repackaged PDP-11?? What else can you tell me about it? Rich Cini/WUGNET <rcini(a)msn.com> - ClubWin! Charter Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Networking

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton REQUIRED

by engine＠chac.org

At 14:02 11/18/97 -0800, Tim wrote: >.... Some drives have even removed the >drive select jumper options, forcing you to use the half-baked concept >of a cable with a twist in the middle. Half-baked, yet burned. ____________________________________________________________ Kip Crosby, honcho, mechanic and sole proprietor, Kip's Garage http://www.kipsgarage.com: rumors, tech tips and philosophy for the trenches Coming Spring '98: The Windows 98 Bible by Kip Crosby and Fred Davis!

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton REQUIRED

by manney＠nwohio.com

> Age, also, alone, does not make a classic. I doubt that the standard >run-of-the-mill '386 PeeCee will ever amount to anything except to, >perhaps, archaeologists who dig one out of a landfill. There were too >many of them made, and they were (are) regarded as "disposable". Look >at the construction - modern machines aren't made to be repaired any >more than a disposable cigarette lighter is made to be refilled. They >burn out, you toss' em, and buy another one. Well, not quite. You'll have a motherboard problem with Packard Bell, Compaq and the like -- but many use "generic" motherboards; thus a Baby AT case would fit anything from a 286 to a Pentium whatever (btw, shouldn't a P5 be called a Pentium Pro Lite?) Floppy disks, of course, have been standardized since the original PC, both in interface and form factor; EIDE/SCSI for hard disks, IDE for CD-ROM's. I upgrade PC's much of the time (probably sell 10 used systems/upgrades to 1 new system) and can tell you that upgrading _is_ viable in the PC world.

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton REQUIRED

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

As I recall, there's a little app around someplace that allows you to put whatever you want on the Wyse front panel display. > -----Original Message----- > From: PG Manney [SMTP:manney@nwohio.com] > Sent: Monday, November 17, 1997 10:29 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: New Definiton REQUIRED > > > another weird feature on Wyse 286 that can show time and > >date, mhz display like 8mhz, 12mhz and backlighted! :) > > Hey, I just had one of those come in for repair! The hard drive table aldo > has double digit numbers, something I've never seen before. >

28 years, 5 months

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Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED

by engine＠chac.org

At 18:20 11/18/97 +0000, Hotze wrote: >....pretty soon, we'll be getting in to a >time where the words "IBM Compatible" are going to get replaced with "PC." The >fact is, there are just too darn many 386s to contemplate... we have a few >options... (1) Allow only the first/last (IE Deskpro 386 first, I don't know >about last).... Nuh uh. ALR 386 first, Compaq second. The ALR 386 is one of the most collectible of all Intel boxes. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California

28 years, 5 months

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IBM 5100

by michaelg＠gray.mb.ca

I own two complete IBM 5100 systems. My original machine was fully loaded with 64k and both APL and BASIC in ROM. It also had the serial I/O card and I used to remotely access the machine with an ASR33 teletype at 110(?) baud. With the proprietary vertical market software plus the IBM software, I paid about $64,000 in 1975(?), or about a buck a byte. The other, purchased ten years later for spares, has BASIC only and I forget the amount of memory. I also have the entire library of IBM software released for these machines and all documentation including the service manuals. I have two external tape drives and two printers as well and boxes and boxes of tapes. I wrote a fully-funcional word-processor in APL for use with the "Paper Tiger"-series printers. I wrote over 100 user manuals on this machine and output camera-ready copy. If anyone out there needs any info or assistance with the 5100, perhaps I can help. -- Michael. -----------------------------------------------+------------------------ Michael Gillespie | Voice/Fax 204.943.9000 President, Telecommunities Canada Inc. | michaelg(a)tc.ca President, The Gray Research Group | michaelg(a)gray.mb.ca Project Manager, Blue Sky Community Networks | michaelg(a)freenet.mb.ca --- No good deed will go unpunished. ---- Standard Disclaimers Apply ---

28 years, 5 months

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Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED

by allisonp＠world.std.com

From: HOTZE <photze(a)batelco.com.bh> <computers will NOT be significant classics... origionally, as has been poin <out, the "10 year" rule was to make sure that IBMs weren't included... firs <IBM/PC, then the IBM XT, then the AT, and pretty soon, we'll be getting in Where in the world did that come from? Since anything greater than 10 years old would have been made in 1987 or before there is a whole class of PCs, XTs, and even ATs that fit. However, 386s(barely), 486s and P5s do not. Also I think the idea of the list was to not help me be a general "help me fix my PC forum". it's a common problem that new PC oowners are everywhere in every forums asking for help usually far from the topic and intent of the list (comp.os.cpm come to mind). I don't mean help with a older XT or PC but the "I just got a p6/233 and it doesn't...." stuff. 10 years, that's simple enough for most of us. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From: HOTZE <photze(a)batelco.com.bh> <(1) Are old/new Motherboards compatible (IE 300 Mhz now, 600 Mhz later) I don't know or care. Likely not but there are reasons I say so. <(2) Where on God's creation can the parts???? (As for the OS, I'll probably take Linux, or NT, but I though there was translation software for x86 written...) I can't solve your geography problem. Here in the USA Alphas are plentyful as in western europe. The news groups have several a week for sale. Yes there is DEC software for x86 emulation. All you need to do is spend money as most all of it is current enough to buy. It is far to new to even discuss it further here Alpha is a 90s machine! By definition not eligible for status here till 2000+. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton REQUIRED

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> > latest thing to come down the 'pike - it's all ASICs, custom silicon, <> > and surface mount stuff on wafer-thin boards. In short - not built <> > to last. Nor is it designed to. Surface mount offers compact and also better signal integrity for ultrafast logic. There are many good reasons for surface mount that are in the realm of quality improvement. Yes, it's take more skill to fix and some of the parts are not easy to come by. FYI in the industry there a few descriptions of part of the problem. Good, fast, cheap, pick two. Cost of repair exceeds value of unit. Fix/trash decision. Many machine were made the way they were because technology of the time balanced against cost were deciding factors. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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Data General model 6122 disk subsystem available

by pcoad＠wco.com

There is a local (Silicon Valley) guy who has a model 6122 disk subsystem with two packs. It has a capacity of 277MB and requires 3 phase power. Included are also some shipping cases for the packs. I believe that the subsystem weighs about 200-300 pounds. The dimensions are approximately 20" x 48" x 30". It was used with a Data General Eclipse S/140. My understanding is that the unit can be had for the price of shipping or for free you are willing to pick it up. I am willing to take care of the labor for packing and shipping. This unit will be scrapped soon if a home cannot be found for it. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html

28 years, 5 months

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Software Needed

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Hello... I just got that spiffy coco2 emulator, and I need software for it... Thanks in Advance, Tim D. Hotze

28 years, 5 months

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HD Floppies in DD Drives

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

> William Donzelli wrote: > > > says that they will last at least ten years. The best solution (other than > > mylar punched tape) is probably the older WORM drives (not MOs!), as they > > Purely out of morbid curiosity, has anybody ever considered making Tyvek > tape? The stuff is damned near impossible to tear and difficult even to > stretch enough to lose data. That is actually a very good idea. I shall dig out some tyvek samples and cut some inch-wide strips for initial tests. If this is OK, I shall contact the manufacturers. I'll post results here, but can't make any promises as to timescale. FWIW I kept some tyvek samples (from an office supplies catalogue) for use as gasket paper on my car. Works a treat on things like carburettors, gear levers, etc. Don't fancy trying it on cylinder heads, though... Philip.

28 years, 5 months

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For Trade: (New) Inmac 16 sector 5 1/4" floppy disks

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

I need some 5 1/4" 10-sector floppies for my various "classic/antique" machines. I thought that was what I was buying in a recent on-line auction. What I ended up with was 16-sector floppies. I don't even know what uses these; certainly nothing I have. Accordingly, I'm offering to trade for 10-sector versions. These are Inmac DS,DD, 16 hard sector 5 1/4" disks with envelopes. Quantity 30 (3 boxes of 10). Two boxes are still factory shrink-wrapped. The 3rd was until I opened it to verify that I'd gotten the wrong thing; none were used. Make a trade offer, or alternatively, does anyone know where and how much I might be able to just *buy* some 10-sectors? -Bill Richman bill_r(a)inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com

28 years, 5 months

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Model 100, again

by manney＠nwohio.com

>Ok, I still haven't been able to find out what's wrong with the LCD in my >Tandy Model 100 (the rest of the machine works fine, as I was able to tell >by blind-writing BASIC progs that beep the speaker). Just type PRINT CHR$(7), which will process ASCII BEL (Control G).

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by lfb107＠psu.edu

>In a message dated 97-11-17 12:20:14 EST, HOTZE put forth: >RE: the unix box, and the issue whether to power it up: >back in the 1980s i collected beer cans and it was clearly established that >cans were worth more if full, or emptied from the bottom so the drink tab was >left undisturbed and full 6packs were the most valuable, so i say if it's >left alone, it would be "worth" more. i have an unused ibm 5150 in the >original box with the original cardboard shipping disks along with the >original keyboard in its' box. they may not be worth a lot now, but will be >eventually, especially with their boxes and documentation. >david I think we are forgetting one thing. Sure the 7300 would technically be "worth" more still in the box, but there is a limit to what you'll be able to actually get. You see these things very often for free (3B2's as well) on the comp.sys.att newsgroup so what does that make it worth then? I would have to vote for "just use it." Any parts can be scavenged from PC's or usually for free on the ng. LeS

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 04:38 PM 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote: > EXACTLY!!!! There are people who collect baseball cards (Somehthing which > I DO NOT do) and leave them in the packaging.... they don't even know what > cards are inside.... for all they know, the information could lead them to I know a guy who has a collection of CA lottery tickets (the $1 scratch-off tickets) that is complete (except one that he missed). One of each type, unscratched. Sure, he could be missing out on $10k or something, but to him, having the collection is worth more. (He also has a collection of scratched ones.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 97-11-17 12:20:14 EST, HOTZE put forth: > You see... that's the thing... I don't have anywhere to start but HERE. I've > really only been REALLY interested in the PC business since '93, and > collecting classics since May... I don't have ANYTHING.... I don't know > anybody (except all of you lovely people out there....), and so I need > somewhere to start... IBMs seem to be what I'm good at (I program them now > as > a hobby, so I know x86) I would take an IBM/PC, or, if they're easy to find, > > a PC jr. well, gee, i have an extra pcjr and power supply laying around here... dont know what shipping would be, however. RE: the unix box, and the issue whether to power it up: back in the 1980s i collected beer cans and it was clearly established that cans were worth more if full, or emptied from the bottom so the drink tab was left undisturbed and full 6packs were the most valuable, so i say if it's left alone, it would be "worth" more. i have an unused ibm 5150 in the original box with the original cardboard shipping disks along with the original keyboard in its' box. they may not be worth a lot now, but will be eventually, especially with their boxes and documentation. david

28 years, 5 months

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Coco For "Sale"

by dfitts1＠pdq.net

Sirs, I received your name from Bill Yakowenko. I have a TRS-8080 Color Computer 2 with mod kit to solve the overheating problem and memory upgrade. My system also includes a disk drive, multi-pak interface, cassette recorder, x-pad graphics tablet, deluxe joysticks, external serial/parallel port interface, X-10 light/appliance controller, light pen, editor/assembler module and parts for an experimenter's I/O port. I also have OS-9 and numerous other programs and very much documentation including all original manuals. Finally, I have many Color Computer magazines, including almost every issue of Color Computer News. I'm interested in finding this equipment a good home at extremely low or no price other than postage. I'm not sure what services you provide but if you post messages such as the above would you please post this? Too, what is your website address? Thanks, David Fitts

28 years, 5 months

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tape readers unique solution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Could cut some canned trannys open that is touchy to light and fill They all are! 2n5777 is a good photodarlington I've used a few. <those sensors from dead mouses, you can use either IR LED or strong <light. (YES! those light bulbs generate lot of IR). At lower than optimum voltage the IR is very there! IR however penetrates some paper tapes real well (if oil soaked better than white light!). It's been years since I've built one but I could reproduce it in an afternoon or two if need be. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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HD Floppies in DD Drives

by engine＠chac.org

At 13:29 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >I don't think that indestructibility of the tape is the issue...the coating >is the problem -- sliding across the head. What are you gonna bond to Tyvek? No, no, no! Tyvek PUNCHED tape! Coat nothing! Build a carbide punch-head.... Pull it through whippin' fast, like Colossus. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California

28 years, 5 months

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help needed on a amiga 500

by darlene＠iamerica.net

It sounds like your machine needs a good cleaning, the disk drive is not reading the disk"maybe". I have four working commodore c64 computers, and the drives need to be cleaned. Even more after laying around for a long period of time. If your drive turns when you try to load something it sounds like it could be a dirty drive. It's not much to go on, but I have seen these small things stop folks in their tracks. good luck, bad eye bill.

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Um, Linux 2.0.30 now have Alpha support, PPC, 68k (amiga), 386, Mips, <Sparc, Ataris. Linux is Unix kind which you can source unix source <code to it by freely available complier and make 'em. I rememberd that after I sent the message. Old brain cells. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

I would vote to leave it alone, as this is a real classic untouched. John At 08:40 AM 11/16/97 -0800, you wrote: >You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas... > >In the last few days the collection received an AT&T UNIX PC (aka 7300, >3b1) in extremely good condition. It arrived with all of the original >docs, software, and mouse. The docs were unwrapped , and the mouse was in >its original foam packing. "Kind of nice when someone packs things away >properly" I thought. > >Well, its been a bit busy around the garage the last couple of weeks, so I >put the unit and its associated stuff on the shelf and covered it up for a >time. > >Last night, while I was working on a notebook (yes, one of those 'modern' >things) for one of my wife's friends, I decided to have another look at the >UNIX PC while I was waiting for a disk scan to finish... > >Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit (nothing >loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped >happily and started drawing little boxes on the screen as I recalled it >doing when it was starting up... > >However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it starts >to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a prompt >of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy drive >(it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is >looking for a floppy. > >Fine... so, I grab the binder containing the software distribution, open it >up... > >All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it starts to dawn on me, >that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; made >by the person who gave me the machine... "My father bought it for his >company, read the manuals and realized that he had no idea what he was >doing..." > >I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was released >(and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, open >the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put it on >the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK! > >And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or >just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I >have a fair amount of time to spend with it) > >No flame wars please, just the random philosophical question... > >-jim > >--- >jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > >

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Along the same lines.... While digging through one of my boxes of stuff for a part I found a partial S100 Jade Double density disk controller kit unassembled. Of course I remember why I had it, the person that gave it to me back in '82 wasn't up for the assembly task, raided it for parts and gave me the remains. At the time I wasn't interested in getting a 1793 based controller going as I was getting 765As for free and all the assistance >from it's designers I could use. Well guess what. I'm 98% of the way through assembling it. Then I have to assemble the source code as there are no disks but lots of listings in the manuals. It's z80 based in that it has its own CPU as a bus slave. Should be interesting to get going. Oh, all the missing parts are from my collection and a few are date coded before the board! It was all I had of some parts. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton REQUIRED

by fmc＠reanimators.org

HOTZE <photze(a)batelco.com.bh> wrote: > [...] if you remember, in the "welcome" message, it > said that it was hard to state the definiton of a classic... but 10 > years or older would do. I do not wish to offend the owner, but they > are one person, and they can make mistakes... and together, as a group, > the chances of making an accurate definiton are smaller with us. Right. Not too many people are going to agree on this. There's probably a few people out there who think the Atari Portfolio is a classic and I think it's under 10 years old. The IBM PC/AT is 13 years old now but I have difficulty thinking of it as a classic and I really couldn't care less. But the 10 year rule is simple and not without precedent (it's roughly the way other things are judged "antique" -- if I remember correctly the "magic number" is 100 years for furniture and housewares and 20 years for automobiles). That's why we have it, we know it's not perfect but it does provide a clear cutoff. (Aside to You Know Who You Are: knock it off, OK?) > Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer > which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer > market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." The > one evedeint place that requires revsion is the "historical signifiacne" Does it? The problem is that inside 10 years it's very difficult to judge historical significance. And just because it's older than 10 years doesn't make finding the historical significance any easier. I'm hard pressed to think of what was significant about the PC/AT, as near as I could tell at the time it was put to work as a bigger faster IBM PC, still running all the same old MS-DOS applications, still one at a time. And from conversations I've had with folks who were doing Unix stuff on the 80286 then, they didn't think 80286 protected mode was progress w/r/t the PDP-11. Well, what did the PC/AT have that the PC/XT didn't? 1.2MB minifloppies (although I saw those retrofit onto XT-class PCs), 16-bit slots, a cascaded interrupt controller to handle the additional interrupt request lines...and the A20 gate that let you get at another little chunk of RAM up above the 1MB boundary while still in real mode. Hmm. How many of these things do we consider historically significant now, and how many will we still consider significant in 5, 10, 25, 50, 100 years? -Frank McConnell

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still!

by carl.friend＠stoneweb.com

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Allison remarked to us: > You have three choices [for an Alpha OS] that I know of, OpenVMS > (my favorite), Digital Unix, or NT. I don't know that anyone has > done a UNIX port outside of digital. Linux has been successfully ported to the Alpha architecture. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________|

28 years, 5 months

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by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Hey all. I think its about time I de-lurk and introduce myself. My name is Bill, and I'm very interested in SwTPC and SSB stuff. We had a couple SwTPC 6800 systems in my high school way back when, and I'd love to see one again (or own one!). After signing up for the Classic Computer Rescue Squad, I started thinking, if a big old machine actually needed a rescue, what would we do? I mean, maybe we should collect info on how big these old things are, in terms of floor-space, tonnage, time to dismantle, and so on. Then, when a rescue call comes in, we could maybe decide if we can feasibly deal with it, and if anyone actually wants the thing. If only three guys show up to dismantle 200 tons of vacuum tubes, it isn't gonna happen on-schedule. And it's one thing to keep a mini in a corner, but not all of us can arrange space for, say, a 360. So there are legitimate (if sad) reasons that we might have to pass up a find. Also, would it be good to have a rescue checklist? I can think of a dozen things that might be good to do during a rescue, but I'll bet I wouldn't think of half of it in the excitement of rescue-day. I guess I'm volunteering to collect this, if you all think it's a good idea and want to suggest things. Okay, I'll close with the obligatory lists: Want: SwTPC 6800, CT-64, CT-VM, MF-68 EPROM burner Have (willing to trade away): DecScope terminal (ie: vt52), works DecMate-III (don't yet know if it works) Apple //c with monochrome monitor, some manuals, works Radio Shack CoCo 2's, work Defaced (ie: no faceplate) Amiga something-or-other, with no monitor, keyboard, docs, or anything, probably doesn't work Have (and will keep!): Radio Shack CoCo 1's and a CoCo 3, tech manual IBM PC-XT clone SwTPC S/09 (down with disk problems) Lear-Seigler ADM-31 terminal (bought today!) Of course, some of this stuff would have significant shipping costs associated with it, unless you live nearby (central NC). Cheers, Bill.

28 years, 5 months

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Found on AuctionWeb...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Also, a trackstar E for use with Tandy/IBM compatibles (Apple //e emulator Trackstar 128 Funny I have one of them, haven't figured out what to do with it yet. Not being an apple user it's an odd item in my collection. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton REQUIRED

by manney＠nwohio.com

> another weird feature on Wyse 286 that can show time and >date, mhz display like 8mhz, 12mhz and backlighted! :) Hey, I just had one of those come in for repair! The hard drive table aldo has double digit numbers, something I've never seen before.

28 years, 5 months

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by manney＠nwohio.com

>Well, what did the PC/AT have that the PC/XT didn't? 1.2MB >minifloppies (although I saw those retrofit onto XT-class PCs), 16-bit >slots, a cascaded interrupt controller to handle the additional >interrupt request lines...and the A20 gate that let you get at another >little chunk of RAM up above the 1MB boundary while still in real >mode. ...and the hard drive info in ROM. But, you're right. The 286-386 jump was more significant than the 8088-286 jump, even though so of those 286 changes that you mentioned are still with us that Pentiums are "AT" (not 386) class machines.

28 years, 5 months

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Classic Computer Accumulation Squad

by manney＠nwohio.com

>Hey, for years one of the standard excuses for getting a home computer >was "Hey, we can keep recipes on it". For that of course, you really >want a membrane keyboard -- pasta sauce in a Keytronics is fatal. I always _loved_ seeing the adverts of smiling Mom (no flour on her hands, natch!) booting up the family PC to get her recipes. Some of those early recipe programs would specify oddities such as "5/48 tsp chives". > >And _of course_ a similarly protected laptop belongs in the bathroom, >when you're setting down to do some serious Usenet reading. Hey, I used to program in the bath with my HP-71!

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by manney＠nwohio.com

>And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or >just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I >have a fair amount of time to spend with it) Open it up -- play with it -- computers are meant to be _used_.

28 years, 5 months

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by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

> Rainbow machine is very quirky demanding > weird hardware and quirky disks in both format and hardsectored. :( Bear in mind that from the perspective of us CP/M folks, demanding absolutely rigid hardware compatibility is quirky... > IBM produced > excellent PS/2 '87 era series that can be ripped apart with bare > hands except for motherboard and PSU screws. FWIW, my absolute favorite box of all time is the VAXstation 4000/60 or /96; you can get everything out of the box quickly with no tools. In contrast, it's only been in the last few years that I've gotten coordinated enough to keep from mutilating my knuckles every time I go into a VAXstation 2000... Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

28 years, 5 months

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by engine＠chac.org

At 15:42 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >This is what I like about the Zip IDE drives it's a right design like >the floppy drive machism. But I wished Iomega sell one in SCSI >version as well which means we have to press for it! er....There are SCSI Zip drives, both int and ext. I've got an internal here, use it to store the techno and ambient I listen to through an AWE32. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California

28 years, 5 months

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by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

Allison wrote: > <> acceptable OS. Although CP/M running native on a Pentium 133 is pretty > <> cool, and fast! By collecting Non-PC's there a tons of OS's to play with > > CP/M-80 running on a 16mhz z180 is far more interesting. ;-) Bear in mind: - Z180s now do up to 33MHz - The average 128Kx8 15 ns SRAM - is fast enough to run at 33MHz with no wait states - contains enough on-board logic to do address decoding in a simple Z180 system Sigh; I see ads in Circuit Cellar for folks that take 68HC12s in surface-mount packages and mount them on an adapter board for folks that want through-hole parts. Anyone know of someone doing the same thing with either the Z182 (or, better yet, the Z195) or at least generic footprints of the appropriate size? Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

28 years, 5 months

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tape readers unique solution

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<A little bit of head banging and we realized that to read paper tape, all y <need is a hand scanner, dark background, some kind of rig to hold the scann <in position above a 1" channel and, well, programming as appropriate. smashing ants with atomic cannon. The simplest form of scanner is 9 photocells(photo transistor or diode) lined up under the tape, light above and the 9th (sproket hole connectd to the data available(or ack) of a parallel port such as the PC printer port. Tape movement, pull by hand. should be good for 300->3000 char sec easily. It's trivial hardware. Program: Copy LPT: file.tap Done. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<being sold as "outdated". I know managers refusing to buy DEC Alpha's <because the Intel Merced chip is supposed to be available in a couple <of years - and the first Merced's will be only a bit slower than today's <currently available Alpha's. Talk about being blown away by vapor... Lessee, wait a few years to get what's available now. Excuse me I must be missing something here as doesn't business have to go on in the mean time??? Talk about pinning hopes on the sky. This is straight out of the early micro years when products would be hyped only for the company to go bust before anyone would see it or worse deliver it years late and working poorly(sorta like WIN95!). Allison

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< What do we do with that example? Leave it packed away? Fire it <up for the edification of the locals (worldwide)? This is a knotty <question, and one that harks somewhat to the same question asked by <those who restore, and fly, antique aircraft. If we fly it, there's <always the possibility that we might have a failure and the example <(artifact) may be destroyed - if we don't, we're ignoring the essential <beauty and function of the design. The classic example of this and a conter arguement is the BeeGee Racing aircraft. It was considered a widowmaker, as it nearly or did kill most of the pilots that flew it!. A replica was made and the plane has been flying for several years at airshows and doing remarkable acrobatics... guess what it hasn't killed the pilot. What was lost was that it took a healty respect and some knowledge of design and flight to figure out that it wasn't so much the plane as the pilots that were the problem and they have learned about the flight characteristics of a plane that was deemed unflyable. Not to mention seeing a piece of flying history debunked. < I, offhand, am tempted to say "park the craft" and find another one <that's a bit more beat up. Restore that one, and drive it to your <heart's content. But save the "factory original" one - like an old <Tucker. With some exception cars and place can be preserved where some parts of computers must be exercised or potentially fail. The other issue is this may not even be a working example at this time. It's one thing when it's the last one, another when there are more to see. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by ware＠xtal.pharm.nwu.edu

At 08:40 AM 11/16/97 -0800, James Willing wrote: (AT&T 3B1 found...) >However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it starts >to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a prompt >of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy drive >(it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is >looking for a floppy. Is the hard disk spinning up? I purchased two "new" (in the box with shrink-wrapped software) UNIX PCs about a year ago. One of the internal hard disks (a Micropolis 20 MB 1/2 height ST-506 interface MFM unit) did not spin up, presumably due to stiction or a relative thereof. The computer with this disk exhibited the behavior that you describe. The other machine started up a "Welcome to the UNIX PC" application that prompted me to insert the first disk of the installation media. On the systems that I have (1 MB RAM, 20 MB HD 7300s), the system software was not preinstalled, presumably to allow the version of the OS that was shipped with the machines to be changed easily. If you have opened the media, try booting the machine with the diagnostic disk. If this works, the hard disk is likely to be the culprit. As Ward Griffiths mentioned, the 3B1 uses ST-506 interface MFM disks, but it can only access 67 MB without hardware modifications. There are utilities on the diagnostic disk that you can use to test, format, partition, and make filesystems on the hard disk. If you can't get the hard disk working with these utilities, replacing it isn't too difficult. The ST-251-1 in my UNIX PC isn't original, but neither are the GNU utilities, csh, and Perl that I have installed on it. If you're fortunate enough to have the (somewhat rare) Ethernet card or the (somewhat more rare) TCP/IP software for it, be sure to check out the 3B1 FAQ before putting it on a network. There are some major security holes, especially in the windowing environment. Brian Stuart has a lot of good information (and the comp.sys.3b1 FAQ) on the Web at http://colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/3b1/3b1.html . >I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was released >(and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, open >the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put it on >the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK! I purchased mine from a guy in Chicago who had a warehouse full of them, new in the box. I doubt that many individuals buy computers and put them away without using them (except for collectors), but many businesses like to have spares on hand. Additionally, a lot of new "obsolete" machines get written off and sold as scrap. I don't know, but I suspect that this was the story of my machines. If you would like to try the diagnostics without opening the software, let me know, and I'll get you a copy of the diagnostics disk (from release 3.51). -- Scott Ware s-ware(a)nwu.edu

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton REQUIRED

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Okay.... recently, there's been lots of "off-topic" stuff going on here about computers... but I think that it's not "off-topic." In my mind, there is no doubt that the early mass-produced CD-ROM drives (not the origionals of 1984, but the ones that were made to be put into PCs, not servers) are classic componets, even though many are of this decade. In my opinion, the first 486 PCs (not servers) are classics... ones that are still used, but classics... even though most of 'em were made in like 1991-93... arguebly, early Pentiums (60, 66 Mhz) could be classics, as they steped into a new era (superscaler arceticture) for the mass-production market even though the Pentium chips wern't even on the market until mid-1993... if you remember, in the "welcome" message, it said that it was hard to state the definiton of a classic... but 10 years or older would do. I do not wish to offend the owner, but they are one person, and they can make mistakes... and together, as a group, the chances of making an accurate definiton are smaller with us. Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." The one evedeint place that requires revsion is the "historical signifiacne" but I'm not sure how to include that while still aknowladgeing the presence of many of the best machines and componets that did indeed fail in the process... but at least Wang's did eventually fall.... I can't even rememeber all of the problems that they had... Openly, innocently, and waiting for improvement (on my quote, not the other stuff,), Tim D. Hotze

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by carl.friend＠stoneweb.com

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:40:43 -0800, Mr. Willing made the following comments: > And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? > Or just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it > until I have a fair amount of time to spend with it) Pack it away, sealed up, and find another 3B1 to work on. I know a chap "down under" who has a LINC-8 in its original ply- wood crate stashed in a storage locker. The thing has not seen the light of day since it came off the line in 1968. It is one of 142 ever built. What do we do with that example? Leave it packed away? Fire it up for the edification of the locals (worldwide)? This is a knotty question, and one that harks somewhat to the same question asked by those who restore, and fly, antique aircraft. If we fly it, there's always the possibility that we might have a failure and the example (artifact) may be destroyed - if we don't, we're ignoring the essential beauty and function of the design. I, offhand, am tempted to say "park the craft" and find another one that's a bit more beat up. Restore that one, and drive it to your heart's content. But save the "factory original" one - like an old Tucker. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________|

28 years, 5 months

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Powells Bookstore (was: Anyone have a copy of this book) & VIC Kernel

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Thanks for the suggestions re: Powell's Bookstore. They had the book for $60, a $23 savings over Amazon. Granted, it is a used copy, but if my used books are a guide, I should get a quality book. Highly recommended store for tech books. I'd like to visit it someday. Also, for those interested, I finished my VIC-20 Kernel documentation project. Right now, I have completely recompilable source code for the Commodore VIC-20 kernel ROM. It took me over 2 years, part time, but it works. Anyone who is interested in finding out more, send me a private e-mail. Rich Cini/WUGNET <rcini(a)msn.com> - ClubWin! Charter Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Networking

28 years, 5 months

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Classic Computer Rescue Squad

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens <> of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is <> astonishing. I was in a computer room at dec when a power failure hit. Imagine 30 RA81s and 82s plus two 8650s going silent. The lastime I heard that deafining silence the engine on my plane stopped in the air! It's not the loud but the sudden lack of it. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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Classic Computer Accumulation Squad

by carl.friend＠stoneweb.com

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:59:57 -0600, "Uncle Roger" remarked in our collective presence: > As for me, there is currently [...] a Data General One & a Mac Plus > in the dining room, [and a list to be envious of if you collect > microcomputers!] It looks like it's confession time here. The "no computers in the dining room" is silly, at best. At this moment, I'm typing away on my Linux box in the dining-room looking at least 10 computers, not counting the micro I'm writing this on. There are another 4 in the kitchen behind me, two of which have seen power this weekend. (6 of the dining-room ones saw power over the weekend.) Rules are made to be broken. Computers, of course, fit anywhere you can find space for them. Even big ones. The bathroom, though, is straight out. Too humid. Before some wise-$@# decides to have at me for typing on a "modern" machine, let me remind him that even I have to pay the electric utility >from time to time. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________|

28 years, 5 months

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New Definiton REQUIRED

by carl.friend＠stoneweb.com

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:26:14, Mr. Hotze remarked to us: > Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer > which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer > market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." Given the marketplace today for "commodity" computers, what you buy today is, by definition, obsolete as there'll be something "better" along tomorrow. In a word - "why bother?". Age, also, alone, does not make a classic. I doubt that the standard run-of-the-mill '386 PeeCee will ever amount to anything except to, perhaps, archaeologists who dig one out of a landfill. There were too many of them made, and they were (are) regarded as "disposable". Look at the construction - modern machines aren't made to be repaired any more than a disposable cigarette lighter is made to be refilled. They burn out, you toss' em, and buy another one. Such was not always the case. Pre-PeeCee, machines were usually constructed very carefully. I don't doubt for a minute that engineers in the early '60s envisioned their creations happily hummimg away in the year 2000 - the boxes were built to last. Pop the hood on the latest thing to come down the 'pike - it's all ASICs, custom silicon, and surface mount stuff on wafer-thin boards. In short - not built to last. Nor is it designed to. That, of course, is just my opinion. And a cynical one, too. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________|

28 years, 5 months

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One from the 'believe it or not' file...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<67MB stock, and no expansion was possible 67MB (1024 cyl by 8 head) was <ever supported -- the users came up with ways to add a second and/or <larger hard disk, but most of the components needed have long been <discontinued. disk maximum 1024x8x17 is easily twice (140) the 67mb! A second drive should be a latter of connectors and cables, all still available. Shouldn't be that much majik. Allison

28 years, 5 months

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