> (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all
> those boring old black and white movies! 8^)
True story.
When my sone was about 5, he had very interesting taste in TV shows. It
went something like this:
- If it is animated, watch it.
- If it is live-action in color, change the channel.
- If it is live-action in B&W, watch it for a while to see if it's funny.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
At 07:40 PM 1/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Yeah. EGA is pretty much the same as standard VGA (where windows is
>concerned). The colors (to me) look alot richer and more vibrant on an EGA.
>Maybe they just ditched the CGA/Herc drivers then.
3.1 (and 3.11?) had support for Hercules Mono. Which, iirc, wasn't such a
bad standard at 720xsomething (better than std VGA?) Of course, you didn't
get all those pretty colors... (Thank goodness *somebody*'s coloring all
those boring old black and white movies! 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
At 12:21 PM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>If you're talking about the GEM I think you're talking about. Wasn't it
>licensed from Digital Research? GEM is also the basis for the 16 & 32-bit
>Atari's. I just can't remember at this point if the PC version ran on DOS,
>or if it required CP/M to run.
GEM is DR's product, and it did (does) run on the Atari ST & Falcon. Ran on
the PC over DOS, iirc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
> Right. And if you ran MS Works 2.0 for DOS on an XT, which was
unfortunately
> what had to be done for a while with me, it would show characters maybe a
> second after they are type, especially on a Leading Edge Model D, which
was
> first priority to replace among the 8 XTs that were slowly being phased
out.
I've used MSW on XT's (even a PC), and I don't remember its being all that
slow. What were you doing? Editing War & Peace?
> MS-DOS edit or Windows Write works very much faster. (Don't get me wrong
here,
> I love the Leading Edge Model D, it's just so damn slow)
I think they're pretty quick (faster than the IBM XT, anyway!)
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> HP 9000's are PA-RISC based UNIX workstations running HP-UX.
Um, no. Well, if you buy a new one you will get a PA-RISC CPU but
that is not historically true. You need to look at the series number
to figure out what the CPU is:
500 - FOCUS (HP-proprietary 32-bit stack machine)
200 - 680[01]0
300 - 680[1234]0 (I think the 310 was the only 68010-based series 300)
800 - PA-RISC
400 - 68040
700 - PA-RISC
I think these days there is also a Series 600 that is PA-RISC and
a "T500" that is PA-RISC.
Some of these also have HP 9xxx numbers besides the "9000 Series xxx"
designation. If you go back and look at how they were originally
sold, the "HP 9000" was briefly just the FOCUS-based systems, which
eventually became the HP 9000 Series 520, 530, 540, and 550, and I
think I have seen references to the 9000 Series 520 as the "HP 9020".
The HP 9000 Series 226 and 236 were originally sold as the HP 9826 and
HP 9836; I believe there was some sort of upgrade involved for the
9836 that made it capable of running HP-UX (in addition to the
original BASIC, Pascal, and HPL).
-Frank McConnell
>When I first ran winders it was on a 386/16 with 4mb of ram
> it seemed fast enough to do a lot of useful work.
>
>
> Allison
Well, yeah. But, that was when a Winders program came on a couple of
floppies, before the code -- and graphics -- bloat. A program, then, did
less and had less junk (toolbars and suchlike).
Still, some things _have_ improved in speed. My Corel Draw 3 on my laptop
handles text in a rather leisurely fashion, wheras Corel Draw 7 is quite
snappy.
manney(a)nwohio.com
I dug up a few more 1984 catalogs, and would like to find out about some stuff
in them (I think I have a destination for the catalogs themselves, so don't
ask me about buying them)
One is a Misco 1985 catalog, which is just general office stuff. Not much in
that.
The other is an Advanced Computer Products (19)84/85. This one has some
computers that I have never seen before. If anyone has a clue about them...
*A $500 NEC PC-8200, a very small 16K thing
*A $1400 Sanyo MBC 1150 Z-80 based thing
*An Epson PX-8 portable for $995
*A macintosh ad saying that it is a 32-bit computer. What gives?
*A Sanyo 25" color monitor for $719
*$45 parallel cables
*Rockwell International AIM65, looks more like a huge desktop calculator
Well, I think that I will learn it and use it a bit first. I will say when I
am done with the tutorial :) How much would people pay for it, anyway? It is
in almost perfect condition, with the reference card, and all that.
In a message dated 98-01-02 13:07:22 EST, you write:
<< Are you still interested in selling Visicalc for the Apple II and the other
stuff? I'm interested.
Sincerely,
Tom
>I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I
>finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if
>there was a PC version or port for DOS?
>>
I have finally gone through most of this...
VAX/VMS manuals (Boy, do I need those!)
A lot of PDP-11 diagnostics on punched paper tape (I have a mylar pt reader,
will that do for reading these?)
XXDP on 9-track tape. A DOS/BATCH distrib tape and some manuals.
Loads of RSTS/E manuals and sales stuff. DEC catalogs.
Copies of RSTS PROFESSIONAL magazine. (!)
Some very detailed PDP-8 manuals (As in they include schematics)
The PDP-8 User's Guide
User's Guide to the DECsystem-10. The PDP-10 refrence manual.
The latter has some wonderful panel pictures, I'll scan those...
Some other 10 miscellaneous.
Manuals and a bootdisk for my Rainbow! Now all I need's they keyboard an monitor...
According to the disk it's CP/M 8.0
A few scratch magtapes and RX02. Some TK50 cartridges.
A card reader/punch for Unibus.
More as I go through it...
Oh yea! There's a VAX/VMS magtape distribution in here, version 4.6
-------
Are you still interested in selling Visicalc for the Apple II and the other
stuff? I'm interested.
Sincerely,
Tom
>I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I
>finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if
>there was a PC version or port for DOS?
I'm sure it was ported to many platforms. I have a copy (1982) made for the
Atari 800XL. Even still has the original price sticker on the box, $179.95
(wow).
Cliff Gregory
cgregory(a)lrbcg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
To: Cgregory <Cgregory>
Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 1:35 PM
Subject: Visicalc
>
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>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
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>I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I
>finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering
if
>there was a PC version or port for DOS?
>
I mentioned a while ago that I saw a copy of Apple II visicalc. Well, I
finally got it. It has all the stuff, and is a 1981 copy. I was wondering if
there was a PC version or port for DOS?
I have 3 of these units now, I had no idea they were so common. But I am
interested in purchaseing all your software/carts.
-----Original Message-----
From: SouthPork <SouthPork(a)aol.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 9:20 AM
Subject: PC Jr. owner
>I have two PC Jr. that I no longer use, but refuse to just throw away.
Also, I
>have 15+ orig software probrams for the jr. Can you put me in contact with
>others who might want some for the stuff. I collect Macintohs Classic's and
>would like to trade. If you want I can sent a list of the software and
>equipment I have.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Tom
>-- SouthPork(a)aol.com
>
On 1998-01-02 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to scottk5(a)ibm.net
>Kirk,
>I have one sitting in my dining room! It's one of the HP 9000 200
>series computers (9826 aka 9000 216, 9836 aka 9000 236, 9000/220,
>etc).
(Much really helpful information snipped here...)
Video: Yeap, typical HP, it uses a
>non-standard video output. I doubt you'll find a monitor that will
>work on it except the proper HP one. If you send me the part
>number from the video card I'll tell you which monitors will work
>with it.
There are two video output cards; a 98204A, marked composite video; and
a 98627A, marked color output. The only monitor I have with RGB and sync
BNC ports is a 19" Taxan 980, wonder if that will work?
More about HP-IB: There sould be a connector for an
>external HP-IB bus on the back. It will probably be on the same
>card as the keyboard connection. It will look like a Centronics
>connector (the same type as a parallel printer uses) except it will
>only use 24 pins.
Yes, it's there, but is the keyboard connector the RG-45 looking one? There
is also another BNC connector on the same card.
>If you decide to get rid of it, I'd like to have it.
Thanks a lot for the info, and if I start to think I'm in way over my
head with this thing I'll give you first dibs on it. Now I'm wondering
what my friend Rick did with the rest of it?!?!?!?
Thanks again,
Kirk Scott
scottk5(a)ibm.net
Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive
I have two PC Jr. that I no longer use, but refuse to just throw away. Also, I
have 15+ orig software probrams for the jr. Can you put me in contact with
others who might want some for the stuff. I collect Macintohs Classic's and
would like to trade. If you want I can sent a list of the software and
equipment I have.
Thanks,
Tom
-- SouthPork(a)aol.com
<> I haven't personally tried it, but a Japanese company had some XT clo
<> laptops (OK, luggables) which ran Windows 3.x (Maybe it was 3.0, or
<> 3.1, there's not to awful much of a difference in my mind).
3.0 still had support for 808x(xt class) machines. I know as it have
3.0.
3.1 besides enhancements and structureal improvements dropped support
for 8086 though it runs on 286 and above.
<
<Any Windows 3.x is going to be *very* slow on an XT. There is (IMHO)
<tremendous difference between 3.0 and 3.1 not just the maintenance
3.1 would be slow as it will not start. ;-) 3.0 however is a bit slow
anything like a fast disk or turboXT does help greatly. I'm have 3.0
running on a turboXT with a V20 and a IDE(with adaptor) disk and it's
quite useable and the speed difference from a st251 to a 40meg 3.5" IDE
drive is substantial especially when windows has to swap.
<CGA, Hercules or MDA, I can't recall off the top of my head if it even
<supported EGA but I think it did.
3.0 supports all, so does 3.1.
I happen to run 3.1 on the 486dx/50 and 3.0 on the V20(8088) 10mhz
turboXT clone. They are similar in look and feel and within memory
limitations runs the same set of apps. Some however, cannot run on the
V20 as there isn't enough memory or the code requires 286/386 minimum.
Allison
Read http://www.netaction.org/articles/freesoft.html for a discussion of
the importance of free software such as Linux to the infrastructure of the
net.
Free software and open standards drive creativity and foster a
collaborative approach that benefits all.
The fastest way to fix bugs in new software is to release the source code
to the community. Hmmm, funny MS hasn't done this with Win 95 or NT...
Lots of folks got their first computing experience in the PC era, and being
victims of media and advertising hype decry free software as substandard.
The opposite is true. When substandard software has all the hype and the
gigabucks behind it, it unfortunately develops a market force that is all
but impossible to stop. Where's Beta rather than VHS these days anyway?
Kevin
---
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
A friend of mine dumped a small, meant-to-be-rack-mounted box that is
marked as a Hewlett Packard 9000 220, (model 9920-A). It has several cards
inside including a composite video car, a color output card, and one
meant for the keyboard. I tried to find out something about it but haven't
gotten very far, there were a few references to the auxiliary cards in
articles posted on comp.sys.hp.hardware. It appears to be a 286 workstation
maybe, and will boot, but I can't make out the prompts, since it won't sync
on the only composite monitor I have with BNC input.
Can anyone shed some light on this thing and what cann be done with it?
Kirk Scott
scottk5(a)ibm.net
Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive
>Uh, PC's can do _anything_? Kewl. Set up an IBM PC with 64K RAM, 1 35-track
>SSDD Floppy drive, run a multi-user, multi-tasking operating system on it,
>and still have enough RAM/Floppy room left over to actually do something
>*useful*. Lemme know when it's done. My CoCo in the next room is set up to
>do just that.
I'm calling anything that's smaller than a mini a PC.
>Oh, and BTW: I can do *everything* you listed above on my Atari 1040STf...
>albeit not as quickly as my Cyrix box (but there *is* a reason why I
>overclocked it!! ;-) but anything possible on today's Pentium machines can
>be done right now by machines at least 10 years old... sometimes better!
Yep. By the way, what's the best way to overclock a Cyrix?
>>No, it won't. But that doesn't mean that it can't get easy. (Or just not
>>hard) Linux will be here for awhile, and so we've got to live withit.
>
>Linux isn't hard. My first install with _no_ Linux experience took just
>over an hour to install... and when I was done, (with only the initial
>kernal boot) it was useful. My latest Win95 install took me almost 6 hours
>to get it working somewhat -- ButtPlug-n-play chose the wrong Ethernet
>cards -- but after 3 reboots the wrong drivers (I tried putting in the
>right drivers -- NT doesn't even mind being helped along, but 95 whacked
>the right ones and reinstalled the wrong ones) started working marginally.
>Two more reboots to get the SCSI card working with the scanner, A reboot to
>get the screen at the correct resolution / color depth, and 2 more reboots
>after software installs that required it.
You made a couple mistakes... there arn't MS salesmen here, so don't say
PLUG AND PLAY, it's Plug & Pray. What version of Linux is that?
>Granted, Linux isn't an ooey-gooey with pretty pictures, and as such one
>might require 1/2 a brain to use it -- my personal opinion -- good. Keep
>all the idio-er-users with a brainless box...
Yes, but ease of use is important to some.
><Tangent>
>"Uh, my daughter just downloaded our entire computer onto a disk. How do I
>get it back and boot it?"
Duh.....
>Not to sound like a shit-fer-brains, but my holiday is better spent talking
>to you guys & gals than spending 6 hours on the phone talking to a lady who
>specifically told me "I don't want to learn anything about my new computer
>-- I just want to get on the Internet." -- My boss specifically forbade me
>to answer those types of calls anyway ('cause I usually like to be helpful
>to newbies) and I don't get my regular work done.
Tell 'em what I do: (The other day, I e-mailed a friend who was new to the
'Net, then they replied via e-mail and asked what my e-mail address was.)
Then refer them to the convinetly located Online Help, made by someone who
had a little to much of whatever they had an overstock of at the bar and now
have a shortage of, then designed the manual, found on all MS-OSes.
>Yep, Win95 is the NOS for her! (NOS stands for Non-Operating System). But I
>digress...
Well, it would help if she actually thought. I mean, don't you guies
include a manual, like my ISP, that specifically tells you WHERE TO CLICK
AND WHEN? ;-)
></Tangent>
>
>Sorry for the rambling, Have yourselves a joyous and prosperous '98, and
>keep those geezers computing!!!! :-)
We will.... and don't foget, that means that there are less than 365 days
for Windows 98 to be late again. ;-) BTW, does anyone have a spare 14.4
modem? (For x86, preferably NOT a Winmodem)
Tim D. Hotze
I have acquired a system marked "MAI Basic Four Information System", Model 4105, Tustin California. It's not working.
CPU is a Z80 and it has 2 5 1/4" floppy drives. It's sort of sleek looking and the keyboard clips to the front, but there's no way it could be described a luggable. There are no handles and its much heavier than an Osborne 1 or Compaq.
Does anyone have any background on this?
A side note:
Anyone looking for info/downloads of different OS'es might
want to take a look at: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/bridges/oses.html
They have a rather exhaustive list of some real odd-balls...
Les
<FWIW, I've got a DEC PDT-11 (Haven't touched it in years, due to space
PDT11/110 or 130 or 150?
My PDT-11/130 has 32kw ram and runs basic just fine. the 16kw one will
as well if I run rt-11SJ monitor.
Allison
<The way I remember it is this way:
I didn't have to remember I just reach over and pushed the mouse around
on both boxen.
FYI the diskset(1.44mb media) I have for 3.1 was had in early 1992 and
later sets had different mixes of drivers. the number of drivers
depended on time and diskset(type of media).
Same was true for 3.0 disks as mine were 720k 3.5" (more room that the
360k floppy set.)
<that, or I had some screwed up install disks). I figure they were thin
<"Who'd want to install 3.1/3.11 on something so slow???"
Someone that needs compatability to some level. Slow is a relitive
thing. When I first ran winders it was on a 386/16 with 4mb of ram
it seemed fast enough to do a lot of useful work.
Allison
Yeah. EGA is pretty much the same as standard VGA (where windows is
concerned). The colors (to me) look alot richer and more vibrant on an EGA.
Maybe they just ditched the CGA/Herc drivers then.
At 06:40 PM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>actually, the drivers are present for ega on 3.1 version. just run
>\windows\setup and change to ega. i tried it just for kicks one time, and
>didnt notice much difference except for the splash screen. dialog boxes and
>program manager looked almost identical.
>
>david
>
- John Higginbotham
- limbo.netpath.net
[[[ snip ]]]
> The XT came with a 4.77MHz 8088, but it's not
> hard to find a 8MHz version.
OK so far...
[[[ snip ]]]
> you can run Windows, up to 3.1. You can also run OS/2 (earlier
> versions) and many of the smaller OSes made during the early 80's.
I'll have to reserve judgement on Win 3.1 as I've never tried to run it on
an 8088 (I thought Microsoft dropped support for the mode required by the
8088 in Win3.1, though), but OS/2 is right out. It's entire reason for
being is to run on the 286, so an XT won't cut it.
In addition to Xenix, CP/M-86, Minix, and a variety of Forths, there are
other Unix clones (Venix, for exmaple), the UCSD P-system, and MP/M-86 (if you
can find it!). I don't know offhand whether Concurrent CP/M-86 requires a
286, but I do not believe it does.
> > yes, minix would work, but i dont think it's free.
The lastest version of Minix _is_ free for personal use.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
Happy New Year to All
Yesterday I picked up a few more item including this short list, a Sanyo
model DM8012CX monitor that works; a LaserWriter II $15; two Kodak Diconix
150 Plus printers for free; LattisNet Model 102 power module and four model
505 transceivers for $15; Mac IIsi shell for free; and few other items.
Messages to the those of you that asked about a few things, yes the HP is a
model 9114; I will be trading or selling some of the travelmates; I will be
getting the Mac KB for the person that asked on Friday I hope. That's it
for now Keep Computing. John
In a message dated 98-01-01 18:07:53 EST, you write:
<< CGA, EGA, and Herc are supported by 3.0 and below, but if you want to run
them on 3.1/3.11, you need to download the drivers from microsoft. (Either
that, or I had some screwed up install disks). I figure they were think
"Who'd want to install 3.1/3.11 on something so slow???"
>>
actually, the drivers are present for ega on 3.1 version. just run
\windows\setup and change to ega. i tried it just for kicks one time, and
didnt notice much difference except for the splash screen. dialog boxes and
program manager looked almost identical.
david
groberts(a)mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) wrote:
> i have recently been given an old Zenith laptop model ZFL-181-92. batteries
> discharged or dead. no power supply. i would like information if anyone
> can help me on what type of power supply to use. the label on the bottom
> of the systems says: DC 12 V, Plug-in power supply Model 150-272.
Sorry, I don't know the power-supply polarity, but maybe this will give
you another thing to look for.
I am thinking that HP badge-engineered this model of Zenith as the
Vectra Portable CS. The place I worked at the time bought two or
three of them to replace a couple of HP 110s that were three or four
years old and becoming a data-interchange hassle (different stiffy
format, had to get the 9114A and hook it up, Lotus 1A on the 110
vs. 2.x on the desktops (HP Vectra and Vectra ES), those sorts of
things). My admittedly dim memories of those fit with the pop-up dual
720KB stiffy drive, and I think there was also a bar graph LCD "fuel
gauge" to tell you how much oomph was left in the battery.
As I recall it was very IBM-compatible, but then just about anything
was compared to the 110s.
-Frank McConnell
At 02:39 PM 1/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
><CGA, Hercules or MDA, I can't recall off the top of my head if it even
><supported EGA but I think it did.
>
>3.0 supports all, so does 3.1.
The way I remember it is this way:
CGA, EGA, and Herc are supported by 3.0 and below, but if you want to run
them on 3.1/3.11, you need to download the drivers from microsoft. (Either
that, or I had some screwed up install disks). I figure they were think
"Who'd want to install 3.1/3.11 on something so slow???"
- John Higginbotham
- limbo.netpath.net
>I'll have to reserve judgement on Win 3.1 as I've never tried to run it on
>an 8088 (I thought Microsoft dropped support for the mode required by the
>8088 in Win3.1, though), but OS/2 is right out. It's entire reason for
>being is to run on the 286, so an XT won't cut it.
I haven't personally tried it, but a Japanese company had some XT clone
laptops (OK, luggables) which ran Windows 3.x (Maybe it was 3.0, or 3.1,
there's not to awful much of a difference in my mind).
>In addition to Xenix, CP/M-86, Minix, and a variety of Forths, there are
>other Unix clones (Venix, for exmaple), the UCSD P-system, and MP/M-86 (if
you
>can find it!). I don't know offhand whether Concurrent CP/M-86 requires a
>286, but I do not believe it does.
Yes, but someone somehow (maybe they just upgraded the motherboard) used
OS/2 on their XT. (Well, it had an XT case)
Want to see how much people can laugh without getting knocked out/dying?
Call IBM tech support on it.
Tim D. Hotze
>First, I don't consider word processing to be a meaningful test of an
>OS'susefulness. Word processing is probably the most wasteful >way ever
invented to use personal computers. Sure it's easy but I >can word process
just as quickly and easily on my old Mac SE as I >can on a new 95 box.
It IS NOT a test of usefulness, but still, it's one of the reasons that has
made PC computing popular. Besides, there ARE WORD PROCESSORS AVAIBLE FOR
LINUX! Just because billg won't make a word processor for a x86 OS that
isn't his doesn't mean that the OS isn't useful.
>Second, there are applications...I believe WordPerfect is available for
>Linux as well as many other WSIWYG programs. I don't use them on my
>Linux box because I prefer to have it do useful things.
Yep. Visit their site, and you can download a trial. Also, you can
download a beta for the Java version.
>Third, I think you need to pick up a copy of Linux Journal as it has
>listings for commercial software etc.
Where can I get one of those?
>Fourth, let's not underestimate the value of what you call 'TCP/IP Stack'
>operations. We're not talking about a replacement for Trumpet Winsock
>here...we're talking about being able to do EVERYTHING that thousands of
>dollars worth of commercial software can do, do it better and
>FASTER...for FREE. The financial value of that alone is incalculable
>when you realize how much of the Internet simply would not have been
>implemented had it not been for Linux (and other free unix-based OSs).
It IS an advanced system. That's what happens when you get 500 expert
programmers together working cooperatively as their hobby.
>> That was the end of my last try at Linux, a few months ago. I have a
Slackware
>> Linux CD with Kernels up to 1.3.12. I now have T-1 access, though, so if
you
>> can suggest a system which COULD BE A VIABLE REPLACEMENT FOR MacOS OR
WINDOWS,
Try OS/2 Warp. But there arn't too many commercial apps. I guess that it's
most useful to preven hacking, as no one owns a copy. ;-)
>Linux isn't a replacement for MacOS or Windows...it goes FAR BEYOND the
>capabilities of either. Certainly you can use it for word processing,
>using the WordPerfect etc mentioned above, but Linux boxes are serious
>business machines that can represent thousands of dollars in revenues to
>a business that uses it.
Exactly. PC's also became popular because they could do ANYTHING. But my
uses and yours probably are different. I use word processing, (I can type
faster than I handwrite), but I also use e-mail, the 'Net, my browser, 3D
software, and many other things.
>It's like saying a Cray could never be useful because you can't run
Microsoft Word on >it. I don't think it's reasonable to make Word the
be-all end-all basis for judging a >machine.
Exactly. It's one example of a word processor. It's not a standard, just
another popular app. If you're going to measue word processing, just look
at what the avaible editors CAN DO.
>Keep in mind that there's a trade-off between flexibility and
>ease-of-use. Linux will never be as easy to install as Windows 95. It
>isn't intended for that purpose. It's far too powerful and flexible for
>that and assumes that the user wants to go beyond mere word processing.
No, it won't. But that doesn't mean that it can't get easy. (Or just not
hard) Linux will be here for awhile, and so we've got to live withit.
For those of you who would like an account on an honest-to-God
PDP10'ish system...
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
Path:
Supernews70!Supernews73!supernews.com!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.eerie.fr!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news
From: xkladmin(a)paulallen.com (XKLeTen Admin)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.sys.dec
Subject: XKL (PDP10) Site Announcement
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:55:47 GMT
Organization: XKLeTen
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <34a85fd3.3481181(a)nntp.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: xkladmin(a)paulallen.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: stl-wa16-15.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Dec 29 6:56:58 PM PST 1997
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235
Xref: Supernews70 alt.sys.pdp8:1899 alt.sys.pdp10:3974 alt.sys.pdp11:2924
comp.sys.dec:58635
Dear Fellow PDP-10 Enthusiast,
Over the past 25 years, it's been challenging for all of us to find a
place to run our PDP-10 software. At the same time, there hasn't
been a library of PDP-10 software that is well taken care of, and
made easily available to the interested public.
I would like to offer a solution. I have invested in a TOAD-1
machine running the PDP-10 architecture, and would like to make
its capabilities available. The TOAD is manufactured
by XKL Systems Corporation, and is a completely new hardware
implementation of Digital's 36-bit PDP-10 architecture, not an
emulator running on another platform. This machine I've purchased
will be a repository for PDP10 public domain software, including the
collection of the DEC-10 and DEC-20 DECUS tapes.
By making access accounts available to an initial limited group, we
hope to learn of any issue areas with our new program. Through an
account you can set up with us, you can access this library, and run
programs you may not have seen for years. You may also submit your
own programs for storage, and for use by fellow advocates. These
programs may be submitted via FTP, email or 9-track tapes. Once you
have an account established you could access XKLeTen via telnet.
Anyone may download the libraries of software through anonymous
FTP from XKLeTen.paulallen.com.
The machine, named XKLeTen, is configured as follows:
TOAD-1, 36-bit computing system
TOPS-20 system software
32 MW memory board
4 mm DDS tape drive
9 track tape drive
8 gigabyte disk
I encourage any of you who are interested to contact us to set up an
account. To be considered for an account, please submit the
following information to XKLadmin(a)paulallen.com:
Full name
Email address
Interest or purpose in this project (short summary)
Desired account name
If you have any questions about XKLeTen, or how to execute the
anonymous FTP, please contact us via the same email address.
Bill Gates and I used PDP10s to develop much of Microsoft's early
software. I hope many of you take advantage of this new opportunity
to keep alive some of your old memories.
Paul G. Allen
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, SysOp,
The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272)
kyrrin2 {at} wiz<ards> d[o]t n=e=t
"...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe
an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly
define any of them!..."
>> >I'll have to reserve judgement on Win 3.1 as I've never tried to run it on
>> >an 8088 (I thought Microsoft dropped support for the mode required by the
>> >8088 in Win3.1, though), but OS/2 is right out. It's entire reason for
>> >being is to run on the 286, so an XT won't cut it.
>>
>> Now if you want to see something really fly, load up Windows 1.03 or 2.0
on
>> it. Those'll run like lightning on any x86 with 512k or more. I have 1.03
>> running off a DD 3.5" floppy on a GRiDCASE 3 laptop (XT class, no HD, Gas
>> Plasma CGA, 512k, DOS in ROM)
>
> Yes, Win 2.0 was quick; code bloat in those days wasn't merely the
> inconvienience it is today-- back then it was FATAL! We had a small,
> minimalist programming ethic back then.
>
> > >In addition to Xenix, CP/M-86, Minix, and a variety of Forths, there are
>> >other Unix clones (Venix, for exmaple), the UCSD P-system, and MP/M-86
(if
>> you
>> >can find it!). I don't know offhand whether Concurrent CP/M-86 requires a
>> >286, but I do not believe it does.
>
>I have a copy of Concurrent. The version I have will ONLY run on a
>PC or XT! Hell, I don't think it even supports hard disks! (But I
>can check).
>
>>
>> Anyone know of a free source for x86 CP/M? or forth? Am I missing
>> something? Isn't forth a language, not an OS?
>>
>>
>> - John Higginbotham
>> - limbo.netpath.net
>>
>
>
> Jeff
Well, would someone dare offend the MS EULA and send me one of:
a)Windows 1.x/2.x
b)Concurrent CP/M
c)Xenix
d)Forth
Finally something that I KNOW about! The XT won't use Linux, that's only
for 386 & higher processors. The XT came with a 4.77MHz 8088, but it's not
hard to find a 8MHz version. You've got to consider that you've ususally
got less than 512K of workable RAM. Depending on what kind of HDD you have
(the XT came with a 10MB, but the XT's lasted so long that I found mine with
a 42, another reason that you can't run Linux, it requires 40MB minimum) and
monitor (the XT came with a mono, but many have CGA EGA and I've even found
a VGA) you can run Windows, up to 3.1. You can also run OS/2 (earlier
versions) and many of the smaller OSes made during the early 80's. Software
is EASY to find for 'em, they'll run most of the software I've seen that was
made up to 88-89 or so. Many of the programs that are found on the
"Ultimate Collections of xxxx Shareware", or stuff like that, mostly old DOS
programs will run on the XT.
So, Linux isn't possible, DOS isn't what you want, so get OS/2 or
Windows. Also, try to use the best monitor that you can find, as they can
pretty much run what a 286 can. Try to find as much RAM as possible.
Hope that this helps,
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: SUPRDAVE <SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: operating systems
>In a message dated 97-12-31 10:36:45 EST, you write:
>
><< K, let's say I have a stock IBM PC XT. What can I put on it except DOS?
> >>
> yes, minix would work, but i dont think it's free. there's something
called
>ELKS which is under development, but you need to have a working linux box
or
>similar to download the images and create them for use on the xt. seems
that
>720k drives on the xt were recommended as well. for more info, goto
>www.uk.linux.org (i think)
>
>david
Classifieds 2000 (http://www.classifieds2000.com/) has a thing to
automatically let you know when new listings are added. I've signed up for
anything in the "old computers" category, and got this t'other day:
>Greetings from Classifieds2000,
>
>Cool Notify found the following items meeting your search criteria:
[...]
> IMSAI 1978 - DESK TOP, $200, Used
> Eve: (530) 877-5368 Mail: sugar-ii(a)webtv.net
[...]
>To view the complete ads, go to:
>
> http://www.classifieds2000.com/cgi-cls/Search.exe?358502+29-DEC-97
Hope someone can afford to give it a good home!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
Have a look at: http://www.linux.org.uk/ELKS-Home/index.html
----------
From: Zeus334[SMTP:Zeus334@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 5:32 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: operating systems
In a message dated 97-12-31 17:40:13 EST, you write:
<< > (the XT came with a 10MB, but the XT's lasted so long that I found mine
with
> a 42, another reason that you can't run Linux, it requires 40MB minimum)
and
> So, Linux isn't possible, DOS isn't what you want, so get OS/2 or
Errrr...not to quibble...but the primary restriction on using Linux is the
processor and the RAM not so much the hard drive. You can run a usable
linux system on a 386 with 4mb of RAM and 20mb of drive space. I know
because I ran a small FTP/web server on one...if I powered it up, it'd
still run and do ok...can't handle many simultaneous users and swaps
itself to death if you don't reboot it every morning but that's easy
with crond.
You can't do ALOT of software development mind you...but you can have
full networking utilities...even run Lynx for web stuff...and write
shell scripts and editors and do all kinds of useful things.
Wirehead - Anthony Clifton
>>
Er....one question here. I've tried Linux many times, as well as Minix. From
all of my attempts, I have come to the following conclusion: Linux is not for
doing USEFUL things. The express purpose of Linux is to provide something for
people to recompile. After all, you HAVEN'T seen people doing something on
Linux besides recompiling the kernel and configuring TCP/IP stacks, HAVE YOU?
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:02:06 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>OK... Assuming all your hardware is working and at the standard addresses
>>t will be, unless somebody has messed about with it), try the following.
{...snip...}
Wow, this thing works great! Faster than I expected. Thanks for the
help!
On Tue, 30 Dec 97 09:23:28 GMT Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk wrote:
>>Rich, you don't say what flavour of PDP-11 you've got, but I have vague
>>mories of a '44. Certainly your description of behaviour sounds like
>>the '44 console program (which runs on an Intel microprocessor somewhere
>>in there.
Phil, it's an 11/34a. Booting works by issuing a "DK" at the $ prompt.
The front keypad controller is an Intel 8008.
Rich Cini/WUGNET
<nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use)
ClubWin! Charter Member (6)
MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
============================================
There were (still are) a lot of cartridges for the PCjr. Many of the
games came on these cartridges so that Junior's internal memory could be
taken advantage of. Also second parties came out with "quick boot"
cartridges that would speedup the booting process. There was one called
"jr Video" and also one that had another BIOS on it for a hard drive set
up. The BASIC cartridges are still in demand.
Does this help anyone ot there??
Louie Levy
Eugene PCjr Club Newsletter Editor
www.efn.org/~pcjrclub
I was given some DEC manuals and have no use for them. They're all new in
the shrink wrap and if anyone wants them they can have them for the cost of
postage from Florida. Here's a list: Network Communications- DECnet_DOS
Getting Started, Network Communications- DECnet_DOS User's Guide, Network
Communications- DECnet_DOS Release Notes, Network Communications-
DECnet_DOS Installation Guide, Network Communications- DECnet_DOS
Programmer's REference Manual. I don't know if there is any software in
the packs but it doesn't look like it.
Joe
>At 02:10 PM 12/31/97, you wrote:
>
>> Yes, it's a language but like IBM APL it has (is ?) it's on evironment
>>and OS. Both require a IBM with the ROM BASIC.
>
>That's out then. I want something truly bizarre to run on my GRiDCASE 3.
Many years ago I bought a single-user copy of CCS MUMPS. It will run on an
XT (it even used to work just fine on my DEC Rainbow), but runs under
MS-DOS, so it's not _really_ an operating system (unless you want to grant
Windows operating system status).
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
> Anyone know of a free source for x86 CP/M?
http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/
> or forth?
ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth is a large archive of Forth stuff. The home
for fig is http://www.forth.org/
> Am I missing
> something? Isn't forth a language, not an OS?
Sure, throw _that_ in my face!
I'm aware of a company locally that used to run all their accounting on a
multiuser BASIC whose name escapes me. They were using an AT at the time; I
don't know whether that particular BASIC would run on an XT.
When you get to things like multiuser Forths and multiuser BASICs, it's hard
to say where the language stops and the OS begins...
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
someone posted to a local newsgroup about a non working apple //e for $10.
here's what i got...
apple //e in original box. not working, im told; boots to garbage on screen.
it's a late model //e, but just before the enhanced version, so it has that
nice keyboard feel i like. A1 cosmetic condition.
duodisk in original box with cable. also in A1 condition except the drive
latches are dirty from dirty fingers.
mono monitor in original box. this is the one with the manual tilt screen and
the video cable. A1 condition, of course.
all manuals that ever would have shipped with this machine, in perfect
condition of course. also got all the promotional items that went with it,
including the apple stickers in their never opened bag.
~100 flippy disks of various apps, including some commercial ones.
aps ext 80 col card in original box
suprmod box, (no suprmod though). i also got manuals and papers with some of
the apps as well. everything was dutifully packed up and looks to be seldom
used. all in all, a perfect one for the collection! i noticed the shipping
boxes say "the PERSONAL computer" lol.
i have lots of spare apple chips so i'm wondering where do i start with the
//e problem? no beep either but garbage on screen. chips were reseated
already.
david.
FYI,
>
>Joe,
>Do you remember I once told you that IBM carries parts WELL past the date
>of marketing withdrawal.?? There is an 800 number to call to get prices
>AND parts identifaction. There is a FEE for the parts identification but
>the price quote and availability info is free. Write this # down..you may
>need it some day. 800-388-7080.
>If you call it and select parts pricing for PN 2305616 you will find that
>it has been assigned a new PN 2462593 and it costs $18.75. You can also
>order directly through this number. This does NOT work for PC parts (only
>real machines!!). Pick a part number off of your 5100 and see if it is
>still in the sysem (probably not)
>John
>P.S. there is an ex IBM'r in north Jersey who formed his own company to do
>nothing but repair series/1's years ago. His name was Al Horton and his
>company was called....are you ready for this.....Series/1. I don't have
>his # but your friend can try the phonebook.
>
Joe
In a message dated 97-12-31 10:36:45 EST, you write:
<< K, let's say I have a stock IBM PC XT. What can I put on it except DOS?
>>
yes, minix would work, but i dont think it's free. there's something called
ELKS which is under development, but you need to have a working linux box or
similar to download the images and create them for use on the xt. seems that
720k drives on the xt were recommended as well. for more info, goto
www.uk.linux.org (i think)
david
I've been working with an H-89 that was given to me a few months ago,
trying to make backups of the HDOS boot disk, both for myself and for
Don Maslin, Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives. I've
gone through the manuals and followed the instructions for copying the
HDOS system perhaps 20 times, but with only one working copy to show
for it. I had 4 blanks from Don, as well as another 4 of my own that
I tried. The media tests available in HDOS seem to indicate
everything is okay; in fact, I've used one of the same disks that
failed with HDOS to make a copy of NorthStar CP/M on my IMSAI since
then. The steps I've gone through are to INIT the diskette, then
SYSGEN *.* to copy the system files and utilities. According to the
manual, this is supposed to produce an exact copy of the boot disk.
It appears to work, in that it asks me to swap disks 5 or 6 times
(when I try doing a single drive copy), and it accesses both drives
repeatedly (when using a two-drive copy). After it has been at this a
while, it prints the message "20 files copied" and asks me to insert a
bootable diskette to reboot from. If I go back to the original boot
disk, it boots. With any of my copies (except one, which I thought I
made exactly the same way as the others), the system gives the normal
"H:" prompt, to which I respond "B" for "boot"; it spins the disk and
then hangs. Normally, if the disk is bootable, it says "Action?
(Boot)" and boots if you hit Return. Out of all these attempts, I've
actually gotten one bootable disk. I've tried bulk-erasing the disks
and starting over, thinking that perhaps that would help, but with the
same results. I'm out of ideas... Can anyone offer any suggestions?
I'm out of ideas...
-Bill Richman
bill_r(a)inetnebr.com
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs.
When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent.
When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun.
Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it."
-www.paranoia.com
Been on the road the last few weeks but picked up a few items along the
way. In Houston I got a A20000 KB for 4.95 they wanted too much for the
monitor and computer; picked Mac KB for 2.99; commodore 128D complete 1.00;
VTEK Braille Display unit; Mac color display M1212 15.00 works; HP 45711B
notebook with HP 9118 3.5 ext unit, and HP thinkjet model 2225B all for
5.00; back here in the TwinCities (MN) I got Toshiba T1200 for trade; a
Epson Equity LT Q150A for trade; Toshiba T1100 Plus not working for 15.00;
Lisa 2 for 5.00; a Cari portable power unit for the Apple IIc for 3.00;
Epyx Monster Maze cartridge; Atari 3-D Tic-Tac-Toe cartridge; Zenith
ZWL-183-93 laptop free; 13 TI travelmate 2000 notebooks $5 each non
working; various books and manuals and different brands of mice (Mac, PC,
Next, etc). It's been a good holiday for shopping. Keep Computing !!!
Happy New Year to ALL.
Greetings;
Decided to fire up yet another previously unchecked box in the collection,
and after the normal preliminaries cranked it up, and found that it boots
to Xenix v3.0b. And of course, with the usual problems... No docs, and no
passwords...
Tried some of the more common openings, with no success so far... And I've
watched the boot process, and don't see any opportunity to abort to 'single
user' mode... Suggestions???
I can abort the boot all together, and end up at the following screen:
ALTOS COMPUTER SYSTEMS - 586
Monitor Version V1.1
Press any key to interrupt boot
Enter [1] to boot from Hard Disk
Enter [2] to boot from Floppy Disk
Enter [3] to enter Monitor
Booting from the hard disk takes me back to Xenix, I have no floppies so
that one is out for the moment, and going to the 'monitor' gets me this:
Enter option: 3
< A, B, D, G, I, K, L, M, O, R, S, X >
Anyone have any insights as to what these commands are? (don't want to
stumble onto a HD init by accident)
When Xenix boots, it indicates that the machine has 840k of RAM, but says
little else. I'm not even sure right at the moment what processor is in
it. (not dug that far under the panels)
Anyone familiar with this particular machine, and/or this variant of Xenix
that might be able to provide some insights? Any thoughts would be
appreciated!
Thanks!
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
