The Baltimore County Public Schools have 100's of old (286 & earlier) PC
that need a disposal outlet. We are looking for companies that buy old
machines for resale in third-world countries. Any info that you have
that will help us to identifiy companies in this business will be
greatly appreciated. Larry Mathison (410) 887-7838,
LMATHISON(a)BCPS.ORG.
<95% true, but using RLL on stepper is fine but the main problem was
<when the maker produced drives to work with RLL used faster stepper
No it wasn't due to a lot of factors. one being the interface cable length
was more critical and since most stepper drives didn't recalibrate for
temperature after while they tended to mistrack the data and RLL has a
poorer signal to noise ratio so it would suffer more.
<design (makers tends to pack with lastest on next generation and
<leave the older alone instead of improving it more to pack more info
<instead of increassing performance which is perferable.) and that
<also include fast stepper type seeking on MFM drives as well. That's
<where you see the trouble. Noisy stepper ones tends to wear out
<than those ones that does quietly and slowly.
This is a long winded way to say, we suffered from designs that were
marginal from being pushed to far.
<Voice coil is best way to up the performance and pack more info.
It helps and is faster too but the overhead is the servo tracks or
embedded servo info. That overhead on some dries is the loss of a
side on one platter and that can represent a lot of data. Also the
servo system is more complex and expensive. This is offset by lowered
cost of hardware(electronics) as time progressed.
Allison
uh, right! and would you mind telling the audience how you crammed a square
386 chip into the xt's dip socket???
In a message dated 98-01-07 17:05:26 EST, you write:
<< [Overclocking]
I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire...
Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386
and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start
emitting black smoke.
This was before I knew they were useful...
------- >>
I have them all, i.e., 64, 64C, and a 64 in a 64C look alike case. Although
not as common as the classic 64, the 64C is not at all rare. I found a
complete one with a matching 1541C drive at a thrift the other day for $5.
Among the Commodore community the consensus is that although functionally
the same, some of the chips in the 64C had been upgraded (if I remember
correctly, specificly the sound chips among others), and it is therefore
more desirable than the standard 64.
Cliff Gregory
cgregory(a)lrbcg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
To: Cgregory <Cgregory>
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 1:36 AM
Subject: Re: C-64c, How common?
>
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>Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:23:54 -0700
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>From: Cord Coslor <archive(a)navix.net>
>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Subject: Re: C-64c, How common?
>References: <199801080420.OAA02158(a)arthur.merlin.net.au>
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
>
>I have a C64c, although I haven't found them to be very common. This unit
may
>be for sell as well if anyone is looking for one. Also, I too found a C64
in a
>third party case that looked just like the c-64... and it also was made in
>Australia. I can get this for anyone that might want this unit as well. Let
me
>know.
>
>CORD COSLOR
>
>adam(a)merlin.net.au wrote:
>
>> >I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see
>> >one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few
>> >months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like
3
>> >or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual
computer!
>>
>> I'm assuming you mean the different case design - over here (South
>> Australia) they seem to be as common as the old breadbox sort, but I
>> suspect that in numbers they are slightly less than the older designs. I
>> have three of them, and I only wanted the one. As far as I know there are
>> no functional changes, although Commodore had a history of working out
>> ways to make systems cheaper, so there may be a difference internally.
>>
>> I did find one old C64 in a third-party case which looked very much like
>> the C64c, though. Interestingly enough it was made here - I would have
>> picked it up, but I shy away from collecting computers based on the
>> different cases, as there are too many to collect just based on the
>> different systems themselves, and space is limited.
>>
>> Adam.
>
>
>
>
>Well, I've found a source of PS/2 parts/systems, but it'll cost. It's a
>company. They seem to have tons of the stuff. Their URL is
>http://www.kahlon.com . The problem is that they list(ed) a Model 55SX as
>$249, but that did include a monitor. Well, you could probably say that
you
>collect classics and that that price is way out of whack, but that might
not
>work....
>Tim D. Hotze
I suspect that here in Sydney, Australia the price of PS/2's is about to
tumble to insignificance. It seems a lot of corporations bought whole
networks of them in the early 90's and they are at the end of their
usefulness when they move away from DOS/Win3.1 I have recently seen model
70 boxes advertised for $A30 and actually acquired a model 76 box for $A70,
with 8Mb and 200Mb SCSI. (thats about $US20 and $US45)
I've gotten back to looking into getting the my VAXstation up and running.
This has gotten me to thinking, how many MIPS is a VUP?
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
Well, I've found a source of PS/2 parts/systems, but it'll cost. It's a
company. They seem to have tons of the stuff. Their URL is
http://www.kahlon.com . The problem is that they list(ed) a Model 55SX as
$249, but that did include a monitor. Well, you could probably say that you
collect classics and that that price is way out of whack, but that might not
work....
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca <jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 4:18 AM
Subject: Re: The IBM PS/2 model 70 again! -E61
Hi!
> I have this model in my collection. i managed to get it for $25 but have
not
> been able to test it since mine came with a radius two page display card
which
> is useless without the monitor. i finally did get a 1bit video card for
it,
> but now need to find a mono display for it which i still havent found! the
cx
> is a 68030 running at 16mhz. a better deal would be the IIci model which
is
> 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a
> special dongle.
I noticed after I surfed the net, and I do remember it had no video
card. BUMMER! If it was IIci, I would grab it.
> RE: ps2 models; I have 3 of them: two 8530 and a 9577. the model 77 i
bought
> from work when they upgraded to pc300 desktops. two scsi adaptors, 16 meg,
200
> 400meg scsi drives running hpfs and os2 3.0. its an industrial strength
> machine, and will probably outlive any other computer i own.
David, how cheap did you gotten some of these parts through this
mail list? Model 77? I do not know this specs, kindly tell me what
about this? :)
My book does not list this Model 77.
Jason D.
> david.
<I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire...
<Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386
<and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start em
I find this a good story. ;-) The fastest 8088 ever made was 10mhz if
you squint it may hit 12. As far as putting a 386 in a 8088
socket...there is the matter of the 100 or so extra pins.
Oh, if the 25 mhz clock was input to the 8284A then the cpu clock would
be 8.333mhz... almost believable save for the rest of the logic on the xt
board would not generally run that fast without adding waitstates.
Allison
Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In fact what's really holding me back is that I don't have a
> specification of the CS/80 or amigo command sets (the commands that HP
> used for their drives, and which are sort-of a de-facto standard). If
> anyone has this spec, I'll consider building this interface.
Well, Tony, once upon a time I think I was thinking about sending you
some chunks of the 7941/7945 service manual that describe some portion
of the CS/80 protocol used by those devices. I vaguely recall it was
enough of a subset that we came to the conclusion that it wouldn't
help, but if you still think it would be useful send me your postal
address and I will make a trip to the copy shop.
Also it is my understanding that the "hp300" flavors of NetBSD and
OpenBSD contain working code to talk to CS/80 devices. It may be in
the 4.4-Lite BSD release, I think that is where I remember seeing it
first.
The CS/80 command-set reference is one of those manuals that HP Direct
refused to sell me. I had the part number, and the HP Direct folks
told me that it had been withdrawn from offer. Maybe I should give
that another shot; it's been some years ago now.
...
More vague memories: not all HP-IB discs talk CS/80. There was also
a "subset" or "simple" protocol, SS/80. Was that "Amigo"? I can't
remember. I think it is the protocol used by the 91xx discs, and
those are what the Integral seems to recognize.
-Frank McConnell
At 05:46 PM 1/5/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>It's recycling.
Don't get pissed off. Look at it as an opportunity. They're in business to
make money; they don't care about preserving history or any goody-two-shoes
thing like that. So offer 'em 5 cents/pound more than the melters if you
get first crack at older systems.
And, contrary to what the media seems to think, continued used is actually
better than recycling something. (Which is why I drive a 38 year old car
rather than a brand new, *recyclable* one that doesn't get any better gas
mileage.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
At 03:57 PM 1/6/98 +0300, you wrote:
>586 compatible processor for 486/DX4 motherboards that works at 133MHz.
>Those go for around $500.
I had one of those. Had it overclocked to 160mhz, beat the pants of a P100.
I think I paid $150 for the board and chip about a year and a half ago. I
wonder what that'll look like next to the systems 10 years from now?
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
Found on Usenet. Please respond directly to him if you can help.
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
Path: Supernews70!Supernews69!not-for-mail
From: Dale Toney <dale(a)blueridge.net>
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Looking for a PDP-11
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 15:07:10 -0500
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <34B3E06E.2120EDF9(a)blueridge.net>
Reply-To: dale(a)blueridge.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: 15767(a)205.152.121.8
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
Xref: Supernews70 vmsnet.pdp-11:9088
Hi,
I am in North Carolina and looking for a used pdp-11 to buy. I broke my
teeth in on pdp-11's and vax/vms, and would like to find one to tinker
with. Any help in locating one would be appreciated.
thanks,
--
Dale
mailto:dale@blueridge.net
-=-=- <pins> -=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, SysOp,
The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272)
kyrrin2 {at} wiz<ards> d[o]t n=e=t
"...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe
an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly
define any of them!..."
<I didn't put the 386 in the XT socket. I just pulled the clock xtal from
<386 and put in in the XT. It wasn't a real IBM PC, it was a clone.
<-------
Bit more believable. A 25mhz crystal used on the 8284a nets 8.333 at the
processor clock input and that would make a XT-turbo. The problem with
such a speed up is that the peripherals and the ram have to be faster as
well to keep up.
I have a Leading Edge Mod D that I've tried that on and 6mhz(18mhz
crystal) was possible before needing to add wait states for IO and
memory. With one wait for both IO and mem 8mhz was doable. I wasn't
overclocking the cpu as it was a 10mhz V20. I may add at 6mhz the
average 8088 was likely to still be there as they were good for a shade
over 5mhz for the slow parts.
Allison
How fast did it run?
In a message dated 98-01-07 17:05:26 EST, you write:
<< [Overclocking]
I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire...
Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386
and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start
emitting black smoke.
This was before I knew they were useful...
------- >>
At 17:15 6/01/98 -0500, PG Manney wrote:
>> > MFM (early 80's?)
>>
>> Very early 80's, I think, for the ST-506.
>>
>> > RLL (late 80's?)
>>
>> I tend to think of this as a minor variation of MFM, myself :-)
>
>Not quite. The interface is the same (ST-506/412), but the encoding is
>different.
>
>RLL-encoded ST-506/412 drives were finicky, especially as regards
>temperature -- you shouldn't LLF them cold, for example.
The problem, however, as I understand it, wasn't the ST-506/412 interface
itself, it was the fact that most of the drives that used this interface
used stepper motors to move the R/W heads. The high-end voice-coil drives
that used the
ST-506/412 interface were *far* more reliable, and usually didn't have any
problems using RLL encoding.
Regards,
| Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads|
|Information Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." |
| University of Canberra |__________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_|
| scott(a)isd.canberra.edu.au |http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html |
In a message dated 98-01-07 17:05:26 EST, you write:
<< I once had a PC/XT overclocked to 25 or so MHz. It caught fire...
Basically, I just pulled the chip marked 25 MHz from a dead 386
and put it where the XT's ship was. It took about 10 minutes to start
emitting black smoke.
This was before I knew they were useful... >>
A friend of mine once told me that they used to replace the 1mhz? crystal
on Kim-1 boards with an 8mhz crystal. Man, that 6502 was real fast for a
while. :-)
Well, we have 10 IIcis, 10 Powermac 5400/180s (slow as molasses) 1 clone, 2
quadras. They are all used, the IIcis are limited in usefullness, because of
the lack of FDD functionality
In a message dated 98-01-07 20:18:49 EST, you write:
<< This will help lot. Otherwise, replace them with newer Mac clones.
Cheaper in long run and less headache especially if they're at
school lab still used? Also these clones uses regular 15pin monitors
that was used for PC's.
>>
Can someone please help this man? Please send your replies to:
COCarlson(a)aol.com
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:13:00 EST
From: COCarlson <COCarlson(a)aol.com>
To: vcf(a)siconic.com
Subject: help
I need a command interpreter (command.com?) for a Kaypro XT. I had backed up
the files and was then removing files in preparation for giving this computer
to a grandchild. I accidentally deleted the system files. I have them backed
up, but I can't get to the "restore" option until I can boot the computer.
Actually, a Low density "system" diskette would be great.
COCarlson(a)aol.com
In a message dated 98-01-07 15:26:19 EST, you write:
<< One Mac IIcx - what good about this
one? I used to work on similar configuration of that model
when I was at college doing homework. Comments please. >>
I have this model in my collection. i managed to get it for $25 but have not
been able to test it since mine came with a radius two page display card which
is useless without the monitor. i finally did get a 1bit video card for it,
but now need to find a mono display for it which i still havent found! the cx
is a 68030 running at 16mhz. a better deal would be the IIci model which is
25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a
special dongle.
RE: ps2 models; I have 3 of them: two 8530 and a 9577. the model 77 i bought
>from work when they upgraded to pc300 desktops. two scsi adaptors, 16 meg, 200
400meg scsi drives running hpfs and os2 3.0. its an industrial strength
machine, and will probably outlive any other computer i own.
david.
I like the IIcis. They're cute little things. Pretty fast, too. The only
problem, and I'm wondering if anyone could help me, is this. My experience
with them was in a Macintosh Lab at a school. They have been used there for ~7
years. They have two problems. One is that the monitors power up
intermittently, probably due to the transformer. Ideas? The other is the disk
drives. They were all blown out with compressed air, but still didn't start
working correctly. Ideas?
> a better deal would be the IIci model which is
> 25mhz and built in video which can be used with a vga monitor if you use a
> special dongle.
<I've got a line on a Tektronix 6132 workstations, and I'm wondering what
<exactly it is. According to the current owner it runs Berkeley UNIX ver
<4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet
<unused for the last 8 years, so who knows if it's working. He also
<referred to it as a UTek workstation.
<
<I didn't even know Tek made any computers, and web searches bring up zilc
Look inside it may be a DEC PDP-11 series machine in differnt garb.
Allison
At 08:39 PM 1/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
>The absolute
>standout First Prize response was from Uncle Roger, with such
>a bizzare comment that I am left speechless -- thanx Unc -- I
Woohoo! I won! Yippee!
What do I get?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
There is an awesome B205 page at the University of Virginia, plus
a pretty cool B5000 page nearby. Here's the URL:
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/brochure/images/manuals
It looks like they scanned in the original manuals for these beasties,
instead of just retyping them. Seeing the originals really adds to
the presentation, IMHO. And the B205 was _so_ cool - magnetic drum
as main memory! Those were the days.
Cheers,
Bill.
In a message dated 98-01-07 02:11:50 EST, you write:
<< I also picked up a Bernoulli box (that takes the 8" cartridges) and some
cartridges and can't recall who had the cartridges they were offering to
a good home. If whoever you are reads this, please send me an email.
That was $10 as well.
>>
Ah, that was me. I have 45 of the little beggers. Willing to let them go for
cost of shipping + soda money. Let me know how many you want.
Kelly
KFergason(a)aol.com
<The shiny layer is aluminum. I heard of someone who threw a
<favorite cd into lake in frustration, but few years later, found it
<again, it's ruined.
What people fail to realize is that plastics for the most part are not
hermetic! Over time most plastics absorb water and water will react
with aluminum to ozidize it. Same for plastic encapsulated chips!!!
It's that permeability of plastics that cause anything encapsulated
in them to degrade ofver time unless the material is passivated or
chemically stable (gold, platinum...). Heat accelerates the reactions.
Allison
> What happened? Water get through a scratch and the aluminum started
> corroding? Never dropped one in a lake, but my Warcraft II cd took a dip
> in the toilet one day. I'm still wondering how it got on top of the toilet
> in the first place...
I think there are plenty of mechanisms, not all well understood.
Example: Thermal cycling (repeated warming and cooling) causes
mechanical stresses. These grow microscopic cracks at imperfections /
scratches / impurities in the plastic until there is a path for
corroding chemicals (like water) to get in at the aluminium.
Some CDs now use a gold layer instead of an aluminium one. I don't know
how much longer these last.
The above mechanism can be combated by keeping the discs in a
temperature-controlled environment (a lake I would have thought would
not be too bad for that but obviously it was...) - but mechanical
stresses still occur when spinning up and down.
Just my 2d worth.
Philip.
At 07:14 AM 1/7/98 +0300, you wrote:
>ROM (not EEPROM!) with the data on it. It would be cool to see a drive that
>read ROMS, or, if you put a "blank" one in would burn it for you. Of course
>that's only good for a few K, but for text, that should be sufficent.
How about something in a cartridge format? Alot of Video game carts these
days are topping 8mb.
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
automatizaci=F3n de procesos industriales.
Desde hace varios a=F1os estamos instalando terminales de ALTOS IV. =
=20
Actualmente tenemos una delegaci=F3n en BRASIL, pero no tenemos
informaci=F3n si ustedes disponen de servicio t=E9cnico en Brasil.
Rogamos nos indiquen si lo tienen, as=ED como los servicios t=E9cnic=
os
de Iberoam=E9rica.
=20
Agradeciendo la atenci=F3n prestada:
Jose Manuel Soria V=E1zquez
----------------------------------------------
Finds:
Just before Christmas I found the following cassette software in ziplock
bags with the manual:
Extended Basic by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20
Resident Assembler by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20
Text Editor by Processor Technologies for the SOL-20
a terminal program (I forget the name) by Dynasty Computer for the=
SMART-Alec.
---------------------------------------------
I want to approach a company about getting permission to copy their
manuals and system software to distribute to other collectors.
I think that it would go smoother if I already had a contract drawn up
before hand. A generic agreement.
Does anyone have experience with this? Or are there any Lawyer/Collectors
out there? I'm looking for real experience.
If a document like this doesn't exist, it should. We need to do all
can towards tracking down who owns the rights to the software
that keeps our machines running and getting their permission to
copy it for others.
---------------------------------------------
Fun Fact:
The PMC101 "MicroMate" CP/M 3.0 System disk comes with a
utility called CONVERT which allows the user to configure any
of the floppy drives attached to the system (up to 4) to read and
write disks of a number of different CP/M formats. The disks
must already be formated. This utility makes it easy to transfer
files between these formats:
COMPUTER SIDES DENSITY =20
PMC-101 2 Double =20
PMC-101 1 Double =20
Omikron 1 Single =20
Kaypro II 1 Double =20
Osborne 1 Single =20
Osborne 1 Double =20
HP-125 2 Double =20
Xerox 820 II 1 Single =20
Xerox 820 II 1 Double =20
Dec 1 Double =20
IBM PC (CP/M) 1 Double =20
Zenith Z-37 1 Double =20
MicroDecision 1 Double
MicroDecision 2 Double
InterSystems 2 Double
InterSystems 1 Double
Televideo 802 2 Double
Cromemco 1 Single
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com =20
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc. =20
Sunnyvale,CA=20
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery =20
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Hey guess what, very odd. If you have the cart's in and you boot to a normal
plain old DOS disk, just type 123 and it Loads!! YES! Don't know how the
heck it does it, but it does work.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch(a)northernway.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 01, 1998 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: PCjr Lotus carts A and B
>;-) Bill Girnius head-scratched, yawned, then typed:
>>I have a set of these, they wont load, all my other carts work. Is there a
>>stupid command or disk I need, or are they busted?
>
>I'm quite sure that there is a boot disk that's needed as well, but I could
>never get my Jr's to spew out video very well... :-(
>
>HTH,
>Roger "Merch" Merchberger
>--
>Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed,
>Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not*
>zmerch(a)northernway.net | be your first career choice.
>
allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) writes:
> Actually there are people that have looked into landfills that are in the
> 100-200 years old range and they have found things in an amazing state of
> preservation.
It occurs to me that 100-200 years ago we did not have certain modern
conveniences, like the heavy tractors with big metal spiky rollers
and/or wheels that I've seen in use at landfills. I'd guess the
object is to flatten the refuse layer out by crushing it.
-Frank McConnell
Apologies to all.
On 1/3/98 at 12:05pm I attempted to send a private note to
Ward Donald Griffiths III, concerning his signature......
but it was posted publicly instead.
It was an accident. I believe that any group needs to limit
the discussion pretty strictly to the stated topic only, as
I've seen how it can get too far afield on other groups.
For the record, I hit the "reply to author" button, & it
replied to everybody. I'll try my best to be more careful
in the future.
Most of the people in the group simply ignored it, possibly
the most appropriate thing to do. About six (not many out of
200 total) reminded me that the subject was classic computers,
with varying degrees of civility -- nuff sed. The absolute
standout First Prize response was from Uncle Roger, with such
a bizzare comment that I am left speechless -- thanx Unc -- I
will be driving down to SF when you least expect it, & deliver
your new big heavy bible up side yo head. Just kidding.
---mikey
Where is she located exactly?
At 09:41 PM 1/6/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Needless to say I sent her a message tonite letting her know that I'm
>interested, and if it's something I don't want (probably due to where it
>is) that I'd pass the information onto people that will be interested.
>
>Who knows what started out as an insult, might turn out to be an
>interesting source.
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
I've got a line on a Tektronix 6132 workstations, and I'm wondering what
exactly it is. According to the current owner it runs Berkeley UNIX ver
4.2 with some 4.3 extensions. Apparently it's been sitting in a closet
unused for the last 8 years, so who knows if it's working. He also
referred to it as a UTek workstation.
I didn't even know Tek made any computers, and web searches bring up zilch.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
"David Williams" <dlw(a)neosoft.com> wrote:
> Also, anything on a DS200MC terminal server?
Assuming you mean a DECserver 200/MC, I was using these in 1988, so
I'd guess that they're acceptable for discussion on this list, or will
be soon enough.
As you wrote, it's a terminal server. Eight RS-232 ports with enough
modem control to support most asynchronous communications needs, and
an Ethernet port for connection to your LAN. As I recall there is
enough firmware in the thing to request an executable image via DEC's
MOP protocol, pick one responding host to download it from, and once
that image is downloaded (via MOP) and running, to do terminal and
printer service via DEC's LAT protocol. They do not do TCP/IP-suite
protocols, though later models of DECserver may.
Hence you can plug terminals, modems, printers, or computers into the
RS-232 ports, and set them up so that either they connect to other
computers via LAT, or so that other computers (or other terminal
server ports) can connect via LAT to "services" associated with the ports.
Generally speaking, they're not real useful outside DEC environments,
but are very useful there.
-Frank McConnell
First off, though not quite 10 years, I'd love to find an affordable 3.5"
ESDI hard drive in the 100-500mb range for my PS/2 model 70 lunchbox.
Second, Does anyone know when the various hard drive interfaces were
developed? The ones I can think of include:
MFM (early 80's?)
RLL (late 80's?)
SCSI (late 70's?)
ESDI (?)
IDE
any others? Thanks...
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
>I'm starting to wonder about how common the C-64c is. I have yet to see
>one, I picked up the manuals when a favorite bookstore had a set a few
>months back. Then last weekend I was at the bookstore and they had like 3
>or 4 sets of manual. But like I said I've never seen an actual computer!
I'm assuming you mean the different case design - over here (South
Australia) they seem to be as common as the old breadbox sort, but I
suspect that in numbers they are slightly less than the older designs. I
have three of them, and I only wanted the one. As far as I know there are
no functional changes, although Commodore had a history of working out
ways to make systems cheaper, so there may be a difference internally.
I did find one old C64 in a third-party case which looked very much like
the C64c, though. Interestingly enough it was made here - I would have
picked it up, but I shy away from collecting computers based on the
different cases, as there are too many to collect just based on the
different systems themselves, and space is limited.
Adam.
What did you expect? I mean, it was in the lake, with moving water all
around it, fish, plants, and lord knows what else brushing aginst it, and so
forht. The perfect form of data preservation is probably punched tape, or,
ROM (not EEPROM!) with the data on it. It would be cool to see a drive that
read ROMS, or, if you put a "blank" one in would burn it for you. Of course
that's only good for a few K, but for text, that should be sufficent.
-----Original Message-----
From: jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca <jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: I don't believe this ****
> At 11:49 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >discolored. There should be a better way to compost them...
> >Allow enough O2 there, it will decompose and oxidize better.
>
> What do you think about CD-ROMS? I hear they have have a much longer
> capacity to hold data, as opposed to 15 years for VHS tapes in average
> conditions. Would UV be the major factor in CD-ROM deterioration?
Actually, the sealer on that side of any cdrom label side is pretty
easy to scratch, once that happens, the life is really shortened!
The shiny layer is aluminum. I heard of someone who threw a
favorite cd into lake in frustration, but few years later, found it
again, it's ruined.
Jason D.
>
> - John Higginbotham
> - limbo.netpath.net
>
>
>
Yes, actually, there are a couple of companies that do that. (Only recycle
computers) They take PC's or Macs. They're currently mostly only used by
corporate managers trying to find a green way to get rid of their Windows
3.1 machines, but they get paid a little in return. They're trying to
become more home-orginized, but the word needs to get out. They report that
2% of the weight of a 3 year old computer is dust!!!
As for what happens with landfills, I've heard that studies show that
it's the plastic. (I'd guess that it like forms a bubble covering the
newspapers, etc. blocking out all air, etc.) That would make it
near-perfect preservation, even into tripple or, even quad digit numbers.
Near the bottom, there's more air.
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: I don't believe this ****
>> > > >>computers been contacted by someone that wants to dispose of your
>> > > >>collection as scrap? Talk about insulting!
>
>Yes, that was completely tactless on their part. Maybe if they collect
>something like Hummels, perhaps you should have offered to grind them up
>to make spackle.
>
>> > You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd
>> > rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a
reasonably
>> > efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a
>> > landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away
>> > under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them
>> > scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice....
>
>I agree here, and for the most part, the majority of computers end up
>being recycled, either in the U.S. or abroad.
>
>I have nothing against the scrappers, other than those that flat out
>refuse to deal with the collectors. It is VERY efficient (something like
>98% by mass get recycled now - CRTs and some photocopier parts are the
>only stumbling blocks), and frankly, one can make a good living at it.
>What one can not make a good living at is refurbishing them - they just
>get devalued too fast.
>
>Lets face it, we can not save it all. True, we should try to get the
>goodies into the collector's hands so they survive. Often in makes more
>sense to try to resell a system than to scrap it (like the TT030). For the
>most part, however, computers (and other electronics) probably should be
>scrapped. For example, one place I deal with in Kansas City (and now
>Chicago) has a roomful of IBM Series/1 minicomputers all humming away.
>Eventually, they will get decommissioned. If I were a scrapper and won the
>bid for them (sometimes the bid just means picking them up!), I would keep
>one for myself, one sripped down for spares, and offer any others to
>members on the list (or the collecting community in general). If those
>latter ones do not move, they would get scrapped. This applies to just
>about anything, PeeCees, VT100s, ES/9000s, C64s, etc. - with the exception
>of the special machines (_old_ machines, prototypes, high demand
>collectables, etc.). Obviously, the day I scrap a S/360 will never come.
>
>William Donzelli
>william(a)ans.net
>
>
<Never moved a LA-120 so fast in my life... Oh, my boss heard what happene
<When asked "when they fix th' 100, you want me to swap it back?", the ans
<was a brief "Nope!". I actually have one of those "evil" LA-100's.. Glad
<my dislike for th' thing..
Little history since I was in that group. The LA120 was the longest
running hardcopy printer dec ever made. It's hallmarks were rugged as
hell, ugly print quality even through 8 copies of NCR paper! I used to
call it the paper punch as to do 8 copies you had to really punch it.
Inside DEC it was the preferred hardcopy console.
I also happen to have a LA100RO and as a wide platten printer of later
design it was pretty good. It also was spec'd to 6 copies thick.
Allison
For the longest time, when I was very young, I thought those movies were
made in black and white because everything WAS black and white. Crazy, huh?
At 01:38 AM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote:
>I know, I like to have both choices anyway because I'm curious what
>colors looked like at that time also enjoy the b/w for it's quality.
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
I saw a DECWriter II today near the trash. It was a typewriter-style thing
bolted to a table. I didn't stay around long, because there was a security
camera watching (what are they for above the trash anyway, for god's sake?). I
couldn't have dragged it away, or put it anywhere, anyway. So, what did I
miss?
classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Subj: Re: Wtd: ESDI 3.5" hd + hd ?'s
Tony Duell wrote:
!> MFM (early 80's?)
!> RLL (late 80's?)
!> SCSI (late 70's?)
!> ESDI (?)
!> IDE
!>
!> any others? Thanks...
!
!I can't help with dates, but there are a lot of others :
!
!SASI (forerunner of SCSI)
!SMD
!HPIB :-) (Seriously, HP did make large-ish hard disks with an HPIB interface)
!Massbus (?)
!
!And the custom ones :
!Shugart SA4000 (one 50 wire cable)
!Shugart SA1000 (50 wire control cable, that could be shared with 8" floppy
!drives, and a 20/26 wire data cable)
!DEC : R80 (almost SMD, but different enough to give you headaches!),
!RK05, RL01, RK06, etc... Doubtless other manufactures had similar custom
!interfaves
!Diablo 30 (almost the same as RK05, but not quite)
!Micropolis 1200 (either the raw 50 wire interface, or the formatted one.
!There was a standard Micropolis controller for the latter)
Well - now that the discussion has turned to disk drives and such I would like
to ask in general (not necessarily to Tony in particular): where might I be
able to find either an ESDI or a SCSI controller for the Q22 bus in a
MicroVAX II? Shop names and addresses in the Bay area would be especially
helpful but I am perfectly happy to look elsewhere (even DEC). Alas, the
recently mentioned organization with a web page at http://www.dda.org/dda.html
apparently does not list any hardware (not even if you "subscribe"(?)).
Thanks to the efforts of a member of this list I am now the extremely happy
owner of a uVAX II with three RD53 bootable drives (Ultrix 1.2, 2.1, &&
VMS 5.4 - the latter (c) 1990 and not strictly classic software :=}). At any
rate, I would like to up the disk capacity of the machine by a fair amount and
install a decent C compiler (Under VMS I am currently limited to DCL and MACRO
as the only programming languages - oddly I have both FORTRAN and PASCAL verbs
in my DCLTABLES but no such images under SYS$SYSROOT.)
A big thanks to this list for information already provided as well as that
anticipated.
Peter Prymmer
I have a Heathkit H-8 computer in working order with documentation,
software, terminal (H-19), disk drives that I no longer use. I'd like
to find someone who can make good use of this equipment.
It would be helpful if you can handle shipping costs but everything is
negotiable.
If you are interested, please send email or call 408-881-3489.
--Bill Hall
Anybody got manuals or hints for the S-BUG and DELABS monitor ROMs?
I scored a SwTPC 69/A today that has both of these, but I only
sorta remember S-BUG from way-back-when, and have never even heard
of DELABS.
To jiggle your memories, here are some of the S-BUG commands that
I remember/figured-out today:
^A - set accumulator A
^B - " " B
etc. for other registers
G - go to address in PC
R - show registers
S - show stack
D - boot from disk (?)
E - examine memory
P - punch (motorola S19 format memory dump)
As for the DELABS ROM, it seems to be involved with the EPROM burner.
I suspect it can read & write EPROMs, and maybe up/download binaries
over one of the serial ports. But I've only figured out a few of its
commands:
D - memory hex dump
F - fill memory
I suppose I'll end up disassembling them both eventually, but hints
could make the job much easier, and maybe unnecessary.
Thanks!
Bill.
] You guys know that I agree with your sentiment 100%. That said, I'd
] rather see the systems melted down for scrap (assuming it's a reasonably
] efficient and environmentally safe process) than to see them go into a
] landfill. I can't imagine how many beautiful systems are rusting away
] under 3 million tons of garbage someplace. I don't want to see them
] scrapped either, mind you, but given the choice....
Imagine this, fifty years from now, a web of nanotech bots climbing
through and mapping a landfill, finding antique treasures, maybe getting
enough chemical data to reconstruct the things before decay set in...
I'd vote for the landfill over the slag heap any day. Of course, my
basement, when I get one, will be the best option.
] Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
Bill.
Until it fills up.
At 10:42 AM 1/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I have an Integral, but it's ROM just has the HP-UX kernel and PAM --
>just enough to boot and run things. So I have /usr/bin (Unix
>utilities, C compiler, &c) on a 9134 for when I actually want to do
>something with it.
Are you saying that there is no internal hard drive int the IPC? Wierd.
Okay, so since I'd love to have one, let me ask this in advance: Has anyone
come up with an HP-IB (IEEE-488?) to SCSI or IDE adapter? It would be great
to tack a little 3.5" (or even 2.5") hard drive on the side. Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
Hi, I just picked up an Altair 8800a. It has a North Star disk drive
controller in it. I think it uses a Shugart Sa400 drive. Does anyone know
if it uses a hard sectored or soft sectored disk? Where can I find a SA
400? I know they were very common in the old computers. I have access to a
lot of old computers (old Tandys, Commodores and other stranger things.)
Can anyone tell me which ones migh t have a SA 400 drive? Yes, Yes, I know
you're all going to be PO'd that I would use one of those old machines for
parts, but I've offered them to people over and over and no one is
interested unless I PAY them to take them.
Joe
Qedit
> is an incredible editor while MPEX extends the capabilities of the OS.
Yeah, but they want something like $90 for it! I found another, that's free
(even has spell check). Will send to anyone on request.
manney(a)nwohio.com
John Higginbotham <higginbo(a)netpath.net> wrote:
> They run blindingly fast,
>making them utterly worthless unless you use one of those slowdown utils,
>but most of those only run right on 486s.
Again, there must be a market for better emulation / slowdown software.
There should be a way to put the Pentium in an 8008 compatibility mode. :-)
>>Three, that ancient games don't "hurt" today's software market. Doing what?
>
>Doing what? Being available for "free" (illegally) out there for people to
>get to them. The fact that people are still playing them doesn't affect
>today's game market at all.
Yes, the sales of old software might be a very small fraction of mainstream
games, so small as to have no effect - but I don't like to play fast-and-loose
with self-created and self-serving notions of "it's not hurting anyone" when
it comes to intellectual property issues.
>But repackaging the games and shipping them would up the price to at least
>$10.00 a piece,
Maybe the net and micropayments will help. Or in this case, a web site
with do-it-yourself downloading of $10 bundles of 20 old games might
satify both the developers and the funding of the site. Shareware is
a *sure* way to gather no cash, especially with a dusty product like this.
Being afflicted with entrepreneur's disease, I've toyed with the
idea of this as a business: collecting up the distribution rights
for old software, bundling them on CD, adding emulators, and selling
for reasonable prices, etc. to recreate the old computer experience.
As they say, they're not making any more "retro." :-)
The hard parts would be finding the rightful owners, forging
acceptable contracts with each, and without giving them the impression
that millions are to be made. Or in some cases, if the companies
that owned the products are truly *gone*, to be willing to take
the risk they wouldn't sue you if you assumed you could distribute.
Apropo the other thread about today's tendency to throw out 486s...
as-is, they still run yesterday's games, word processors, educational
apps, etc. for schools, libraries, senior centers, day care centers, etc.
It's such a shame this stuff isn't being reused. A 486/33 with
8 megs and Linux makes a perfectly acceptable firewall.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
<Apropo the other thread about today's tendency to throw out 486s...
<as-is, they still run yesterday's games, word processors, educational
<apps, etc. for schools, libraries, senior centers, day care centers, etc
<It's such a shame this stuff isn't being reused. A 486/33 with
<8 megs and Linux makes a perfectly acceptable firewall.
Sheesh,
I consider my good system with bells and whistles hot and it's a lowly
486DX2/50 with 8meg and 516mb disk! The next ones down from there is a
386dx/33(128k cache) and a 486sx/25(no cache). Scary that I consider
what I have pretty adaquate (I run Gcadd, Netscape3+, and a few other
heavies).
Allison
