< He's got to be thinking of the HP 9800 series. I'm not sure when the
I gotta get that sex change. It happens it's MS Allison and I don't have
the problem of the wife objecting. Anyhow 9800 series it was most likely
as when I'd seen it it was not new and I was doing 8008 design when that
part was $180 each!
Allison
OK, I've powered on both of the systems with the PDP-11/73 processor boards
in it. I now know that they are apparently "SMS 1000" machines, but I've
been able to find nothing on it on the net, except for a web page that has
a picture of one in a 'tower' case
http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/collection/manufacturer-sms/1000.html
Mine is in a rack mount case though.
It has 5 buttons and a small alphanumeric LED display that gives some
system info when the system is powering up. I'm quite honestly not sure
how to proceed. I've connected a laptop running TELIX for VT100 emulation.
This gave me some trouble initially, but it started working once I added a
"Null Modem" adapter I had (trust me you don't want to see the console
cable I put together with three adapters).
The display and buttons are layed out like this.
+-----------------------------+
| DISPLAY |
+-----------------------------+
+------+------+------+------+
| MENU | < | > | * |
+--+---+---+--+---+--+---+--+
| RE | RUN | WRT |
| START | HALT | PROT |
+-------+------+------+
On the one with the 5.25" floppy I get the following when it comes up.
SMS 1000 BOOTSTRAP
256KW MEMORY 11/73 CPU
BOOTABLE DEVICES:
DEVICE DEVICE UNIT
NAME TYPE NUMBERS
DU DSA 0-15
MU TK50 0
MS TS 0
ENTER DEVICE NAME AND UNIT NUMBER: AUTO - BOOT
BOOTING FROM DEVICE 0
***THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM ***
000034
@
On the one with the 8" I get
HELLO MIKE BOOTSTRAP
256KW MEMORY 11/73 CPU
BOOTABLE DEVICES:
DEVICE DEVICE UNIT
NAME TYPE NUMBERS
DU DSA 0-15
MU TK50 0
MS TS 0
ENTER DEVICE NAME AND UNIT NUMBER: AUTO - BOOT
BOOTING FROM DEVICE 1
BOOT-U-CI/O error
000724
@
I played around and they both appear to default to the correct device
numbers for Hard Drives. It gives me a *** DEVICE NOT IN SYSTEM *** if I
try to access MU0 or MS0. Well, MU0 is no surprise, I know it doesn't have
a TK50 in it, but I've no idea what the TS is, or how I would, or if I
could boot from floppy.
The 'C' in BOOT-U-CI/O error is actually a wierd c like character with a
little squiggely under it.
I'm assuming the first simply doesn't have an OS, and that the second has
some sort of hardware problem, most likely a dead Hard Drive. I've tried
to ensure that all the connections on both are good. I've learned that
typing in 173000G at the @ prompt will get me back to the "ENTER DEVICE
NAME AND UNIT NUMBER:" and that I can then specify a device instead of
letting it go with it's own choice.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I can do at this point? I'm
guessing not much until I can scrounge an OS from somewhere. Is it
possible to attach the RL02's from the /44 and see if I can boot off of
those? What kind of a card does it take to interface with a RL02?
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
-----Original Message-----
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)ricochet.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 2:40 AM
Subject: What I did this weekend
>A busy weekend, actually.
>
>1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems:
> Amstrad PPC640
I didn't know these were available in the US. I just hauled one back
(PPC512) from France last week and I thought that I had a very original
portable (even though it got pretty heavy waiting for customs;)
Were there any other of the Amstrad marketted in the US like the CPC series?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Francois Auradon.
Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>I've got one in the basement... six-seven years ago, I even had it
>>fired up over DECnet, talking to Macs and Amigas over Ethernet.
>>Haven't gotten around to documenting it for my web page, though.
>
>Ah, what does it take to get it talking to Mac's and Amiga's? I'm assuming
>if this can be done for the DEC Pro 350, I can do something simular with
>the 11/73 or a VAX.
Well, it takes DECnet networking software. For a while, my company made
and sold a version of DECnet for the Amiga, a licensed port of the
Mac DECnet called TSSnet from Thursby Software <http://www.thursby.com/>.
I don't even have a copy any more, and I've long forgotten how to
use it. You might be able to find a used copy. Don't even bother
to ask Thursby for an Amiga version.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
At 04:43 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
>> >> first portable computer
>> >
>> >Again, same problem. Define "portable". Allison carted, what was it, a
>>
>> Well, if you believe the Smithsonian's "Museum of American History" and I
>> believe DEC's advertising this goes to one of the PDP's, I don't remember
>> which one. I don't think it was a -8 or -11, and it's been over four years
>> since I was last to the museum so my memory isn't the best. They showed
>> the computer being in the back of a convertible IIRC, and actually had the
>> computer there at the musuem. Big sucker.
>
>Wasn't there a DEC ad showing a PDP-8 fitting in the trunk (boot, or is
>that a hood or bonnet?) of a VW bug? Would that qualify it as portable?
Don't know about that one, but the PDP-8/i was available in a (rarely seen)
'pedistal' configuration that would have been fairly easy to move around,
and the PDP-8/e/f/m came in a 'desktop' configuration that even had handles
on the side. (the 'major' qualification for something to be considered
'portable'). At about 90 pounds for the complete (core, no disks)
configuration, it could be moved with minimal pain by two people...
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
<Close, the Altair 8800 was introduced as the cover project in the Januar
<1975 issue of Popular Electroncs.
Back in those days the January 1975 issues was recieved by mid december at
the latest. I know as the cover of my issue has the last of MITS numbers
and a $1300 total and a mailing date in december 1974.
Also the machine on the cover bore only a resemblance to the production
machine as it was a proto.
ALlison
Can anyone help this guy? Please respond directly to him.
Thanks,
--pec
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:12:00 +0100
From: Haering Martin <MARTIN.HAERING(a)hl.siemens.de>
To: Paul E Coad <pcoad(a)wco.com>
Subject: AW: Re: MCS-85 manual wanted
Hello Paul,
thank you very much for your quick respose.
You're right, I'm german and I can see the problem with shipping. But I
think we would find a solution there.
But let me first tell you that my problem has changed now. I looked for
the MCS-85 manual on my loft and - under a thick layer dust - i found it
there. But instantly my next problem arised: I'm looking now for the
SDK-85 manual. Even though the System Development Kit is described in
the MCS-85 book, I need more detailed information to operate my old SDK
board.
Can you help me with this matter, too. I can see on several web pages,
that some of your universities still use the MCS-85 and ask for the SDK
manual for the lessons, but I can't get the manual itself over the net
or any source to buy it.
Now my question is: Do you have the SDK-85 manual for sale yourself or
can you tell me a source or seller to get it?
Thank you for your support in advance
Martin
----------
A busy weekend, actually.
1) I took pictures of a bunch of systems:
Atari Portfolio
Radio Shack Model 100
Epson HX-20
NEC PC-8401a
GRiD GRiDCase 3
NEC PC-8201A
Apple Mac Portable
Hewlett-Packard LS/12
Data General DG One
Altima 2
IBM PC Radio
Amstrad PPC640
Osborne 01
Compaq Portable 386
GRiD GRiDPad 1910
Hewlett-Packard 75D
Amstrad PenPad PDA600
Panasonic Sr. Partner
2) Got them developed
3) bought a Land Rover (actually, 2)
4) wrote a system to automatically generate web pages for each of my
computers based on simple data files. It uses 4 data files: Text,
Resources, misc. Data, and Image list. There are a handful of template
files used to build the actual web page. So all I have to do is come up
with some text about the computer and lists of related links, images and
specs to generate the web page.
So, expect me to be asking about some of my systems in the near future.
And, if anyone is interested in using this program, let me know. It's
written in QBasic for DOS (Is that 10 years old?) but could probably be
ported to just about anything. (In fact, I'll bet Perl or Cobol would be
even better for some things.)
You can see a sample of the layout it generates at
<http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/m100.htm>. Note, the pics aren't there.
I'd love to get any feedback anyone cares to offer.
Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
Talk about coincidence, after this thread popped up, and me never having
laid eyes on a C-64c, I found one in a local thrift shop. Bought the whole
thing, included a 1541 floppy, all cables, a whole box of software, and a
Magnovox RGB color monitor, which I now have hooked up to my Atari Jag. I
never noticed before how much sharper those RGB monitors are compared to TVs.
Well, I plan on playing with the C-64c for a while, but when I tire of it,
I'll be selling it, sans monitor. Anyone be interested?
At 09:02 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I see them from time to time here in the TwinCities. I do not buy them
>anymore, I have 6. They have shape like the C128 and the same color and
>run all the old cartridges.
-John Higginbotham-
-limbo.netpath.net-
At 04:38 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe wrote:
>
>> >> first personal computer (I think I know that one)
>>
>> I think the credit on this one has to go to the IBM 5100 again. It was
>> released in 1975.
>
>Is it not true, then, that Ed Roberts coined the term 'personal computer'
>to describe the Altair? (That's the legend I've been led to believe.)
I don't know if he did or not but the Altair wasn't announced til
January 1976 or 77 (I don't remember which but I have the magazine that it
was announced in.) The IBM 5100 was already in production in 1975.
Joe
>
>> Joe>
>
>ttfn
>srw
>
>
Allison wrote:
> < The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had
> <BASIC or APL or both!
>
> The HP system predated it but, I may have the number wrong. It was
> programmed in industrial BASIC.
Allison, I'm really having trouble figuring out what you're thinking of.
Even as far forward as 1975, the only HP systems I can think of that
ran BASIC were minis. The 2100 and 2114 would have been the smallest
of these, and both are boxes that really want to be in 19" racks but
can be made to sit on tabletops and can be carried (I am certain that
the 2100 has handles and think the 2114 does too). If carrying one
doesn't convince you that it wants to be in a 19" rack or at least
left sit I don't know what will.
The closest thing I can think of is the HP 85, which is a fairly small
and lightweight complete system, with keyboard, display, printer, and
cartridge tape in the box. It was also "portable" in that you could
get matching luggage for it. Next closest might be some of the 98xx
calculator/workstations, but I think those were either programmed like
calculators or in HPL, not BASIC. But all of this is late 1970s-1980
stuff.
Maybe I'm just having a brain lapse?
-Frank McConnell
Tony, Allison, Roger:
Thanks for the quick tutorial on microcode. I knew that it was an
involved topic worthy of many hundreds of pages of text, but you did a great
job of giving me a thumbnail of the topic.
Tony, thanks for the book refs. I'll try to track some of them down.
Rich Cini/WUGNET
<nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use)
ClubWin! Charter Member (6)
MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
============================================
< I believe the Japanese Busicom calculator is even older and dates from
<about 1966.
busicom had some calcs before the one based on the 4004 but the 4004
design was 1971. By the there were other multichip designs but none
as low a chip count as the 4004 nor were the as general in application.
Up to that point calculator chip implementations were totally custom
singular designs.
Actually there were some chips before the intel part like the 3101 and
6700 bit slices. It took a lot of parts and design effort to make a
computer as general as the 4004 though those parts were far faster.
The 4004 and later parts were along the lines of reducing custom silicon
solutions or hard wired designs to programatic solutions. As
microprocessors became faster and self contained they were able to solve
more problems that were either silicon intensive, real estate intensive or
flat out too fast for digital solutions at the time. At the other end of
the spectrum they created markets and applications that would not have
been anticipated. After all who'ed ever though you'd need a custom
programmed micro for a microwave or washing machine?
Allison
> I was wondering if anyone knew how to install a Hayes 9600 modem into
> an XT (Ogivar Tech.).
This is slightly off-topic, so e-mail me privately and I'll tell you.
manney(a)nwohio.com
I deal a _lot_ with new users, so my answers are a bit different. I use
precise, non-standard (but descriptive) terminology. My goal is to employ
labels such that non-users can understand instantly what I mean.
> For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU
> a "console".
I call 'em a "keyboard", as that is what they look like.
> The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would
> be "computers"
Me too. More precisely, "old-style computer"
>
> Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a
> system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard,
monitor,
> disk drives, perhaps a mouse...
I call the --
Monitor => Screen
Case => System box
I always stress that the 3 1/2" is called a "floppy ", because a surprising
number of people think that they are "hard drives". I also see them
commonly called "tapes" (and installing a program is commonly called
"programming")
>
> Also, things like a PDP or DG Nova would be "systems", but I think people
> prefer to refer to them as "mini's".
I just call them computers -- newbies generally don't know the difference.
(Besides, if you gave up your old stuff and all got PC's with Win95, you
would have _real_ computers and get _real_ work done....snicker snicker.)
(Quick! Now, I gotta change my e-mail address, lest I be buried under tons
of irate e-mail...)
manney(a)nwohio.com
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> There is also a terminal with it, a "Ann Arbor XL Series" that connects via
> a Serial line. Does anyone have any idea what kind of terminal this is?
> It's very wierd, it's the only ASCII terminal that I've seen which is a
> portrait-mode terminal! Is this some kind of VT-100 compatible or
> something? The only thing I've ever seen that even comes close is some of
> the old Macintosh monitors.
It's probably a flavor of the Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal. I
remember them as being in somewhat widespread use by Unix folks in the
early-to-mid 1980s, their major feature being the number of lines of
source you could fit on the screen. They pretty much fell out of
favor across the mid-1980s with the proliferation of bit-mapped
displays.
-Frank McConnell
>You missed calculators and there are rough catagories:
>
>First eletronic calc
>
>first pocket calc
>
>HP35 $700, the lowcost market breaker being the Bomar Brain.
>
>First programable calc
Good point here thank you. By the way the list was not exhaustive pleas feel
free to add anything and everything you want.
>
>
><first personal computer (I think I know that one)
>
>If you mean PC (as in the IBM PC) then the answer is IBM. However if you
>man pc as in personally owned computer, then you go back by maybe 10-20
What I meant by personal computer was computers mass produced for the home
market. But the rest is still good. What was the first computer to enter the
home (coming from the industry)?
><first portable computer
>
>Define portable as I'd seen totables in the late 70s. One very nice one
>was an expanded EVK68 board in a classy wood case with a small crt and
>keyboard.
My interpretation of portable is a computer that is meant to be moved from
place to place fairly easilly: that means integrated monitor, disk drive (or
tape player), a carrying handle (or two).
>
>One that comes to mind was the HP(5100?) complete packaged system with
>tape for storage and basic and GPIB for external interface.
>
><first laptop
>
>Not sure but it wasnt a dos based for sure. Tandy trs100 or the similar
>NEC, Epson, and others.
>
><first GUI
>
>Xerox PARC smalltalk
>
><first OS
>
>This is real old likely in the late 40s early 50s and was likely a
>machine monitor system to load/save programs. Even the PDP-1 had an OS
>to timeshare multiple users. You may have to be more specific as to tthe
>type or style of OS as there are several and the appearance of each
>corosponds to emerging concepts in computing.
>
>Allison
>
>> > first video game
>>
>> "Computer Space" which was Atari's first video game. I think someone may
>> correct me and tell me it wasn't "Atari" yet, but it was created by Nolan
>> Bushnell.
>
>Spacewar for the PDP-1 is the granddaddy. Still runs, once a year
>(hopefully, if the West Coast computer museum keeps up the tradition).
Wouldn't that be the first computer game? I am not familliar with the PDP-1
but it sounds like a computer name.
>
<> own research you will tend to agree. Some will argue that the Apple ]
<> was the first (by this definition). But the Sol-20 beat it by a few
<> months.
<
<When did the Sphere-1s start shipping? My boards have 1975 dates on them
Early 75 and they do predate the polymorphic systems-88 and PT-sol that
was latest of the three.
Allison
Hi all,
Is there an official name for all various computer packages?
What I trying to find is how to call a computer that is just a keyboard that you plug on the TV (a la C64)versus a computer that has everything attached (TRS 80 mod 4) versus a PC style where components are separate.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Francois Auradon.
Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon
Some how I don't think that the two PDP-11's that were supposed to be /23's
are, but at least they do appear to be PDP-11's. So my question is what is
a M9192? The list I have shows it as being a "DUAL HEIGHT CPU BRD", which
is "real" informative! According to the list I've got the 23's CPU's have
different numbers.
They both have 256KW of 18-bit memory. This brings up an interesting
question, how many bytes are there in in a Word when you're talking
PDP-11's? Since it's 18 my guess would be 2 with parity bits.
While I'm asking I've got some other cards that I can't identify, I think
that they're for PDP's and not VAX's. Does anyone recognize any of these,
or have a good place on the net for me to look?
SCD-RQD11/EC -- this one had 6 connectors for ribbon cables
M8059-KP -- I believe it's 64k, is it for PDP?
M3104 DHV11 -- It's got two ribbon connectors, by guess is it's for adding
other terminals. I seem to have a pair.
Distributed Logic Corp. DQ342 -- no idea, two ribbon connectors
Plessey P/N 70590-100A -- looks to be a RAM board
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
< I don't think a Cincinati Millicron would hardly be considered a
<"Personal Computer" no matter what the number of owners.
That specific machine was about the same size as a PDP-8e and about 60
pounds. For that era that was very compact and light. But personal it
was as at that time it resided in my bedroom while I was trying to write
some simple code via asr33/ptape.
< The 5100 was IBM's first "Personal Computer" (their words). It had
<BASIC or APL or both!
The HP system predated it but, I may have the number wrong. It was
programmed in industrial BASIC.
Allison
I've got one in the basement... six-seven years ago, I even had it
fired up over DECnet, talking to Macs and Amigas over Ethernet.
Haven't gotten around to documenting it for my web page, though.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
But then where would the mac (toaster style) fit? Computer or system?
I am not sure the term computer to differenciate the box styles is adequate
since they are all basically "Computers" I guess what I'm trying to find is
a term to differenciate the packaging of computers.
Also consoles is used for video games that plugs on the TV and would cause
confusion.
System is a pretty broad designation that can describe a lost of things.
Am I getting picky or what? Maybe we need to invent some terms a la jargon
in order to differentiate the various types of packaging.
>For computers like the C-64, the TI-99/4a, Atari 800, etc. I call the CPU
>a "console". Basically, anything with an integrated CPU, keyboard and
>video output I call a console. I don't tend to think of things like the
>Apple ][ as "consoles" because they didn't use a TV as their monitor by
>default, which the above systems generally did (there goes my Apple ][
>bias again). But really, the Apple ][ fits my description of "console".
>
>The all-in-one dealies like the TRS-80 Model II/III and their ilk would
>be "computers" because they have all the basic adjuncts to define an
>entire computer in the most generic sense of the word (CPU, keyboard,
>display, storage).
>
>Piece-part systems like the IBM, I'd call "systems" because you have a
>system consisting of a CPU and peripherals, such as the keyboard, monitor,
>disk drives, perhaps a mouse...
>
>Also, things like a PDP or DG Nova would be "systems", but I think people
>prefer to refer to them as "mini's".
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer,
Jackass
>
> Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
>
I meant by the original posting to try to gather a list of firsts. Any definitions of first are acceptable and if they can be extended to familly of hardware, software, packaging gimmicks etc. is OK.
What I found interesting in the question is more in the order of finding out how long an idea has been out there and how many categories can be found. I see a lot of questions about defining such and such term I guess it is more fun to find out what YOU understand by the words OS, Personal computer, etc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Francois Auradon <francois.auradon(a)worldnet.att.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 6:18 AM
Subject: Firsts
Here's a questionthat is probably going to generate some passionate debates:
What are the firsts?
first video game
first TV video game
first personal computer (I think I know that one)
first portable computer
first laptop
first GUI
first OS
etc...
It would be interesting to compile a list of first with their date of appearance.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Francois Auradon.
Visit the SANCTUARY at http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon
At 11:13 PM 1/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>When I go back tomorrow, I'm going to try to pick up the HP IPC, Kaypro
>2000, and DG One I saw. (:
>
>
What were they wanting for the HP IPC? If you don't want it, I'll take
it off your hands. BE SURE to look around for any external HP disk drives!
Get an HP-IB cable or two if they have them but don't let them overcharge
you for them. A lot of people act like they're made of gold.
Joe
classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Subj: Re: Firsts
Allison J Parent wrote:
>You missed calculators and there are rough catagories:
>
>First eletronic calc
>
>first pocket calc
>
>HP35 $700, the lowcost market breaker being the Bomar Brain.
>
>First programable calc
Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to
the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel
4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit
shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to
Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The Microprocessor:
A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0 (which is not a great book: much content was
apparently largely dictated by the PR departments of a few Silicon Valley
companies and thrown together much as a newspaper article would be. It
nontheless contains some interesting photos and bibliographic references
and I think was the result of a rushed editorial deadline (why would a
publisher rush a history book?)).
><first OS
>
>This is real old likely in the late 40s early 50s and was likely a
>machine monitor system to load/save programs. Even the PDP-1 had an OS
>to timeshare multiple users. You may have to be more specific as to tthe
>type or style of OS as there are several and the appearance of each
>corosponds to emerging concepts in computing.
There are references to the operation of the IBM/Harvard Mark I (programming
loops were constructed by literally looping the input tape back on itself e.g.)
It could be argued that such an early machine was not a stored program computer
hence could not even support an OS. If however one does not limit oneself
to only software notions of OS then the "Start" button could be considered to
be an OS - implemented in hardware. I personally don't know much about the
early Sperry Rand or Manchester->Ferranti computers (first commercial computers)
since so much of the widely available literary records are dominated by IBM's
history, but certainly by the time of the IBM 705 (mid 50's) there were OSes.
Few of the early ones were time-sharing and many were not even "full-duplex".
Peter Prymmer
You missed calculators and there are rough catagories:
First eletronic calc
first pocket calc
HP35 $700, the lowcost market breaker being the Bomar Brain.
First programable calc
<first personal computer (I think I know that one)
If you mean PC (as in the IBM PC) then the answer is IBM. However if you
man pc as in personally owned computer, then you go back by maybe 10-20
years to things like old surplus missle computers, homebrewed systems and
PDP-8s and the like. Prior to the IBM abortion pc meant personally owned
and was not based on what it was but who owned it. Personally owned
computers was a new thing starting in the late 60s to early 70s. Around
72-73 it was possible to buy a used PDP-8 or CM2000 for a few thousand
dollars. I know in December of 72 I almost bought a Cincinati Millicron
CM2000 for the offered price of $2000(big bucks then) with 8k of core,
serial line card and 6port muxed serial card.
<first portable computer
Define portable as I'd seen totables in the late 70s. One very nice one
was an expanded EVK68 board in a classy wood case with a small crt and
keyboard.
One that comes to mind was the HP(5100?) complete packaged system with
tape for storage and basic and GPIB for external interface.
<first laptop
Not sure but it wasnt a dos based for sure. Tandy trs100 or the similar
NEC, Epson, and others.
<first GUI
Xerox PARC smalltalk
<first OS
This is real old likely in the late 40s early 50s and was likely a
machine monitor system to load/save programs. Even the PDP-1 had an OS
to timeshare multiple users. You may have to be more specific as to tthe
type or style of OS as there are several and the appearance of each
corosponds to emerging concepts in computing.
Allison
>I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is
>something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting
>design for its time.
>
>The CPU and CRT are in one unit. In fact, at first I thought this was
>simply a dumb terminal because normally when you had a computer with
>integrated CPU/CRT it was a lot bulkier than this one is. The motherboard
>on this is tucked right under the tube. It has a Z-80 CPU and a 6502 (I'm
>assuming the 6502 is for the video display). The keyboard is an IBM XT
>keyboard (same key layout) but it has a 1/4" phono plug that connects to
>the front of the CRT/CPU (just like the Apple Lisa keyboard). I also got
>a dual half-height disk drive unit for it and two boxes of 5.25" floppies
>with programs such as WordStar, Supercalc, etc. I got a couple CP/M
>master disks with it as well.
I have something called an Amigo, made (although the name is hard to
read) by Surwave. Mind you, it could well be a Surwave made by Amigo. :)
It also has the z80 and the 6502 on the mother board, but it is not an
all-in-one unit. Indeed, it looks a bit like the Aplle ][. I have done
what research that I could, and so far have learnt that it was a Korean
Apple ][ clone, that could run cp/m or Apple software. They were made in
the very early eighties, and were imported into Australia via a person
who still resides in Adelaide. I have tracked down some information
about him, but have yet to find the person himself. They were quite
popular here, but few survived - mine didn't, as it won't show anything
on the screen. I am considering getting it repaired, but I don't know
enough to do it myself.
Anyway, I imagine that your computer is another model by the same people
- try an Apple boot disk and see what happens. :)
If you want I can continue to try and track down the importer. I know he
stopped importing computers and went into the computer embroidery
business, which does give me something to work with, anyway. I had given
up as I had covered almost everyone I could find who had anything to do
with old Apples, but there are still a couple of loose leads. I'm sure he
would know about any other systems made by the company.
Adam.
This weekend, I decided to replace the rotting foam in my RK05 drives.
BTW, self-adhesive weather striping seems to fit well. Home Depot carries
one in white (3/8" square) that works for the disk pack air intake. There is
also a black one, 7/16" x 3/4" that works for the foam between the blower
motor and the card cage.
Anyway, I digress. When I finished replacing the foam, I made sure that
I vacuumed up any foam particles. I powered-up my 11/34a, and now neither
drive gives me an "On Cylinder" light.
AFAIR, inserting a disk pack and pressing "load" would produce a
distinctive hum, indicating that the spindle motor is starting. Now, I get
no hum. Looking inside, I don't see the spindle running. Also, for the first
time, one drive popped its circuit breaker. It's almost like both spindles
are stuck. They're not, though; I checked (While looking into the spindle
motor and spinning the disk spindle I can see the motor fan move.)
I did not disconnect any wires during this process. Any clues?
BTW, what's the little red switch on the power supply board for?
Thanks for the help, again.
Rich Cini/WUGNET
<nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use)
ClubWin! Charter Member (6)
MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
============================================
<a M9192? The list I have shows it as being a "DUAL HEIGHT CPU BRD", whic
<is "real" informative! According to the list I've got the 23's CPU's hav
<different numbers.
M8186 PDP-11/23 (KDF11A)
M8189 PDP-11/23 (KDF11B)
<
<They both have 256KW of 18-bit memory. This brings up an interesting
<question, how many bytes are there in in a Word when you're talking
<PDP-11's? Since it's 18 my guess would be 2 with parity bits.
Correct the extra are parity and it's always 2 8bit bytes to a 16bit word.
<SCD-RQD11/EC -- this one had 6 connectors for ribbon cables
I believe this is a distribution board for the RQDX1/2/3 floppy/hard disk
controllers.
<M8059-KP -- I believe it's 64k, is it for PDP?
256kb(128kw) parity memory.
<M3104 DHV11 -- It's got two ribbon connectors, by guess is it's for addi
<other terminals. I seem to have a pair.
These are terminal line controllers with silos and modem controls. Handy!
<Distributed Logic Corp. DQ342 -- no idea, two ribbon connectors
Unknown to me.
<Plessey P/N 70590-100A -- looks to be a RAM board
There were a lot of third part ram suppliers.
Allison
<> > BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rai
<> > or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboar
<> > sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but th
<> > weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^(
The PRO350 is a member of the PDP-11 family. The processor is the F-11,
that's the same one as the 11/23 and they could carry up to 1meg of ram.
The bus physically is unique to the pro but it is similar to q-bus in
signals and timing.
As to options:
RX50 floppy
RD50/51/52 hard disks(rd51 10meg was common)
various memory options
APUs for 8088 or z80s
eithernet interface
Color graphics
Operating system was POS and was a modified version of RSX and is a
multitasking os. RT-11 was also available. Many programming languages
were available. Venix is available on the net for this box.
Speed, the PRO350 was slightly faster than the 11/23 though the disk
interfaces were slower. It did make a good workstation.
Versions, There was a PRO380 which used the J-11 (11/73 11/83) processor
which was faster and also the design carried more memory. Same box.
I have one and they are neat small machines. You need a monitor and
keyboard to make it complete.
Allison
Hello. From what I've heard, XT's practally line the streets in some
places. But, not here. :-( But, I've got most of an XT here. If anyone
has some spare parts, that they're willing to donate/sell, than that would
be great.
What I need:
a HDD, as after testing the one that came with mine on 2 machines, it
doesn't work. It sounds bad, too. Preferably, one that's a 10MB, like the
origional IBM. I don't have any SW, so it would be handy if you could just
take one out. But, if not, I can try other things.
A Controller, one that can handle Big Blue's origional 360K
A second one, that can handle the above hard drive. (May not be needed)
A video card. I need to figure out what's wrong with my XT monitor, as it
doesn't seem to be working. But, I could just use my CGA.
And, yes, I'm sure that I need all these. I've tried every part, and
none of them work. I tested my monitor on a friends CGA graphics card (but
set to mono), and the picture was CLEAR.
I'm willing to pay for these, as they'd make my first working classic.
And, I know that beggers can't be choosers.
<> >First programable calc
<>
<> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goe
<> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the in
<> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bi
No, this was not the first by a long means. I vaguely remember a desktop
HP job that was years earlier.
There were designs that were RTL and utililogic and even earlier designs
that were about the size of a desk drawer that were both totally
electronic and to some extent programable.
Allison
At 01:53 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Get an HP-IB cable or two if they have them but don't let them overcharge
>> you for them. A lot of people act like they're made of gold.
>
>That is because they are, at least to the test engineering world. These
>people spend large amounts for just about everything ($500 power supplies,
>$3000 signal generators, etc.), so a $20 cable is nothing to them. The
>dealers know they can get a large amount for HPIB cables, so they do.
>
>William Donzelli
>william(a)ans.net
$20 HA! Some of the dealers want $50+ plus for used ones around here.
OTOH I have been given bunches of them and there are tons of them
available. I just meant to warn him not to let them stick it to him for a
cable or let the price of the cable stand in the way of buying the HP IPC.
Joe
>
>
At 01:44 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >First programable calc
>>
>> Then there is the "first solid state electronic calc" which I think goes to
>> the Busicom from Japan that employed the first production run of the intel
>> 4000 chip set: the 4001 (2048 bit ROM), 4002 (320 bit RAM), 4003 (10 bit
>> shift register), and the 4004 (4 bit CPU). That chip set was shipped to
>> Busicom in March 1971 according to Michael S. Malone's "The
Microprocessor:
>> A Biography" ISBN 0-387-94342-0
>
>Wang's first (or quite near their first) product was an all electronic
>calculator, introduced in the late 1960s. They are big, but could be
>lugged around. The best part about them is the core memory! No
>microprocessors here (in fact, it may be discrete transistors - I better
>open the thing up a check).
>
>William Donzelli
>william(a)ans.net
>
HP's first calculator, the 9100a, was introduced in 1967 or 68. It had
no ICs, used core memories, and used logic gates made of diodes and
resistors. It did have transistors but they were mainly used as amplifiers
for the core memory. I guess it still qualifies as "solid state".) It was
fully proggramable and used RPN. I have a 9100B with a 1969 date code.
I believe the Japanese Busicom calculator is even older and dates from
about 1966.
Joe
>
>
OK, pardon my myriad of questions tonite, but I'm learning something
totally foriegn here. I've done some hunting, and it appears that I was
right, the pair of small PDP-11's aren't 23's their 73's. I wan't to see
if I can get them to boot, however, I'm wondering how I should connect the
terminal. Do I use a straight serial cable 9600 8-N-1, null modem cable,
or what.
I'm already getting the impression that I'm going to end up building a
cable for the VAXstation 2000. Based on what I've been able to find out on
that. Hopefully the snow tonite isn't to bad, I don't think I've got any
spare connectors laying around right now. Probably a good thing, I'd be
tempted to build the cable right now :^) Is this the correct penout for
the VS2000 console cable?
2<->3, 3<->2, 7<->7
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
I got back from the Portland sale, pretty cool. Seems like most of the
people there were Hams, with some possible camara buffs. Most people
looking at the computers were interested in stuff for modern systems.
There were at least four other people there into the classics though.
I went a bit crazy, and ended up with the following:
PDP-11/44:
Rack 1: 2 RL02's and what appears to be the connections for terminals
Rack 2: CPU, dual floppies (8" I think), those funny little tape
drives
I've heard mentioned, and a Battery Backup
I'm questioning the identity of these two, it's how they were labled, but
they don't have a DEC nameplate.
PDP-11/23: 8" disk and 20Mb HD
PDP-11/23: 5.25" disk and 20Mb HD
Kaypro II: I'm hoping the floppies are in good shape, I've really been
wanting to get one of these.
VAXstation 2000
S-100 bus cards: ~6 floppy controllers, ~1 I/O controller, a lot of RAM cards
Q-Bus cards: ESDI floppy controller (YES!!!), 2 8Mb RAM cards, a whole pile
that looked interesting and I honestly don't have any idea what they are.
I think at least a couple are for a MircoPDP-11, and I'm wondering if one
isn't a CPU for the MicroPDP-11. I'll probably have questions on what some
of these are later, thankfully a couple days ago I found a pretty good
Excel Spreadsheet on the net that will hopefully help me to identify them!
A shrinkwraped copy of CP/M for the Rainbow 100, one of the manuals and
another expansion unit for the Tek workstation I picked up a couple days
ago, and maybe one or two other minor items I can't think of now.
What can I say I'm pooped, I got my Dad to go, so I could use his Suburban,
but I didn't think about how little he can lift nowdays. If it wasn't for
Jim Willing, and the guy selling the stuff helping I don't think I'd have
gotten the Rack with the 11/40 CPU in the truck. Unfortunately we couldn't
figure out how to get the CPU out of the rack :^(
I've gotten everything except the 11/40 out of his truck, that's going to
have to wait. Unfortuntaly it's starting to snow, so it's probably going
to wait until next weekend.
No idea if anything works, I'm going to start playing tonite after I get
done taking a break.
As for the place having the sale, it was incredible, piles of old
computers, tons of S-100 bus cards and computers. O-Scopes, ham junk, old
camera equipment, etc., etc., etc. Of course to my thinking the prime
stuff was was the PDP-11/44 and the VAX 11/730, with those around it was
hard to see anything else. I'd have liked to get the VAX, but in all
honesty now that I've got the /44 I think I'll stick to MicroVaxes, they're
easier to move.
I passed up a couple of Bell & Howell Apples (the black ones), they were
trashed and didn't have the floppies, I'd have loved them for my Apple
collection, but they were to far gone. I really should have picked up a
VT220 or one of the other terminals that they had. They had a lot of
Televideo stuff, but I didn't recognize what it was.
BTW, what is a DEC Professional 350? I passed on both that and a Rainbow
or two (they had a huge stack of Rainbows, but no monitors or keyboards in
sight). I really want to go back, and would tomorrow I think, but the
weather is turning bad, and I'm supposed to be elsewhere :^(
Well, that's it for now, I want to start checking stuff out!
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
I was wondering if anyone knew how to install a Hayes 9600 modem into
an XT (Ogivar Tech.). There are a MASSIVE 21 megs in the hard drive,
and a 5.25 " drive. This is just a learning computer for a friend
who will buy up if this one can work. I'm on a non-graphical internet
account and the XT has a program already loaded on it to dial out,
but the modem isn't being recognized. All I've done is physically put
it into the slot ( it fits perfectly inside) and I haven't touched any
switches or the autoexec.bat at all. I have no idea it those things
are what I'd need to do anyway. Could someone help me out? Keep the
information in English, not tech-ese, I'm still learning too!
Thank you!
I picked up an Amigo computer today from a thrift store. Now, this is
something cool as I have never seen one before and it is an interesting
design for its time.
The CPU and CRT are in one unit. In fact, at first I thought this was
simply a dumb terminal because normally when you had a computer with
integrated CPU/CRT it was a lot bulkier than this one is. The motherboard
on this is tucked right under the tube. It has a Z-80 CPU and a 6502 (I'm
assuming the 6502 is for the video display). The keyboard is an IBM XT
keyboard (same key layout) but it has a 1/4" phono plug that connects to
the front of the CRT/CPU (just like the Apple Lisa keyboard). I also got
a dual half-height disk drive unit for it and two boxes of 5.25" floppies
with programs such as WordStar, Supercalc, etc. I got a couple CP/M
master disks with it as well.
It powers up and on the screen it says:
V.10 BOOT Insert system diskette in lower drive.
I can hear the drive spinning as if its trying to boot from the disk but
none of the system disks I have seem to work. Perhaps they are bad, or
the drive heads need cleaning.
What I really want to know is if anyone has ever seen or worked with one
of these, and if you've got any information on it.
Thanks!
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
I went to a hamfest today and picked up two systems that "AREN'T GOING BACK
HOME". One is a Rubicon II and the other is a Tandy 6000 HD. The Rubicon
uses 2 floppy drives and I think runs CPM. The Tandy is running Xenix (sp?)
and has a 8 inch floppy drive and 15Mb hard drive. Can anyone tell me
anything about these? How rare? When they were made? If they have any
value? etc.
Joe
> a PC type can't consider until he's bloated his system to at least
> 640K (or lately, 32Mb).
96MB is what I just put into mine. Corel 7 _flies_!
...but, it's hard to unlearn habits. I still find myself deleting <1K text
files to "save space". I don't program much anymore, but if I did, I
suspect I'd still be trying to squeeze a few bytes out here and there.
With memory and HDD's so cheap, tho', and the intense pressure in the
software market, it's simply not economically feasible to shave bytes.
Also, a lot of the bloat is not only in features ("PIM outputs next year's
schedule in HTML for easy posting to the web -- now with finite element
analysis of paperclips!"), but things such as clipart, which gets stuck on
the hard drive, for convenience...even MSWorks comes with clipart, for
Pete's sake. Everything comes with 20 fonts (reminds me of an English
restaurant: everything with chips) and a tutorial.
Pete,
Have to send this on list as your address bounces.
<Have you installed the "N" diskset - networking tools? If so then it
<should be in /usr/sbin.
I'd selected it for install but for some reson setup didn't install all
the files I'd selected. I ran pkgtool and put everthing from the "n"
diskset in and it's there now.
<With regard to the packet driver for your DE-100 card it may be worth
<visiting D-Link's web site.
The PDI8023 would be better if I could use it in the dos/win3.1 box. I'll
check the web site.
Allison
OK, the question of the moment is how do I connect a console to a
VAXstation 2000? Is it the plug with arrows pointing in opposite
directions or do I need a special cable?
I'm assuming for a terminal I can just use a laptop running a comm package
that does VT100 emulation.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
At 13:29 09/01/98 -0800, Kip Crosby wrote:
>Between Christmas and New Year's I was cleaning out my mother's house and
>found a Texas Instruments TI-71, complete with its docs and warranty card.
>This is a small, line-powered digital clock. Still works fine.
>
>What interests me here is that I recall hearing an unsupported contention,
>years ago, that this was the _first_ commodity digital clock that used
>seven-segment displays instead of flippers. Can anyone confirm or deny?
Yes, more or less the "nostalgic taste" is more or less the same with all
the '70 's innovations.
I recall my first electronic watch: it was one of those black TI with red
plastic display.
Because of it's strong energy consumption, I had to replace the cells every
year.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ?
? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ?
? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ?
? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ?
? e-mail=chemif(a)mbox.queen.it ?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I saw a Boox by Tom somebody (sorry, forgot last name) on
Vax-11 programming and assembly language at Barnes&Noble for $6.
Its a big hard cover book.
It was in the discount stack, if anyone is interested I'd get it
and ship it at cost. You might want to check your local B&N and
see if they can order it at that cost too.
Michael Fulbright
msf(a)redhat.com
Peter the folloing messages may be of interest to you.
< ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<<pjoules(a)lyndale-486.->
<
< ----- Transcript of session follows -----
<553 lyndale-486.-. config error: mail loops back to me (MX problem?)
<554 <pjoules(a)lyndale-486.->... Local configuration error
The rest of the crowd may be interested in this.
<Is your DOS box pure DOS or do you use Windows?
<Do you use any networking software with DOS?
Currently no networking with windows and it's windows 3.1. I call it dos
box as unlike Win95 win3.x is layered on dos.
I do however run trumpet(winsock), FreeAgent, winftp and Netscape3+ via
modem to the ISP.
<If you use windows 3.x then you will need to have a packet driver
<installed via autoexec.bat for your network card and then just install
<Trumpet Winsock and configure that.
Then I need a packet driver for either purdata PDI8023plus-16 or DECPCA
(DE100) card as that what I have.
However if I do that how do I run trumpet for the modem and the NI?
Allison
