<These I/O ports are all 8 bit, right?
<
<Now, an S100 frontpanel would have 16 toggle switches (at least - to
<load a memory address). So why can't you either
You could they didn't and they board was chockfull of crap and a little
more would have made a mess of it.
In 1974 the altair was an "ok" design at best. It was one set of
engineers vision and at that point their best shot. They did it that
way.
Allison
<Was the latter really considered a problem in those days? Or was it
<just that as a result it wasn't real useful to have the front panel do
<that? (Or was it just the additional cost of having the front panel
<do that?)
Fancy way is, cost benefit ratio. It cost a lot! Another was, it's easier
to not do that. Actually it was rare I needed the ability.
Allison
<But what does an instruction do? It just generates bus cycles, right?
<The bus doesn't care whether those cycles come from the CPU or something
<else (unless there's bus mastering and arbitration, which I doubt).
In theory your correct.
<The difference between generating a memory cycle and and I/O cycle on an
<Intel CPU is simply a matter of clocking a different value onto the
<"control bus" (which might be a multiplexed bus, I don't know the 8080
<that well).
Reducing that to practice and at a low cost on S100 bus with an 8080 is a
different matter. To understand that you need to know both as S100 was
not a bidirectional data bus(seperate data in and data out paths) and
all the bus control signals were RAW 8080 status/controls making it a
royal pain to do DMA on the bus. To make a point to do a memory write
on the bus you have to output SWO/, PWR/, MWRITE, SMEMR, SOUT, SINP,
PDBIN and all of them must be in the correct state (some are active
high!). S100 was a poorly designed bus in that respect. I may add that
Altair 8800(a) and Imsai were not bus masters, they were more CPU control.
The best way to descrive this is if the CPU was Not there the front panel
was an ornament.
Allison
At 06:34 PM 2/24/98 PST, you wrote:
>A friend of mine was recently in D.C. and took this
>photo of the Microcomputer exhibit in the Smithsonian
>Museum. I recognize the Altair and the Sol but what
>is the Apple prototype sitting on the table? Here is the
>link to the photo...
Looks like an Apple I to me, but then again I've never seen an actual model
in person.
Hi, I just got back from a hamfest. Found two brand new in the box full
height Tandon floppy drives for the IBM PC. Rich, do you want one?
I also bought two AT&T 3B1 computers without keyboards or monitors. Does
anyone know if the keyboard and monitor from a AT&T 6300 will work on them?
Or where I can find a monitor and keyboard? Also need any advice about
how to get these up and running. What are all the ports for? etc
Joe
While I don't have experience with the Horizon, I think it is similar
(software-wise) to the Advantage (though the Advantage is NOT S100). I
have some software, some for CP/M and some for the NS-DOS. Note that the
floppy disks are hard sectored, impossible to find nowadays and just as
hard to read/write on anything else... (AFAIK - if someone has a program
to do this please speak up!)
Joachim (I usually sign "Joe" but I think that would cause confusion...)
> Joe,
>
> I don't know if software is available but will ask. Does the NS
> horizon use a S-100 bus? I was told the unit I'm (hopefully) about to
>
> acquire has an internal 10MB hard drive. i'm going to go eyeball the
> unit within the next few days.
>
> Marty
>
>
> ______________________________ Reply Separator
> _________________________________
> Subject: Re: North Star Horizon
> Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
> Date: 2/24/98 1:00 PM
>
>
> Marty,
>
> I have some manuals for the NS Horizon; disk controller, DOS,
> BASIC,
> Pascal. I'm looking for the software.
>
> Joe
>
> At 12:36 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
> > Does anybody have any information on a North Star Horizon? I may be
>
> > acquiring one of these soon but don't know much about it except
> that
> > it has wooden side panels and used to support a half-dozen
> terminals.
> > Is it a S-100 bus?
> >
> > Thanks for any help-
> >
> > Marty Mintzell
> >
> >
>
>
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> <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: North Star Horizon
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Joe wrote about a Northstar Horizon:
> I think it uses the S-100 bus. According to their manual, North Star
>used the same disk controller in the Horizon that they sold for the S-100
>systems. I have a NS S-100 controller. They are the same electricaly and
>software wise but maybe physically different.
I did some software work on a Horizon many years ago. As I recall, it had
two full height 5.25" bays, a good sized power supply behind the bays (on
the right side) and a shorty S-100 card cage on the left, 8 card slots? But
the NS motherboard also had some logic on the motherboard, at the rear. I
believe there were one or two 8251 serial ports, a baud rate generator,
maybe a parallel port or interrupt controller (look for an Intel 8214 or a
28-pin AMD IC)?
Tony wrote:
>>
>>
>> <But surely this is a limitation of the front panel not the processor.
>> <I/O bus cycles can (easily) be generated from an appropriately designed
>> <front panel.
>>
>> Processor. The 8080 CPU does I/O To/From the accumulator which is
>
>I beg to differ.
>
>All you have to do is to put the CPU into a wait state, tri-state the
>bus buffers and directly drive the address, data and control lines from
>hardware on the frontpanel controller. You can access memory or I/O ports
>that way.
>
In other words, make the front panel do a DMA access, either to memory or an
I/O port? That way it doesn't affect the CPU state at all, except the CPU
has to be running in order to handle the DMA grant.
I finally got the **** thing to boot every time without falling over sideways!
This is a step!
The only problem is, it's still single-user - I still can't get a DZ-11 to work.
I don't think I ever will - I was told you have to kill a 12-pack to get one
to work, and I'm not old enough to buy beer. :)
Anyway, I found an interesting goody in the spare 44 - It's a hex-height
board I recognised from the VAX 750 manual I have. It has 2 50-pin
cables going off to a 16-port EIA distribution panel. It appears to be a DMA
peripheral, it has CA1 and CB1 going off into logic, so I made a DMA slot for
it after the UDA50 in the 2nd BA-11. So, I bring up RSTS - And here's the
result:
Option: HARDWR LIST
Name Address Vector Comments
TT0: 177560 060
RU0: 172150 310 Units: 0(RA81)
KL0: 176510 300 <<< What is that?
KW11L 177546 100
SR 177570 Volatile
DR 177570
Hertz = 60.
Other: FPU, 22-Bit Addressing, Data Space, Cache
-------------------- AFTER THE INSERTION OF THE MODULE -------------------
Option: HARDWR LIST
Name Address Vector Comments
TT0: 177560 060
RU0: 172510 310 Units: 0(RA81)
KL0: 176510 300
DM0: 170500 440 DH0
KW11L 177546 100
SR 177570 Volatile
DR 177570
Herts = 60.
Other: FPU, 22-Bit Addressing, Data Space, Cache
-----------------------------
But when I say START:
KB9:KB24 disabled - no DH0: controller
Does that mean it's broken, or is the Monitor need rebuilt?
Oh, and Tim: The tape drives appear to handle 1600 BPI, but the controllers
don't. I'm gonna dig out my Emulex stuff and see if any of them will handle
this tape.
And wasn't DM0: a disk controller? Am I supposed to reset the CSRs to this?
-------
-John Rollins typed:
>
>>OK, does anyone know what this card came from? Anyone know what uses and
86
>>pin bus?
This is from vague memory, but if the card is roughly the same size as an
S-100 card (5 x 10 inches) and has an 86 pin bus connector, I think it might
be an old Motorola bus. I don't remember what they called it, never used
Motorola development systems, but it was Motorola's answer to Intel's
Multibus.
Joe,
I don't know if software is available but will ask. Does the NS
horizon use a S-100 bus? I was told the unit I'm (hopefully) about to
acquire has an internal 10MB hard drive. i'm going to go eyeball the
unit within the next few days.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: North Star Horizon
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 2/24/98 1:00 PM
Marty,
I have some manuals for the NS Horizon; disk controller, DOS, BASIC,
Pascal. I'm looking for the software.
Joe
At 12:36 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Does anybody have any information on a North Star Horizon? I may be
> acquiring one of these soon but don't know much about it except that
> it has wooden side panels and used to support a half-dozen terminals.
> Is it a S-100 bus?
>
> Thanks for any help-
>
> Marty Mintzell
>
>
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<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: North Star Horizon
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Joe,
Thanks for the information. I'm located in northern Virginia just
outside Washington, D.C.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: North Star Horizon
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 2/24/98 5:07 PM
Marty,
I think it uses the S-100 bus. According to their manual, North Star
used the same disk controller in the Horizon that they sold for the S-100
systems. I have a NS S-100 controller. They are the same electricaly and
software wise but maybe physically different.
Sounds like a neat system, I've never heard of one having a hard drive.
Keep me posted.
BTW where are you? I'm in Orlando, Florida.
Joe
At 01:10 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Joe,
>
> I don't know if software is available but will ask. Does the NS
> horizon use a S-100 bus? I was told the unit I'm (hopefully) about to
> acquire has an internal 10MB hard drive. i'm going to go eyeball the
> unit within the next few days.
>
> Marty
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: Re: North Star Horizon
>Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
>Date: 2/24/98 1:00 PM
>
>
> Marty,
>
> I have some manuals for the NS Horizon; disk controller, DOS, BASIC,
> Pascal. I'm looking for the software.
>
> Joe
>
> At 12:36 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
> > Does anybody have any information on a North Star Horizon? I may be
> > acquiring one of these soon but don't know much about it except that
> > it has wooden side panels and used to support a half-dozen terminals.
> > Is it a S-100 bus?
> >
> > Thanks for any help-
> >
> > Marty Mintzell
> >
> >
>
>
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: North Star Horizon
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<But surely this is a limitation of the front panel not the processor.
<I/O bus cycles can (easily) be generated from an appropriately designed
<front panel.
Processor. The 8080 CPU does I/O To/From the accumulator which is
inaccessable from the front pannel being an internal register. An altair
did things by forcing a jump(C3h, xx, zz) the address switches were used
as zzxx forcing the PC to take the set value. Data at a given MEMORY
address was displayed as a result of the current address and stopping
before the next instructing fetch. Writing to MEMORY was simply gating
the data switches and forcing a write pulse (no cpu execution). Its
design was to allow insetion of code into memory and examination of
memory as those were direct. IO however while it would be nice to
interogate or write to devices could leave the cpu "out of sync" since
all IO is done from the accumulator. To do that you really need a soft
front panel and once you do that, displaying or altering the Acc, BC, DE,
HL and SP registers and associated flags are possible.
Did my fair share of 8080/8085/z80 designs in the '70s.
Allison
Again things have slowed down but a few goodies were found: A Rockwell
AIM65 4k computer inside what looks like a large calculator case that is
black and grey in color, has a onboard thermal printer using calculator
size paper, not tested yet, free; also got 6 R6500 mb's some are marked as
being bad all free; a Mac IIcx missing HD and memory simms for free; a
working Mac SE/30 without KB and mouse for $15; a Victor 386sx/20 laptop
broken screen with power adapter for free. Other manuals gotten at thrift
stores and some software that's been the week. Keep Computing - John
Tony Duell quoted me as having written:
>> On the subject of BBC video problems, it occurs to me that the BBC micro
>> does scrolling by moving the pointer to the start of the screen (under
>> some conditions?). If you can get it to do this, and see how the
>> display behaves, you may be able to determine easily if it's an
>> addressing problem.
>
> Is this going to tell you very much?
>
> The BBC _does_ use hardware scrolling (it changes the start-of-memory
> register in the 6845), but as the screen is a contiguous array of bytes,
> all that a scroll does is effectively increment that pointer by the
> number of bytes/line of characters (= 640 bytes in mode 0, etc) and then
> clear the new bytes displayed on the bottom line.
>
> So the new line 0 will be the old line 1, etc, but there are no other
> changes. A given byte on the screen is displayed in the same relative
> position to other given bytes on the screen. In mode 0, &3281 is still the
> second dot row of a character in the far left column. Of course if the
> text goes all over the place on a hardware scroll then you can be
> virtually certain that the 6845 is playing up.
What I meant was that addressing problem _external_ to 6845 generally
means that the fault will occur at the same _memory_ address. So that
type of scrolling means the fault will scroll up the screen, appearing
at the same place in the _text_ every time. Won't it?
If the screen line length were an integer power of two, a fault in the
bottom few address lines would appear at the same place on every line.
Fortunately the BBC micro is 80 characters per line, so you will see
things recurring on a slant. This slanted line of fault should move up
the screen as it scrolls.
Something to try, anyway. I am a firm believer in non-invasive tests!
Philip.
Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> wrote:
> First stop: Computer Recycling Center
[list elided]
Hmph. I stopped by weekend before last (14 Feb) and it looked like
they'd been cleaned out. Even the bookshelves were mostly empty.
Probably for the best though, given how far behind I am with other
stuff that needs doing.
> Corvus Systems Hard Drive unit - I believe this goes with the rest of the
> Corvus Concepts computer. It has several connectors on the back labeled
> "Processor", "Drive"...it also has one labeled "VCR" and a video IN and
> OUT jack. McFrank, this is so you can backup to a VCR right?
Yep, that's what it's for (although the hard drive could have been
used with about a half-dozen different kinds of systems, not just the
Concept). I'm not sure whether the jacks imply the presence of
whatever you actually need to do the backup or whether there is
additional hardware or software required (this is one of those
things that I know I need to figure out some day when I get all
those manuals in front of me at once).
-Frank McConnell
<> The Intellec MCS8i and the PDP11 (obviously, since all I/O is memory
<> mapped) do allow you to access I/O devices directly from the panel.
<
<...and the front panel on the Altair 8800b.
The 8008 does not have memory mapped IO, there are distinct IO
instructions. It's not to say MM/io is not done. The PDP-11 memory
and devices are the same things and there are no specialized IO
instructions.
The altair...(8800 and 8800a) from the front pannel there is no way to
interrogate an port mapped IO device or write to it. You must do it with
a little code.
Allison
On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:14:09 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I have a text file somewhere explaining how to make a functional copy of
>>this unit using more modern parts (LEDs and ULN2803 driver chips, I
>>think) if anybody wants it.
If you can put your hands on that text file, I'd be interested in it.
Thanks!
-------------------------------------------------
Rich Cini/WUGNET
<nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use)
- ClubWin Charter Member (6)
- MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
Tony's comment, below... about the only equipment needed to repair... was
helpful.
So, as I have an Altair, a BBC, a KIM, a Sorcerer and various other beasties
awaiting ressurection, and having little (well, OK... no) electronics
experience, starting at square 1...
a) What should I be looking for in a logic probe. Any recommended models
(say, <$100)
b) Ditto for multimeter.
c) Where can I find a brain? :)
Actually, the Altair will be my first task. I'm thinking of #1 taking out
all the boards. Good idea?
I have it firing up and basically behaving, but some LEDs don't light when
they should, but are definitely able to light when they want to.
A
>Hmm... I've yet to find a classic computer fault that could not be
>tracked down using 3 things - a logic probe, a multimeter (DMM/VOM) and
>a _brain_. On the grounds that my brain isn't that good, I sometimes have
>to use other test equipment, but when I finally do track down the
>problem, I generally realise that the symptoms were obvious from the
>start if only I'd realised what they meant.
allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
> [....] IO however while it would be nice to
> interogate or write to devices could leave the cpu "out of sync" since
> all IO is done from the accumulator.
You say that like there's something wrong with it.
Well, there could be, I suppose, if your hardware is such that reading
its registers changes them, and the operator doesn't realize this.
Was the latter really considered a problem in those days? Or was it
just that as a result it wasn't real useful to have the front panel do
that? (Or was it just the additional cost of having the front panel
do that?)
-Frank McConnell
<The only things I know about this board is that it's a SCSI controller, a
<it's BIG. It's about 10"x12", has an 86-pin edge connectr on the bottom,
<two 50-pin edge connectors on the top, and uses eight 2651 SCSI chips. It
<labeled "DATASTREAM ASSY 100716 REV A". Does anyone have any idea what
<this is for?
<TIA
Sounds more like an 8 port serial board! The 2651 is a USART type device.
The 50 pin connectors might be board to pannel connector cabling.
Allison
Anthony Clifton - Wirehead said:
>I see this problem alot at hamfests. You can't blame them. They want
>to bring what will sell and they're most likely to not have to carry
>back home. They perceive no value to ancient computers so they assume
>nobody else will either.
I have 2' x 3' white board taped to the little rolling cart I take with me.
On the board, I write down all the stuff I'm looking for that day.
=========================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=========================================
Does anybody have any information on a North Star Horizon? I may be
acquiring one of these soon but don't know much about it except that
it has wooden side panels and used to support a half-dozen terminals.
Is it a S-100 bus?
Thanks for any help-
Marty Mintzell
< Does anybody have any information on a North Star Horizon? I may be
< acquiring one of these soon but don't know much about it except that
< it has wooden side panels and used to support a half-dozen terminals.
< Is it a S-100 bus?
Yes, I have one I built (and still use!) 20 years ago! Exteremely sold
piece of s100 hardware.
The top is wood too! Z80/S-100. Support for more than one user means
it was running a timeshare version of NS* Basic.
Allison
Hello,
I just joined the list. While I don't have any specific questions
_at_this_point_ :-) I have quite considerable experience with
electronics and am willing to help out where I can (time permitting)...
Of course I am always interested in software for my collection.
A quick list:
ZX81 with "real" keyboard, and of course 16k pack
TRS-80 model 1
Vic 20
C64
SuperPET with 4040 drive
Rainbow with 10Meg drive
Northstar Advantage
Bits'n'pieces of 2 PDP-11's (-23 and -73(?))- enough to have one
working in debugger mode
- no drives or anything
MicroVax II with periphials, had it running Ultrix and NetBSD
HP 75D and a few old HP calculators
128k Mac and Mac Plus
The next two are my everyday use computers. Dubious if they count as
"classics"...
Amiga 3000 (AmigaOS 2.04, and NetBSD until the HD with the root
partition went south...)
SparcStation 1+ running NetBSD
(NOTE: those are my home computers. Needless to say here at work I use
the usual unspeakable... though occasionally I do reboot my computer
into FreeBSD - but then I can't receive mail from the $%#& exchange
server)
I am hoping to aquire a (brand unknown) S100 Z80 box in the next few
days...
Joachim.
jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca wrote:
>Early high end Dell series (I think!) had this dot matix that glows
>yellow and rare motherboards that had POST display built in.
Back in those days, they were known as PCs Ltd. I had a 286 like that.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
Here's a couple more for the TRS knowledgeable.
>from a TRS novice.
1. Among the various TRS stuff I picked up recently was a
TRS-80 monitor. It has a similiar connector coming out
the front as the Model II. Was this the for the std. M.1
and M.3 ?
2. Included with a TRS CoCo 1 I picked up last summer was
an adapter plugged into the cass.port. a label "TotalCommunications"
on one side and "Telelearning" on the other. Into this was plugged
another M/M adapter labelled " RS232 Gender Changer" Was this for
hooking up a fdd and/or modem ?
ciao larry
lwalkerN0spaM(a)interlog.com
> Could you tell me just a bit about the DL8? What does it look like, does
it
> work, any software... manuals?
I have no Doco or software for the DL8a, from memory there may be something
in
ROM, but I know that some of the ROM sockets are empty. It is contained in
a
single 19" rack mount case, mainly made from aluminium. On the back panel
there
is the fan, the power connector and a single female 25 pin D connector (I
think
it's a current loop port). The front panel is white with black lettering.
All
switches are toggle swicthes, some have red hoods, some have blue. I think
there are seperate banks of switches for address and data as well as the
usual
halt, run, examine, etc. All the LEDs are red. I have powered it up and
watched it count in binary, but as I don't know 8080 and have never
programmed a
front panel system I haven't done anything else
Does this ring a bell for anyone?
A
<Pardon my ignorance, but what's an R6500? That wouldn't be an IBM
<RISC machine, would it?
No, non-ibm as it comes. It was the series of chips starting with the
6502 that wree used in the apple series, AIM, KIM, PET and Commodore
machines. The number of hands the licensed 65xx chip design passed
through is somewhat record as well!
Allison
<a) What should I be looking for in a logic probe. Any recommended model
<(say, <$100)
Unless the logic is fast (altairs arent!) any will do.
<b) Ditto for multimeter.
My favorites are a fluke m12 (digital) and a triplite-160(analog).
<c) Where can I find a brain? :)
think about it for a while ;)
<I have it firing up and basically behaving, but some LEDs don't light whe
<they should, but are definitely able to light when they want to.
Nominal altair misbehavour. Several problems very likely some age and
some design related. Switches are not making(corrosion internally),
operating them may clean them up or replacement may be needed. Check with
low current/voltage continuity tester(fluke m12 is good here). The pannel
uses oneshot timers by the carload (74ls123 and friends) and they can be
flakey. The mother board connections can be nasty from using solderplated
edge connector board with gold edge (electromigration). The board edges
can be cleaned with eraser but most systems with that disease end up with
shake well before using (pull boards/reinsert to wipe contacts).
I highly suggest this for any kit constructed altair pannel:
1. get drawings/schematics
2. clean well
a. remove and disassemble to just the board with no hardware.
b. Wash (yes really!) in dishwasher (best done when wife is not around)
using some of the normal dish washer soap.
NOTE: this will remove grime and any flux residues that may over time
have become conductive or corrosive! We have no way of assuring
a kit was constructed with quality solder/fluxes.
c. dry well using WARM oven at 120-140F.
(alternate is to soak in pan of 90% or greater isopropanal and air
dry. NOTE: ISOPROPANAL IS FLAMMABLE)
3. Inspect and resolder any questionalble joints, use care.
4. Reassemble partially, to allow testing.
NOTE: ONE MOD IF NOT DONE IS STRONGLY SUGGESTED... The 8800 front panel
design has 120vAC power on it and that was/is very bad practice.
As implemented it is a safety hazard and also a risk to the
hardware. It is best to keep good distances between mains power
and logic! Rewire so that the front pannel power switch is not
connected to anything and mount a replacement in a protected spot
on the rear pannel.
I feel strongly about that, even as a museam peice it should be done. The
existing switch can be left in place for appearances.
Allison
<A
<
<>Hmm... I've yet to find a classic computer fault that could not be
<>tracked down using 3 things - a logic probe, a multimeter (DMM/VOM) and
<>a _brain_. On the grounds that my brain isn't that good, I sometimes hav
<>to use other test equipment, but when I finally do track down the
<>problem, I generally realise that the symptoms were obvious from the
<>start if only I'd realised what they meant.
<
<
<I may be in the running to buy an 8800b turnkey model which (sigh) doesn'
<have the nice front panel that you describe for the 8800b. Can you tell
<me how the turnkey works? Does it have a ROM'd bootstrap loader? Will
<be able to program it if I don't have drives?
The fronpanel less version of the MITS was the 8800b (turnkey) and it was
generally configured to boot their disks. There may have been boot options
for cassette or papertape boot as well.
Allison
A few weeks ago, I turned down an offer to get an IMSAI and Altair
system, reasonably intact, both for $500. What do I know. :-)
Looks like a market ripe for wheeling and dealing.
These online auctions are an interesting phenomenon. At first I thought
they'd be a great place to pick up contemporary and antique computer
stuff at good prices, perhaps with a few "sleeper" bargains. But the
info flow is too good; it's my impression that prices are consistently
driven *higher* than I'd regard as "street" price. Good news for
people running auction services that take a percentage.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
Did anyone besides me notice that, judging by their ad in the latest
issue of Computer Gaming World magazine, the software division of
Metro Goldwyn Mayer (MGM INTERACTIVE INC.), producer of the original
"Wargames" motion picture, doesn't know the difference between an
IMSAI 8080 and a TRS-80? Their ad goes something like "In 1983, a
teenage computer hacker almost destroyed the world with one of these:
[picture of TRS-80 Model 1, with caption reading 'TRS-80, 4K RAM, no
hard drive']". It goes on to talk about how much damage he could do
with today's computers (go figure), and introduces their new
"Wargames" computer game. Maybe the marketing department should jog
down to the film vault and watch the movie, because _it_ used an IMSAI
8080 with a piece of paper stuck over the name for the young
"hacker's" computer. Sheesh.
-Bill Richman
bill_r(a)inetnebr.com
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
(Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!)
In a message dated 2/23/98 3:04:18 PM Central Standard Time, adept(a)Mcs.Net
writes:
> > I assume you mean machines that are worth more than their original
purchase
> > price. That would be a pretty short list... notably:
> >
> > - RCA COSMAC VIP (ditto)
> >
Hmm, whats one of these worth? I have 4 of them, but I have never seen
any for sale.
Kelly
Adam Jenkins <adam(a)merlin.net.au> writes:
> Anyone know what a HP 935 is? I assume it to be a Hewlett Packard laptop
> of some sort, with an LCD display, but I don't know if it is MS-DOS,
> CPM/M, a full laptop or one of the Tandy Model 100 computers, or what. :(
I dunno, that makes me think HP 3000 series 935, which is a mini.
Either that or they left out the "8" in 9835 and it is a desktop
computer, possibly with a one-line LED display (9835B) or with a CRT
display (9835A).
Well, those are my guesses. I'm interested in hearing how far off
I am.
-Frank McConnell
The only things I know about this board is that it's a SCSI controller, and
it's BIG. It's about 10"x12", has an 86-pin edge connectr on the bottom,
two 50-pin edge connectors on the top, and uses eight 2651 SCSI chips. It's
labeled "DATASTREAM ASSY 100716 REV A". Does anyone have any idea what
this is for?
TIA
-JR http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek
This weekend's recent finds netted me two books:
The first is called Computers and Man, by Richard C. Dorf, published by
Boyd and Fraser Publishing Co. in 1974.
It looks like it could have been a college text at one time. The
real notable part is it is loaded with alot of pictures of earlier
machines and computers from the late 60s and early 70s (such as a
picture of an IBM 2321 strip file, which I think was mentioned here a
few months back.). also a good description of core memory (which I have
been searching for to go with my core memory board I won at VCF.)
The other, which may be a duplicate (for me) was PET/CBM BASIC
Programming and Applications by Gene Streitmatter and Larry Joel
Goldstein published by Brady Books which had an unlabeled 5 1/4" disk
shoved in it, the disk contained a few examples from the book written by
the last owner (for the PET)... You never know what you may find
though. Not as bad a Programming books of the time go, even some nice
type-in games in the back.
Larry Anderson
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/
Call our Commodore 64 BBS (Silicon Realms 300-2400 baud) at: (209)
754-1363
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Well, I thought I'd trumpet my trophies from today's hunting since I
haven't done a trip like this one in a while and it was fun.
Nothing really amazingly special today, but there were some nice finds.
First stop: Computer Recycling Center
Commodore Colt (PC-10C) - the Commodore IBM PC compatible, kinda neat.
Has a WD hard drive inside (don't know what size)
Radio Shack CoCo1 with the old-style (original) keyboard. I believe this
is a 4K model. Came with the RS Modem I and a manual set plus some carts
and a bunch of tapes with instructions
Radio Shack Line Printer VII
Zenith Data Systems Portable - this is the OEM'd Morrow Pivot Portable
Everex external tape backup - this is cool...it uses cassette tapes for
(apparently) 40MB backup. Coincidentally I found another one of these
at stop #4 with a cassette. The cassette looks like your standard tape
cassette but it has a notch on the tope of the casing in the middle. Can
this drive use standard cassettes? It apparently plugs into the external
floppy connector of an IBM PC
Mac SE with 4MB RAM and 20MB HD
Bunch of books, cables, Apple II software, other miscellany
Total: $50
Second Stop: Surplus Store
Atari 600XL with Atari 1027 printer
(2) Lobo 5.25" drives for the Apple II (of course Marvin knows
these were manufactured in Santa Barbara, CA!)
Apple //e numeric keypad, joystick
(2) Apple //c power supplies
Miscellany
Total: $30 (haggled down from $45)
Third Stop: Thrift Store #1
Mattel Aquarius with Mini-expander and two game controllers in excellent
condition (my first computer!)
Atari 800XL
Total: ~$15
Fourth Stop: Thrift Store #2
Burroughs C-7400 Electronic Adding Machine - I don't know if this should
be called an adding machine or a computer. It seems to have some sort of
computing ability. The keypad has this overlay with commands such as
"GOTO", "IF" and "GOSUB" printed on it. I haven't fired it up yet but it
has a one line LED (LCD?) display. Looks very neat. I don't normally
collect adding machines except when one really jumps out at me. Any
info?
Data General External 5.25" Floppy Drive - I believe this drive was
specific to the DG1 laptop. The funny thing is I just recently saw a
photo of it on a web page and was thinking "Hey, I want one of those"
A whole OS/2 library of books (like 10 volumes on OS/2 including developer
manuals for Presentation Manager, etc).
Total: ~$15.00
Fifth Stop: Surplus Store
Northstar Advantage in excellent condition
Panasonic Portable Data Terminal - similar to the TI Silent 700 but a
little more polished
Televideo PC-605 - this is a more IBM compatible model of the Televideo
PC. This one apparently has a color CGA monitor instead of the more
standard monochrome display. It also is supposed to have a PC compatible
BIOS and can thus run some PC apps. It also has a HD (probably 20MB)
Corvus Systems Hard Drive unit - I believe this goes with the rest of the
Corvus Concepts computer. It has several connectors on the back labeled
"Processor", "Drive"...it also has one labeled "VCR" and a video IN and
OUT jack. McFrank, this is so you can backup to a VCR right?
Misc. MicroPro software packages (CalcStar)
Misc. books: Rexx, 8080/8085 Assembly Programming
Total: $80
Grand Total: ~$190
Total spots visited: 5
Total Elapsed Time: 7hrs
Deal Scale: 4 (1=Bad Deal...10=Great Deal!) [I've had better days]
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
<>> panel. Does anyone remember other front panel S-100 cards besides MIT
<>> IMSAI, Ithaca, and Wameco? Wasn't there a Byte-8 sold by Olson
<Electronics
<>> for a while that also had a front panel?
<
<>Yes, the Byte-8 had a front panel with, I believe, a hex keypad and a tw
<>digit 7-segment LED display.
Godbout.
Equinox_100.
<Was that just a display driven from a boot ROM or was it a real front pan
<with displays directly driven from the bus, examine/deposit, single step
<etc.? Usually a hex keypad meant a simulated front panel (CPU actually
<running a debug program in the boot ROM). A true front panel needed 16 L
<or 4 hex digits for address, 8 LEDs or 2 hex digits for data, and at leas
<status LEDs for bus signals (SINP, SOUT, MEMR, INTA, etc.).
Most were "simulated FP" though most offered better than real front pannel
abilities. A few were hybrid, IE: the leds really did indicate what was
on the bus and the cpu only ran the rom code needed to perform the needed
actions and stopped.
<All the panels
<I have seen also had an extra 8 LED latched output port and sense switch
<input port.
Altair compatability hack. The sense switches were also port 0FFh so the
software could read them.
Allison
Today I picked up a HP 7958B unit which contains a "Bauart Gepruft model
97533-60051" Hard Drive. It is my understanding that this Hard Drive is an
MFM Hard Drive, and I got this thing expecting to be able to find enough
info on the net that I could hopefully fake my way through formating it for
one of my MicroVAX's. No such luck, I've been able to dig up a big fat
nothing on the net.
Does anyone have any info on these things? I gather they were used with
HP9000/300 systems.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html |
Tony, you mentioned that a lot of info was mentioned in the IBM
techref, on the AT in your case. What is the kind of size of this
set, for the AT let's say, and does anyone have extra copies? What
about XT? (I have the quickref to it already)
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<Snip>
> The oldest part is toshiba 1.44 I have no idea
> how old but I think it was about 5 years old. Hard to find a good
> floppy drive that will last that long now. But tell me if there is
> one out there that good and costs $40 and I will take it!
What's happening to prices? Just returned from a show...Mitsumi FDD's, $16,
sound cards $12, speakers $10...cases $18!!!
> Only problem with disposeable PC if the makers gives us the >machines
> too non-standard and hard to expand n' upgrade
...a la Packard Bell...but now it seems EVERYONE is making purpose-designed
motherboards and cases. The best thing about keeping older PC's going (just
to keep this on track) is interchangability of parts: P/S, for example.
What's gonna happen to us electronically challenged types when the HP
Pavilion P/S smokes -- am I going to go, hat in hand, to HP for another --
at their prices?
<They'd be extremely handy as a diagnostic tool, especially when there's
To a point but it also required somethings to work and added things that
could break the system.
<problem with a video card or memory, and instead of having to count a
<bunch of stupid beeps to determine what the error code is, you can just
<read it off the front panel.
That's what POST-cards do.
<Those front panels had value that was overlooked when the modern machine
<were ushered in.
The altair had some 30 switches and as many leds all costing a bit never
mind a board full of logic. It's was an expensive solution to not using
Eproms even small ones. Systems like the POLY-88, SOL, SWTP 6800 got
along just fine without them. Most minicomputers were dispensing with
them by 1970s in favor of rom boots.
Allison
I apologize for any weird layout, but this IS Lynx...(as always for me)
>> Missed my point; I prefer to buy quality one if I can find one and
>> that floppy example is what I'm driving at.
If I had money...
>> Mitsumi and Epson floppy drives are junk. I had too many of those
>> fail before year is up and use was not that heavy. Panasonic and few
>> Teac is just o. k. but not on my esteemed list. Also those cheapo
I had a drive problem once. It was intermittent, and I never could
understand what was wrong. Eventually, I swapped the cable and the
drive, and it works now. The only FDD I've bought was a 3.5" TEAC
for $70 at the world's worst store- CompUSA. It actually has a metal
frame!
>The one advantage of Teac drives is that you can get the service/repair
>manual. I have it for several versions of the FD55 (5.25" drive) and
the
>FD235 (3.5" drive). It means you can be _sure_ your drive is correctly
>aligned.
I wouldn't bother if I had to.
>What floppy drives would you recomend?
Punched card, IBM ,circa 1928.
>> more noisy. PSU have cheap parts inside and fan will fail inside. I
>> do have bunch of PSU's with failed fans and all of them are sleeve
>> bearing type, very doubtful of finding one with ball bearing fans
>
Once again, I wouldn't bother with such minor details when I run
Windows 95. My Fan howls when I boot, then stops after a few minutes.
I read an article once on how to replace a PSU fan with a silent
external one.
>The worst PC-clone part I own is a keyboard. One day when using it, the
>manual for my 'scope slipped off the top of a PDP8e that's alongside my
PC
>and landed on the keyboard. The result was that many keys on the
keyboard
>failed to work. I spent the next _3 hours_ removing bits of broken SRBP
>circuit board and soldering wires all over the place. Amazingly there
was
>a schematic printed on the box that the keyboard came in (which I'd cut
>out and filed), but (I guess) not too suprisingly it was incorrect!.
I keep bumping into kb's that have plastic film instead of PCBs.
The problem is that sometimes, the film will bend down, and not detect
the key, so I have to bash it. (Which I do enough anyway, given my OS)
>
>And don't get me started on monitors. Is it too much to ask for a
monitor
Well, now that we have LCDs, it should get better, though LCD can be
crap too. Don't have to worry about focus, transformers, etc. But I'm
sure that they'll figure out something to screw up.
>worse than the 17 year old Barco I happen to have...
Out of ten new Performas, about half have darker monitors. We don't
know why. It seems that the monitor is the second least reliable part
of the computer, after the rest of it :)
In old machines, everything was hackable anyway, so that any bugs
in hardware or software could be easily fixed by the likes of us.
In modern machines, its too complicated to fix anyway, and one would
never have the time to fix all of the bugs, and for me, hardware is a
minor problem (since it never breaks for me anyway, even when I try)
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<The person I've been getting a bunch of DEC stuff off of has a whole pil
<of TU-58 tapes that he would like to get transfered over to something he
<can read. I'm wondering if there is anyway I can attach the TU58 drive
<I've got for my PDP-11/44 to my MicroVAX II and copy these tapes for him
VMS does support Tu58 on vax on a serial port(it is a serial device).
The real question is whats the target media? RX50, RX33, RX02? If one of
those three the 11/44 can do RX02 and if you have a q-buss PDP-11 with a
DLV11j or any other serial port at 176500 you can hang the TU58 off that
and use RT-11 to do the tansfer.
Allison
>They'd be extremely handy as a diagnostic tool, especially when there's
a
>problem with a video card or memory, and instead of having to count a
>bunch of stupid beeps to determine what the error code is, you can just
>read it off the front panel.
>
>Those front panels had value that was overlooked when the modern
machines
>were ushered in.
I wouldn't say that! Some of the PS/2s, A popular WYSE 286 machine and
so one have had LCD diagnostic panels
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