On 1998-03-18 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk
:At 12:48 PM 3/17/98 -0600, you wrote:
:>be asked again - What are the top ten hotspots for finding old
:>equipment?
:In no particular order:
:Friends and Family (and the companies they work for)
:Thrift shops
:Garage Sales
:Dumpsters
:Surplus dealers
:Internet (this list, especially)
:hamfests/swapmeets/fleamarkets
:classified ads
:typewriter/office equipment repair businesses
perhaps the original requestor was thinking more in terms of
geographical areas...? sure, thrift stores, but which are your personal
favourites? etc.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
Don't say I didn't warn you Sam. I do not see in the FAQ that
discussions relating to the operation of the mailing list are off-topic...
especially when such discussions are started by you suggesting that the
list should die and be replaced by a list under your control.
I do see that *BILL WHITSON* is the operator of the mailing list and not you.
I am glad to see, at least in THIS particular message, you've
discontinued using foul language. Please not, however, in general you
post more foul language than I do supposedly off-topic messages.
Perhaps you will continue to reduce your use of foul language and add to
that the elimination of your harassment of me, insults directed at the
mailing list and the discontinuation of your self-appointed police
activities.
Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:23:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com>
To: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)www.retrocomputing.com>
Subject: Re: Sam's Instructions in Private Email
Once again, you are egregiously off-topic. Once again, allow me to quote
the FAQ so that perhaps you will begin to understand that the message you
posted is not acceptable discussion material.
1.1 What is ClassicCmp?
It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center
on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place
for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions
dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are
often better handled in private e-mail.
1.4 Who runs this thing?
That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu.
2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts?
Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of
people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now
that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice.
> I gave you fair warning that I would post your private emails and, if
> they do not discontinue IMMEDIATELY, I will do so in every case so that
> others can see that you are simply a bully and nothing more.
Well, I'd say we needn't be ashamed of our personalities, this IS a
social, not business, list. Does anyone know how many people are on this
list?
> Let's keep on topic and keep personalities off the list and private.
> Abide by section 2.8 and all of us will benefit.
>
> Marty Mintzell
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Before everyone runs off...
I just picked up two Fortune Systems' computers. A Fortune 32:16 SX
and a Fortune 32:16 XP. These were 68K based Unix systems but
I only have the base units. The XP system should have a monitor and
keyboard that plug into it but those are missing. As usual with many
old systems, these also came without doc and software. I helped the
previous owner as much as I could with these (which was not very
much) and he was able to get one up and logged in but that was about
it. Does anyone out there have any info on these; specs, doc,
software or a monitor and keyboard for the XP?
Also, I've set up a server and registered my own domain;
trailingedge.com. As this is my own hardware, connection and
domain, I intend to run web and ftp services here with as many links
to other classic computing sites, info and whatever files I can
receive permission to place here. I hope to cover as many systems
as I can add space for. So far I've only begun to move my old web
pages from my ISP over to the new server but plan to update the
site as I go along. I'd be happy to hear what people would like to
find there or services people would like to see.
You can email me at my old address dlw(a)neosoft.com or my new one
dlw(a)trailingedge.com. The new web site is
http://www.trailingedge.com of course. Sorry but the site isn't
currently very "text friendly", (though I did view it with the
current version of lynx from a Unix shell without too much trouble)
but that will be changing shortly too.
Thanks for your time.
-----
David Williams - Computer Packrat
dlw(a)trailingedge.com || dlw(a)neosoft.com
http://www.trailingedge.com || http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw
Go to Aple's web site, apple.com, and search in the tech support TIL
(technical information library). You'll find everything you need and
more...
Marty Mintzell
email:marty@itgonline.com
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: RGB monitor
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 3/18/98 5:02 PM
Sorry, I don't have the answer.
I have a 12" RGB monitor that works with a IIGS but when I plug it into
my Mac IIsi, I get nothing.
Please let me know if you find out where you can get technical info on
Apple monitors.
Thanks,
jstorm
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From: "Storm, John" <jstorm(a)RFPP.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: RGB monitor
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>
>This is a Practical Peripherals 2400SA, right? Little white plastic
>modem with a sloped front with modem-blinkenlights?
Yep
>I think this is the kind of modem that taught me that when they label
>one jack "line" and the other jack "phone" they may mean it. When I
>got it wrong the modem behaved as above: it would go off-hook and dial
>but not connect.
>
>Except that they didn't label the jacks on the modem, you had to look
>in the manual if you wanted to know which was which. But there's only
>two ways to do it, so put the cable that goes to the wall jack in the
>*other* modem jack and see if that makes it work.
If it isn't plugged in correctly, I think it says "NO DIALTONE", but I
will check
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
A good mailing list / BBS / forum / whatever has a benevolent dictator.
A moderator. Someone who rules with a light hand, and who has the time
and good nature to police unruly threads. A simple solution is to reject
the person's message, but this requires human intervention.
It's usually pretty easy to shift these mail lists from automatic
to moderated, but then there's a posting delay as the moderator
approves messages... and I think it's too much to ask for someone
to volunteer 10+ hours a week to trim and approve postings.
I've always thought a much more sensible approach is the private
news server. It allows pruning of unruly threads, either by the
reader (ignoring off-topic subjects) or by a B.D. who trims
away junk messages. It allows auto-archiving. It doesn't clog
mail routes and mail boxes. You can read it with any Usenet news reader,
just point to someone else's server. It would be easy to split
into .hardware, .software, .culture sub-groups.
Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com> wrote:
>2. Who's fault is it that you've apparently never learned to use a
>delete key?
Uhm, so why did you decide it was useful to include a quoted
copy of Sam's post? Excess bytes vex me more than swear words, but
almost as much as conspiracy theories.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
a)This is itself off-topic
b)One needs to have some kind of knowledge and ability just to join
the list
>Well Sam - you know me 8-) I will reserve judgement for the moment.
>Most of what you said - I agree with - How you said it - well...
PS I hope the new list will be accessible via a classic computer
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
From: Charles E. Fox <foxvideo(a)wincom.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: 16 March 1998 22:51
Subject: Microsoft&Windows
> At the risk of getting incinerated, I would like to put in my two bits on
>the great MS debate.
> You fellows tend to resemble a lot of Grand Prix drivers running down
>Fords and Chevvies. What it comes right down to is that there are a whole
>bunch of people who are doing useful things with computers who would not be
>if they had to depend on the equipment and software that was available
>before PC's, Mac's, MS-Dos and Windows.
> I saw the same thing with the introduction of self threading 16mm
>projectors about twenty five years ago. The National Film Board of Canada
>banned them because they chewed up film, but they made it possible for
>thousands of teachers to use film in their classes.
> Someday possibly we can run our modern computers with an operating system
>that comes on one single sided floppy, but until then lets appreciate what
>we have.
Hey, we've already had that - it was called DOS (albeit versions prior to
about 5.0) ;-p
-------------------------------------------------
- ICQ: 9761376 page 9761376(a)pager.mirabilis.com -
- http://wwp.mirabilis.com/9761376 -
-------------------------------------------------
It is much easier to suggest solutions when you know nothing about the
problem
http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/ssem/ssemhome.htm
We're coming up to the 50th anniversary of the first program run on the
world's very first stored program computer, the Manchester Mark I. I've
visited this page a bit, and its quite fascinating. They are running a
competitiion for the best program written on this machine by the end of the
month - emulators available. With just 6 instruction types, and just 32
words of memory (each instruction takes 16 bits of the 32 bits), no add, no
bit shift, and rudimentary branching, you will be sorely pressed for space.
But that's just what classic computing is all about. The winner gets to run
their program on the reconstructed MkI that will be debuting in a few
months. I toyed around with a packer that would let the unused bits of
memory hold additional instructions, but found it damn difficult to do in 32
bytes and still end up with more than I started with!!!! The biggest killer
for me was no add, no and or xor, and no bit shift!
I recommend a visit.
Cheers
A
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk [SMTP:lisard@zetnet.co.uk]
> Sent: March 18, 1998 15:19 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Robots again
>
<snippage all over the place>
> however, we'd urge you to take a look at some other object oriented
> languages. smalltalk, common lisp, self, oberon, etc. *much* nicer.
> and
> then grab a forth and roll your own :>
>
I have done some lisp, (in (mostly Emacs)), so I'm a bit
confused about you grouping Common Lisp with object oriented
languages... could you elaborate? I am somewhat amused by your mention
of forth. I maintain that HP managed to create a good implementation of
an object oriented Forth - RPL. (Maybe they should have called it FORTH
1 +) (Objoke: there is now an object oriented COBOL. It's called ADD 1
TO COBOL GIVING COBOL (yes, before you flame me there are better ways to
increment a variable but I've luckily never had the displeasure of
having to use COBOL. (ObCC: but I _do_ have a COBOL interpreter for my
C= SuperPET - but I only fired it up once to see if the disk was OK. I
also have APL which is _way_ cool.)))
> :I'be not tried VB, and almost zero Java, but I had to use Ada for
> :three years.
>
> oh, someone else. we had to do that, thanks to bradford university's
> oh
> so wonderful degree course. and to think that the oxonians were
> moaning
> about modula-2...
>
I remember the hilarious (mis)feature of Moduala-2's
"dual-tasking"... This was the language we had to use for "Intro to
Operating Systems"... <shudder>
> ada is a disgusting language, not because it is verbose or hard to
> program, but because it introduces another language - and a vast one
> at
> that - without giving anything *new*; it doesn't give value for money.
> size without content.
>
The going joke is that somwhere inside Ada is a wonderful,
small, efficient language screaming to get out... anyone remember who
wrote this?
--------------------------------------------
Joachim Thiemann
DSP Coder, Castleton Network Systems
I doubt therefore I might be.
Thanks for this tidbit, Allison.
I started searching but I turned up nothing at digital's website
show nothing about 4000VLC thin pizza box. The Oscillator chip says
100mhz. Only have one internal Qbus slot that is taken by that
"dumb" video VRAM RAMDAC / sound / keyboard i/o daughterboard and one
internal SCSI port driven by NCR 53C94 chipset.
The needs:
BIG help is to get info and what is options can be used with this
boards? I would love to use it but problem is locating one monitor,
s/w, keyboard and bit of help to work with that thing. :)
> <Finally now i have that name to 3 motherboards I have of that kind!
> <Thank you! :) How good are these boards for and how powerful
> <compared to other vaxstation?
>
> 8vups or better depending on model. No slug.
>
> Vt320 was available in amber, green, P-white.
Whoops looks like mangled formatted and I missed it! I liked them
but I have VT420 already. Nicer one 14" at 70HZ. Whew!
>
> Good price but I think shipping may be understated.
Maybe... possible.
Jason D.
>
> Allison
>
>
>
email: jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca
Pero, Jason D.
I now have sitting on my desk six modules from an IBM 700 series
mainframe, destined for the Mill at RCS/RI. Of course, six modules does
not make a computer, but I think we should at least try them out, just to
see how badly they perform.
Does anyone here have information on these things (pointing my finger at
Mr. Pierce)? The things are not on circuit boards, so they could be traced
out, but I really do not want to that.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
I've never bothered to go into pawn shops for anything because even the most
worthless junk is way overpriced. for example, one place had two IBM 5155
machines and wanted $179 each! i bought my two for $10 each, and one was
upgraded with a hard drive and expanded to 640k. i've had better luck at
thrift stores and primarily at radio rallies, of which one is coming up next
month. those are the best places to find old interesting stuff, computers or
not.
david
<< What kind of stores are you hitting that you are having such luck?
Today - I stopped into a local pawn shop - a rare place in the suburbs -
and picked up an Atari 520ST and an Atari SF354 disk drive sans cables
and power supplies. My first pawn shop find. I passed on a IIgs they
had, but I was tempted. What I'm really looking for is a IIe.
Mike
>>
lawrence wilkinson:
:But a digital computer can represent rational numbers exactly as you
:have (e.g. Smalltalk has a rational data type which behaves just
:like any other number) but irrational numbers cause problems. But
:then can an analogue machine represent irrational numbers exactly?
probably not, but even if it could, how would you measure it to
verify..? the strength of analogue is that it can vary smoothly, so the
errors are different in character. sometimes digital is preferable.
sometimes analogue is.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk
:>Am I to understand that you don't like SNOBOL? :^)
:What exactly is SNOBOL? The library here has two books on it, I
:have looked at both and couldn't really figure much out.
as perl is to c, so snobol is to fortran.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk
:Very interesting. Please elaborate. My reasons for disliking OOP
:stems from the fact that a Windows app in C++ is much harder to
:understand than one in plain non-oop code. Who started oop anyway?
simula was the first oo language, and it was pretty good (except that
nobody using it realised what they had :> ). the xerox parc team who
developed smalltalk did the real ground-breaking work on object
orientation, and anything they wrote (alan kay, adele goldberg are two
names to look out for) is worth reading.
microsoft have never understood object orientation. and because of this,
they have killed it (seen COM? ugh). it's a very powerful technique, and
you don't necessarily need an oo language to use it. windows was written
in c, designed to be called from c, and not object-oriented in the
least. no wonder things are harder to use from c++. and mfc only makes
things worse. take a look at nextstep sometime, if you can, to see a
better approach.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
spc:
:Well, that's because on the VAX (to bring classic computers into
:this) had an ENQUEUE and DEQUEUE (I think those are the mnemonics)
:instructions which handled double linked lists (of which queues and
:stacks can be built out of).
*sigh* never mind. did anyone ever use the polynomial evaluators, too?
:Why the need for PALcode to do that on the Alpha is a bit odd - all
:you really need is an instruction that does an atomic "test and
:set" to ensure atomicity (hmmm, it could be that instruction they
:added, although it seems strange because DEC Unix supports multiple
:CPUs and you NEED that for multiple CPUs).
test and set can ensure serialisation, but not atomicity. if the os
isn't counting what other processors are accessing its memory, it needs
atomicity because the serialisation won't be listened to. however,
doubly linked lists are one of a class of things that can be tackled
with a two-word compare and swap instruction (as on the 680x0) - see the
synthesis description for actual algorithms, url unknown, sorry - which
makes them atomic. we'll dig out the pages and post the algorithms if
you wish (if they aren't too self-referential).
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
On 1998-03-17 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk
:>> make sure you set the "send mail as text only" property somewhere
:>> obscure in the settings.
:>Doesn't that shut down HTML for ALL mail though? You'd think a
:>person could specify what type messages (easily) to each person
:>individually instead of as a whole.--
:You CAN. The IE bashing is ill-informed. It's a great product.
:However, in specific response to the above, you simply select that
:mail is responded to in the format it was sent. Quite simple and
:obvious.
we road-tested it extensively for work. it isn't a great product, it's
an adequate product, and every version has its own little collection of
bugs. ill-informed? not when the company's future is riding on it. we'll
have to go to ie4 eventually, and it's better than ie3.02, but it is far
>from great.
(however, we'll qualify that. if you use xml, it is great, since it's
the only xml browser readily available. other than that...? use netscape
instead, it may not be in bed with your desktop but hell, ain't that a
benefit...? :> )
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk
:> I HATE object oriented stuff. Hate it, hate it, hate it. At least
:>in C++, Java, and Visual Basic, which have been my only expoures
:>to it.
we disagree. there are several flavors (sic) of object-oriented
programming, and whilst some of them are the invention of a sick and
twisted mind (c++), some of them are just damn fine coffee... ;> visual
basic isn't OO, don't be confused. and strongly typed OO systems should
probably not be used for anything small or prototypical.
however, we'd urge you to take a look at some other object oriented
languages. smalltalk, common lisp, self, oberon, etc. *much* nicer. and
then grab a forth and roll your own :>
:I'be not tried VB, and almost zero Java, but I had to use Ada for
:three years.
oh, someone else. we had to do that, thanks to bradford university's oh
so wonderful degree course. and to think that the oxonians were moaning
about modula-2...
we've used vb and java reasonably extensively. both are far too typed.
vb doesn't even have inheritance, which renders it pretty much useless.
:Ada 95 has a lot of OO features (though you needn't
:use it that way). It is my most unfavourite language. Some of us
:have described Ada as a read-only language (cf. C as a write-only
:language).
not even that. it takes up too much space, and the preferred format
places variable names in capitals, rendering them almost entirely
unreadable. and the OO features are only a glorified type-extension
mechanism - oberon's idea, but done by committee in ada95.
ada is a disgusting language, not because it is verbose or hard to
program, but because it introduces another language - and a vast one at
that - without giving anything *new*; it doesn't give value for money.
size without content.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
max eskin:
:a)If you think about it, a neuron in the brain is very much like an
:AND gate or a transistor. It has multiple inputs and needs a certain
:amount of electricty across them for its single output to go high.
erm, yes, but neurons have to also "learn" what inputs should lead to
one state in their outputs. they can also connect inputs and outputs
as necessary, though we doubt they can reconnect.
and that's assuming that the universe is entirely deterministic and
humans have no souls. we're atheist, but we aren't willing to go there
to stay.
:b)I heard that people are working on computers with transistors so
:small, they would be affected by quantum laws, and thus be analog
transistors are, and always have been, analogue. look inside an old amp
if you doubt this. even mosfets are analogue (they apparently have
distortion characteristics more similar to valves when used in audio
applications - can anyone confirm, express preferences, etc?) - the
switching properties are a handy side-effect. quantum effects make
transistors unreliable, not [more] analogue.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk
:> make sure you set the "send mail as text only" property somewhere
:> obscure in the settings.
:Doesn't that shut down HTML for ALL mail though? You'd think a
:person could specify what type messages (easily) to each person
:individually instead of as a whole.
you would, wouldn't you...? *sigh*
we used ie4 for all of 2 weeks, and during that time killing html mail
entirely was what we wanted. you can, though, turn it on again for
individual *mails* in the properties for that mail, whilst you compose
it. what you can't do is set it at any grain 'twixt the twain.
--
Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling
you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...
David Wollmann <dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com> wrote:
> Why not steer those who can do nntp to alt.folklore.computers? a.f.c
> carries discussions on all aspects of computer history, including many of
> the topics discussed here.
Seconded. I can think of a few recent threads that might make more
sense in a.f.c (or maybe even comp.arch) than here. Oh all right,
I'll be openly opinionated: host names, AI, rational numbers, and
digital vs. analog computing. My opinions only, if you want to flame
me for 'em do it privately.
Lest y'all think I'm suggesting exiling some threads to the
Usenet/alt-net ghetto: I read a.f.c too, and sometimes browse
comp.arch, and would be more inclined to participate in those threads
in a.f.c because I do find them interesting or amusing, I'm just not
sure they're appropriate for this list.
The MIME/HTML vs. plain text e-mail thread is meta-discussion, and its
existence makes me wonder whether the FAQ should include a Q&A on list
e-mail etiquette, or more properly things to do to get your message
read by more people (post as plain text, trim quoted text, format for
display on an 80-column terminal screen).
For that matter, should the FAQ include references to a.f.c and other
Usenet resources?
> Before flaming folk for ignoring the FAQ, make it readily available. Stick
> the FAQ URL at the bottom of every re-mailed message to act as a constant
> reminder.
How about a periodic repost of the FAQ, or parts thereof? Some folks
can do e-mail but can't webulate.
And having said all these things about the FAQ, I'm willing to do some
work on it, like writing updated entries and/or making regular
reposts happen.
-Frank McConnell
>
<> If the problem is fast sneaky pulses, how do I detect this? What's the
<> easiest way and, barring that, what's the most effective way even if it
<> difficult?
<>
<> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
Cheat, lift (bend) the D input pin so it's not in the socket and pull it
up to +5v through a resistor (1k-or most anything). lacking that let it
float unconnected and see what the output does. Guarentees a logic one
in and Q=1 out.
Allison
What kind of stores are you hitting that you are having such luck?
Today - I stopped into a local pawn shop - a rare place in the suburbs -
and picked up an Atari 520ST and an Atari SF354 disk drive sans cables
and power supplies. My first pawn shop find. I passed on a IIgs they
had, but I was tempted. What I'm really looking for is a IIe.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: rigdonj(a)intellistar.net [mailto:MIME @INTERNET
{rigdonj(a)intellistar.net}]
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 7:18 AM
To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Question for the Faq - If there is one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Mike,
I'm in the central Florida area and I've had darned good luck here. In
the last couple of months I have acquired; Altair 8800a, IBM 5100, 2 AT&T
3B2s, AT&T 3B1, 2 Tandy 6000s, a bunch of HPs, and two Commodore Pets,
etc.
I pass up Compaq and KayPro luggables, Timexs, NCRs, and stuff like that
*EVERY* day. Even passed up a DEC last week. If you get down this way,
I'll
give you a tour of some good places to hit.
Joe
At 12:48 PM 3/17/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>If there's no FAQ there probably should be one. I'd start one myself
but
>I'm no where near qualified to do so.
>
>Anyhow, here's something that I'm sure has been asked and probably will
>be asked again - What are the top ten hotspots for finding old
>equipment?
>
>Thanks - Mike
>
>
This message is directed to those individuals who care that this mailing
list has slowly degraded into a usenet newsgroup. The rest of you can
continue to be unconcerned and skip this message.
Its obvious that this mailing list needs an overhaul. Any attempts to
steer it back to its proper course of discussion have been either
ridiculed or ignored.
Again, this goes back to my argument a few weeks back when the noise was
at its loudest, which is that it all boils down to common courtesy and
respect.
In my normal life, I make it a point to break the rules and live against
convention. I can do that without disturbing the rest of my fellow humans
because the impact of my actions doesn't reach very far. Plus I don't
flout convention just to flout convention, thereby inconveniencing others.
However, in this tight-knit community where the slightest ripple builds
into a wave and then a tsunami, it is not appropriate to continually
transcend the intended use of this forum for one's own personal amusement.
When you're in close quarters, you don't fart unless you're an asshole.
The quality of the PEOPLE on this mailing list has declined considerably.
It used to be that Bill screened participants before they were allowed to
join, thereby filtering out the potential riff raff. The community we
used to have, although semi-exclusive, did produce some excellent
discussion material. However, now that Bill has fallen off the face of
the earth and just about anyone with half a brain can join, a good
majority of the discussion at times is off-topic and boorish. The worst
case is the one-line reply to the hundred line quoted message. It used to
be fun to read about classic computers. Now its pretty lame reading about
[insert off-topic shit here].
I think the best approach to this would be to let this stupid mailing list
die out and start an alternate forum. So I'm going to do just that. I'm
beginning work on a web BBS which will have multiple topic areas. It will
be semi-moderated and any inkling of off-topic blather will be expunged
promptly. Better yet, I may even decide to turn it into a classic BBS
running on a classic system (I can resurrect the never finished BBS
software I was writing on my Apple //e). That way, those interested in
joining will have to take some effort to do so, which will eliminate the
casual turd.
I'll let interested parties know when this is completed and ready for
beta. Please e-mail me (need I add "privately"?) with any tips or
suggestions you may have. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Your
criticisms will be answered with fantasticly cruel insults and derision.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
I would think that constructive suggestions would accomplish much more than
flame bait like calling folk "turds".
Suggestions:
Why not steer those who can do nntp to alt.folklore.computers? a.f.c
carries discussions on all aspects of computer history, including many of
the topics discussed here.
Before flaming folk for ignoring the FAQ, make it readily available. Stick
the FAQ URL at the bottom of every re-mailed message to act as a constant
reminder.
Experienced users tend to ignore belligerent posts rather then respond to
them and waste time with pointless arguments. A gentle reminder to read the
FAQ will often suffice.
Finally: moderate, or get off the pot. Have you ever been a member of a
committee without a chairman? Can you say: slugfest?
--
David Wollmann
dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com
Don't forget the above phrase. It CAN'T stand. Make no mistake. Sam,
you've made some mistakes. LETS NOT LOSE ANY MEMBERS OVER THIS. IT'S
IMPORTANT, AT LEAST TO ME. I KNOW THAT I'VE BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM, BUT I
WANT TO BE A GREATER PART OF THE SOLUTION.
Tim D. Hotze
Would it be a) desirable, b) possible to have the remailer append a very
short text to each outgoing message with "Read the faq: <FAQ URL>"?
This is what Red Hat do with their lists, and it's quite handy. Sure some
people ignore it, but it's always there to refer people to--it's in every
message in the list and most folk can just cut 'n paste the URL or
double-click it to refer the FAQ.
--
David Wollmann
dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Foust [SMTP:jfoust@threedee.com]
> Sent: March 18, 1998 10:23 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Irreverence to irrelevance
>
> I've always thought a much more sensible approach is the private
> news server. It allows pruning of unruly threads, either by the
> reader (ignoring off-topic subjects) or by a B.D. who trims
> away junk messages. It allows auto-archiving. It doesn't clog
> mail routes and mail boxes. You can read it with any Usenet news
> reader,
> just point to someone else's server. It would be easy to split
> into .hardware, .software, .culture sub-groups.
>
A private news server is a Bad Thing for those of us sitting at
work with a firewall inbetween ourselves and the net. I do not think I
will have much success convincing the firewall admins to allow news
traffic to go through.
--------------------------------------------
Joachim Thiemann
DSP Coder, Castleton Network Systems
I doubt therefore I might be.
My brother recently purchased a Data General AViiON AV-400 machine at an
auction ($20) It is in a tower case and has 16 MB RAM, 320 MB SCSI hard
drive. He was told by someone at DG that it runs at 20 MHz using a
Motorola 88000 processor.
He was able to get the machine to talk to a PC connected to the com port
and it works and comes up with
DG/UX Bootstrap version 4.3
error, logical partition not found
(or similar wording)
Does this mean:
(a) the SCSI drive is bad
(b) the OS has been deleted
And, if (b) how would he get a version of DG/UX or is there another flavor
of Unix that would run on the machine? There is very little on the net
about these beasts.
Any help appreciated!
- Ron Kneusel
rkneusel(a)mcw.edu
How come MITS used 8800 for the Altair and not 8080?
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
"Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> No, that's not the problem. I can hear the other end howling away
> on the modem's speaker, but the modem doesn't recognize it for some
> reason. I want this thing to work so I could replace my 1200.
This is a Practical Peripherals 2400SA, right? Little white plastic
modem with a sloped front with modem-blinkenlights?
I think this is the kind of modem that taught me that when they label
one jack "line" and the other jack "phone" they may mean it. When I
got it wrong the modem behaved as above: it would go off-hook and dial
but not connect.
Except that they didn't label the jacks on the modem, you had to look
in the manual if you wanted to know which was which. But there's only
two ways to do it, so put the cable that goes to the wall jack in the
*other* modem jack and see if that makes it work.
-Frank McConnell
Now, back to on-topicness...
for those of you that collect IBM family one machines, i've found an
interesting place with pics, info, and other related links. web over to
WWW.CAN.IBM.COM/HELPWARE/VINTAGE.HTML
david
Kudos to Doug Youza for the Classiccmp FAQ at
www.yowza.com/classiccmp/faq.txt I downloaded this and read it last
night. If you care about this List and have any consideration for
those of us who want to talk vintage computer only, PLEASE READ THE
FAQ, especially section 2.8 (check your personal drivel at the door).
I'm a newcomer to the Classiccmp List and have found that with all the
off topic (I hope I haven't been guilty of this, I've certainly tried
to be on topic) postings the List is somewhat like a cow pasture, you
need to watch where you step. I wade through countless inane, insipid
and irrelevant postings. Why?
Let's keep on topic and keep personalities off the list and private.
Abide by section 2.8 and all of us will benefit.
Marty Mintzell
If there's no FAQ there probably should be one. I'd start one myself but
I'm no where near qualified to do so.
Anyhow, here's something that I'm sure has been asked and probably will
be asked again - What are the top ten hotspots for finding old
equipment?
Thanks - Mike
>MS bashing in a MODERN context is off-topic, yes, but saying
how
>BASIC for the Altair was bloated certainly is the best of both
worlds
>IMHO. But to go even further back, was there any IBM-bashing
before
>the 80's?
a 4KB paper tape Basic for the Altair was bloated? Compared to
what, the 2KB Tiny Basic Dr. Dobbs was pushing? At least you
got paper tape for the Altair, the Dr. Dobbs version you had to
type in from very small print in the magazine. And most
important, Bill's 4K Basic worked, did anyone ever get the IMSAI
paper tape Basic to work? (We gave up and threw ours away after
several futile tries)
IBM bashing before PCs? As an old Univac/CDC type I can swear
(with fingers crossed behind back) we never said a single bad
word about OS/360 or the blazing speed of a 360/20, and we
always envied the S/3ers their MFCU and the cute little 96 col.
cards.
Jack Peacock
Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote:
] To be fair, analog computers can do things digital computers can't. For
] example, a digital computer can only approximate 1.0/3.0 whereas an
] analog box has no trouble with this. Certain ops would also be much
Actually, you've got that backwards. Contained in your message above
is a totally accurate digital representation of 1/3. Oh, there it is
again, at the end of that sentence. It is an analog measure of this
that would lack precision.
OBCC: Is there any such thing as a stored-program analog computer?
I guess Babbage's analytic engine would fit that category, but all
of the other analog "computers" that I've heard of (not many) just
performed some fixed calculation. In my book, a stored program with
sequence-control makes the difference between a computer and a
calculator, manufacturer's labelling notwithstanding.
Bill.
The other day someone re-posted section 2.8 of the FAQ and I thought
it might be a good idea to repost sections 1 and 2 in their entirety,
as they address what the list is about and what sorts of traffic are
appropriate.
I didn't write this. Bill Whitson did, and posted it to the list in
early July 1977 (thanks, Bill). All I did was snarf it from
http://www.heydon.org/kevan/classiccmp/1997-07/msg00028.html (thanks,
Kevan).
I have no comment on this. I am merely posting it for the benefit of
those who haven't seen it before, and those who have, but (like me)
didn't have a copy handy and need a refresher to figure out just what
is irritating some folks so.
-Frank McConnell
--- begin included text ---
1.1 What is ClassicCmp?
It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center
on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place
for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions
dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are
often better handled in private e-mail.
1.2 Why is ClassicCmp?
Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it
seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them.
1.3 What is a Classic Computer?
_Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic.
This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to
work OK, so I've kept it.
1.4 Who runs this thing?
That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu.
1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator?
Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond
to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still
probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of
mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd
user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the
messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get
back to you eventually.
1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done.
I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show
me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large
as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously
there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see
a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing
anyway.
1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list?
The daily load varies widely from about 10 messages to over 100. Average
seems to be about 44 messages a day. There are times where the message
load peaks for as much as a week.
[][][][][][][][][]
2.1 What can I talk about?
Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many
people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might
want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a
good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before
posting.
2.2 Can I talk about PCs?
Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be
aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC
newsgroups.
2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes
with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations?
There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for
micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception".
2.4 Can I post advertisements?
Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course,
use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not
you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there
are members of this list in a number of different countries.
2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers?
Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example,
would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on
usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their
machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that
they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to
find yourself a computer.
2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x.
Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't
have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic
electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz
with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking
questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check
the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking
out!" exactly means.
2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question?
It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive
section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below).
2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?!
(Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?)
Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop
any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars.
2.9 Can I post trophy lists?
Ahem. Er... I'm not going to go to the extent of banning this practise
but it is considered bad manners. Don't whine to me because I used to be
guilty of this and curbed myself ;). Post lists of newly acquired goods
if you actually need info on them, not just to show off.
2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts?
Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of
people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now
that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice.
--- end included text ---
Hello folks. I just moved into the SF bay area and found myself
terribly uncomfortable without my trusty pdp11, which I had to leave in
Pennsylvania due to space constraints. I just now subscribed to this
list, so I haven't seen any of the messages lately. My question is:
Are there any pdp11s being offered for sale/free anywhere near oakland,
ca?
thanks for any replies.
jake
>The dos geneology is roughly...
>
>DEC PDP-8 OS/8 (pip, stat, dir)-->
RT-11/RSTS/RSX11-->
> CPM-80-->
> CPM86-->
> dos-1.0-->
>
>The VAX OS line up VMS is off the RSX11 part fo the PDP-11
tree.
>
>DOS was a translation of 8080 CPM-80 to 8086 by seattle
computer. Unix
>has been an influence but largely not that great.
>
>UNIX has it's own tree and there are to say the least many
flavors some
>of which even resemble each other.
>Allison
To add in a bit more....
CP/M comes directly from RT-11 and the RSTS tree. Even the PIP
command (peripheral interchance program) was very similar to the
RT-11 version of PIP. CP/M had a more sophisticated file system
than RT-11, but less sophisticated device drivers.
VMS was not the first virtual memory OS that DEC wrote.
TOPS-20, for the PDP-20 (that was a PDP-10 with virtual memory)
was the first virtual system. TOPS-20 was not the same as
TOPS-10, even the system calls were invoked a different way.
(My first real systems programming job was on a 20/40, a joy to
work on, tho slow by modern standards).
Jack Peacock
Any idea where I might find documentation for Intel PDS-100? Same
place I can find a winning powerball lottery ticket I suppose?
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: INTEL PDS-100
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 3/17/98 12:51 PM
<Marty wrote:
<>
<> I have an Intel PDS-100 Personal Development System but no manuals or
<> information on this unit. It is from 1979-1982 I believe, and has two
<> prom programming boards with it. The unit is the size of a slightly
<> large pc, has a carrying handle with built in monitor, keyboard and
<> two 5 1/4" half height floppy drives.
It was introduced later in the 1983-85 time frame. 1979 would have been
the more expensive and heavy MDS-2xx series.
I believe the native OS was ISIS though it's possible that IRMX was also
available and CPM as well from third parties.
Allison
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From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: INTEL PDS-100
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
I have two one for $30 at Goodwill and one for $15 from scrape dealer. Now
the same Goodwill has sold about 10 more complete with mouse and everything
for $20 each. Good Luck with yours. John
At 04:12 PM 3/17/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I found one for sale with OS and extras, can anyone give me some feedback
>on it? Maybe what a fair price would be?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Aaron
>
>
>
No, that's not the problem. I can hear the other end howling away
on the modem's speaker, but the modem doesn't recognize it for some
reason. I want this thing to work so I could replace my 1200.
>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Subject: Re: PN2400SA
>
>
>
>>I typed AT&F, the modem said OK, but it still ignored the carrier.
>>I even tried ATZ. I looked at its current settings with AT&V, and
>>the ones that I knew were fine. The ones that were not in my AT
>>reference guide (to another modem) were, for example &Qx. But I have
>>a feeling it's something else. Ideas?
>>
>Does this one have separate Line and Phone jacks? Make sure you are
using
>Line and not Phone
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message with no relevant information, and especially having nothing to
do with this mailing list.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
I typed AT&F, the modem said OK, but it still ignored the carrier.
I even tried ATZ. I looked at its current settings with AT&V, and
the ones that I knew were fine. The ones that were not in my AT
reference guide (to another modem) were, for example &Qx. But I have
a feeling it's something else. Ideas?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>I typed AT&F, the modem said OK, but it still ignored the carrier.
>I even tried ATZ. I looked at its current settings with AT&V, and
>the ones that I knew were fine. The ones that were not in my AT
>reference guide (to another modem) were, for example &Qx. But I have
>a feeling it's something else. Ideas?
>
Does this one have separate Line and Phone jacks? Make sure you are using
Line and not Phone
